Westwood & the elusive first major

First topic message reminder :

So, another good challenge from our Lee ends with a Sunday tail off. No issues with it, course was beastly and many other top names did the same. But at 39, are we ever going to see the big W in the major column that Westy deserves?

Monty couldn't do it, and it still irks me. Garcia seems to have fallen by the weigh side in recent years too.

Majors are so competitive now, and as this weekend shows, it is not just the big boys in the mix.

Stars like Donald, Westwood and even Rose are all yet to win one and I worry that as a career develops into it's prime like Westwood’s has, then perhaps they have built up some psychological walls in their own minds.

Darren Clarke should give them all hope, of course, but really hope Westwood can bag one in next couple years.

Which of our top golfers do we think will get there, eventually?

it is a mental thing smithers, but also muscle memory and the fact that its easier to utilise muscle memory when you are relaxed(less pressure) or/and practised in more.

I am not gonna sack my self SR

I just havent been out on the road for the last month - to much work on which = more admin and no need for me to be out there, and offcourse way more time infront of my PC

Anyone wanna discuss "Woods and the elusive fifteenth Major" ?

Nothing I'd love to see more than the two of them tied for the lead after 72 holes at Lytham, not least as I'll be there. Would like to think that the crowd would just about be on Lee's side!

SmithersJones wrote:

incontinentia wrote:According to Haney, swing progression occurs in stages- first you eliminate bad shots on the practice tee, then in practice rounds, then in regular competitive rounds, then in rounds at the Majors. Woods is nearly there but not quite.

But that can only be a mental, not physical difference. Unless he's reverting to a (worse) old swing for majors, which would seem insane. So again would be a mental thing

Yes it is mental, and reflects the different levels of pressure encountered by the player, so at the moment his swing is holding up well for all 4 rounds of a regular tournament but only 2 rounds of the most recent Major due to increased pressure(from what I gather).

I think with the US Open his game plan just went awry a little bit. He was playing on the edge most of the time by taking iron off the tee, leaving a lot of very long approach shots.
The greens and pins got tougher and the approaches became harder and he started to miss a few and lost confidence. Probably should have trusted himself more with 3 wood or even driver.

woods will get that major, maybe 3 more and be one short of jack

mystiroakey wrote:it is a mental thing smithers, but also muscle memory and the fact that its easier to utilise muscle memory when you are relaxed(less pressure) or/and practised in more.

muscle memory is a myth as far as i can tell.

a myth hey lol.

and you play golf and you still believe that?

do you know how a golf swing is developed into a consitant thing(good or bad)

The reason why it can be so hard for many to get out of bad habbits is due to muscle memory from a bad starting point. They muscle memory it into there swings- And that becomes so hard to get out. Sometimes they have to make what seems like massive alterations but that only changes the swing slightly.

But then we dont even have to go that deep just simply learning to walk takes muscle memory

All in the mind Oakey.
There is no evidence for muscle memory or that a swing has to change the 'memory' of muscle, so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist.
It takes a while to get used to different swing mechanics but its nothing to do with muscle memory and all to do with technique. Changing a swing is just changing technique, simple as that.

Does it matter if its specific muscle memory from the tissue or brain memory telling the muscles what to do?- Its still a factor and we call it muscle memory

So why call it muscle memory if its purely down to mental effort?
It just takes a while for the brain to get used to a different techique.

Stupid name for it, and totally misleading in a sports coaching sense.

yeah i see your point thats for sure. But there is a factor that needs to be considered- when changing technique you will go against certain muscles that have been toned to go a certain way. you have to retone those muscles to go a different way or tone up slightly different muscles- therefore i wouldnt call it only mental

Not true, you can pull of swings, shots, etc by pure chance like a beginner hitting a long straight drive, it isnt until your brain can make your body repeat it that the skill is learned.

It's nothing to do with being toned in a different way. Most changes are so small that a muscle change wouldn't make a difference. It's applying what you have to a new technique. Thats it, especially in golf which isn't very physical and is more to do with timing and coordination, a function of the brain, not toned muscle.

I could teach you a technique to be a better chipper in an hour, you cant change muscle that quick.

isnt that the point sr- offcourse you cant change your muscle that quick- thats why it takes so long. golf is very much to do with how your muscles are conditined IMO. I think you really would be suprised. Chipping is offcourse very different but it does play a part.

I could teach you how to play a low chip that has imense backspin with a lobwedge- but it will take you along time to get the muscles and technique upto that the required level to pull that shot off

Oakey, don't be ridiculous. You don't need to develop muscles to play different chip shots, we are humans, not jellyfish. Everyone from a 5 year old to a 100 year old can be good at shipping and putting if they have technique, nothing to do with muscle, its coordination smd judgement based, not muscle based.

Depending on my aptitude for picking up a skill I could learn it in five minutes or a few weeks.

What does happen is that muscle develops differently as a result of a change in technique over a period of months and thousands of repetitions, but most golfers will never out in thst much practice, but you don't necessarily require the muscle like that to have the technique. See what I'm saying?

SR trust me you do need to create muscles to play the shot i am talking about effectively- its all about speed. 99% of golfers cant play that shot, infact maybe more, and that is due to there limitations. To get the required speed to play that shot you need to get better defined muscles that are used in playing the shot

Your last point is only saying what i have said all along. And why a change is harder. Because we have developed muscle memory from playing a certain way allready..

We are getting abit side tracked anyway from the original point- Its immaterial what and how muscle memory works- But it is a factor when changing tecnique

The only key thing to note here is that like anything practise makes perfect, BUT you need to prcatise the correct tecnique from the start or you can create issues that become much harder to fix.

Ha ha, that is hilarious, I would rate my short game as plus three or plus four, and its because I've practiced the technique of getting up and down, know where to put my hands, hue hard to hit it, , visualizing the shot, alignment, feet position, the right club for it,how much to follow through, how steep to come down on the ball that I'm good at it, not that I've developed muscles to play it. I can get up and down from the ball washer because I'm skilled at the technique not because I've developed the muscle that makes me good at it.

I've taught several people who all play it now to some degree of success. It's practice which sets me apart, not muscle related, especially as some have learned it in an afternoon.
What's more is that I no longer have the time to practice even 10% of what I did before but my short game is still as good, because its all technique and mental awareness.

I have taught loads as well SR. My short game is and was also mint. I used to pactise various shots every day of my life.

To play the shot i am talking about requires amazing speed but also a very strong wrist. But this shot isnt gonna help many score b etter- it was just a shot that some can play and was a perfect example of a shot that is at the high level of tecnique combined with strength- a seasoned male tour pro may play it occasionally , but not a female golfer.

Some people just dont have the strength- This is not rocket scoence- its why some people hit the ball longer than others.

I could teach you how to hit a 6 iron well. but you wont hit it 200 yards unless you increase your physicality

PS.

My sholong is bigger than yours an all

so super, are u saying that if u knew the correct technique for a shot, for example the flop shot, that you would be very good at that shot on your first attempt?

Oakey, distance is not a function of strength or how strong you are as well you know, it is all to do with the arc of the swing, swing speed, launch angle, side spin, smash factor, backspin, shot trajectory, shot shape etc.
There is no reason why someone spindly and lightweight, can't hit the ball exactly the same distance as someone who spends their life in a gym building up their strength.
Golf is a game of finesse, , smoothness, timing and coordination, not brute strength.

The best player in the world according to the rankings is Luke Donald, hardly a beefcake, and despite the common perception is actually a medium length driver, but it's his swingspeed that holds his distance back, not his lack of strength.

Incontinentia, Of course I'm not saying I can play a shot straight away or that if you know the technique you can play it straight away, my brain has to get used to executing the shot and getting the timing, etc in the correct place.
Anyone could learn the flop shot, it's not about developing muscles to do it.

I'm merely disagreeing with the ascertion that muscles have "memory" whereas I believe it is practice and the brain getting used to all aspects of the new skill which is the key point.

Oakey's claim that you need to build up certain muscles to be good at his version of the short game is laughable. Anyone in half decent shape, has the physical ability to be good at this aspect of the game, without having to repeat the shot in practice 1000's of times, it is totally technique driven.

Granted, driving etc is more athletically driven, but I still don't believe it's "muscle memory". It's an absurd concept.

P.S I doubt you could teach anyone to hit a 6 iron 200, unless it was downwind, downhill or at altitude.

ALso , if anything, a womens game is more suited to playing good short game shots because there is no machismo involved, or showing off that they have to get the ball in the air. ALthough it does surprise me how few actually are as good as they could be.

Saying you have to have strength for the short game is like saying you need strength to play darts or marbles.

SR strength does very much play a part in length- it is a factor and very much so. There are many other factors offcourse- this is all obvious. But i am shocked that you dismiss muscle tone, strength and athletisim when it comes to length.

I said i couldnt teach you how to hit a 6 iron 200 yards, but i could teach you how to hit one well! that was the point! However get your self down the gym and work on the correct muscles that aid the golf swing and you will get close ,you do obviously have to only work on specific muscles when it comes golf as working on the wrong ones can prove counter productive. You offcourse also need to work on tecnique as well. Good weight transfer and a good coil. but that also requires flexibility. people that put golf and darts together- lols. yeah anyone can play golf and darts. but you can make yourself much better at golf by conditioning the body- it makes no difference in darts

I am also abit suprised by your lack of knowledge of the shot i am talking about in fairness. I am talking about a specific shot. Not short game on the whole. That has been explained umpteen times as well.

There is nothing absurd about muscle memory- its how you interprete the usage of the word. It really is immaterial as to how it works.

One thing many people overlook and fail to see is strengthening the core muscle group of their body. The core muscles are essential to a strong and well balanced golf swing. Strengthening these muscles will add yards to a golf swing without even having to swing a club. The core muscles consist of the lower back, abdominal and oblique muscles. There are many ways to strengthen these areas but with just a basic few exercises, the power of a person's golf swing will greatly increase.

Read More: Best Core Exercises For Golf | GolfLink.com http://www.golflink.com/list_142_best-core-exercises-golf.html#ixzz1zjEEKdjk

greg norman is possibly the best person to listen to though


Generally speaking, golf is a slow-pace sport very different
from fast-movement activities such as basketball, tennis, aerobic dance,
or skiing.The exception to this rule is the explosive action of the
golf swing, which places significant stress on shoulder, elbow, and wrist joints, and produces high torque forces on the low back and hip structures.

Consequently, if you are not strong and fit in these parts, you could experience game-limiting injuries in these and other areas of the body. Although you could increase your hitting power and reduce
you rinjury risk by practicing proper swing mechanics under the
watchful eye of a professional golf instructor, you also could improve
your swing and decrease your potential for injury by performing appropriate stretching and strengthening exercises that produce a flexible and strong
musculoskeletal system. As you achieve higher levels of fitness, you
can generate more power with less effort, thereby producing a smoother
swing with greater club head speed. You will develop more force without
forcing the action, which is essential for long and consistent drives.


http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/fitness/fitness17.php

I'm not dismissing muscle tone as a way of helping, i've always beleived the better shape you are the better chance youll have of being the best you can be. Hence why I'm always first to have a go at fat lardy golfers like Shane Lowry who seem to think golf is all about talent.

I'm just disputing the claim of muscle memory, or muscle having memory if you prefer, as I think the game is largely reliant on technique and coordination, something which comes from training the brain how to execute a shot.

SR- i think you are over analysing the term muscle memory in fairness.

I do see your point tho, it surely is more to do with the brains memory over specific tissue memory

I always find people struggle with the concept of how to play a shot, rather than having the inate ability to execute it.
Once they get over that they are generally pretty good, so I'd agree if you are calling the brain a "muscle" that it's to do with memory, but don't think your actual muscles have it.

i dont think the term 'muscle memory' is supposed to be taken literally. obviously there are no neurons in muscle.

incontinentia wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

incontinentia wrote:In my opinion, players like Lee and Sergio have mental weaknesses which are exposed at the Majors.

Not sure about Sergio but Lee has more top 10 finishes in majors than just about anyone in the last 3 years. Just how do you suggest this mental weakness manifests itself?

Poor course management under pressure (turnberry), last day jitters and so-on

In what way did poor course management cost him Turnberry in '09? I was there and it was more a case of shocking bad luck from where I was standing. The first bounce of his teeshot on 18 was a worse bounce than the one on Watsons approach to the green. Equally unlucky on the par 3 15th....but that's links golf, you cant 2nd guess where you might get bad bounces.

JAS wrote:

incontinentia wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

incontinentia wrote:In my opinion, players like Lee and Sergio have mental weaknesses which are exposed at the Majors.

Not sure about Sergio but Lee has more top 10 finishes in majors than just about anyone in the last 3 years. Just how do you suggest this mental weakness manifests itself?

Poor course management under pressure (turnberry), last day jitters and so-on

In what way did poor course management cost him Turnberry in '09? .

He hit it in the bunker on 18, you don't do that coming down the stretch. He 3 putted the final green after a stupid decision to try and 1 putt from 60 feet, you don't do that either unless you want to come second.

Sr, he didn't know what was about to unfold with Watson, he knew he had to make birdie to make a play off as the leasderboard was as he tee'd off, you can't hope or count on the opposition will ar$e it up and take bogey just so you can play it safe.. How stupid would he have felt? I applaud Westwoods attitude on that hole because he went for it. It didn't come off, bit that's golf.

Fair enough if it was a 20 footer, but from 60 feet its pretty dumb not to lag it up close as the chances of making a 60 footer are next to zero. A lag still has a chance to go in.

Incont

I thought a "lag" by definition finishes short of the hole and therefore has no chance of going in. I'm with S_R on this one. Consider Nick Faldo in the fading light against Scott Hoch - a huge putt that dropped! If he'd three putted, Hoch maybe would have won?

Professionals very rarely lag anything on purpose in strokeplay. Why would you purposely play a shot that you know is going to miss? You should aim to hole everything, amd even if you do miss then you have to be confident you'll hole the one back. It's why a pro rarely three putt, but us hackers do regularly. The whole dust bin lid target circumference thing is a waste of time.

Practice holing putts, don't practice missing them.

Don't know but I always thought a lag was trying to get it as close to the hole as possible, dead weight speed.

Here's a definition from the web: Definition: A "lag putt" is a long putt which, because of its length, the golfer does not expect to make but hopes to get close to the cup. If it goes in the hole, great! But if it doesn't, you want to make sure you are left with a short, manageable second putt that you won't miss. A good lag putt positions the golfer to have a simple and easily makeable follow-up putt, thereby avoiding a 3-putt.

Super, that in my view is silly. Golf is a percentages game, so on long putts that you have no chance to make it makes sense that your main concern should be to avoid a 3 putt.

There is just as much putt as leaving your "lag" putt way too short and risking a three putt as there is of aiming to hole it and racing it too far past and risking a three putt, but only one of them has a chance of going in.

If you worry about three putting, it is more likely to make a three putt happen.
If you aim to hole everything and don't worry about missing, you are more likely to hole more putts.

Here is an interesting, and detailed article on the matter http://puttingzone.com/MyTips/lag.html

There are merits to both strategies but statistically, lag putting is a wiser option on putts over 20 feet, especially for the handicap golfer.

you cant lag that putt- however - he still should never have missed the one back. or not hit the first so hard- he did still missjudge the putts- But i do applaud the attitude

Yes I suppose he had to make sure it went past the hole, fair play to him for going for the win.

Just think these hiccups at important moments are what seperate the champions from the nearly-men. Still think Lee and Sergio have some sort of confidence issue, especially Sergio.

One size (or way) certainly does not fit all. Two tips I've heard that have always stuck with me ... top golfers worry less about the line on longer putts, but are incredibly sensitive about the speed. Also, all putts are straight, the green will move them one way or the other -- so try and flush every effort.

Looking like back to back missed cuts in the Open for him. Not going to happen now, I fear.

he is not out of this yet!

Poor Lee Westwood, he just was not born with the natural ability to play good golf at the Open.

Maureen Madill is a dire old boot.

That is all.

mystiroakey wrote:he is not out of this yet!

At 9 back and the amount of top players at the top of the board i would say he definetely is.

nah not at the open