Westwood & the elusive first major

by **Seanusarrilius** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 3:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

So, another good challenge from our Lee ends with a Sunday tail off. No issues with it, course was beastly and many other top names did the same. But at 39, are we ever going to see the big W in the major column that Westy deserves?

Monty couldn't do it, and it still irks me. Garcia seems to have fallen by the weigh side in recent years too.

Majors are so competitive now, and as this weekend shows, it is not just the big boys in the mix.

Stars like Donald, Westwood and even Rose are all yet to win one and I worry that as a career develops into it's prime like Westwood’s has, then perhaps they have built up some psychological walls in their own minds.

Darren Clarke should give them all hope, of course, but really hope Westwood can bag one in next couple years.

Which of our top golfers do we think will get there, eventually?

by mystiroakey Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:47 pm

It was SR guys.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:54 pm

For the record, no-one's been banned. There was a complaint about two, specific, posts and on balance I thought it was warranted so I archived them (and one other which was then massively out of sync).

by Diggers Wed 20 Jun 2012, 2:01 pm

But SR isnt articulate and logical, he's bitter and repetitive. This is all very confusing......

by hend085 Wed 20 Jun 2012, 2:07 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
McLaren wrote:detones

It is hard to believe you are referring to anyone other than me, but it was not I who made those comments!

And it certainly isn’t super.

funniest thing i have heard in a long time!

by Bob_the_Job Wed 20 Jun 2012, 2:21 pm

McLaren wrote:No one has been banned, we are just trying to work out who the articulate and logical poster is.

The comments they made had to be removed.

On here? Articulate? Logical? Good luck with that! Shocked

by super_realist Wed 20 Jun 2012, 2:57 pm

Bloody hell, what a carry on.

by mystiroakey Wed 20 Jun 2012, 2:58 pm

lol- it is abit. Naughty SR censored

by super_realist Wed 20 Jun 2012, 3:03 pm

I only admit to the bomb planting bit, not the rest, even though I found it funny. Over-reaction or what though.

by Skydriver Thu 21 Jun 2012, 5:30 pm

Skydriver wrote:Not entirely sure why this thread is quiet, but I'd guess that people are a bit tired of debating the topic - rather like Mayweather v Pacquiao perhaps.

Odd that I should have mentioned a couple of certain boxers on the golf board recently, with coincidental timing to this story appearing - naming them alongside Tiger Woods (comparing the $zillions they all earn). A bit spooky.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/18504482

by GunsGerms Tue 03 Jul 2012, 9:02 am

Not a Westwood fan, great golfer but he seems fairly smug. Justin Rose is my favourite English golfer. Always interesting, engaging and articulate in interviews. Paul casey and Luke Donald seem quite grounded too.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:12 am

Ok I like casey a lot- but i dont think its fair to call westy smug and casey grounded

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:59 am

I don't think smug is a word I'd associate with Westwood. Casey was certainly grounded when he hit the floor after coming off his snowboard not so long ago...

by Skydriver Tue 03 Jul 2012, 11:34 am

Perception is an odd thing. I was under the impression that most observers see Lee W as very down-to-earth, and am sure I've heard some comments interpreting Justin R's confidence/strut as arrogance/smugness.

Horses for courses I suppose... which tempts me to contradict myself by pointing out that down-to-earth folks don't generally own race horses...

by GunsGerms Tue 03 Jul 2012, 12:02 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Ok I like casey a lot- but i dont think its fair to call westy smug and casey grounded

Maybe but I suppose we all have our favourites. To qualify my comment I reckon I would be quite smug if I could play like Westwood. The fact that some major winning golfers like Els, Harrington and Clarke etc. are so down to earth is pretty impressive.

I'd say I'd be more like Mcilroy, bordering on cocky.

by GunsGerms Tue 03 Jul 2012, 12:06 pm

Skydriver wrote:Perception is an odd thing. I was under the impression that most observers see Lee W as very down-to-earth, and am sure I've heard some comments interpreting Justin R's confidence/strut as arrogance/smugness.

Horses for courses I suppose... which tempts me to contradict myself by pointing out that down-to-earth folks don't generally own race horses...

You're not wrong. Perception.

by Thomond Tue 03 Jul 2012, 12:12 pm

I wouldn't follow any English golfer really, mainly because they're English!

Don't mind Poulter's style of play, and I begrudgingly admire Donald.

by GunsGerms Tue 03 Jul 2012, 12:33 pm

For a second I thought you were saying you like Poulers style.

Donald is a hybrid. Half Scottish half English lived in the us for 15 years or something.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 3:04 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:Ok I like casey a lot- but i dont think its fair to call westy smug and casey grounded

Maybe but I suppose we all have our favourites. To qualify my comment I reckon I would be quite smug if I could play like Westwood. The fact that some major winning golfers like Els, Harrington and Clarke etc. are so down to earth is pretty impressive.

I'd say I'd be more like Mcilroy, bordering on cocky.

I wouldnt call poddy grounded at all. In fairness i think hes abit nuts(but thats my perecption i suppose)

Westy gets asked alot of leading questions. He is allways asked the when will you? question. He can spot it a mile of and its allways in his train of thought. Its very easy to seem chilled when you have quantified your abilty(like many major winners have)

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 3:05 pm

GG by the way i perosnally love poulters style!!

I suppose someone has to!

yeah he gives it, and yeah he isnt the most talented(long game anyway- his short game is right up there)

But he does seem to allways give it 100%- never see that give up like we see with mcilroy of garcia.

but no donald is english... Your train of thought is like calling murray a mix of english, scottish and spainish thumbsup

by incontinentia Tue 03 Jul 2012, 3:44 pm

"Westwood will never win a Major".

Discuss...

by GunsGerms Tue 03 Jul 2012, 3:44 pm

I know Donald is English all I'm saying is he has other influences.

Poulter certainly is idiosyncratic and I suppose golf needs characters like Stewart (RIP), Poulter and Daly.

Harrington certainly isn't as bonkers as those guys. The last two anyway.

I completely agree with you on the point that the media does ask Westwood the same "leading" questions all the time. I guess that's part of the reason I don't want him to win a major due to the frenzy it would create.

by SmithersJones Tue 03 Jul 2012, 3:53 pm

incontinentia wrote:"Westwood will never win a Major".

Discuss...

Don't really want to but;

Even if he doesn't, Rich Beem's won one, and Andy North won 2. Are they better golfers than Westwood? No, so it's a completely moot point that people get far too hung up on.

McIlroy's won 1, GMac's won 1. Is he as good as Rors? Is YE Yang?

There are too many obscure players that have won a major to make winning a major any sort of measure of a really good golfer. Orders of merit/money lists are probably a better measure of a player against his peers. By that token Westwood is a great player in Europe, and perhaps next year we'll get to see just how good he is in the context of the US tour. Donald is by the same token a great player on a world stage, and a worthy world no. 1. And he has how many majors?

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:01 pm

incontinentia wrote:"Westwood will never win a Major".

Discuss...

Let's wait until his career is done with.

by incontinentia Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:16 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
incontinentia wrote:"Westwood will never win a Major".

Discuss...
Let's wait until his career is done with.

But that statement will be irrelevant when his career's over.

I don't think he will, and I think the main reason is that he often has a bad attitude. He loves complaining and because of this is often beaten before he steps on the course. example: 08 US Open he complains about the rough being brushed back towards the tee- SUCK IT UP!! it's the same for everyone and your the best driver in the game! he should have been happy about that. complaining about fans abusing him, the level of cynicism in his interviews, this "poor me" outlook is not conducive to winning.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:26 pm

incontinentia wrote:...complaining about fans abusing him, the level of cynicism in his interviews, this "poor me" outlook is not conducive to winning.

Eh? That's not the player I see. You dislike him. Fair enough.

by incontinentia Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:54 pm

I don't dislike him but it's fairly clear his mentality is not where it should be.

by Diggers Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:55 pm

I think he has definitley got a bit chippy about the whole major thing.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:56 pm

incontentia some players need abit of luck to win a major- there is no reason why that luck couldnt have fallen on him. He is not overly bigged up- he is a truely great modern day player. But it is obviously gonna get to him. At least he is up there in every major. Donald on the other hand has a mental block. He messes up every first round possible!

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:58 pm

Diggers wrote:I think he has definitley got a bit chippy about the whole major thing.

Wouldn't you (I know I would) if the same dumbass media types keep dredging up the same stupid question at press dos? In some ways I can see why Woods is a poker-faced and monosyllabic most of the time in the face of that crowd.

by Diggers Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:59 pm

I wouldnt call him a truly great player personally. Id call him a nearly great player.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:00 pm

well i made sure i added modern in that. He is one of the greatest today. But to become a great in the eyes of the history books he needs a few majors

by Diggers Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:01 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:I think he has definitley got a bit chippy about the whole major thing.
Wouldn't you (I know I would) if the same dumbass media types keep dredging up the same stupid question at press dos? In some ways I can see why Woods is a poker-faced and monosyllabic most of the time in the face of that crowd.

Id like to think Id be happy with the squidillions of cash and doing somethjing I loved. He talks about the majors unprompted in loads of interviews so he cant really get the hump when asked questions about them IMO.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:02 pm

Diggers wrote:I wouldnt call him a truly great player personally. Id call him a nearly great player.

Much as I like him I'd tend to agree. "Great" is an adjective that's massively over-used these days.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:02 pm

Maybe he knows its coming Diggers, its getting to him. And i think thats only natural

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:03 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:I wouldnt call him a truly great player personally. Id call him a nearly great player.
Much as I like him I'd tend to agree. "Great" is an adjective that's massively over-used these days.

lol better than overrated or world class in my mind thumbsup

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:04 pm

Diggers wrote:Id like to think Id be happy with the squidillions of cash and doing somethjing I loved. He talks about the majors unprompted in loads of interviews so he cant really get the hump when asked questions about them IMO.

Yes, but he wants to win and he also knows that when people look back at a player's career the Majors play a big part in how they're perceived. I don't suppose he minds talking about Majors but that's a bit different to the banal questions about when he's going to win one. Maybe he should ask them why they haven't all won Pullitzers.

by GunsGerms Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:04 pm

SmithersJones wrote:
incontinentia wrote:"Westwood will never win a Major".

Discuss...

Don't really want to but;

Even if he doesn't, Rich Beem's won one, and Andy North won 2. Are they better golfers than Westwood? No, so it's a completely moot point that people get far too hung up on.

McIlroy's won 1, GMac's won 1. Is he as good as Rors? Is YE Yang?

There are too many obscure players that have won a major to make winning a major any sort of measure of a really good golfer. Orders of merit/money lists are probably a better measure of a player against his peers. By that token Westwood is a great player in Europe, and perhaps next year we'll get to see just how good he is in the context of the US tour. Donald is by the same token a great player on a world stage, and a worthy world no. 1. And he has how many majors?

I disagree. Granted there are a few exceptions like Ben Curtis and rich beem who have only a few career wins but for the most part I think you would agree that winning a major requires certain strengths not needed to the same extent in normal tour events:

Dealing with extra pressure
Mental strength etc.

Golfers make their money by winning an being consistent on tour events but they they earn legendary status by winning majors. Monty, Westwood and Garcia etc. will never be legends if the don't win majors. Sad but true.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:04 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:I wouldnt call him a truly great player personally. Id call him a nearly great player.
Much as I like him I'd tend to agree. "Great" is an adjective that's massively over-used these days.

lol better than overrated or world class in my mind

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:05 pm

GunsGerms wrote:...Golfers make their money by winning an being consistent on tour events but they they earn legendary status by winning majors. Monty, Westwood and Garcia etc. will never be legends if the don't win majors. Sad but true.

Very well put methinks.

by Diggers Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:09 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Id like to think Id be happy with the squidillions of cash and doing somethjing I loved. He talks about the majors unprompted in loads of interviews so he cant really get the hump when asked questions about them IMO.
Yes, but he wants to win and he also knows that when people look back at a player's career the Majors play a big part in how they're perceived. I don't suppose he minds talking about Majors but that's a bit different to the banal questions about when he's going to win one. Maybe he should ask them why they haven't all won Pullitzers.

I doubt he has even heard of the Pulitzer prize to be honest.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:10 pm

I think you'd be wrong there Digs.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:12 pm

its all about the majors, we all know that

but it is actually much harder to be the no.1 golfer.

There are only two golfers that have ever become World no.1s with no majors and guess who there are!!

I know poddy has won 3 majors and i know gmac has won one- and i dont wanna bash the irish at all. BUt if westy wins one or two he will be classed as a great golfer, just like norman is classed as a great golfer even though he only won 2 of em.

Westy needs a couple to write his name down. But he will be remembered alot longer than other players that have won a couple if he does, because he truely is a top level golfer IMO..

by Diggers Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:18 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:I think you'd be wrong there Digs.

I dont think so, Im trying to remember what book it was where the guy played with Westwood as a kid for the Nottinghamshire side..think it was Bring Me the Head of Sergio Garcia.......anyway he met up with him and really said he hadnt changed much. Not intellectual as a kid and a Sun reader kind of guy as a bloke.
I dont think he is thick, far from it, but I dont think he is any kind of well rounded intellectual either. In many ways a fairly typical sportsman to be honest.

by Thomond Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:25 pm

I think GG sums it up well. Not all major winners are greats but to be considered a great you have to win one.

by SmithersJones Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:37 pm

I doubt anyone could put up an argument that would convince me Monty wasn't a great player.

Larry Mize, Rich Beem, Ben Curtis, Andy North, Yang, Todd Hamilton, Calc, Bob Tway, etc etc you certainly could.

by Diggers Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:40 pm

I dont think anyone could convince me Monty was a great player. Completely agree the others you mention arent though.

by SmithersJones Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:42 pm

Diggers wrote:I dont think anyone could convince me Monty was a great player. Completely agree the others you mention aren't though.

If 8 orders of merit and one of the best ever RC records don't make a player great, you're very narrow in your definition. Presumably majors are a pre-requisite, if so how many?

by Diggers Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:48 pm

European Tour very much second rate to the PGA. No PGA wins apart from some convoluted Matchplay thing. No WGC's. Its not just the majors that are missing from his CV, far from it.
Surely to be a great you have to at least once beat a field that includes all the best players in the world ? How many WGC's and majors did Monty play and not manage that ?
I dont think my definition is narrow, I think yours is too broad.

by SmithersJones Tue 03 Jul 2012, 6:07 pm

Leaving aside the relative merits of the two tours (but if our best beat their best more often than not at the RC then draw your own conclusions about that, at least at the top of the piles) the WGCs gained their current recognition in 1999, 10 years after Monty's first ET win. He won the Andersen Consulting World Championship in '97. He can't win if he's not playing, so that explains the lack of PGAT wins.

So many people think that Woods is the standard to judge players by in this day and age, including apparently you. He's not just great, he's (been) unbelievably brilliant. Either there's room for great players without 14 majors and 16 WGCs or there's just Tiger and everyone else is gash. You can't have it both ways.

by Shotrock Tue 03 Jul 2012, 6:08 pm

One thing is for sure ... if you get to be as accomplished as Sergio, Luke, Lee, Steve Stricker and you are on the other side of 30 ... the goal of winning a major is surely front and center in your career objectives. Then, the added pressure mounts.

None of them have conquered it yet ... but I could see Lee and/or Luke doing it yet this year. And, if they do, I guarantee it will be the highlight of their (already accomplished) career.

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