SA vs England 3rd test: Build up, announcements and match thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

England

A Goode; C Ashton, J Joseph, M Tuilagi, B Foden; T Flood, D Care; A Corbisiero, D Hartley (capt), D Cole, T Palmer, G Parling, T Johnson, J Haskell, T Waldrom.

Replacements : L Mears, J Marler, M Botha, P Dowson, L Dickson, O Farrell, B Barritt.


Lancaster said: “I am really pleased for Alex [Goode]. He has worked hard in training and has been pushing Mike Brown and Ben Foden close so we are looking forward to him bringing his footballing skills to this Test. Danny Care likewise has bided his time in a very competitive position, knuckled down and deserves his chance, as has James Haskell, who has played this season for the Highlanders at No 7.

“We felt that the pack got some momentum in the second half last week so we have gone for Alex [Corbisiero] and Tom [Palmer], but I am sure Joe Marler and Mo Botha can make an impact from the bench.

“The guys did the shirt proud in Potchefstroom on Tuesday and I have no doubt that the 22 involved on Saturday will rise to this final challenge as we look to end this almost 12-month season on a high.”



South Africa

Gio Aplon, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers, Wynand Olivier, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard; Tendai Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Juandre Kruger, Marcell Coetzee, Jaques Potgieter, Pierre Spies

Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Ryan Kankowski, Ruan Pienaar, Elton Jantjies, Bjorn Basson


Looking at this team it loses a lot of physicality.

Comparing a first choice backrow of Schalk Burger, Juan smith and Willem Alberts to Jaque Potgieter, Marcell Coetzee and Pierre Spies it is clear that South Africa will have to play wider and take less contact in the ruck situation, if not England will easily be able to dominate the contest at the breakdown.

Looking at the midfield combination of Frans Steyn and Jean de Villiers compared to Wynand Olivier and Jean de Villiers it will be far inferior due to no creativity at all between the two midfielders, but also no kicking out of hand and defensively Olivier is weak.

Aplon at the back does add some creativity at 15, yet even though he is as gutsy as hell at 75 kg, he will be targeted by big runners.

All in all this will be a litmus test for this Bok team. One I sincerely hope they pass.

Problem is looking at the players out of this match be it injuries weddings etc. not having Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Willem Alberts, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Frans Steyn and Patrick Lambie makes this a decidedly easier test for England.

[Triangulation]

My only real problem with Lancaster so far, but I think it is a big one, is that all of his benches have been awful. And then he proceeds to bring all the players on anyway, even though they are not game-changers.

Ok i am going to speculate now and possibly horribly unfairly....

Is it a possible character flaw of Lancaster revealing itself here....i.e is he due to a certain blindness/vanity..... believing his own hype too much re this whole "creating the perfect environment" thing. Or is it overdone loyalty to players ala MJ?

Why does he keep selecting players who we all know are neither good enough nor game changers?

[Rugby Uberlord]

Triangulation, read what was asked, read my answer, if that doesn't make sense to you have a think.

That is all.

[Biltong]

Well if that is all.


Then do we now stop the debate?

[Rugby Uberlord]

I was stating an example of the bok's previous attitude re 3rd tests (regardless of opposition) once the series was won in an attempt to explain why the boks may say the 3rd test is unimportant.

Is that illogical?

[Biltong]

Ah well, we had such anice debate going until someone pulled his calves tight.

[hugehandoff]

I have no issue with SL trying players out at international level to see if they have what it takes to succeed. But if it does not work out then he needs to be ruthless and drop them. Dowson was a player that many said deserved a go.....well has had a go and has not impressed (not rubbish, but not impressed). Therefore, move on to someone else and that means not having him on the subs bench. Same for Mears.

[Triangulation]

Triangulation, read what was asked, read my answer, if that doesn't make sense to you have a think.

That is all.

Rugby Uberlord. I see. Please accept my apologies for my misunderstanding.

Biltong

NO! The debate must go on but i am conscious that i am hogging space. So i sign off - with this ......

David Cameron and Jacob Zuma have made a wager on this match : the winning side and members of the respective governments and 606v2 posters from either side will be granted Supreme and Ancient Rights of Prima Nocte over the losers.

To the victors go the spoils!

Huzzah!

Out.

[Biltong]

Triangulation, read what was asked, read my answer, if that doesn't make sense to you have a think.

That is all.

Rugby Uberlord. I see. Please accept my apologies for my misunderstanding.

Biltong

NO! The debate must go on but i am conscious that i am hogging space. So i sign off - with this ......

David Cameron and Jacob Zuma have made a wager on this match : the winning side and members of the respective governments and 606v2 posters from either side will be granted Supreme and Ancient Rights of Prima Nocte over the losers.

To the victors go the spoils!

Huzzah!

Out.

I suppose we better win then, eh?

[Chjw131]

My only real problem with Lancaster so far, but I think it is a big one, is that all of his benches have been awful. And then he proceeds to bring all the players on anyway, even though they are not game-changers.

Ok i am going to speculate now and possibly horribly unfairly....

Is it a possible character flaw of Lancaster revealing itself here....i.e is he due to a certain blindness/vanity..... believing his own hype too much re this whole "creating the perfect environment" thing. Or is it overdone loyalty to players ala MJ?

Why does he keep selecting players who we all know are neither good enough nor game changers?

It's a legacy from the days of being a Saxon coach. I said a while ago that I thought his inability to give proper consideration to the impact of the bench in a test match stems from the lack of need to do so in a Saxons set-up. There it's simply a case of finding players to give opportunities to and seeing how they perform individually. On the test scene a holistic view is required. One that adds impetus to the team and game plan.

[Biltong]

Guys, tick your poll option in the OP.

[Triangulation]

My only real problem with Lancaster so far, but I think it is a big one, is that all of his benches have been awful. And then he proceeds to bring all the players on anyway, even though they are not game-changers.

Ok i am going to speculate now and possibly horribly unfairly....

Is it a possible character flaw of Lancaster revealing itself here....i.e is he due to a certain blindness/vanity..... believing his own hype too much re this whole "creating the perfect environment" thing. Or is it overdone loyalty to players ala MJ?

Why does he keep selecting players who we all know are neither good enough nor game changers?

It's a legacy from the days of being a Saxon coach. I said a while ago that I thought his inability to give proper consideration to the impact of the bench in a test match stems from the lack of need to do so in a Saxons set-up. There it's simply a case of finding players to give opportunities to and seeing how they perform individually. On the test scene a holistic view is required. One that adds impetus to the team and game plan.

This is a very plausible is somewhat unsatisfactory hypothesis.

We can all sit here and name better benches than Lancaster without (for most of us i am assuming) having had any test level coaching experience. So why can't he?

[screamingaddabs]

This is a very plausible is somewhat unsatisfactory hypothesis.

We can all sit here and name better benches than Lancaster without (for most of us i am assuming) having had any test level coaching experience. So why can't he?

Well maybe he is looking for something else from his bench.


16. L Mears 17. J marler 18. M Botha 19. P Dowson 20. L Dickson 21. O Farrell 22. B Barritt

We are assuming impact subs should be used BUT, what if we are say 6 points up with 20 minutes to go? Do you want T Youngs throwing the ball in on a lineout on our own line? Would you not fancy having Barritt in your defensive line? If Flood has knackered himself getting you a 6 point lead, who better to make it a possible 9 lead than Farrell?

The one thing about this bench is that there isn't anyone on it who is prone to howlers (except maybe Mears, but actually he doesn't do howlers, he's just not very good). If we are 6 points in the lead then this is a very nice bench to have.

I'm not saying it would be my bench, I'm just putting the argument out there.

[Triangulation]

This is a very plausible is somewhat unsatisfactory hypothesis.

We can all sit here and name better benches than Lancaster without (for most of us i am assuming) having had any test level coaching experience. So why can't he?

Well maybe he is looking for something else from his bench.


16. L Mears 17. J marler 18. M Botha 19. P Dowson 20. L Dickson 21. O Farrell 22. B Barritt

We are assuming impact subs should be used BUT, what if we are say 6 points up with 20 minutes to go? Do you want T Youngs throwing the ball in on a lineout on our own line? Would you not fancy having Barritt in your defensive line? If Flood has knackered himself getting you a 6 point lead, who better to make it a possible 9 lead than Farrell?

The one thing about this bench is that there isn't anyone on it who is prone to howlers (except maybe Mears, but actually he doesn't do howlers, he's just not very good). If we are 6 points in the lead then this is a very nice bench to have.

I'm not saying it would be my bench, I'm just putting the argument out there.

Yes that has been identified by me and others as the most likely explanation but even allowing for the optimistic scenario you presumably could still do better. The bench is traditionally emptied at 65 minute mark. Far too soon to switch into a defensive holding operation unless your lead is HUGE. It must have a detrimental effect on the whole side's outlook.

I think if you are ahead sure you don’t need howlers and you might want to play territory a bit more but you need to keep attacking. You need to keep the other side down, on the back foot, thinking about stopping you so they cannot begin to think about putting scores on you. Dowson, Mears, Barrit+Farrell, Botha - well im just not sure that is possible with these cattle.

But it is done and we shall see.

[Chjw131]

This is a very plausible is somewhat unsatisfactory hypothesis.

We can all sit here and name better benches than Lancaster without (for most of us i am assuming) having had any test level coaching experience. So why can't he?

Well maybe he is looking for something else from his bench.


16. L Mears 17. J marler 18. M Botha 19. P Dowson 20. L Dickson 21. O Farrell 22. B Barritt

We are assuming impact subs should be used BUT, what if we are say 6 points up with 20 minutes to go? Do you want T Youngs throwing the ball in on a lineout on our own line? Would you not fancy having Barritt in your defensive line? If Flood has knackered himself getting you a 6 point lead, who better to make it a possible 9 lead than Farrell?

The one thing about this bench is that there isn't anyone on it who is prone to howlers (except maybe Mears, but actually he doesn't do howlers, he's just not very good). If we are 6 points in the lead then this is a very nice bench to have.

I'm not saying it would be my bench, I'm just putting the argument out there.

It's a perfectly rational explanation of the bench, I agree. As Tri points out though the theory has flaws, and not only does it have flaws from a tactical point of view, but also in execution.

Sure bringing Barritt on for Joseph will steady the defensive line, but apart from that it falls down on it's own tactical approach. Mears, whilst generally good throwing significantly weakens the scrummage and defence around the park. Marler is prone to defensive problems and remains only steadt at present in the scrum. Dowson is an intelligent player, but no substitute for Waldrom or Morgan and certainly isn't going to stand up and make a bone crunching tackle when the backs are to the wall with the Boks hunting down a 6/9 point gap. Dickson is passable and will frustrate the opposition!

As far as Farrell goes he's been steady in the 6N, but I would question his value as a sub at present. His confidence will clearly be low, he's had a long couple of seasons and he looks jaded. I don't know if i'd trust his kicking over Flood's at the moment, which has been excellent. Barritt for me is the only one who'll execute the supposed bench game plan 100%

[screamingaddabs]

Chjw131 and Tri, as I say, it wouldn't be my bench...

[Chjw131]

Point taken. Just discussing the relative merits of Bomber's approach. I like the fact he's changed things around, and I can see that he's trying to get some reward structures in place for playing well, but he must remember time is limited for too much experimentation.

[Triangulation]

In the optimistic hypothetical put forward the best thing to do tactically is to play keepey ball for as long as possible in their half and either force penalties, take drop goals or score tries.

Can Mears, Botha, Dowson, Barrit, Farrell and Marler execute this? Can they play keepey ball in the other side's half?

[screamingaddabs]

In the optimistic hypothetical put forward the best thing to do tactically is to play keepey ball for as long as possible in their half and either force penalties, take drop goals or score tries.

Can Mears, Botha, Dowson, Barrit, Farrell and Marler execute this? Can they play keepey ball in the other side's half?

To an extent, yes they can.

Mears throws well, Botha - well, you'd want more of a bruiser but he's the only one with more than 1 cap isn't he?, Dowson is a good controlling back row forward, Barritt is defence personified and can kick out of hand, farrell is known for his kicking and tackling. Marler is less of a sure choice for this tactic, but who else have they got?

Again - I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here.

[Geordie]

I see Jamie George's name has reappeared. In an interview on Sky he said he'd spoken to Lancaster around the time of the Saxons games and was told he wouldn't be considered until he has at least second choice at Sarries and that he needed more game time. Unless Sarries change their policy significantly on last season (Knees is suggesting they will) then George just won't have enough time to get into the AIs team. It'll be a big season for him Tom Youngs and Webber as they all battle to take control of the number 2 shirt at their clubs past more experienced hookers.

Expected AIs team (players in brackets are my preferred option):

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha (Attwood or Garvey)
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan (Crane)
9.Youngs
10.Farrell (Flood - I sense that Farrell Snr will be in the coaching team and promoting his son again)
11.Foden
12.Barritt
13.Manu
14.Ashton
15.Brown

Bench: Marler, Webber (T Youngs), PDJ, Palmer (Launchbury), Dowson (Wood), Dickson (Care), Flood (Goode with Flood starting), Joseph.

Dont forget Lindsay...if he can get sorted with his bloomin lineout...he's already first choice for his club..with a very strong season under his belt. Big powerful hooker...Bismark style...

[andyi]

Suggest the 45% of posters predicting an England Win get down the bookies:
http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/international-matches/south-africa-v-england/winner
Value at 4/1 in a two horse race.

However, a warning to you all. Ive never met a skint bookie

[DaveM]

People are very critical of SL's benches, but England have finished the last two tests strongly, so maybe he isn't getting that aspect as wrong as some think?

I think the side he has picked for this Saturday is the best that could be picked from the fit players in the squad. Please to see the Tuilagi/Joseph experiment continues, that Care and Flood will pair up, that Strettle is dropped, and Goode is getting a start. It'll be interesting to look at Haskell at 7.

[DaveM]

Expected AIs team (players in brackets are my preferred option):

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha (Attwood or Garvey)
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan (Crane)
9.Youngs
10.Farrell (Flood - I sense that Farrell Snr will be in the coaching team and promoting his son again)
11.Foden
12.Barritt
13.Manu
14.Ashton
15.Brown

Bench: Marler, Webber (T Youngs), PDJ, Palmer (Launchbury), Dowson (Wood), Dickson (Care), Flood (Goode with Flood starting), Joseph.

Might need revising after this Test, put I'd expect:

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan
9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Foden
12.Tuilagi
13.Joseph
14.Ashton
15.Brown

I think this is potentially a decent side.

I do wonder if May might not be fast tracked if he starts the season well for Gloucester. I really don't want to see Barritt and Tuilagi as the centres, England will never have any fluency with that combination.

[niwatts]

I have no issue with SL trying players out at international level to see if they have what it takes to succeed. But if it does not work out then he needs to be ruthless and drop them. Dowson was a player that many said deserved a go.....well has had a go and has not impressed (not rubbish, but not impressed). Therefore, move on to someone else and that means not having him on the subs bench. Same for Mears.

I would say that Lancaster's approach to dropping players from the starting XV hasn't been far off the right course. He's given new players opportunities and a couple of bites to make a case, if they didn't show some signs they've been dropped. Players who have done a decent job are allowed an opportunity to progress and a game or two not at their best, but then again get dropped beyond that.

For example, Marler got near enough a full first game, the second he got 50 mins and for the third he drops behind Corbisero. Dowson started the first 2 games of the 6N, but blooding Morgan from the bench he looked better at 8, so Dowson dropped out. With promising elements from Morgan in the 6N he was given 2 opportunities to further his case in SA, he didn't, so has been dropped for the third test. With Flood out for the beginning of the 6N Farrell was backed and acquitted himself well in a number of areas but needed to develop in others, he stood us in good stead over the 6N so was persisted with up to the first SA test, still lacking however, he was dropped for Flood for the second and third.

Like the majority, I've not been mad about Lancaster's benches and believe he is holding on to players too long there. In the case of Dowson however, what are the other options? Morgan has had a couple of good runs per match but hasn't offered much in other areas of play and only covers 8, not a great bench option. Fearns had a good 1/2 - 2/3 game midweek, but that was on the back of unimpressive appearances in the first midweek and the Barbarians game back in London, plus he played a full game midweek and his fitness looks like it needs a bit of work. That only leaves Gibson who hasn't impressed at all.

[timhen]

Lawes
Croft
Wood
Robshaw
Youngs

No Ahton, Foden, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Corbisiaro etc?

Biltong it would much quicker to ask who/how many WONT be around. We have an incrediby young side with only 185 or so caps between them. Better yet our best players tend to be the younger ones. No doubt this is partly why Meyer thinks we will be contenders in 2015.

Understood, what I am trying to establish is who you guys rate as the future of English rugby.

If I look at our squad then my 2015 matchday 22 will look quite different to the one playing this weekend.

I'll take a punt at a 2015 England squad. A fair bit of speculation is required here as there are a number of areas that still need experimentation with upcoming options, but I'd envisage a WC 30-man squad along these sort of lines:

Hookers - Hartley, Youngs, George
Props - Corbisero, Cole, Marler, Thomas, Mullan
Locks - Lawes, Launchbury, Kitchener, Attwood/Garvey
Backrow - Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Crane, Fearns/Haskell, Kvesic/Armitage
SHs - Youngs, Care
FHs - Ford, Flood/Burns
Centres - Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Joseph
Wings - Ashton, May, Benjamin/Sharples/Wade
FBs - Foden, Brown

Featured in a test this tour
Part of the tour squad

[ChequeredJersey]

Launchbury was in the tour squad, he just got injured!

I'd have at least another centre in there mate. Barritt, or if we think Manu goes to 12, Lowe or Trinder. Or Allen. I'm not giving up on that one

[Cumbrian]

I was going to say the same thing, there is no way they would go into 2015 with only three centres. I doubt that they will only take two scrum halfs either.

[hugehandoff]

Corbs out with knee injury and Marler back in...shame but all good experience for Marler

[LondonTiger]

Corbs out with knee injury and Marler back in...shame but all good experience for Marler

where is that reported?

Oh and bugger.

[Beaker]

Corbs out with knee injury and Marler back in...shame but all good experience for Marler

Aye but leaves us with the powerhouse front row replacements of Mears and PDJ. SA must be cacking themselves!

[Guest]

Corbs out with knee injury and Marler back in...shame but all good experience for Marler

where is that reported?

Oh and bugger.

found it here:

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/rugby-union/england/news/marler-replaces-corbisiero_31784.html

and bugger indeed.

[hugehandoff]

I forgot to add my bu**er (firewall won't let me write naughty words). Instead of a nice cameo from Marler it will have to be a big one. PDJ to play a blinder from the 79th minute onwards.

[LondonTiger]

I thought PDJ was looking fairly solid for Saints during RWC - and then as stand ins for Mooj and Tiny. Since the LV final though, where Ayerza destroyed him he has resembled a limp stick of celery.

[hugehandoff]

Luckily the Saffers are strictly meateaters!

[Biltong]

Luckily the Saffers are strictly meateaters!

We do enjoy the odd salad on the side. We love to liquidise celery for our winter vegetable soups as well.

[hugehandoff]

"We love to liquidise celery for our winter vegetable soups as well." I am sorry but that is stretching things too far. The SA girls might do this, but not those huge SA men. And I think that PDJ might struggle against one of those girls as well.

[Biltong]

"We love to liquidise celery for our winter vegetable soups as well." I am sorry but that is stretching things too far. The SA girls might do this, but not those huge SA men. And I think that PDJ might struggle against one of those girls as well.

Fine I will concede the fact that our wives do the liquidising.

[Biltong]

We are more the mincing the meat type.

[hugehandoff]

your last graphic has a large person in SA colours (almost) and a small person in the red rose colours (almost) of England and the SA one is giving the English one a severe bashing You guys just don't let up.

[Biltong]

Just building up for a good matchup tomorrow mate.

I think it is going to be a very tense affair.

[hugehandoff]

the only difference between your graphic and SA is the graphic can carry on bashing for longer than 20 mins

[Biltong]

Its pacing it self, but everytime you close the thread he rests.

[gregortree]

give him a break

[nathan]

I have no issue with SL trying players out at international level to see if they have what it takes to succeed. But if it does not work out then he needs to be ruthless and drop them. Dowson was a player that many said deserved a go.....well has had a go and has not impressed (not rubbish, but not impressed). Therefore, move on to someone else and that means not having him on the subs bench. Same for Mears.

But you can't just throw a player on the pitch and if he doesn't perform banish him. Might the player a couple of games to get up to speed etc.

[pbuk0]

The bench is full of deadwood.. Mears/ PDJ/ Dowson/ Botha/ Dickson all of these guys have no future with England after this tour....

My Squad for AI's after this tour is as follows;

Props: Cole, Corbs, Marler, Mullen, (Plus another tighthead maybe Hardin or Thomas)
Hookers: Hartley, Youngs, Webber.
2nd Row; Laws, Garvey, Parling, Attwood, Kitchener..
Back row: Morgan, Robshaw, Croft, Artmitage, Ferns, Haskell
Scrum Half; Youngs, Care,
Fly Half: Ford, Flood, Farrell
Centres: Joseph, Tulligai, Barrit, Allen.
Back 3 : Foden, Ashton, Brown, May, Sharples.

I would also like to see England develop an openside maybe Kvesic or Wallace..

[ChequeredJersey]

No Launchbury?

[Rugby Uberlord]

So does this mean the bokke are mincers?

[pbuk0]

No Launchbury?

it was a toss up between him and Kitchener but I haven't seen enough of him and he was injured for the SA tour...

[timhen]

Launchbury was in the tour squad, he just got injured!

I'd have at least another centre in there mate. Barritt, or if we think Manu goes to 12, Lowe or Trinder. Or Allen. I'm not giving up on that one

I was going to say the same thing, there is no way they would go into 2015 with only three centres. I doubt that they will only take two scrum halfs either.

Launchbury was in the tour squad, but went home in the first few days, so didn't feature at any level and wouldn't have been noticed by biltongbek.

Quite a few sides, including ourselves, went to the WC with only 3 centres. I listed May on the wing (I think his best position), but his primary position is meant to be centre, he hasn't played there a lot recently, but we're talking 3 years from now and with Fuimaono-Sapolu & Tindall both leaving Gloucester last season I think we'll see him play at centre more often this season if Trinder or Twelvetrees isn't available.

Yes, I was going to go for 3 SHs, but lacking a standout 3rd option I decided to sidestep it and stick with 2. We took 3 last time and Simpson played all of 10mins. Our games were a minimum of 6 days apart at the last WC, so I don't think fatigue will be as much of an issue for the the SHs and I thought it better to keep our best options bubbling with frequent play and rotation. I went with an extra prop in the end as it's a position that results in more injuries and with the new rules bringing in 8 man benches more props will be getting game time (I wonder if this will mean that WC squads are bumped up from 30).

The other point is that being at home, having extra players around the squad and easily drafted in won't be an issue.


Specifics were not the major point of that post though, I was just trying to give biltongbek what he wanted, an outline of what the future might look like.

[ChequeredJersey]

Also, let's not forget Daly as a potential centre. He was an integral part of that U20 finalist team, IMO, as Farrell and Ford

[Biltong]

So does this mean the bokke are mincers?

Nope, ruffian butchers who likes to mince fresh meat.

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