SA vs England 3rd test: Build up, announcements and match thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

England

A Goode; C Ashton, J Joseph, M Tuilagi, B Foden; T Flood, D Care; A Corbisiero, D Hartley (capt), D Cole, T Palmer, G Parling, T Johnson, J Haskell, T Waldrom.

Replacements : L Mears, J Marler, M Botha, P Dowson, L Dickson, O Farrell, B Barritt.


Lancaster said: “I am really pleased for Alex [Goode]. He has worked hard in training and has been pushing Mike Brown and Ben Foden close so we are looking forward to him bringing his footballing skills to this Test. Danny Care likewise has bided his time in a very competitive position, knuckled down and deserves his chance, as has James Haskell, who has played this season for the Highlanders at No 7.

“We felt that the pack got some momentum in the second half last week so we have gone for Alex [Corbisiero] and Tom [Palmer], but I am sure Joe Marler and Mo Botha can make an impact from the bench.

“The guys did the shirt proud in Potchefstroom on Tuesday and I have no doubt that the 22 involved on Saturday will rise to this final challenge as we look to end this almost 12-month season on a high.”



South Africa

Gio Aplon, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers, Wynand Olivier, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard; Tendai Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Juandre Kruger, Marcell Coetzee, Jaques Potgieter, Pierre Spies

Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Ryan Kankowski, Ruan Pienaar, Elton Jantjies, Bjorn Basson


Looking at this team it loses a lot of physicality.

Comparing a first choice backrow of Schalk Burger, Juan smith and Willem Alberts to Jaque Potgieter, Marcell Coetzee and Pierre Spies it is clear that South Africa will have to play wider and take less contact in the ruck situation, if not England will easily be able to dominate the contest at the breakdown.

Looking at the midfield combination of Frans Steyn and Jean de Villiers compared to Wynand Olivier and Jean de Villiers it will be far inferior due to no creativity at all between the two midfielders, but also no kicking out of hand and defensively Olivier is weak.

Aplon at the back does add some creativity at 15, yet even though he is as gutsy as hell at 75 kg, he will be targeted by big runners.

All in all this will be a litmus test for this Bok team. One I sincerely hope they pass.

Problem is looking at the players out of this match be it injuries weddings etc. not having Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Willem Alberts, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Frans Steyn and Patrick Lambie makes this a decidedly easier test for England.

[Zander]

Not bad from England, hopefully they can build on this for the Autumn Internationals.

[maestegmafia]

England, the best team in the NH

Creditable draw yes, but you have to have beaten all the other teams to be top in the NH. Don't get ahead of yourself now...!

[Knowsit17]

Worst SA performance I've seen in a while tbh. Let their feathers get ruffled too easily when they were in a good position. Steyn's 2nd half kicking was poor.

[Duty281]

England, the best team in the NH

Creditable draw yes, but you have to have beaten all the other teams to be top in the NH. Don't get ahead of yourself now...!

Wales are overrated in my view.

[glamorganalun]

Well done England, boring game but almost got the result. SA were very poor but their 10 has been as bad as the Wales 10 over the 3 games. Great defence, but Cole could have cost England a victory. SA did not make the most of the 14 men and kicked the ball away, they must have been having tips from Gatland. Walsh had a good game he tried to keep they game going.

[EnglishReign]

Mehh. Disappointed, we had some injuries as did SA but really should've finished that off.

[thebluesmancometh]

By who, the 6N teams, maybe thats why they won the GS.

But I won't rise to your baiting anymore, England had to work hard for that draw, and I think it's fair to say all the NH internatiol boys deserve one hell of a holiday... Congrats boys we'll see you next season!

[Rory_Gallagher]

Congratulations to England, your forwards were massive today, in my view you dominated the breakdowns, we never got quick ball, Alberts was seriously missed, but it just shows Spies can only operate in Space, Potgieter didn't impress at all

I thought so too biltong but I wouldn't even start. Some (silly) people here think the referee gave the breakdown to SA..

I was VERY impressed with Coetzee today. He worked very hard.

[mystiroakey]

Some really bitter fans on here.. jealous of a draw... drop me out and get a life

[timhen]

Cheers for the compliment Biltong, more even today (maybe in ineptness at times) but you guys were clearly the better side this tour. Looking forward to the rematch later in the year, hopefully both with fully fit squads.

[Duty281]

By who, the 6N teams, maybe thats why they won the GS.

But I won't rise to your baiting anymore, England had to work hard for that draw, and I think it's fair to say all the NH internatiol boys deserve one hell of a holiday... Congrats boys we'll see you next season!

The poorest 6N in a while it has to be said. England were rebuilding, so were France, the other 3 teams were poor. That was a Wales team at their peak, can't see them winning next year.

[trebellbobaggins]

Lots to build o for eng, promising.

I think eng , Wales and Scotland can take positives from this summer.

Ireland seem to need to go back to the drawing board items of tactics. The European scenes tell us the players are good enough.

[thebluesmancometh]

Leave the insults out Rory, just because your opinion is different to mine...

I didn't say the ref gave SA the breakdown, I said they were getting away with murder compared to a NH ref's interpretation.

Were any of these tour games reffed by a NH ref? How did they go?

[timhen]

Guys, just ignore the wummers please, don't let this topic descend into petty bullsheet.

[thebluesmancometh]

England were rebuilding, so were France.

I suggest you check the average age, the number of players who debut'd 12 months previous, and number of players lost from the WC.

France had a very near team to the one in the WC final, England were starting a rebuilding process, and generally have been since 2003.

On the plus side I firmly belive Wales were 'rebuilding' in the 90's, and this team will win the next WC, but hey ho we will differ on opinion.

I think England are 5/6 starting players from being a very good team, and if they take their time and give Lancaster the oppportunity I think they'll be a real force come the next WC.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Leave the insults out Rory, just because your opinion is different to mine...

I didn't say the ref gave SA the breakdown, I said they were getting away with murder compared to a NH ref's interpretation.

Were any of these tour games reffed by a NH ref? How did they go?

http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/Training/MatchOfficialPnl/02/06/16/04/120321TOMARCH2012SELECTIONMEETINGMATRIX-NC.pdf

NZ vs Ire, Refs: Nigel Owens twice, Roman Poite
SA vs Eng, Refs: Steve Walsh twice, Alain Rolland
Aus vs Wal, Refs: Craig Joubert twice, Chris Pollock
Arg vs Ita/Fra: Wayne Barnes twice, George Clancy

It's amazing how people tend to see more ref's mistakes/interpretations against the team they want to win. Last weekend when I phoned home my Dad was ropable about Owens getting in the way of the Weepu pass to Carter for his 1st drop goal attempt (personally I thought it was another shoite Weepu pass).

[Cumbrian]

So, so disappointing, we could have had it! They should have set up a few more phases and got Farrell closer. Little composure shown all game.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Leave the insults out Rory, just because your opinion is different to mine...

I didn't say the ref gave SA the breakdown, I said they were getting away with murder compared to a NH ref's interpretation.

Were any of these tour games reffed by a NH ref? How did they go?

http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/Training/MatchOfficialPnl/02/06/16/04/120321TOMARCH2012SELECTIONMEETINGMATRIX-NC.pdf

NZ vs Ire, Refs: Nigel Owens twice, Roman Poite
SA vs Eng, Refs: Steve Walsh twice, Alain Rolland
Aus vs Wal, Refs: Craig Joubert twice, Chris Pollock
Arg vs Ita/Fra: Wayne Barnes twice, George Clancy

It's amazing how people tend to see more ref's mistakes/interpretations against the team they want to win. Last weekend when I phoned home my Dad was ropable about Owens getting in the way of the Weepu pass to Carter for his 1st drop goal attempt (personally I thought it was another shoite Weepu pass).

This. Bluesman, if you think you are entitled to question a referee of bias, then I am entitled to say you are being ridiculous.

[thebluesmancometh]

And what does 'this' state Rory?!

I wish you would just have a normal debate without manipulation of what hgas been said or trying to move the goalposts!

[Hound_of_Harrow]

Congratulations to England, your forwards were massive today, in my view you dominated the breakdowns, we never got quick ball, Alberts was seriously missed, but it just shows Spies can only operate in Space, Potgieter didn't impress at all

Cheers biltong. Here, we are disappointed that England made some poor decisions in that last 20.

Where's a certain poster who's name starts with 'm' and ends with 'g'. He predicted SA would 'smash' England on the Ireland thread.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Where have I manipulated anything or moved any goalposts?

"This" means that some people see what they want to see. For example, people tend to see more mistakes against the team they want to win. Just as Kiwi said. He is right.

[SimonofSurrey]

Duty281 - wind your neck in, you're stuffing it up for all us two-eyed Englishmen. Fyi Wales are GS Champs and 4th in the World Rankings, ie ahead of England. End of story.

Walsh: awful for two reasons - 1/ he refs with no empathy or constructive communication (needs a lesson from the excellent N Owens); 2/ he makes all the right decisions in the wrong order: eg SA pinged in the 2nd half for a bullet straight throw to the tail after having almost fed the scrum half directly in the first half a couple of times, and when England loosehead failed to bind under Walsh's nose he gave nothing, but pinged other far less obvious offences. No game can flow when both sides must be wondering how the ref is reading it.

Game: little there to scare the rest of the world, but the personnel on the field - ie many 1st choice absentees - on both sides made it feel almost like a B international. But a draw is not yet another defeat so we'll take it, as well as 2 defeats in 5 from a raw squad in a hostile place. They all will have learned a lot. AIs and 6N 2013 will show if they do anything with these lessons.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Duty281 - wind your neck in, you're stuffing it up for all us two-eyed Englishmen. Fyi Wales are GS Champs and 4th in the World Rankings, ie ahead of England. End of story.

Walsh: awful for two reasons - 1/ he refs with no empathy or constructive communication (needs a lesson from the excellent N Owens); 2/ he makes all the right decisions in the wrong order: eg SA pinged in the 2nd half for a bullet straight throw to the tail after having almost fed the scrum half directly in the first half a couple of times, and when England loosehead failed to bind under Walsh's nose he gave nothing, but pinged other far less obvious offences. No game can flow when both sides must be wondering how the ref is reading it.

Game: little there to scare the rest of the world, but the personnel on the field - ie many 1st choice absentees - on both sides made it feel almost like a B international. But a draw is not yet another defeat so we'll take it, as well as 2 defeats in 5 from a raw squad in a hostile place. They all will have learned a lot. AIs and 6N 2013 will show if they do anything with these lessons.

Simon, today's result means England will go 4th on the rankings. For what's worth, you can throw a blanket over Wales & England at the moment IMO, it's that close.

[thebluesmancometh]

You are smack on, people see more mistakes against the team they want to win!

But being Welsh I am quite neutral, I have stated I want England to go well but how bothered I am by them, or Ireland getting smashed equates to how I feel about Paris Hiltons new perfume line!

As a ref myself I have seen numerous differences in interpretation from guys like Barnes and Owens, to Walsh and Joubert.

I am willing to bet the breakdown is a whole different ball game in the AI's...

[Rory_Gallagher]

You said earlier in this thread that you want England to win, did you not?

We aren't talking about differences of interpretation though. How can you claim I am the one moving the goalposts? You accused the referees of bias towards the SH sides based on this tour. That is what I have a problem with.

[aitchw]

Before the tour I expected a series whitewash but a massive step forward in experience. 1 win would have been great. The draw is disappointing only in as much as they could have sneaked it with a bit more maturity. To their credit they didn't take a pasting in any game and as individuals many will come hope better players.

The five test format was a success imo and I hope SL and his coaching team will have learned a lot. There's the makings of a decent squad here but still have doubts about the coaching set up. They, as much as the squad, have some way to go to prove themselves.

[thebluesmancometh]

I have stated I want England to go well but how bothered I am by them, or Ireland getting smashed equates to how I feel about Paris Hiltons new perfume line!

Hence this sentence, please read what I write, if you did you would also realise I was talking about Bias of their interpretation, I have stated it a about 50 times for you! They are bias toward the SH sides because of their interpretation, my interpretation on a number of issues is very different, from what I have been taught (not that I'm claiming I'm any good a ref)

You tend to see the odd word and react before reading the whole context!

[Rory_Gallagher]

I have no idea what you mean. How can there be a bias of interpretation?

[SimonofSurrey]

Thanks kiwireddevil but, before Duty281 bites back at me, Wales are still GS Champs and, therefore, in all fairness, top NH side.

On reffing, there seems to be a huge difference in interpretation between NH and SH officials. If so, the fault surely lies with the administrators who let this happen rather than the refs themselves who presumably do not suddenly grow horns and a tail as soon as they see a side from the other side of the equator.

[EnglishReign]

I predicted 2-1 to SA before the tour, gutted we couldn't get the win. Can't wait to replace some of the deadwood with real exciting talent though. Bring on the Autumn.

[Guest]

Thanks kiwireddevil but, before Duty281 bites back at me, Wales are still GS Champs and, therefore, in all fairness, top NH side.

On reffing, there seems to be a huge difference in interpretation between NH and SH officials. If so, the fault surely lies with the administrators who let this happen rather than the refs themselves who presumably do not suddenly grow horns and a tail as soon as they see a side from the other side of the equator.

A spot on post Simon, the issue is how it is even possible for there to be such a difference in interpretation. Needs to be looked at for me

[trebellbobaggins]

So seems to be our half backs need to be care and flood then from what I've seen.

Manu and joseph in the centers?

And Goode looked excellent at full back.

Also exeters Johnson has been excellent. Really pleased for him.

[yappysnap]

Joseph has done nothing to be a starter at 13, either he's benched or he starts on the wing.

Keep Manu at 13 and give him some good ball to use and let's see how a few more games outside of Flood go for him.

I quite like the Foden, Ashton and Goode back three but wonder if we should just be looking at dropping Foden rather then shoving him all over the place.

Gutted for the way it ended, Farrel is just terrible. He can help us to uninspiring wins against other NH teams but against the big three we need a far more dangerous 10.

Parling again looked cack, as did Botha when he came on. Oddly Palmer actually looked better then both of them.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

So seems to be our half backs need to be care and flood then from what I've seen.

Manu and joseph in the centers?

And Goode looked excellent at full back.

Also exeters Johnson has been excellent. Really pleased for him.

Thought Youngs was better in the 2nd test think him and Flood should start first game of AI's with Care on the bench.

Joseph has had very little ball to impress, thought Tuilagi played well as this game he actually ran onto the ball. Just a question if one of them can step up and help the fly half distribute effectively.

Goode played very well, down to form between him and Brown as to who plays full back as I like Foden on the wing at the moment as there arent that many options at the moment. Also if SL fancies using Goode as a second fly half at times would put Brown out of the side.

Johnson played well overall and provides really good competition in the back row.

[Morgannwg]

A lot of talk on Sky, talking as if the draw was a win. Time to see it for what it was, a series loss and the fact you had three U21s in the midfield does not make this a success. Not a wum, just how it is coming across to me.

[nathan]

One thing i've noticed during this tour is that our kicking has been rubbish. It's not just been one player though, is this the coaching causing this?

[nathan]

A lot of talk on Sky, talking as if the draw was a win. Time to see it for what it was, a series loss and the fact you had three U21s in the midfield does not make this a success. Not a wum, just how it is coming across to me.

They were talking of progression. Progression during these tests. How they coped with the physicality a lot better than the other two tests.

[mystiroakey]

we should have won. end off.. in fact we should have won all 3- we just didnt start the first 2 games with the correct intensity- But i suppose its tough to start that way after being used to the light weight 6 nations teams

[rozakthegoon]

gutted for flood. i think if he had stayed on he would have unlocked that defence and got manu and jj flying. very pos would have won it then. farrell looks knackered(and fair enough, young lad, long season, lot on his shoulders)

[sirtidychris]

Really unimpressed with Owen Farrell today...to be fair he kicked one awesome gary owen which resulted in 3 points but apart from that his first option is to always kick it....and usually badly, he did this alot in the six nations and again today as well as giving away stupid penalties. I don't think Flood gets the credit he deserves he is still young and massively integral to the set up, he stands so flat and has great attacking distribution.

[ChequeredJersey]

For me if possible:

Brown- back up Goode
Foden - back up Benjamin
Tuilagi - back up JJ
Allen- back up Barritt
Ashton- back up Monye
Flood- back up Farrell
Youngs- back up Care
Morgan- back up Waldrum
Robshaw- back up Wood
Croft- back up Haskell
Lawes- back up Garvey
Parling- back up Launchbury
Cole- back up Harden?
Hartley- back up Young
Corbs- back up Marler

With George, Young, Mullan, Attwood, Botha, Fearns, Johnson, dickson, Ford, Lowe, Daly and Wade as additional players

[ChequeredJersey]

Morg, surely the same but worse applies to Wales?

[EnglishReign]

Foden should start fullback, only because we have so many great players who can play on the wing.

[thebluesmancometh]

reign

Who are these 'great' wingers?

[Knackeredknees]

For me if possible:

Brown- back up Goode
Foden - back up Benjamin
Tuilagi - back up JJ
Allen- back up Barritt
Ashton- back up Monye
Flood- back up Farrell
Youngs- back up Care
Morgan- back up Waldrum
Robshaw- back up Wood
Croft- back up Haskell
Lawes- back up Garvey
Parling- back up Launchbury
Cole- back up Harden?
Hartley- back up Young
Corbs- back up Marler

With George, Young, Mullan, Attwood, Botha, Fearns, Johnson, dickson, Ford, Lowe, Daly and Wade as additional players

+1

Would be happy with that 42 as an EPS

That's two very good sides

[Hood83]

Joseph has done nothing to be a starter at 13, either he's benched or he starts on the wing.

Keep Manu at 13 and give him some good ball to use and let's see how a few more games outside of Flood go for him.

I quite like the Foden, Ashton and Goode back three but wonder if we should just be looking at dropping Foden rather then shoving him all over the place.

Gutted for the way it ended, Farrel is just terrible. He can help us to uninspiring wins against other NH teams but against the big three we need a far more dangerous 10.

Parling again looked cack, as did Botha when he came on. Oddly Palmer actually looked better then both of them.

That's largely how i saw it.

[mbernz]

gutted for flood. i think if he had stayed on he would have unlocked that defence and got manu and jj flying. very pos would have won it then. farrell looks knackered(and fair enough, young lad, long season, lot on his shoulders)

Did you watch the beginning of the match? Two or three times early on Flood got the ball and looked like a rabbit in the headlights, ummed and erred, doubled back on himself, got scragged and put us on the backfoot. Then once he was injured he should really have given that penalty and conversion to Goode as well. Farrell isn't the answer for us at 10, but I do still worry a fair bit about Flood, he puts some good performances together, but when the pressure is on it's not uncommon for him to lose himself.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

gutted for flood. i think if he had stayed on he would have unlocked that defence and got manu and jj flying. very pos would have won it then. farrell looks knackered(and fair enough, young lad, long season, lot on his shoulders)

Did you watch the beginning of the match? Two or three times early on Flood got the ball and looked like a rabbit in the headlights, ummed and erred, doubled back on himself, got scragged and put us on the backfoot. Then once he was injured he should really have given that penalty and conversion to Goode as well. Farrell isn't the answer for us at 10, but I do still worry a fair bit about Flood, he puts some good performances together, but when the pressure is on it's not uncommon for him to lose himself.

When it comes from kicking from the tee Flood is a confidence player after his miss after his knock he lost confidence and with that he tends to miss those slightly awkward kicks that aren't easy but he should get. However he brought far more shape to our game than Farrell did today who was poor. His kicking was often wayward and rarely tried to run with the ball. However do not write this chap off, if you think about it he has only had half a season playing 10 at club level and about 7 games at international level so he is learning on the job very few players if any do that playing at 10 and to be fair to him he had 2 good games against Wales and France. He needs to start playing week in week out at 10 for Sarries for him to develop and then he should become a very useful asset for England.

[mbernz]

For me if possible:

Brown- back up Goode
Foden - back up Benjamin
Tuilagi - back up JJ
Allen- back up Barritt
Ashton- back up Monye
Flood- back up Farrell
Youngs- back up Care
Morgan- back up Waldrum
Robshaw- back up Wood
Croft- back up Haskell
Lawes- back up Garvey
Parling- back up Launchbury
Cole- back up Harden?
Hartley- back up Young
Corbs- back up Marler

With George, Young, Mullan, Attwood, Botha, Fearns, Johnson, dickson, Ford, Lowe, Daly and Wade as additional players

I agree with a fair bit of that, but Thomas in for Harden, Crane in for Morgan (until he can sort his fitness out, then Waldrom drops, but with an eye on Fearns as well), Ford in for Farrell, Sharples in for Monye and Twelvetrees in for Allen (he might do well against NH sides but the Boks & ABs would have him for lunch, something I think numerous England coaches at various levels have identified). I'd also like to see Armitage or Kvesic in there, maybe in place of Haskell (who I don't think will ever develop a rugby brain) as back up to Robshaw, with Wood & Croft competing for the 6 shirt.

[mbernz]

gutted for flood. i think if he had stayed on he would have unlocked that defence and got manu and jj flying. very pos would have won it then. farrell looks knackered(and fair enough, young lad, long season, lot on his shoulders)

Did you watch the beginning of the match? Two or three times early on Flood got the ball and looked like a rabbit in the headlights, ummed and erred, doubled back on himself, got scragged and put us on the backfoot. Then once he was injured he should really have given that penalty and conversion to Goode as well. Farrell isn't the answer for us at 10, but I do still worry a fair bit about Flood, he puts some good performances together, but when the pressure is on it's not uncommon for him to lose himself.

When it comes from kicking from the tee Flood is a confidence player after his miss after his knock he lost confidence and with that he tends to miss those slightly awkward kicks that aren't easy but he should get. However he brought far more shape to our game than Farrell did today who was poor. His kicking was often wayward and rarely tried to run with the ball. However do not write this chap off, if you think about it he has only had half a season playing 10 at club level and about 7 games at international level so he is learning on the job very few players if any do that playing at 10 and to be fair to him he had 2 good games against Wales and France. He needs to start playing week in week out at 10 for Sarries for him to develop and then he should become a very useful asset for England.

He did last week, but not this, which was my point, it's more than a few occasions that he's gone wayward and flustered at critical moments. Still our best option currently, but he does make me worry in big international games against physical opposition.

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