SA vs England 3rd test: Build up, announcements and match thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

England

A Goode; C Ashton, J Joseph, M Tuilagi, B Foden; T Flood, D Care; A Corbisiero, D Hartley (capt), D Cole, T Palmer, G Parling, T Johnson, J Haskell, T Waldrom.

Replacements : L Mears, J Marler, M Botha, P Dowson, L Dickson, O Farrell, B Barritt.


Lancaster said: “I am really pleased for Alex [Goode]. He has worked hard in training and has been pushing Mike Brown and Ben Foden close so we are looking forward to him bringing his footballing skills to this Test. Danny Care likewise has bided his time in a very competitive position, knuckled down and deserves his chance, as has James Haskell, who has played this season for the Highlanders at No 7.

“We felt that the pack got some momentum in the second half last week so we have gone for Alex [Corbisiero] and Tom [Palmer], but I am sure Joe Marler and Mo Botha can make an impact from the bench.

“The guys did the shirt proud in Potchefstroom on Tuesday and I have no doubt that the 22 involved on Saturday will rise to this final challenge as we look to end this almost 12-month season on a high.”



South Africa

Gio Aplon, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers, Wynand Olivier, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard; Tendai Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Juandre Kruger, Marcell Coetzee, Jaques Potgieter, Pierre Spies

Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Ryan Kankowski, Ruan Pienaar, Elton Jantjies, Bjorn Basson


Looking at this team it loses a lot of physicality.

Comparing a first choice backrow of Schalk Burger, Juan smith and Willem Alberts to Jaque Potgieter, Marcell Coetzee and Pierre Spies it is clear that South Africa will have to play wider and take less contact in the ruck situation, if not England will easily be able to dominate the contest at the breakdown.

Looking at the midfield combination of Frans Steyn and Jean de Villiers compared to Wynand Olivier and Jean de Villiers it will be far inferior due to no creativity at all between the two midfielders, but also no kicking out of hand and defensively Olivier is weak.

Aplon at the back does add some creativity at 15, yet even though he is as gutsy as hell at 75 kg, he will be targeted by big runners.

All in all this will be a litmus test for this Bok team. One I sincerely hope they pass.

Problem is looking at the players out of this match be it injuries weddings etc. not having Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Willem Alberts, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Frans Steyn and Patrick Lambie makes this a decidedly easier test for England.

[Guest]

Joseph has done nothing to be a starter at 13, either he's benched or he starts on the wing.

He's hardly had the chance to prove himself though. At LI last season, JJ was playing outside players like Bowden or Shingler, guys who know how to pass a f***ing rugby ball and create space. None of the players he's played outside for England so far can do that, Farrell is a kicker, Barritt is picked for his defence, and Tuilagi always takes the ball on himself, he never passes the ball. It's hardly surprising that JJ has been quiet in an england shirt, he's been starved of ball. If england had picked Allen or JTH at 12 instead things might have been different.

[TJ1]

Joseph looked the pretty much the best of the centres to me

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

gutted for flood. i think if he had stayed on he would have unlocked that defence and got manu and jj flying. very pos would have won it then. farrell looks knackered(and fair enough, young lad, long season, lot on his shoulders)

Did you watch the beginning of the match? Two or three times early on Flood got the ball and looked like a rabbit in the headlights, ummed and erred, doubled back on himself, got scragged and put us on the backfoot. Then once he was injured he should really have given that penalty and conversion to Goode as well. Farrell isn't the answer for us at 10, but I do still worry a fair bit about Flood, he puts some good performances together, but when the pressure is on it's not uncommon for him to lose himself.

When it comes from kicking from the tee Flood is a confidence player after his miss after his knock he lost confidence and with that he tends to miss those slightly awkward kicks that aren't easy but he should get. However he brought far more shape to our game than Farrell did today who was poor. His kicking was often wayward and rarely tried to run with the ball. However do not write this chap off, if you think about it he has only had half a season playing 10 at club level and about 7 games at international level so he is learning on the job very few players if any do that playing at 10 and to be fair to him he had 2 good games against Wales and France. He needs to start playing week in week out at 10 for Sarries for him to develop and then he should become a very useful asset for England.

He did last week, but not this, which was my point, it's more than a few occasions that he's gone wayward and flustered at critical moments. Still our best option currently, but he does make me worry in big international games against physical opposition.

I am afraid that we disagree here, we had much more continuity and forward momentum with Flood at 10 than Farrell. He is by far our best option at the moment.

[EnglishReign]

reign

Who are these 'great' wingers?

Sinbad, Wade, Sharples, May, Benjamin are all better wingers than Foden. It just seems desperate not using players properly, we have enough.

[thebluesmancometh]

Great though?! Really?

I'd say decent clubmen so far, but none have shown more than that.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

reign

Who are these 'great' wingers?

Sinbad, Wade, Sharples, May, Benjamin are all better wingers than Foden. It just seems desperate not using players properly, we have enough.

All very debatable not sure many would have finished like Foden in the first test or have his counter attacking and aerial ability. His selection on the wing during this tour has been one of the major positives of this tour.

[EnglishReign]

Great though?! Really?

I'd say decent clubmen so far, but none have shown more than that.

OK, lets change that to "potentially great" but my point wasn't about defining words, just that I'd rather play a winger on the wing.

And Manu, it's only been a positive because both Goode and Brown have been excellent. One thing about Foden though is his D is very good. I'll be surprised if SL continues to play him on the wing, though.

[thebluesmancometh]

See your point reign.

I think Flood on the wing has gone ok though, and given more time might just turn out to be a wonder stroke. Goode has looked very classy all season, more so than Farell IMO.

Plus from Fodens POV, he is probably 3rd in line for the lions jersey at FB, on the wing however...

[thebluesmancometh]

Foden not Flood obviously!

[EnglishReign]

Yeah, I always thought Goode deserved a chance - for a debut that was some performance.

Foden is definitely below Kearney and Halfpenny for the jersey, Brown and Goode could throw their hats in the ring though.

Listen, I won't complain if Foden develops into a world class winger, I'm just not a fan of this shifting about!

[mbernz]

gutted for flood. i think if he had stayed on he would have unlocked that defence and got manu and jj flying. very pos would have won it then. farrell looks knackered(and fair enough, young lad, long season, lot on his shoulders)

Did you watch the beginning of the match? Two or three times early on Flood got the ball and looked like a rabbit in the headlights, ummed and erred, doubled back on himself, got scragged and put us on the backfoot. Then once he was injured he should really have given that penalty and conversion to Goode as well. Farrell isn't the answer for us at 10, but I do still worry a fair bit about Flood, he puts some good performances together, but when the pressure is on it's not uncommon for him to lose himself.

When it comes from kicking from the tee Flood is a confidence player after his miss after his knock he lost confidence and with that he tends to miss those slightly awkward kicks that aren't easy but he should get. However he brought far more shape to our game than Farrell did today who was poor. His kicking was often wayward and rarely tried to run with the ball. However do not write this chap off, if you think about it he has only had half a season playing 10 at club level and about 7 games at international level so he is learning on the job very few players if any do that playing at 10 and to be fair to him he had 2 good games against Wales and France. He needs to start playing week in week out at 10 for Sarries for him to develop and then he should become a very useful asset for England.

He did last week, but not this, which was my point, it's more than a few occasions that he's gone wayward and flustered at critical moments. Still our best option currently, but he does make me worry in big international games against physical opposition.

I am afraid that we disagree here, we had much more continuity and forward momentum with Flood at 10 than Farrell. He is by far our best option at the moment.

That's fine, I'm quite happy for you to believe differently, though I've already stated that I also think he is our best option at the moment. If you were talking about his performance last week I'd agree with you, but can you point out anything notable that Flood contributed in terms of running the backline in his 10 mins today? Before the Boks woke up a bit, everything of note was from Care, the only thing I remember Flood doing was dilly-dallying on the ball, what am I forgetting?

[thebluesmancometh]

Reign

I see your point, you don't want him to turn into a Hook type, but then for every Hook there is a Roberts. Played at 15 most of his life, then on the wing for the Blues, then at 13 and finally to the pivotal position at 12.

If Foden can start the support lines of Ashton, he'll take his spot on the tour in a heartbeat!

[Hound_of_Harrow]

A certain 'wayward' 10 will be back playing in the Prem next season. While I think he may have accumulated too much negative baggage for Lancaster's 'happy, clappy' management style, Cipriani would get more from Tuilagi, Barritt and Joseph.

Farrell needs to get more experience with Sarries. And as talented as Ford is, he will probably be considered too small at Test level.

[yappysnap]

For me if possible:

Brown- back up Goode
Foden - back up Benjamin
Tuilagi - back up JJ
Allen- back up Barritt
Ashton- back up Monye
Flood- back up Farrell
Youngs- back up Care
Morgan- back up Waldrum
Robshaw- back up Wood
Croft- back up Haskell
Lawes- back up Garvey
Parling- back up Launchbury
Cole- back up Harden?
Hartley- back up Young
Corbs- back up Marler

With George, Young, Mullan, Attwood, Botha, Fearns, Johnson, dickson, Ford, Lowe, Daly and Wade as additional players

Only changes i'd make are May as back up to Foden and Benjamin or Short as back up instead of Monye on the other wing ( I like the idea of a bigger winger option and both have been scintilating at times for poor teams so could be immense at Tigers.)

Farrell wouldn't even be back up at the moment unless he can produce an all round game at Saracens and actually get the 10 Jersey, I find it laughable that SL won't pick some players until they're starters in their position but has happily picked Farrel, Kitchener and Youngs.

Parling is another who's on borrowed time, a truly abject performance today to cap off a poor tour. He needs a massive start to his season at Tigers and a big unit alongside him if he does play.

Lastly I wouldn't take Wood unless he actually produces some good games, at the moment he's looking like another Tom Rees and tbh he's not worth the risk, i'd look at Hask as Robshaw's back up and then Fearns on the other spot.

[yappysnap]

See your point reign.

I think Flood on the wing has gone ok though, and given more time might just turn out to be a wonder stroke. Goode has looked very classy all season, more so than Farell IMO.

Plus from Fodens POV, he is probably 3rd in line for the lions jersey at FB, on the wing however...

Lions backthree of Halfpenny, Kearny and Foden? Very secure under the high ball at least.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Joseph looked the pretty much the best of the centres to me

by doing what? he only got the ball once. They might as well play Joe Worsley at 13.

Lancasters biggest failing with England has been finding a way to bring the outside backs into the game other than by the opposition kicking the ball at them.
I wouldnt write JJ off but the combination of him and Manu isnt working at all, and if it was a straight choice between one or the other at 13 Id go with Tuilagi who has proven he can be effective there at any level.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

When it comes from kicking from the tee Flood is a confidence player after his miss after his knock he lost confidence and with that he tends to miss those slightly awkward kicks that aren't easy but he should get.

I thought it was more a case of actually being injured which hampered his kicking and missing a really tough one.
As for confidence Farrell had a bit too much when he turned down 3 points then kicked the position away straight after coming on. Overconfidence perhaps? He was dropped for being poor, and was hardly electric in this game. Once he settled down workmanlike, but not a player whos going to help turn England back into an attacking force.

[DaveM]

Well that was a reasonable result. I thought there were very good displays from the backrow (Johnson, Haskell, Robshaw, Croft and Wood are a fine selection of 6 and 7 options), Goode, Tuilagi (at 12) and the front row.

Farrell kicked away too much, but the trio of 21 year olds is something England would never have done before and things will improve. I'd stick with Flood, Tuilagi, JJ for the autumn tests. I see Allen has been put forward - this is a man not even trusted with the 12 shirt in the midweek games so I think we can discount that possibility. Hopefully 36 will start the season well for Gloucester and become a serious option.

Really interested question about who will be FB. I doubt it will be Foden (who will be left-wing), but will it be Brown or Goode? I think England's scrum wil be the best in the world in a year's time - for such a young front trow they are very impressive (and Corbs is still a better srummager than Marler).

Some forward movement from the tour as a whole, lots still to work on but I think there is proper competition for places buidling in a number of positions.

[DaveM]

Oh yes, I also thought that Walsh had a good game today. The man is massively improved even if he did make big mistake at the start of last week's game.

[Hound_of_Harrow]

Joseph looked the pretty much the best of the centres to me

by doing what? he only got the ball once. They might as well play Joe Worsley at 13.

Lancasters biggest failing with England has been finding a way to bring the outside backs into the game other than by the opposition kicking the ball at them.
I wouldnt write JJ off but the combination of him and Manu isnt working at all, and if it was a straight choice between one or the other at 13 Id go with Tuilagi who has proven he can be effective there at any level.

Worsley was a more astute player with ball in hand than many gave him credit for. He got a reputation as a fearless tackler (which he was). Too many England head coaches only ever saw him as a purely defensive player. He did that, and more, for Wasps.

And he did score 10 tries for England in 70+ games.

I agree with the comments about SL not finding a way of getting the back line moving.

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