SA vs England 3rd test: Build up, announcements and match thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

England

A Goode; C Ashton, J Joseph, M Tuilagi, B Foden; T Flood, D Care; A Corbisiero, D Hartley (capt), D Cole, T Palmer, G Parling, T Johnson, J Haskell, T Waldrom.

Replacements : L Mears, J Marler, M Botha, P Dowson, L Dickson, O Farrell, B Barritt.


Lancaster said: “I am really pleased for Alex [Goode]. He has worked hard in training and has been pushing Mike Brown and Ben Foden close so we are looking forward to him bringing his footballing skills to this Test. Danny Care likewise has bided his time in a very competitive position, knuckled down and deserves his chance, as has James Haskell, who has played this season for the Highlanders at No 7.

“We felt that the pack got some momentum in the second half last week so we have gone for Alex [Corbisiero] and Tom [Palmer], but I am sure Joe Marler and Mo Botha can make an impact from the bench.

“The guys did the shirt proud in Potchefstroom on Tuesday and I have no doubt that the 22 involved on Saturday will rise to this final challenge as we look to end this almost 12-month season on a high.”



South Africa

Gio Aplon, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers, Wynand Olivier, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard; Tendai Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Juandre Kruger, Marcell Coetzee, Jaques Potgieter, Pierre Spies

Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Ryan Kankowski, Ruan Pienaar, Elton Jantjies, Bjorn Basson


Looking at this team it loses a lot of physicality.

Comparing a first choice backrow of Schalk Burger, Juan smith and Willem Alberts to Jaque Potgieter, Marcell Coetzee and Pierre Spies it is clear that South Africa will have to play wider and take less contact in the ruck situation, if not England will easily be able to dominate the contest at the breakdown.

Looking at the midfield combination of Frans Steyn and Jean de Villiers compared to Wynand Olivier and Jean de Villiers it will be far inferior due to no creativity at all between the two midfielders, but also no kicking out of hand and defensively Olivier is weak.

Aplon at the back does add some creativity at 15, yet even though he is as gutsy as hell at 75 kg, he will be targeted by big runners.

All in all this will be a litmus test for this Bok team. One I sincerely hope they pass.

Problem is looking at the players out of this match be it injuries weddings etc. not having Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Willem Alberts, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Frans Steyn and Patrick Lambie makes this a decidedly easier test for England.

[Guest]

As a LI fan, its good to see them keeping faith with JJ. Hopefully he'll get some ball he can work with this time.

[Rugby Uberlord]

Ok, I'd prefer Youngs for Mears. Yes lineout a bit dodge but at least impact.
Happy with Marler, presumably if Cole injured Corbs moves to tight.
Botha, well, no one better out there really.
Dowson, thought Fearns did enough midweek, we know what Dowson offers.
others, well ok.
Thought may would have been on bench.

[Triangulation]

Two things

1. We plan to be ahead at 65 traditional subs time; and
2. You are only as good as your last game saffers! Just remember that when we leave that sour taste in your mouths. A parthian shot is coming your way! (note not "parting" but parthian) look it up.

[LondonTiger]

England team was fairly predictable I guess - on anothe thread I thought Barritt mat start if fit, and that Morgan may be on the bench instead of Dowson (which bearing in mind he played the full 80 midweek was silly by me).

We have to get on the front foot early, and keep the ball. We cannot afford a start like last Saturday.

[Biltong]

Could you guys give me an idea of players not selected due to injury or not in the touring squad that should have been in the starting line up please, I am not affay with all your players and are trying to figure out how many you would be missing, as SA is missing quite a number and I don't know what to expect from this test.

Thanks

[Rugby Uberlord]

Lawes
Croft
Wood
Now Robshaw
Now Youngs

Difficult really as no one established as squad and team are being developed and tinkered with. After this I'm hoping he realises our Engine room's been beasted and he gets more physicality (ie Atwood, Garvey etc)

[Biltong]

How many of these players do you think wll be at RWC 2015?

[Rugby Uberlord]

Lawes
Croft
Wood
Robshaw
Youngs

[Triangulation]

Hmmm starting side is fine considering injuries although Manu has a looooooong way to go as a test 12.

Otherwise Lancaster has to learn that you need ball carriers in your pack. 2003 i reckon we had 6. now what? 2? 3? ; AND

how to select a bench for impact rather than a holding operation.

[Biltong]

Lawes
Croft
Wood
Robshaw
Youngs

No Ahton, Foden, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Corbisiaro etc?

[LondonTiger]

Front row full strength, back-up hooker (Webber) injured.

Second Row - missing Lawes (injured) Attwood (not on tour)

Back row - missing Croft, wood, robshawall injured and Armitage had club duties. Add in Morgan arriving injured to the party and never being fit enough and we are down to clear second and third choices. (plus Crane injured).

In the backs Youngs and Brown would probably play if not injured and Barritt may have started if not for the lacerated eyeball suffered in the first test.

If the squad was fully fit, perhaps only 7 or 8 of the XV would be starting.

But you know what, it does not matter. You can only play with the cards you are dealt.

[Rugby Uberlord]

Still a long way to go
We need to fins a second tighthead or the 23 man benches won't help us a bit
I like T Youngs but needs to develop
Happy with looseheads
2nd rows - our 2015 second row will be entirely different to what you've seen methinks
Back row - getting there but still not happy with 8's
9's - ok
10's - well how do we wanna play?
Wings- plenty of resource, Wade to develop, looking forward to seeing Benjamin at Tigers, Sharples injured (FORGOT HIM!)
Centres, well we have the guys just don't know how to play em, Trinder etc in the peripherals
Fullbacks - seem ok

[Rugby Uberlord]

Sorry Biltong,

Thought you meant how many of the injured would I expect to be at RWC 2015

[Biltong]

Front row full strength, back-up hooker (Webber) injured.

Second Row - missing Lawes (injured) Attwood (not on tour)

Back row - missing Croft, wood, robshawall injured and Armitage had club duties. Add in Morgan arriving injured to the party and never being fit enough and we are down to clear second and third choices. (plus Crane injured).

In the backs Youngs and Brown would probably play if not injured and Barritt may have started if not for the lacerated eyeball suffered in the first test.

If the squad was fully fit, perhaps only 7 or 8 of the XV would be starting.

But you know what, it does not matter. You can only play with the cards you are dealt.

Absolutely, but it does make me feel better knowing the injury list on both sides is the same,

My biggest concern is that plonker Olivier, in my book the most overrated player in SA, he is half the player Frans steyn is. Also Werner Kruger, he won't handle the front row at the local girl scouts.

[Triangulation]

Lawes
Croft
Wood
Robshaw
Youngs

No Ahton, Foden, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Corbisiaro etc?

Biltong it would much quicker to ask who/how many WONT be around. We have an incrediby young side with only 185 or so caps between them. Better yet our best players tend to be the younger ones. No doubt this is partly why Meyer thinks we will be contenders in 2015.

[Bullsbok]

Two things

1. We plan to be ahead at 65 traditional subs time; and
2. You are only as good as your last game saffers! Just remember that when we leave that sour taste in your mouths. A parthian shot is coming your way! (note not "parting" but parthian) look it up.

i expect you to say something like this considering you've just lost the series

[Biltong]

Lawes
Croft
Wood
Robshaw
Youngs

No Ahton, Foden, Tuilagi, Cole, Hartley, Corbisiaro etc?

Biltong it would much quicker to ask who/how many WONT be around. We have an incrediby young side with only 185 or so caps between them. Better yet our best players tend to be the younger ones. No doubt this is partly why Meyer thinks we will be contenders in 2015.

Understood, what I am trying to establish is who you guys rate as the future of English rugby.

If I look at our squad then my 2015 matchday 22 will look quite different to the one playing this weekend.

[Rugby Uberlord]

Absolutely Tr,

Our front row are more or less there, and all early 20's
Our engine room in SA at mo, I do not expect any of them there in 2015 - and all older
Back row, out of those playing tomoz maybe Haskell only. Out of squad, Robshaw and Haskell
9's I think pretty much there
10's have a certain Ford and poss Burns to add to the mix
Wings - Sharples, Benjamin to add to May and Wade and Ashton (BYE Strettle!!)
Centres - as aformentioned current ones with Trinder
FB's - enough already

Think that's about it. I would bring Father Farrell in for defence (Bilt's this should sure our shocking defence up) and I would keep Catt for Backs.
Wonder what Backy's doing now re coaching...

[Rugby Uberlord]

Quick question, can anyone recall Manu getting the ball when actually running? Thinking about it he seems to have more or less always got it standing still?

[Triangulation]

Ah sorry Biltong.

The guys who can come in and make an impact all things going well would be in my opinion:

Tom Youngs at hooker. Otherwise our frow is set apart from a reserve tighthead.

3 new second rows!!! Garvey, Attwood, ......

Backrows are set. A back up 8 to Morgan is needed.

9s were set

10s - an area for conjecture. Hopefully Ford comes on and is the starting 10 by 2015. Flood may well also be retained. Freddie Burns is another prospect.

12 - a longstanding problem area for us. Im not sure that either Barrit or Farrell are the answer come 2015. Twelvetrees might come into it. Big strapping centre with 10's skills.

13 - set

back 3 - set

Now then - querry this for T3 ....

Will we see Alex Goode coming up to first receiver in phase play? Particularly if Flood has burried himself at the bottom of a ruck??

I noticed in T2 that Flood was in a lot of rucks and we lost our shape in attack. I noticed that JJ was at first receiver a bit and while he did fine with excellent hands this cannot have been the plan.

Goode has 10 experience and skills and can read play so i expect to see this.

[Biltong]

Tuilagi still needs development in my view, he is still very raw and is using basic natural talent and power to do his thing.

He made good meters in the First test, but yet in 11 runs he had got turned over 3 times, made only one offload and got penalised twice. He only completed 6 tackles and missed 2.

In the second test this time at 12, he only made 6 runs, crucially though didn't get turned over once, but never offloaded in the tackle and missed 3 out of 10 attmepted tackles.

So his distribution is still under par and even though he is a powerful guy, misses far too many tackles, oddly though on the Australian Website for the stats I am using (most comprehensive site I might add) it shows he made no line breaks in the two tests.

[ChequeredJersey]

Decent team, odd bench as expected. Nice to let Goode start, he's a good player. I think Marler will make more of an impact as a sub anyway. Manu at 12 I don't agree with but I understand. Barritt on the bench though increases my belief that Lancaster has no idea how to use subs. He isn't an impact player, he's a starter or nothing. He covers 12, really, but I guess Foden is covering 15, JJ wing, Manu 13. Interesting to see if Goode gets any time at 10. I think that backrow will get seriously hurt but with the players available, uninjured and on tour we can't do much better

[ChequeredJersey]

Also, Mears?

[Knackeredknees]

Tri
I would like to think Jamie George will be fighting for the starting hooker position by then, after all he is learning from two of the best hookers around.

But then I would be happy for no sarries players to be there so fans will be scratching their heads on who to place the blame on when we underperform.

[fa0019]

Interesting side chosen by ENG. I remember Goode being crushed by Tuilagi last season I think... I hope his tackling has improved since then.

How is Goode with his ball to hand kicking? Better than Foden?

Tuilagi could be awesome with someone who cuts good lines for him. A lot of it is down to him however... he doesn't hit the ball at full pace, he trys to out muscle players rather than run at gaps.
Nonu was similar at start of career but he now cuts great lines and therefore gets better yardage.

[Knackeredknees]

Fa
His kicking from hand is very good, as for him being crushed? Show me a fullback that hasn't. But his tackling is very good and very strong, he won't let us down on that bit

[formerly known as Sam]

Not happy with the centre partnership, it's to young and to raw. The second test highlighted how much an older experienced defender is needed as Joseph offered very little and Manu was largely kept out the game. Joseph should be on the bench for impact with Manu at 13 (his proper position) and Barritt at 12 where he has done well in an England shirt.

Pleased to see Goode at fullback as he is a classy player.

Tuilagi still needs development in my view, he is still very raw and is using basic natural talent and power to do his thing.

He made good meters in the First test, but yet in 11 runs he had got turned over 3 times, made only one offload and got penalised twice. He only completed 6 tackles and missed 2.

Agree that Manu is still very raw and at just 21 that isn't a big suprise, he's been up against two top class experienced centres who have made life difficult but he's done well. I'd imagine the missed tackles were where he's made a hit and the players gone backwards and bounced out of his grasp. That's happened more than a couple of times in his career. The turnovers is due more to the useless support offered by our forwards so far this summer. The Boks are regularly beating us to our breakdowns, especially when we have ball carriers breaking the line, we are basically shooting ourselves in the foot. It's normally Croft's job to be the support man in the backs and Johnson just isn't covering that role.

How is Goode with his ball to hand kicking? Better than Foden?

Good enough that his second position is 10 fa0019. He may lack a touch of pace but he has great footwork and footballing skills. He is Geordan Murphy esque in his playing style so expect him to offer a secondary playmaker as well mixing up big counter attacks with clever kicking. You are right in that he isn't the biggest guy going so he may be run over by the bigger boys (to be fair who stops someone like Manu head on, 2m out and at full pace?).

[Triangulation]

Tuilagi still needs development in my view, he is still very raw and is using basic natural talent and power to do his thing.

He made good meters in the First test, but yet in 11 runs he had got turned over 3 times, made only one offload and got penalised twice. He only completed 6 tackles and missed 2.

In the second test this time at 12, he only made 6 runs, crucially though didn't get turned over once, but never offloaded in the tackle and missed 3 out of 10 attmepted tackles.

So his distribution is still under par and even though he is a powerful guy, misses far too many tackles, oddly though on the Australian Website for the stats I am using (most comprehensive site I might add) it shows he made no line breaks in the two tests.

I object to your use of the word "still" it implies that he has had more than enough time or too much time already! He is a baby in rugby terms.

FA

In answer to your question Alex Goode can play 10 and is a very good footballer. He has excellent catching, kicking and passing skills better kicking than Foden yes.

I can see why he is in.

We have 4 dangerous strike runners in our backline now ........

Manu, Joseph, Ashton and Foden.

While Care and Flood can snipe they are predominantly passers/ facilitators as you would expect in their positions.

Alex Goode at 15 makes up for Manu's lack of footballing ability and can hopefully create and pass some of the strike runners into dangerous positions.

I expect to see Goode linking up well with the wingers and also stepping into first receiver in phase play if Flood is at the bottom of a ruck after a snipe etc.

[Knackeredknees]

I would like to think the back three will be used very much as the 2003 were under SCW, where they covered each others position if one was at the bottom of a ruck.

Ashton has quite an underrated kicking game so won't just run into trouble.

All we need is 1-8 to put in a good shift give us dime front foot ball and lut us run at them

[Guest]

The only missing player I can think of who hasn't been mention yet is Calum Clark, who's serving a lengthy ban. its not clear whether he'll be back in the England fold though.

[Triangulation]

....and of course the collateral benefit of this is that Flood can snipe at will without fear of who will play 1st receiver.

With Goode stepping in there Joseph can stay out at 13 where he will cause maximum damage.

As always the battle will be won and lost in the pigs but IF our oaks can give us front foot ball we will be better equipped to hurt the boks than we were in T2.

Finally IF my Auntie had a man sausage she would be my uncle.

[Rugby Uberlord]

Suggested starting XV for AI's:

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Atwood
Lawes
Croft
Robshaw
Waldrom/ Morgan
Youngs
Flood
Sharples/ Benjamin/ May
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Marler
Harden (no one else at mo, Wilson??)
T Youngs/ Webber
Garvey
Wood
Care
Farrell
Brown

Not too happy re impact aspect of bench in backs.

Is this our strongest?

[gregortree]

Biltong,
Interesting stats on Tuilagi, as these bear out my previously (subjective) judgment of him. I'm a Tui fan I must add at this point. But why will he not try a pass or two ? He is young and developing, I do not object to use of the word 'still'. He has only just been tried once in the 12 berth, which may not be his best position ultimately. But I think his impact as a young England player shows immense promise. He can become even better yet if his passing skills and instincts are developed off & on the pitch. This is the area I have found frustrating about him so far.

[Guest]

Suggested starting XV for AI's:

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Atwood
Lawes
Croft
Robshaw
Waldrom/ Morgan
Youngs
Flood
Sharples/ Benjamin/ May
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Marler
Harden (no one else at mo, Wilson??)
T Youngs/ Webber
Garvey
Wood
Care
Farrell
Brown

Not too happy re impact aspect of bench in backs.

Is this our strongest?

Joseph and Armitage missing from that. Otherwise it looks about right.

[Rugby Uberlord]

Where would you put Joseph?

[Biltong]

gregortree, I see Tri has taken exception to me using the word "still"

I will use my get out of jail free card here and say it is the way we talk over here as Afrikaners and no context or exception should be taken from that statement.

As for his promise I agree, have no issue with that, the question was asked about his performace so I merely used the stats available and my impression of him in the two tests (and those of the six nations)

[gregortree]

I hope his coaches look at the stats too.

[Knackeredknees]

Suggested starting XV for AI's:

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Atwood
Lawes
Croft
Robshaw
Waldrom/ Morgan
Youngs
Flood
Sharples/ Benjamin/ May
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Marler
Harden (no one else at mo, Wilson??)
T Youngs/ Webber
Garvey
Wood
Care
Farrell
Brown

Not too happy re impact aspect of bench in backs.

Is this our strongest?

Joseph and Armitage missing from that. Otherwise it looks about right.

Would have J George ahead of Webber and no place for Goode?

See the futures looking bright, we have an abundance of talent across the board(ok TH is an issue)

[Rugby Uberlord]

Maybe I haven't seen enough of George, this is for AI's 2012, but he doesn't seem to look ready yet.

Guys, you're saying Joseph, Goode, just tell me whom you would replace?

[ChequeredJersey]

Well I'd start Brown or drop Brown- not a bench player

[Knackeredknees]

George will be starting most of the games this season with Brits coming on at around the 60 min mark when the game is broken and more suited to his open field play and pace. And yes I think he is ready.

That's the problem they are more than good enough but there is no reason to drop Brown or Tuilagi, unless they have shockers at the start of the season/injury

[Rugby Uberlord]

Happy to drop Brown, so Goode? Is he much different?

[Knackeredknees]

Or unless Goode plays a blinder on saturday

[Knackeredknees]

Happy to drop Brown, so Goode? Is he much different?

Not as much pace but has the ability to play first receiver and vary the attack more, got a good boot on him and can tick from the t ok. His tacking is pretty good as well.

But still one more test and two months of the season before the AI

[Rugby Uberlord]

Yeah I just mean gut instincts/ opinions from where we are today to where we may be in the Autumn. Was interested on opinions re what core we all agree is developing.

Clearly still 3 years away from the world cup and I feel it's important to get the core in now, and then the others can be tinkered.

[Triangulation]

Getting of topic here.

Biltong's fault

Querry -

Can a side ever win with as many as 6 changes to the starting lineup even if those changes are good ones?!??!

[Knackeredknees]

I know we need a settled side, but also we have to have players ready to step in and we will know they are ready and good enough to slot in with out having to change the game plan

[Rugby Uberlord]

I would love to know what our game plan is.

[Biltong]

I would love to know what our game plan is.

Run the ball, kick the ball, tackle the runner, kick the goals, you know your average day on the rugby pitch.

[Rugby Uberlord]

Biltong, you missed your true vocation in life.

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