Ireland vs New Zealand, 3rd Test: Teams & Build Up

Predict the score of the game. We all know how close the Irish came last week, can they deliver a result to stamp themselves into the history books. Could New Zealand kick it up a gear and get there hat trick. Discuss.

Ireland team has been announced;

15 Rob Kearney
14 Fergus McFadden
13 Brian O'Driscoll (c)
12 Paddy Wallace
11 Keith Earls
10 Johnny Sexton
9 Conor Murray
8 Peter O'Mahony
7 Sean O'Brien
6 Kevin McLaughlin
5 Dan Tuohy
4 Donnacha Ryan
3 Mike Ross
2 Rory Best
1 Cian Healy

Replacements; Sean Cronin, Declan Fitzpatrick, Donncha O'Callaghan, Chris Henry, Eoin Reddan, Ronan O'Gara, Andrew Trimble

The injured Heaslip and D'Arcy are replaced by Munsters Peter O'Mahony and the experienced Ulster 12 Paddy Wallace, who flew out just this week having been left out of the initial touring party. The fit again Keith Earls replaces Andrew Trimble on the wing.

New Zealand, on the other hand, are missing the influential number 8 Kieran Read and their world class talisman Dan Carter to injury. McCaw moves to 8, whilst Sam Cane and Aaron Cruden are promoted from the bench. They hand a debut to Luke Romano in the second row and bring Hosea Gear and Ben Smith into the back three whilst Liam Messam starts in place of Adam Thomson at blindside to complete a highly mobile back row.

15 Israel Dagg
14 Ben Smith
13 Conrad Smith
12 Sonny Bill Williams
11 Hosea Gear
10 Aaron Cruden
9 Aaron Smith
8 Richie McCaw (c)
7 Sam Cane
6 Liam Messam
5 Samuel Whitelock
4 Luke Romano
3 Owen Franks
2 Andrew Hore
1 Tony Woodcock

Replacements: 16 Keven Mealamu, 17 Ben Franks, 18 Brodie Retallick, 19 Adam Thomson, 20 Piri Weepu, 21 Beauden Barrett, 22 Tamati Ellison.

Notch do you want to throw the NZ team in here and the rest of usual stuff and turn this into the game day thread?

blackcanelion wrote:Notch do you want to throw the NZ team in here and the rest of usual stuff and turn this into the game day thread?

Sure, will update it accordingly.

The absence of Darren Cave and Wallace going straight to 12 is a strange one given the initial squad selection. But Wallace was a bit unlucky in the first place. Retaining McFadden on that right wing is also a bit odd for me.

There's an opportunity there if we can replicate last weeks intensity for another 80 minutes. I expect the All Blacks to improve so we'll need to be damn near perfect and have a wee bit of luck to boot. But there's a chance. The All Blacks are missing two world class, game-breaking players. They have many others. But this is it for a generation; how far can a smouldering sense of injustice, inexperienced opposition halfbacks and the knowledge this is our last chance take us?

Notch wrote:The All Blacks are missing two world class, game-breaking players. They have many others. But this is it for a generation; how far can a smouldering sense of injustice, inexperienced opposition halfbacks and the knowledge this is our last chance take us?

This is actually what I love about supporting the All Blacks. All these new guys will have all this tradition drummed into them but it is the raw thrill of getting out onto the field as an All Black- particularly when theres several new at one time, up against it when a superior team nearly lost to the same team a week later.

The thinking is that this inexperience will count against them but I believe in reality... putting that jersey on for the first time... creates Gods!

Guys, I'm making this a sticky so it's up the top.

Thanks Linebreaker,
Its difficult enough at the best of times, and when the irish guys get up in the morning the threads will be all over the shop like a dogs breakfast.

I cant make my mind up on this AB team, whether its founded on risk, negligence or desperation.

I think its none of the above. Strategic. I think they genuinely believe this team can win. But they've got more than one eye on the future. They are introducing a lot of 23-24 year old or younger players, who should be in their mid to late 20's by the time the world cup comes around.

The reality is that we have a number of players who may not make it through to the world cup. Many if not all of the following are likely to be gone by 2015: Hore, Mealamu, B Franks, Wookcock, A Williams, Thomson, McCaw, Carter and C Smith. It's about building a player base for the next 4 years. The other issue is they need to bring players into their system prior to the rugby championship. Its going to take a fair sized squad to cope with the demands of that tournament and potential loses through injury in the remaining super 15 games.

I expect Ireland to start to do the same over the next 12 months. The side they are putting out is made up of players in their mid to lat 20's and early 30's. I think they'll have to significantly change their squad in the coming few years to be competitive in 2015.

blackcanelion wrote:
I expect Ireland to start to do the same over the next 12 months. The side they are putting out is made up of players in their mid to lat 20's and early 30's. I think they'll have to significantly change their squad in the coming few years to be competitive in 2015.

I couldnt agree more BC, in fact, I reckon Ireland should get them all out there on Saturday!

Whaddya think Rodders?

McFadden was retained based on last weeks performance which was much more assured. He addition of Earls gives us an out and out finisher on the wing without having to throw a newbie in there. Happy enough with the other two changes. I think the ABs will miss Reid who was fantastic in the last two tests. I hope their restarts suffer.

Mickado wrote:McFadden was retained based on last weeks performance which was much more assured. He addition of Earls gives us an out and out finisher on the wing without having to throw a newbie in there. Happy enough with the other two changes. I think the ABs will miss Reid who was fantastic in the last two tests. I hope their restarts suffer.

Without Carter's pinpoint kickoffs the restarts will be different all right. Though Cruden has had 3 weeks in camp with Grant Fox, possibly the best restart kicker I've ever seen. I'm not sure about mccaw at 8, I'd prefer messam there with McCaw 6. Sam Cane should be exciting, while I'm excited to see Luke Romano, a "proper" Tasman lad (technically Ben franks is Tasman but never actually gets to play).

One thing about Kidney, he will always give us something to discuss.

PW straight in the centre. Earls fit again so the Earls/BOD experiment of the first test has been abandoned.
Trimble out and McFadden still starting ahead of him in Trimbles favoured position.

Probably been mentioned plenty already but what going on with these decisions? If Darren cave wasnt figured to be next in line, then why was he taken in the squad ahead of Paddy Wallace?
Or does Kidney see there being some benefit in players development by allowing them to be involved in an international squad without any intention of playing them.
Or has Cave seriously underwhelmed Kidney in training in the past few weeks.

And then theres the Earls replacing Trimble instead of Fergus decision. Anyone else looking at the the team sheets for the three tests would assume McFadden has been a solid standout player to avoid all the disruption going on in the positions around him...

Kiwi, who's Ben Smith? I've not heard of him.

The strength in depth the AB's have is quite amazing. I'd almost forgotten about Gear.

Mickado wrote:McFadden was retained based on last weeks performance which was much more assured. He addition of Earls gives us an out and out finisher on the wing without having to throw a newbie in there. Happy enough with the other two changes. I think the ABs will miss Reid who was fantastic in the last two tests. I hope their restarts suffer.

But was he better than Trimble? I didnt particularly feel either of them did much wrong. But you have to question how he survives to fight another day, But Zebo and Trimbles performances were deemed to be below par?

We have to admit, sometimes Kidney just prefers players, and its obviously not based on performance, because we are ALL WATCHING the same performances.

Mickado
Fullback,wing who plays for the Highlanders....no relation to the centre or the half back, but they are coded as in A,B.C......

I'm surprised with this team. Don't get me wrong, I rate Paddy Wallace but I never expected him to start this test. When I seen him named I thought earls wasn't fit enough for the squad, only to realise he's replaced Trimble on the wing.

I really thought it would be either earls or cave. This is a huge step up for Wallace considering he hadn't played for a month, and as the others found out in the first test, it's hard to adjust to the pace of the game straight up. I'm disappointed for Trimble, I know our wingers haven't seen much ball, but for me, he looks strong and solid and I would have liked to have seen that physically utilised more this week.

Pom is better suited 8, I don't think he'll let anyone down, but he'll have big boys to fill. Heaslip was great last week, regardless of what people say. He never stopped running, tackling or talking, I think we were reminded just how good and important he is to us when he's on song.

Good team, strange call to throw Paddy straight in. Obviously Kidney wasn't impressed with what he's seen from Keith Earls and Darren Cave in the first test.

It makes you wonder why Cave and Zebo where brought out here in the first place if the management didn't feel they were up to it?

Clearly the management also see McFadden as a winger and emergency 13 only, so I guess he can forget about succeeding D'arcy at inside centre, which seems bizarre as he's clearly better in the latter position that the former two (positions).

Delighted for Paddy as he's played so well but I can't possibly see how he will be up to speed to play at this level. He hasn't played an international since the RWC and it took everyone else two tests to adapt to the pace that the ABs play at. Paddy is a good player but this is a huge gamble and a big ask to jump straight in against SBW and Smith.

Anyways that apart this is the strongest team we can put out so fingers crossed we can replicate and even improve on the performance of last weekend.

I'm not as confident as I was but I suppose I'll have to show some blind faith that there is a good reason behind this call......

Believe

Rodders if we are to get hammered by 40 points as some suggest it's better for the coach to have Paddy to blame than his youngfella Earls .....

Mickado wrote:Kiwi, who's Ben Smith? I've not heard of him.

He's an Otago and Highlanders fullback. he has played there for a couple of years. Didn't get much game time when Dagg was down there. He's played 4 games for the AB's as a replacement and also represented NZ at 7's, I think he was in Delhi. he's also a former age group rep. He member of the 2007 under 21 side with Colin Slade, George Pisi (now playing for Samoa), Lelia Mesaga, Owen Franks and Sekope Kepu (now playing for Australia) and others. He's a player in the Cory Jane mold (i.e. can take the high ball, kick and is a nippy runner.

Hammered? With no Carter and no Read you lot should smell blood.

Ben Smith is a bit similar to Cory Jane in that he's a fullback playing on the wing-he'll be industrious and good under the high ball plus he can kick. Is pretty toey but doesn't have the X factor Jane has nor the ability to set up people around him as well as Jane. It's playing the percentages though. Also balances the back three with Gear on the other wing. Expect a big game from Gear who was on the verge of leaving. Good reward for him.

Expecting Ireland to attack Cruden's channel naturally. He won't shirk but again it's a case of making the advantage line.

McCaw's great in the air too so expect him to fill Read's role. Hopefully Cruden can put it on a sixpence like Carter.

What's the weather like in the Tron?

Heaslip and D'Arcy are big losses. I don't rate D'Arcy but man did he do a job on Saturday.

Taylorman wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:
I expect Ireland to start to do the same over the next 12 months. The side they are putting out is made up of players in their mid to lat 20's and early 30's. I think they'll have to significantly change their squad in the coming few years to be competitive in 2015.

I couldnt agree more BC, in fact, I reckon Ireland should get them all out there on Saturday!

Whaddya think Rodders?

maybe not on Saturday Taylorman....

I think we're pretty conservative over here. If new guys come in it will be in dribs and drabs or at the expense of established players due to injury. For example we've seen Peter O'Mahoney establish himself as the 4th backrower, Conor Murray nail down the SH spot and Donnacha Ryan (albeit 28) and Dan Touhy (26?) leapfrog Donnacha O'Callaghan and Leo Cullen in the second row pecking order. Zebo and few other backline players are knocking on the door and look set to replace some of the older guys like D'arcy who will drop out in the next few seasons.

Changes are happening, albeit slowly and when everyone is fit there are a fair few old stagers yet. I'd guess we will have a fairly familiar looking squad come the 2015 RWC and quite a few 30+ players in there still but with a few new faces in place of the old stagers.

Is that the best way to do things?...well we'll find out in 2015 though, but honestly all I care about is winning on Saturday!

Rava wrote:Rodders if we are to get hammered by 40 points as some suggest it's better for the coach to have Paddy to blame than his youngfella Earls .....

Oh you're a cynical man Rava! Must be the weather.... here have a on me!

Ireland by 1-3 points, Paddy Wallace to score the winning try ! SUFTUM!

Can't wait for this. Both teams missing some big players!

I think Carter will be an absolutley massive blow for NZ but Cruden has been playing will for the Chiefs. Also McCaw hasn't looked comfortable at 8 when I've seen him.

I just hope we do ourselves justice after last week and keep that same tempo/intensity because NZ will be up for this.

What we mustn't do though is feel that this is weaker ABs side.

Gear in particular could give McFadden a lot of trouble. The ABs have huge depth and the players coming in will be hungry to prove a point. Savea was shaky under the high ball last week so we may have to adjust our tactics.

The changes probably will help us but we'll still need to give the performances of our lives to stay within touching distance.

Rodders, Would it help if we played our injured Players?

Laurie I don't think it would help if you played the Baby blacks mate.....

No I just mean physcologically its important not to feel we have a better chance because Carter is not there. In reality we probably do but its important not to approach it that way.

On paper this is still a fantastic side and whoever pulls on an AB jersey will front up. In some ways this side could prove even more dangerous.....

rodders wrote:Good team, strange call to throw Paddy straight in. Obviously Kidney wasn't impressed with what he's seen from Keith Earls and Darren Cave in the first test.

More likely BOD wants to play 13.

It makes you wonder why Cave and Zebo where brought out here in the first place if the management didn't feel they were up to it?

Clearly the management also see McFadden as a winger and emergency 13 only, so I guess he can forget about succeeding D'arcy at inside centre, which seems bizarre as he's clearly better in the latter position that the former two (positions).

Earls is better than both Trimble & Zebo. Its about getting your best team out there.

How were they ever going to find out if they didn't try them? As for McFadden - best cover at the moment on (Tommy's) wing.

Delighted for Paddy as he's played so well but I can't possibly see how he will be up to speed to play at this level. He hasn't played an international since the RWC and it took everyone else two tests to adapt to the pace that the ABs play at. Paddy is a good player but this is a huge gamble and a big ask to jump straight in against SBW and Smith.

He is also an unknown quantity - keeps them all guessing. Would expect ROG on shortly after half time and Sexton to move over to 12.

Anyways that apart this is the strongest team we can put out so fingers crossed we can replicate and even improve on the performance of last weekend.

I'd be hopeful that with a bit of luck, we can give them a game.

True Rodders. Cruden is a bloody good 10 and it's important for Ireland not to underestimate him just because the best 10 in the game is injured. He's actually pretty destructive with offloads himself so Ireland really have to watch out for both him and SBW in that area.

Was impressed with Cane too. I'm sure Romano will do ok as well.

Rodders what do you think about O'Mahony at 8? From what I've seen I quite like him as a 7.

Disney O'Mahoney is the obvious choice at 8, I personally think he's better there and O'Brien is playing very well at 7. McLaughlin did well last week at 6 so it makes sense to make minimal changes to the backrow. Heaslip is a big loss but O'Mahoney will bring pleny of aggression and dynamism in attack, he's good in the lineout too so its an obvious call imo.

rodders wrote:Laurie I don't think it would help if you played the Baby blacks mate.....

No I just mean physcologically its important not to feel we have a better chance because Carter is not there. In reality we probably do but its important not to approach it that way.

On paper this is still a fantastic side and whoever pulls on an AB jersey will front up. In some ways this side could prove even more dangerous.....

What you say is quite correct, I had the benefit as a player to be coached by some guys who could be well described as craftsmen of the game, when we knew a particular player of high regard,like a rep player, in the opposition was injured we were taught that didnt make us any stronger, but it was usual practise for us to address the situation as a possible point for us to attack, and it would not just form a small part of our game plan, but also deliberate moves, We were only stronger by what we did, not the absence of a member of the opposition.

Spot on Laurie, and as you say the coaches and players will have been analysing the past two games and focusing on the likes of Carter, Reid and Savea...McCaw at 7 etc. so the new faces brings new challenges and unknowns.

We'll have to adapt very quick here.

I'm a bit surprised McF is still there but otherwise it's not bad. People have been clamouring for Wallace for a while so let's see what he can do.

Thomond wrote:I'm a bit surprised McF is still there but otherwise it's not bad. People have been clamouring for Wallace for a while so let's see what he can do.

Thomond Wallace will bring a lot to the team but the squad have been working together now for about a month and will have set plays and routines worked out and throwing someone in a few days before a game is risky and to me its a slap in the face to those that have been there too and Im sure demoralising that theyve been putting the work and now being passed over

Quite happy with this team i have to say.

I'd agree with more a less all the calls.
We saw in the 2nd test that BOD at 13 with another at 12 is the most effective centre pairing we have in attack and defence. I thought McFadden would play 12 but am glad Wallace is in.

Delighted Earls is on the wing I think he was born to play there and could be an outstanding winger.

Personally don't get the McFadden criticism, I think he was better than Zebo and Trimble and was somewhat used as a scapegoat in the 1st test because all the tries were on his wing (although none were his fault).

I agree that Cave must have got a huge slap for Wallace coming out and then taking a starting spot. Earls and McFadden I'm sure feel a bit aggrieved too and I think this definitely means that under Kidney we will not see McFadden start at 12 for Ireland

Think POM is set up to have a great game from 8, looking forward to seeing him there.

Ross vs Fitzpatrick must have been a close call I'd say.

marty2086 wrote:Thomond Wallace will bring a lot to the team but the squad have been working together now for about a month and will have set plays and routines worked out.

There's precious little evidence of this in the backs to be fair.

McFadden ships some blame for the tries. I don't recall a single good performance he has had for Ireland. Zebo showed more in the first game in attack then McFadden has for the tour.

I expect "sick note" Paddy Wallace to have his head bandaged up before the end of the Haka!!

Why is the criticism of Paddy Wallace always based on peoples perception and never reality?

Here's a guy who's had to leave a family holiday to fly halfway around the world and join up with the squad with only a few days to prepare. He's making sacrifices to be there, and thats nothing remarkable because it's his job. But all he gets is dogs abuse for it.

It makes no sense.

Thomond wrote:I'm a bit surprised McF is still there but otherwise it's not bad. People have been clamouring for Wallace for a while so let's see what he can do.

Thomand, I'm pretty sure since the 6 Nations, everyone (including Ulster fans) had pretty much assumed and accepted the fact that paddy was done with Ireland.

The clamouring you are referring to must be from quite a while ago. I havnt seen much lately. I think he is a great 12, and I believe he will do well, but i was happy to see that Kidney had been trying new things. This stinks of him getting cold feet.

The three tests line-ups clearly show a gradual progression from new thinking slipping back into saving face.

We are all thinking like Kidney and not complaining because we have got carried away and hoping beyond hope for a win.

Give it a few weeks and yet again and we will all be asking for Darcy and Wallace days to be over, and Zebo/Gilroy to get chances they deserve.

There's been one comment Notch. You're being a bit dramatic. It's asking a lot of Paddy to slot in straight away and makes you wonder why Deccie didn't bring him in the first place. He is a very solid guy who we know can do a job.

Yes, the problem still remains there is no younger 12 coming through. Just D'Arcy and Wallace. So either we move BOD to 12 or it's one of them.

I'm disappointed the BOD to 12 experiment has been abandoned so quickly. But at the same time Wallace has had a very good season and Earls is a better winger than centre.

Thomond wrote:McFadden ships some blame for the tries. I don't recall a single good performance he has had for Ireland. Zebo showed more in the first game in attack then McFadden has for the tour.

In fairness Thomond, and I gave McFadden a fair slating after the 1st test, I thought he did fairly well last week.

I still doubt his defence and he'll be up against an even better opponent this week imo, but fair dues he did enough to retain his place.

Thomond wrote:It's asking a lot of Paddy to slot in straight away and makes you wonder why Deccie didn't bring him in the first place. He is a very solid guy who we know can do a job.

Yes, this makes the initial selection look very strange indeed. Can't help but feel it would be better if he had been with the squad these past few weeks. They left him because they wanted to look at Earls and Cave. One defeat and the panic button was hit and the idea was abandoned.

If they genuinely believed in that option as the best one to pursue, they should back their original decision. If not they shouldn't have only travelled with one out and out 12 in the first place.

Notch wrote:
I'm disappointed the BOD to 12 experiment has been abandoned so quickly.

I don't think it has, I think we'll see it in the second half like we did last week. BOD needs time to adjust and he and Earls didn't click at all in the first test. I think that combination will take a while to gel and perhaps this isn't the game to try it.

Thomond wrote:There's been one comment Notch. You're being a bit dramatic. It's asking a lot of Paddy to slot in straight away and makes you wonder why Deccie didn't bring him in the first place. He is a very solid guy who we know can do a job.

Not at all Thomond. Its the manner of the comment. We could do without them here I'm sure you will agree.

Are ye talking about my comment about Wallace having his head bandaged??

That was a joke....................in fact i expect Wallace to definately get through the first 10 minutes without some part of his anatomy being disfigured!!

John Cregan wrote:I expect "sick note" Paddy Wallace to have his head bandaged up before the end of the Haka!!