England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

I don't disagree with you. Why wasn't he criminally charged, then? Or why didn't they at least ban him for the maximum possible term? I'm not being facetious - genuinely, why? There has to have been a different interpretation of the incident, surely? Because the punishment is staggeringly insufficient for the incident you describe.

Well Adam, generally the clubs go by a rule of what goes on, on the pitch is left up to the disciplinary committee to deal with. Otherwise all hell would break loose and they'd be law suits and police investigations all over the shop. Cockers came out and said it was distasteful incident and that Tigers trusted in the disciplinary committee to handle it correctly, that was then slammed by Mallinder because he claimed Cockers was trying to drop his player in it, I mean come on Jim.

Blackett rebuffed Clark's representitives suggestions that 3 months (the expected recovery time of Hawkins) was a decent ban length and instead issued a 64 week ban. Which through some slight fabrication (no previous card in the last five years according to Clark's lawyer, a red card was shown to him almost exactly five years ago for a headbutt in the JWC final) and a big sob story from Clark about how he felt bad and had tried to apologise post game only for Hawkins and his Tigers team mates to tell him where to stick it. Saw him allowed the 50% deduction for previous good behaviour and the 32 weeks enforced. It wasn't suspended through the AP off season as he was expected to make the squad to SA and that banning him for that was seen as a good deterrent.

From that EPS - I would select,
Corbis, Hartley, Cole
Lawes, Palmer
Wood, Robshaw, Waldrom
Care
Flood
Sharples
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton
Foden


Starting Saxons would be -
Mullan, T.Youngs, Catt
Deacon, Robson
Gibson, Kevesic, Fearns
Simpson
Ford
Benjamin
Twelvetrees
Lowe
May/Wade
Abendanon/Miller

Carpe Diem wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I too will transfer allegiance to Scotland if Clarke pulls on the shirt anytime soon. I believe in 2nd chances, but come on, you've got to earn them. How p'ed off must Care and Armitage be feeling right no looking at Clarke's name on the list?

So it's decided then, we'll become McCarpe Diem and McChequered Jersey if Clarke pulls on the red rose. You saw it here first folks!!

You're in grand company with MacVisser, lads

I'm still a Lancaster supporter but I think he has made a number of mistakes with his selection. I'm willing to be proved wrong though!

In all my disecting of the squad infront of me - I missed the fact that there is no
Steff. Armitage! T14 player of the season is overlooked - perhaps RFU couldnt come to an agreement about release in international windows.

Attwood - no mention at all. Is the future of England 2nd row Launchbury? Deacon is getting on a bit. Gaskell hasnt really stepped up. Where are all the young locks. How come Hudson has never had recognition?

Armitage falls outside of the EPS setup, so his omission from this announcement doesn't necessarily mean that he won't appear.

propdavid_london wrote:In all my disecting of the squad infront of me - I missed the fact that there is no
Steff. Armitage! T14 player of the season is overlooked - perhaps RFU couldnt come to an agreement about release in international windows.

Attwood - no mention at all. Is the future of England 2nd row Launchbury? Deacon is getting on a bit. Gaskell hasnt really stepped up. Where are all the young locks. How come Hudson has never had recognition?

Good point on Steffon, Mawhis. Though SL has back rowers coming out of his ears at the moment.

As far as second rows go, there was an intriguing comment from SL on ESPN:

"There are also some exciting players just on the cusp of the squads such as Tom Homer, Charlie Matthews, Tom Heathcote and Elliot Daly, who we are really looking forward to seeing develop in the next 12 months and beyond."

Matthews was only in his first senior season last year and was out injured for the second half of it. He impressed me, but must seriously have impressed Lancaster to be named as a contender (presumably for the Saxons) so early. He's a big unit (big enough to fill in for Olly Kohn) but also athletic enough to be a lineout option.

Ah, I had forgotten that little clause - poorfour, thanks for reminding me. I would like to see Steffon given another crack, even if only against Fiji.

Charlie Matthews - hopefully he will get more gametime. If Robson gets drafted into the EPS and following Vajellos's move to Wales.

propdavid_london wrote:Charlie Matthews - hopefully he will get more gametime. If Robson gets drafted into the EPS and following Vajellos's move to Wales.

As long as he's fit, I think he would have been getting game time anyway, even if only as a replacement for Danger or Olly on 60 minutes. Here's hoping he delivers on last season's promise.

My 32 would have been as follows;

Props;
Cole/ Corbs/ Marler / Hardin

Hookers
Hartley, Youngs, Webber.

Second Row;
Parling, Lawes, Garvey, Attwood.

Back Row;
Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Morgan, Haskell, Kvesic.

Scrum Half
Care, Youngs, Dickson

Fly Half
Flood, Farrell, Ford

Centre
Manu, Allen, Joseph, Barritt

Back 3
Ashton, Foden, Goode, May, Sharples.

I amazed that Dowson is in the original squad. Overlooking Attwood and Garvey completely is very surprising especially after the summer tour showed we need more grunt/ ball carriers in the 2nd row.
Matt Stevens should have not been included.
Why does the squad have 3 inside centres as well as Farrell??
One other thing that is apparent is that England need a quality back up tight head to Cole.. Maybe Thomas can step up to fill that gap as I am unsure that Hardin is international class..
However on the bright side it is a better squad than England have had in the last 5 years..

Where are all the young locks

PD, how about Slater and Kitchener at Tigers, Attwood at Bath, Matthews at Quins, Garvey at LI, Gaskell, Kruis at Sarries (can Wray play lock as well?), Launchbury at Wasps and Myall at Sale (though they really are featherweight at the minute) and Lawes and Day at Saints. There are options, whether they are ready to step up to international level or are in favour is another matter entirely. It is slightly worrying that of our 4 selected locks (Botha, Palmer, Parling, Lawes) 2 are over 30 and 1 is about to hit 30. Wouldn't mind seeing a younger option in there somewhere (preferably replacing Palmer or Botha).

Two names that stick out in the released squad...Stevens and Dowson.

Certainly in the case of Dowson you have to look at some of the players left out and on ability, performances for england, and age criteria ask ...why?
At least the old journeymen Johnson stuck by were world cup winners.

Sam - I meant where are all our young locks! As in, they arent in the EPS or Saxons.

Aren't Gaskell, Kitchener, Launchbury and Robson young enough for you? Robson's the old man at 26(?). Launchbury, Gaskell and Kitchener are about 21/22/23 aren't they?

For all the talk of the second rows...ive been guilty myself...maybe Lancaster is doing the right thing...

Botha, Palmer and Parling might not be the pinacle of Second rowing but they have been solid and worked their backsides off.
Maybe Lancaster...and more so Rowntree just isnt overly impressed with Attwood and Garvey and sees far more promise in the Likes of Launchbury, Kitchener, Slater, Matthews etc but wants them to get blooded in the premiership first...

Till then maybe he is happy with his grafting workhorses...who are dependable and allows him to work on building a quality front row and sort the back row out...

Why is gaskell always picked? He just seems massively light weight! Slater should have been there

You might be onto something there GF, I just hope when he gets to sorting out the second row, he makes the right decisions.

This is an awful squad. It is massively disappointing.

I've never been Lancaster's biggest fan - I didn't buy into the idea that behaving like good little schoolboys was a higher priority than winning test matches, and I didn't believe that going from 1st to 2nd in the Six Nations was a sign of improvement. Despite this, I feel that he deserves a chance to give it a good go now that he is here to stay. However this squad selection has done nothing to improve my views on him as a coach. He strikes me as nothing more than a willing amateur who is showing painful loyalty to some spectacularly inadequate players.

I am willing to abide the inclusion of slightly lesser players if they are young and show some potential - the likes of JTH (although I do still feel there are better young options in a lot of cases), but continued inclusion of older players who have shown that they are not up to standard is baffling. The obvious ones are Botha, Stevens and Dowson. They should all be a very long way from an international squad.

There are a number of other selections which bemuse me as well, despite not being quite as heinous.

Tom Johnson did relatively well in SA, given the circumstances, but now our better players are available I see no need to retain him, particularly over the younger and classier Haskell. Johnson deserved his chance in SA and will no doubt perform admirably in the future when the stronger options are unavailable, but with Croft and Wood due to return from injury and Haskell playing in England again, why is he there? He could always be drafted in if someone failed to return in time.

Waldrom did okay in the third test vs SA, and I'll accept that he may still be required as a stop gap given the fitness concerns over Morgan, but is he really one of the best 7 back row players available? And again he is not young enough to improve much further. NZ fans must be laughing - a player who struggled to get on the bench for a S15 side is supposedly one of the best 32 in England.

I find it concerning that given the vast depth in young back row talent, 3 of the EPS spots are filled by ageing journeymen who will never make a big enough positive impact at this level.

Palmer and Parling should have been replaced, as well as Botha. Parling because he is not good enough, Palmer because he is not young enough. Palmer has done very well over the years and I was often a big supporter of his, but now there are younger, potentially better players available. Parling is far too lightweight as was shown in SA, while his lineout performances have been insufficient to justify continued inclusion on that basis alone. England's lineout was pretty average in SA with Parling at the helm. As many others have mentioned, Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury, Kitchener would have all dramatically improved the squad. 3 of our 4 second rows are either has-beens or never-beens. At least 2 of these will actually have to play. Great.

I had hoped that Tom Youngs would be in ahead of, or as well as, Webber but the Saxons may still be a sensible place for him until he has been refined slightly further.

I'd have also liked to have seen another of the young flyhalves given a chance but they are both in the Saxons so at least we know they are in the selectors thoughts, shame the same can't be said for a few others.

I apologise for my negative tone so far, it was just quite a shock to get home and see some of those names in the EPS. I'll move on to a few positives...

I'm delighted Allen has been given another chance to prove his worth at the highest level. I have been a big fan of his for a long time and I hope he now gets a chance to play in the full side in his best position. I really think he could be a good long term option at 12. Twelvetrees is the other potential long termer but I agree with keeping him in the Saxons for now, letting him develop his game and get some regular game time before making the last step up.

I'm also pleased Charlie Sharples has not been forgotten having missed the summer tour, he could be a serious contender for the vacant wing berth. Hopefully he will get the opportunity to prove himself, he has all the attributes to be successful at test level.

The Saxons squad is generally pretty good, a few random picks and a few ageing players taking up a spot that could be better utilised. I'm a bit disappointed not to see Henry Trinder involved at all, he was training as an EPS player in the Six Nations and he is one who I believe could be a really classy international player.

Well Zander..in all honesty with the exception of the Farrell / Flood situation he really hasnt done that badly has he?

Yes its a work in progress...but at least we can all see that one of the major problem areas...the break down / quickball...is being fixed very comprehensively....

They need to sort out the lineout (which will be boosted with the return of Croft) sort out the Fh issue and decide on the centres...and the world cups in the bag......

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Zander..in all honesty with the exception of the Farrell / Flood situation he really hasnt done that badly has he?

Yes its a work in progress...but at least we can all see that one of the major problem areas...the break down / quickball...is being fixed very comprehensively....

They need to sort out the lineout (which will be boosted with the return of Croft) sort out the Fh issue and decide on the centres...and the world cups in the bag......

Don't forget we need to sort out the bench aswell and then we're done! World Cup here we come.

Jeff....you slag off Parling's lineout ability and bring up Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury & Kitchener as replacements??? None of which are great in the lineout at AP level never mind Int!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jeff....you slag off Parling's lineout ability and bring up Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury & Kitchener as replacements??? None of which are great in the lineout at AP level never mind Int!

I agree Sgt...Parling cant really do it all himself. Add Croft (and even Wood) to the equation and put Lawes alongside Parling and things will look quite different....

Totally agree GF, we had pretty much 1 option in that last test with Palmer a decent 2nd. SA doubled up on both our jumpers and Parling still managed to get cleanish ball plus put pressure on the SA throw.

Agree Parling isn't a huge carrier but either was Matfield, POC, Sharpe, Williams etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jeff....you slag off Parling's lineout ability and bring up Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury & Kitchener as replacements??? None of which are great in the lineout at AP level never mind Int!

I agree Sgt...Parling cant really do it all himself. Add Croft (and even Wood) to the equation and put Lawes alongside Parling and things will look quite different....

Agreed he is better than these other options purely in the lineout, but all the others are superior in the loose and still offer reasonable lineout jumping options. I don't think you can have someone in purely for the lineout unless they are brilliant, which Parling isn't. The others are better all rounders. Like you say, Croft will fill the lineout specialist role anyway, as well as being an all round top class player.

I'd like to see something along the lines of (given where our strengths lie):
4. A big bruiser, solid front jumper, someone like Attwood or Garvey
5. A dynamic athlete who is decent in the lineout and gets around the park. Lawes the obvious choice but Lauchbury could come into it
6. Croft/Wood -offers all round play and top lineout option

How many other sides pick one of their second rows just to run the lineout but not offer anything else? We've been down that painful road before with Borthwick. It was only a couple of weeks ago Parling was being absolutely battered by a pair of Springboks who were significantly younger and less experienced than him. I'm not slagging off his lineout ability, I'm saying that it doesn't make up for the other glaring deficiencies.

I'm with jeffwinger on Parling. Excellent AP player and good lineout option but does not have the all round game to be a top international.

Our lineout was a shambles with 4. Palmer 5. Botha 6. Croft in the team.

Parling was brought in to sort it out which he has. He's also in the top couple of tacklers every game....he isn't a massive carrier but either is Cole, Hartley, Botha, Palmer etc etc.

Jeff

Im just not convinced you can get by in international rugby with one key lineout jumper...as SA proved to us....we couldnt flourish with just Parling....and i dont think we'd cope with just Croft.

For the AI's id settle for....

4 Parling
5 Lawes
6 Croft.

But this relies on Morgan putting a serious shift in at 8 and supported by Robshaw, Cole, Lawes and Corbs making the hard yards...

PS Lancs has already said he is looking at Kitchener who is a big lad despite being a lineout man, and matthews who is a big lump. Add in Launchbury and Lawes and we have a young group of second rows that will have skills and power we require. It just takes a little time and patience...

Parling may not be world class but he's the best we have, until somebody else comes along I'm pretty happy with him.

What I would like to see alongside though is a big bruising 4 like Shaw which we lack.

Modern rugby is all about the gainline and Parling loses out there in defence and attack. He rarely carries over the gainline, and although yes he makes a lot of tackles, I don't see him ever knocking the ball carrier back, it always seems to be they get over the gainline and he hauls them down after they've made a few yards with him clinging on.

Who in the front 5 does any of those things?

Corbs - good scrummager, little around the park
Cole - as Corbs, good on deck
Hartley - offers little in carrying or defence
Botha - Gets stuck in a hits rucks well, doesn't carry
Palmer - getting on and rarely turns up, decent carrier and a bit of grunt
Parling - strong lineout, lacks carrying, good workrate

Everything is a mess with Botha in the team.

Lawes is a decent middle jumper given his athleticism and one of the big brutes would do fine at the front. There's no need to set so much stall on having a designated lineout maestro in the second row. If you do they have to be able to pull their weight around the park.

Parling may do ok in the tackling stats but I suspect many of these are passive tackles and he only ever goes backwards with ball in hand. We need someone to put the opposition on the back foot on attack and defence.

Parling and Lawes can't really play together as there wouldn't be enough ballast on the tighthead side of the scrum, you'd be leaving Cole with a lot to do to avoid getting stuffed. You need a lump somewhere. Lawes is a perfectly good jumper in the lineout, not much worse than Palmer. Attwood is a pretty solid front jumper, as is Garvey. Just because the other options can do other things doesn't mean they can't do the lineout work.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Who in the front 5 does any of those things?

Corbs - good scrummager, little around the park
Cole - as Corbs, good on deck
Hartley - offers little in carrying or defence
Botha - Gets stuck in a hits rucks well, doesn't carry
Palmer - getting on and rarely turns up, decent carrier and a bit of grunt
Parling - strong lineout, lacks carrying, good workrate

That is the precise reason we are dissatisfied. Therefore we are suggesting replacements who are far more likely to offer those essential abilities (Lawes, Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury).

Pooly, if you genuinely think that Corbs and Cole do little around the park me and you must be watching different games mate. They make as many tackles as Parling and carry better.

The front 5 do lots around the park - but not much carrying. We have Morgan who carries, but can only do it for 10 mins of each game. And Waldrom I guess. And Manu of course. I'd like to see Haskell in for extra ballast. But we definitely need a big SR to help out.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Pooly, if you genuinely think that Corbs and Cole do little around the park me and you must be watching different games mate. They make as many tackles as Parling and carry better.

I think the stats show that Parling makes more tackles and none of them carry that well

Carrying stats:

Parling 17,3,3
Cole 3,0,0

Pretty depressing reading there tbh

Mate, we have had this discussion before about other players and you use stats when they support your argument and dismiss them as being incorrect when they don't. I will go with the evidence of my own eyes, and Parling neither carries nor tackles effectively enough in the international arena.

I presume those stats are from www.scrum.com. If we put them in full for Parling it shows...

1st test - ran the ball 5 times for 17 metres
2nd test - ran the ball 2 times for 4 metres
3rd test - ran the ball 3 times for 2 metres

which kind of highlights the point that yes he may carry the ball, but he is not effective in doing so.

I take back the Corbs offering little, he's got pretty good stats in the 6N although a little off Parling in the tackle stakes.

None of our front 5 offer much in carrying though, Corbs is possibly the best actually.

I find that stat surprising about Cole, I am fairly certain he carried a lot more than that. However, one thing the stats don't make note of, is how good Cole is at the breakdown. He makes a huge number of turnovers. I really rate him.

At which point did I say Parling was an effective carrier?

He's a very good lineout operator and has a high workrate, I've never said he was a big carrier.

I'm not a fan at all of carrying stats as you know but you generally can't argue with tackling.

Tackling stats can be misleading as well, as is he making one on one tackles, or is he the third of three who gets there when the ball carrier is almost down anyway? In any case, nobody is arguing that he makes lots of tackles, my argument is about the effectiveness of them.

Look, I agree, if we had a beast of a 4 like Brad Thorn or Bakkies, with good ball carrying 6 and 8, then you have the best lineout option in there which would be Parling, but at present we don't have that, so you have to look at how you balance your pack to get the best out of it,, and for me with what we have available, I don't think that Parling brings the best balance of skills to maximise our packs effectiveness.

But who really does the carrying generally:

In my eyes...

Props - Im not bothered as such...i want them to beast the scrum and breakdown.

The Hooker should offer a bit more than the props...Bismark is probably the benchmark at the mo.

One second row should offer big carrying..the other whilst the lineout guy should still offer big defence and rucking...

All my back row should offer something in the ball carrying stakes...some more than others however...and i would be looking for a fit Morgan to offer a huge amount...whilst Robshaw offers a bit and Croft more out wide...

Lot of 'shoulds' in there GF, but the thing is if you don't have carriers in the traditional positions for it, you have to look where you do have them and pick the team accordingly.

Packs are all about balance, I'm not saying you need 8 carriers in there, but for me the balance of the England pack was not quite in SA.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Lot of 'shoulds' in there GF, but the thing is if you don't have carriers in the traditional positions for it, you have to look where you do have them and pick the team accordingly.

Packs are all about balance, I'm not saying you need 8 carriers in there, but for me the balance of the England pack was not quite in SA.

Definately...but it was both the Lineout AND carrying that we struggled in...and ironically we were very strong at the breakdown...

Tbh we lack carriers as a nation in the pack, big issue going forward

Who are the best carriers available to England? Morgan obviously is one.

The problem we have Rory is that our best carriers seem to do their best work further away from the ruck, we don't have any carriers who a monsters in tight areas and can get across the gainline with tacklers hanging off them.

Morgan can do it, but not for 80 minutes, and so can Haskell, but he's not in he senior squad, and the only EQ locks I've seen do it regularly in the AP are Garvey, who is not in either squad, and Launchbury who is in the Saxons.

Ah right, so you mean the guys who can carry through heavy traffic/the tight exchanges?

Morgan
Waldrom
Garvey
Attwood
Crane
Easter
Fearns when he gets his a$$ fit
Croft a bit further out
Youngs and Lindsay the young hookers
Launchbury
Haskell

Can Olly Kohn carry well?

Corbisiero, Marler and Hartley are all talismanic carriers for their clubs - and whilst Corbs is looking more and more comfortable at test level, and Hartley makes a lot of carries for England (albeit for less yardage than he seems to achieve for saints), they all need to start making more of an impact on internationals in this area - it's the only way we'll balance the absence of a ball carrying beast in the engine room.

Also, it's for this reason that I feel Morgan or Waldrom (like for like in many ways) are nailed on starters at 8 - we've got to have someone giving us that go-forward, regardless of percieved weaknesses in their fitness or all-round game.