England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Poorfour wrote:The challenge at 12 is in deciding what England needs and finding a 10-12-13 combination that offers the right balance.

I think the problem actually starts with 10. Farrell and Flood are both good players but I don't think either of them can run a game (yet) without the right players inside of them. Flood seems to need someone who can take a bit of pressure off him when he's not getting quick ball; Farrell needs a bit of creativity. Unfortunately, neither Mike Catt nor Will Greenwood is available, so England have tended to go for a target man who can take the ball up in traffic but isn't necessarily the creator.

At International level, that's a bit obvious unless you have someone who's pretty unstoppable - or you have a 13 outside who can make something out of the tiniest gaps. Different era, but that was essentially how the Andrew-Carling-Guscott axis worked, and it worked pretty well.

It could work for this squad, given time. In Joseph and Lowe, England have players who can and do exploit minuscule gaps. Ashton and Brown are also adept at joining the line. But it relies on finding a centre who can reliably draw the defence, get over the line and then get the ball away quickly. It also relies on the 12 and 13 having a good understanding of each others' games.

That could be Manu, but he will need to adapt his style and learn his partner's game. JTH hasn't shown much on the international stage yet - but is clearly in Lancaster's thoughts; Mark Mapletoft has said that the England setup think he could develop into a Nonu-style player (and is ahead of where Nonu was at a similar age). Based on his season for Quins last year, he's got a lot of the required skills (including a quick, flat pass) - but needs to work on his timing and decision-making (doesn't always hit the line at speed and needs to work on knowing when to pass).

Yes and no. We actually have our best 10 and our best 13 in place in messrs Flood and Tuilagi.

Those guys currently pick themselves as the best available with daylight second.

The challenge is quite simply to find a 12 that fits into that mix.

I am fairly certain that in the years 2004-2012 we had similar situations at various times with Tindall rightly holding down the 13 shirt for a time and JW, Hodgson or Flood holding the 10 shirt. Once again it was the 12 shirt that we could not fill properly.

This probably does then tend to hamstring everyone else not least the 10 in possession when he has to introduce himself to the new 12 every training session.

I thought Barritt actually played pretty well on tour, we certainly missed him defensively when he was injured. Flood/Barritt/Manu would be a good place to start for me with Joseph on the bench for impact.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I thought Barritt actually played pretty well on tour, we certainly missed him defensively when he was injured. Flood/Barritt/Manu would be a good place to start for me with Joseph on the bench for impact.

I admire Barrit's defensive organisational skills, grit and tackling ability and for his commitment and i know that he protests that he has played 10 before, but actions speak louder than words and i and others question whether he offers Key Selection Criteria for England 12 spot:

1. a running threat to trouble any international 10s or 12s or to tie in opposition back rows (this is key is were to avoid tuilagi being continually gang tackled) ; OR

2. the passing ability to get the ball to tuilagi and the backs outside him; OR

3. a kicking option.

I do hope that 36 will progress to the requisite standard because i see him as potentially ticking all the boxes.

I thought Barritt played better with Goode at 10 while Farrell was injured than in the 1st test. I'm happy for Barritt to be in the squad but we need to be looking at another 12 for back-up/competition/different (and not Tuilagi)

I'd like to see what Barritt could do with Flood at 10 as he's only played 12 with Farrell at 10 and I think the more attacking minded Flood who plays closer to the gainline will suit Barritt better.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd like to see what Barritt could do with Flood at 10 as he's only played 12 with Farrell at 10 and I think the more attacking minded Flood who plays closer to the gainline will suit Barritt better.

+1

HammerofThunor wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd like to see what Barritt could do with Flood at 10 as he's only played 12 with Farrell at 10 and I think the more attacking minded Flood who plays closer to the gainline will suit Barritt better.

+1

Englands next tests in the AI series...

Fiji
Australia
South Africa
New Zeland

(NB from now on i call on all NH supporting 606 posters to refer to the SH sides by their national titles and not by their monikers. This is part of a concerted campaign that i am leading to demystify and to strip away some of the excessive respect/awe in which they are held. This it is hoped will particularly aid our NH partners with clear psychological problems when it comes to defeating aforesaid SH nations)

But i digress.....

How long do you give the Flood, Barrit, Tuilagi midfield????

The whole AI series is sensible i suppose?

As long as they are all fit, in form and not misbehaving... on current evidence, that would be about 40 minutes. ;-)

How long do you give the Flood, Barrit, Tuilagi midfield??

Tri, I'd give them the first two games. If it is working against the Fijians and the Aussies then I'd see what they can do against the other two. We know we can front up to the Boks and I think we could have won that second test if Barritt had been alongside Manu chopping down the Bok runners. We'll certainly need the big tacklers for the last two games.

Any experimentation I would like to see come from the bench. A N Other hooker and tighthead for the Fiji game might be a good idea as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

How long do you give the Flood, Barrit, Tuilagi midfield??

Tri, I'd give them the first two games. If it is working against the Fijians and the Aussies then I'd see what they can do against the other two. We know we can front up to the Boks and I think we could have won that second test if Barritt had been alongside Manu chopping down the Bok runners. We'll certainly need the big tacklers for the last two games.

Any experimentation I would like to see come from the bench. A N Other hooker and tighthead for the Fiji game might be a good idea as well.

Yes. A tighthead! A tighthead! My kingdom for a tighthead!

Ditto for Hooker.

Is Webber the best bet? Underwhelmed.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

How long do you give the Flood, Barrit, Tuilagi midfield??

Tri, I'd give them the first two games. If it is working against the Fijians and the Aussies then I'd see what they can do against the other two. We know we can front up to the Boks and I think we could have won that second test if Barritt had been alongside Manu chopping down the Bok runners. We'll certainly need the big tacklers for the last two games.Any experimentation I would like to see come from the bench. A N Other hooker and tighthead for the Fiji game might be a good idea as well.

This is true i suppose. I would dearly love though to give them a few defensive headaches of their own.

I honestly believe that unless we do force them to be at least a little circumspect and concerned about our attacking threats, get into their heads a bit.....then well we have no chance.

Well Tri we have an excellent tighthead in Cole. Depending on who is playing well I wouldn't mind England having a closer look at Henry Thomas or revisiting PDJ and Wilson, anyone but Stevens!

Hooker, well Webber will be in front initially but Lancaster seems to like what Tom Youngs brings to the party. I note only 2 hookers named in the EPS full squad so I expect one of Gray, Brooker, Youngs or the young Sarries chap to join the squad as the third option. Webber starting and the third option on the bench for that game wouldn't be a bad call.

Barritt looked more comfortable in the third test when England started using the set 12 crash off of flat ball. Manu did it well in the first half and Barritt took over when he came on. Crashing off of the 9 but further out could be a good option as the Wallabies are not strong at 10 (or 12 if they play a secondary playmaker), the Saffas showed that Morne will go back in the tackle and if the All Blacks go the predicted Cruden/Carter 10/12 combo we should get some change out of them with a strong carry. As you said earlier tie in the opposition defence and then look to use the ball wider with Manu or the back three. I particlarly like having Goode at 15 and entering the line or blindside as an additional playmaker.

I'd give them the whole series but use the final 20-10 minutes to test out Twelvetrees, Joseph and Lowe (in different games).

Twelvetrees in particular must get some gametime so that we have an actual back up to Barritt (hopefully).

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Barritt looked more comfortable in the third test when England started using the set 12 crash off of flat ball. As you said earlier tie in the opposition defence and then look to use the ball wider with Manu or the back three. I particlarly like having Goode at 15 and entering the line or blindside as an additional playmaker.

Barritt doesn't make much ground on the crash - more than JTH to be sure, but nothing like the ground Tuilagi can make. Add in a very limited passing and kicking game and no real pace then all you are really left with is his tackling. But I belief a decent defence coach can make almost any 12-13 combo effective defensively - you don't need to pick your 12 primilary for his tackling.

Tuilagi will tie in the defence far more effectively than Barritt, then Goode can join the line and JJ can pick holes.

DaveM wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Barritt looked more comfortable in the third test when England started using the set 12 crash off of flat ball. As you said earlier tie in the opposition defence and then look to use the ball wider with Manu or the back three. I particlarly like having Goode at 15 and entering the line or blindside as an additional playmaker.

Barritt doesn't make much ground on the crash - more than JTH to be sure, but nothing like the ground Tuilagi can make. Add in a very limited passing and kicking game and no real pace then all you are really left with is his tackling. But I belief a decent defence coach can make almost any 12-13 combo effective defensively - you don't need to pick your 12 primilary for his tackling.

Tuilagi will tie in the defence far more effectively than Barritt, then Goode can join the line and JJ can pick holes.

Manu will not play 12 for Tigers so will he ever learn to play 12? Right now he takes contact badly, doesn't offload and doesn't give us quick ball. If Sarries stop mucking around with their backline combinations and back a running game more often we could see Barritt play a lot more like he did in Super Rugby.

Or Lancaster could wake up and pay 36 at 12 and then we'd get to see a bit more of our coaches attacking ideas.

yappysnap wrote:
Manu will not play 12 for Tigers so will he ever learn to play 12? Right now he takes contact badly, doesn't offload and doesn't give us quick ball. If Sarries stop mucking around with their backline combinations and back a running game more often we could see Barritt play a lot more like he did in Super Rugby.

Or Lancaster could wake up and pay 36 at 12 and then we'd get to see a bit more of our coaches attacking ideas.

What does he need to learn at 12 that he doesn't need to learn at 13? The lack of passing and off-loading is, in my opinion, at least as much a problem for him at 13 as it is at 12. He gradually improve these aspects at Tigers at 13 and be able to transfer those skills to 12. The same is true with contact skills.

I have no recollection of Barritt in Super Rugby, but he's consistently limited for Sarries and England, even with Hodgson playing flat beside him.

Hopefully 36 will start well for Gloucester.

I have no recollection of Barritt in Super Rugby, but he's consistently limited for Sarries and England, even with Hodgson playing flat beside him.

Untrue Barritt has on occasion played very well for Sarries. Go watch the games vs the Ospreys in the HEC. He was brilliant for them in that game. He was also very good in the 2009/10 season outside of Glen Jackson. He has struggled to make the required attacking impact for England because he's only played alongside Farrell who stands far too deep. When England used the 12 off of the 9 in the third test Barritt was making as much ground as Manu. Joseph is a good young talent but showed nothing in his first two starts ball in hand. Use him as a bench option.

Manu's passing isn't that bad, it isn't that good either. The main issue with him is that unless there's an obvious gap he won't pass because he'll back himself to make more ground in contact then the wingers. This is less evident at Tigers where his bro was outside or Geordan Murphy was alongside to out rank him. There's no such authority or power outside of him for England so he backs himself. His passing his also to slow for a 12, at 12 where there is less time on the ball then at 13 you need some snap to your passing if you're going to distribute otherwise you are leaving yourself open to interceptions or man and ball hits on your receiver.

Well said Sam.

Saracens have the same problems as England - finding a 12-13 combo.

If Saracens can sort it out - adopting a more attacking game then it would make Barritt more appealing and a Saracens 12-13 combo can be used for England.

I just hope that Saracens forget the Farrell experiment at 13 and don't play Wyles there either. It really damaged Saracens attacking play in my opinion.

The centre options at Saracens are Barritt,Powell,Tomkins,Stanley. Hopefully an effective centre partnership can be made out of them. Barritt-Powell of 2009/10 worked but Powell seems to have fallen out of favour.


Alternatively England could use a Leicester combo - Allen and Manu or even a Quins combo - JTH - Lowe and still yet a Gloucester one - Twelvetrees - Trinder.

I see the 12 and 13 as an unit that has to work well together.

Look at some club centre partnerships - Fofana - Rougerie for France and Clermont, Darcy and BOD for Ireland and Leinster, Nonu and Smith - Hurricanes and NZ ( I know Nonu is no longer at Hurricanes but was there for 8 years!).

I agree Beshocked, I like the idea of the centres being a unit. Certainly to begin with it could really help the team develop some attacking shape.

Any of the combinations you mention have the potential to do well on the international stage, although I think JTH is perhaps a touch limited. George Lowe however, worked extremely hard in the mid-week game when he came in at wing and looked dangerous.

Do you think we'll see Saracens start to develop Tomkins at 13 this season in the Jeff?

With regards to the squads I think Lancaster is trying to create more of a reward structure in the squads. This ties in with some of the comments regarding promoting other players outside of the squad without them actually showing much.

It's interesting to take a couple of cases in point. Firstly, Attwood was in and around the EPS for the 6N but doesn't feature anywhere. He didn't get an opportunity to play in any international games and those that did recently (Robson, Kitchener, Botha, Palmer, Parling) all played to an acceptable standard. None really had a glaringly poor game.

My view is he wants to reward effort and endeavour, creating an environment where the more work you put in the more you get out. In previous regimes it may be said that the EPS seemed fairly set in stone, younger talent was de-motivated and we lost that link between performances and recognition in some cases.

Trinder is another example. He was playing superbly for Glaws, went to train with the 6N squad then got injured. Lowe, Allen and Joseph got their chances on tour and each played fairly well. Trinder loses out, perhaps unfairly from his point of view, but in the grand scheme of things these guys did well on tour.

It seems his selections are based more on ethos and environment than immediate performance. Sometimes it won't work and sometimes it will. The problem with English rugby is that there's always so many alternatives, but by dropping and picking up players after one or two games, all we do is end up with a demotivated squad of players.

I think Haskell should have had more recognition at the expense of Dowson, but looking at it in the round I can see what he's trying to foster. I just think it's going to take a long time for him to reap any fruits from this approach.

Alternatively England could use a Leicester combo - Allen and Manu

What about Bowden - Manu?

mawhis wrote:

Alternatively England could use a Leicester combo - Allen and Manu

What about Bowden - Manu?

Or Twelvetrees and ....oh

Please no more foreigners. I like Bowden but we're trying to build an English ethos here.

Chjw131 wrote:Please no more foreigners. I like Bowden but we're trying to build an English ethos here.

With Barrit and Tuillagi?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Please no more foreigners. I like Bowden but we're trying to build an English ethos here.

With Barrit and Tuillagi?

and Hartley and Stevens and Botha and ......

Well the less Stevens has to do with the England team from now on the better, Botha maybe to. Feel a bit sorry for Botha as he was only ever brought in to do a job and his average performances have drawn a lot of flack. To be fair he makes the effort but he isn't international standard. If we removed both of those we wouldn't lose much.

To be fair to Barritt his mother was English and so may well have ingrained in him that he is English where as Manu has lived almost as long in England as in Samoa with his formative education all coming in England.

I would like to see Lowe get a chance as he's shown good form for about three seasons now. It's a little infuriating seeing Trinder then Joseph leapfrog him off the back of a handful of games.

12. Manu
13. Lowe

I don't think it's fair to put Lowe or any other 13 outside Tuilagi (and nor is it fair to Tuilagi). I'd rather Barritt or Allen play there.

Just out of curiosty of the current EPS who is going to "potentially" miss the AI's due to either being injured or still trying to get match fit etc.

Isnt it something like:

B.Youngs
T.Croft
T.Wood
J.Crane - Not in it...
M.Brown
Hasnt Robshaw had a minor op?

yappysnap wrote:I would like to see Lowe get a chance as he's shown good form for about three seasons now. It's a little infuriating seeing Trinder then Joseph leapfrog him off the back of a handful of games.

12. Manu
13. Lowe

Trinder hasn't leapfrogged him, he's not even in the combined EPS + Saxons.

mawhis wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Please no more foreigners. I like Bowden but we're trying to build an English ethos here.

With Barrit and Tuillagi?

and Hartley and Stevens and Botha and ......

I said no MORE foreigners. As Sam has pointed out we'd lose nothing from passing on Stevens and Botha. Barritt, Tuilagi and Hartley less so. I've no problem with Barritt's parentage or Hartley's time he's spent over here nor Tuilagi being here for eons and representing England through the age groups.

But Bowden would just be too much. If Lancaster wants to build the right ethos Thomas the Tank and Dan Bowden are not the right way to do it.

Chjw131 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I would like to see Lowe get a chance as he's shown good form for about three seasons now. It's a little infuriating seeing Trinder then Joseph leapfrog him off the back of a handful of games.

12. Manu
13. Lowe

Trinder hasn't leapfrogged him, he's not even in the combined EPS + Saxons.

Trinder nearly did though under MJ and if it wasn't for injuries he may well have done.

I like Lowe, he showed really well throughout the season for Quins and did well on the wing for England in his only midweek game when he was injured. Trinder though, was also playing extremely well 2010/11 and the first half of the 2011/12 season, so I don't think you can say he didn't deserve a shot!

True but but this season wasn't the first very good season for Lowe. He'd put in these performances in the 10/11 and 09/10 season before that, Trinder and Joseph have both managed to put together maybe half a season each around injuries and both were picked.

Lowe might have twice the Jeff games under his belt that Trinder does but they both have more than Tuilagi, and hes a whole year into his England career now. JJ has about the same number of games under his belt as Manu.

In terms of experience theres really little between the 4 of them.
One has proven he can cut it at the highest level.
Lowe has done the most at club level but never had the chance to step up to tests. I doubt he'll get a chance in the near future which is a pity for him because as with Trinder its likely only injuries that stopped him getting capped.

Lowe's only serious injuries have come this season - and may have kept him out of the 6N but he certainly wasn't in contention for RWC.

He's not the biggest guy and I suspect that the previous administration doubted whether he could handle the big beasts of international rugby. The decent job he did of containing Manu in the Jeff Final may have turned SL's head (though Manu didn't do himself many favours that day).

Lowe is not flashiest player, which I think may also count against him. Even some Quins fans think Hopper is the better player - but Lowe's positioning is exceptional in both attack and defence and his eye for a gap makes him a very effective attacker.

I think he's unlikely to get a run in an England shirt - there are too many other good options to consider - but on the other hand Lancaster seems to like to reward hard work and consistency, so if an opportunity arises he may well seize it and not let go.

Any coach worth his salt will quickly size up the relative merits of .....

Trinder
Joseph
Lowe
Tuilagi
36
Barrit

and put together a centre partnership that is best for the team.

In the meantime we will have to keep waiting patiently.

p.s sorry Anthony Allen i forgot all about you. Still i'm not the only one.....

Poorfour wrote:Lowe's only serious injuries have come this season - and may have kept him out of the 6N but he certainly wasn't in contention for RWC.

He's not the biggest guy and I suspect that the previous administration doubted whether he could handle the big beasts of international rugby. The decent job he did of containing Manu in the Jeff Final may have turned SL's head (though Manu didn't do himself many favours that day).

Lowe is not flashiest player, which I think may also count against him. Even some Quins fans think Hopper is the better player - but Lowe's positioning is exceptional in both attack and defence and his eye for a gap makes him a very effective attacker.

I think he's unlikely to get a run in an England shirt - there are too many other good options to consider - but on the other hand Lancaster seems to like to reward hard work and consistency, so if an opportunity arises he may well seize it and not let go.

Pretty much sums it all up, but when you meet Lowe in the flesh you realise he is fairly big. And of all the options we have he's the only one that leads the defensive organisation for his club other then Barritt.

Agree about Lowe there yappy. He is a rock solid defender and has an attacking edge that Barritt doesnt offer.
Hopper, while we have seen him open up defences has been caught out of position a number of times. Definately the Quins 1st choice pairing is JTH/Lowe. With either Casson or Hopper infilling. Maybe the new chap will step up but will have to see.

Back to England -
Could Lowe convert to 12? and shift Tuilagi back to 13?
Perhaps the same for Joseph.

propdavid_london wrote:Agree about Lowe there yappy. He is a rock solid defender and has an attacking edge that Barritt doesnt offer.
Hopper, while we have seen him open up defences has been caught out of position a number of times. Definately the Quins 1st choice pairing is JTH/Lowe. With either Casson or Hopper infilling. Maybe the new chap will step up but will have to see.

Back to England -
Could Lowe convert to 12? and shift Tuilagi back to 13?
Perhaps the same for Joseph.

Ultimate 606 faux pas! Brace yourself for the impending onslaught propdavid


International coaches shouls be able to indentify the players who will cut the mustard at international level as opposed to the ones who simply perform well at AP level. They should have the analytical and intuitive ability to do this. If they can't they shouldn't be in the job. Simple.

Selection should not be that difficult particularly when you get paid to do it and it makes up a significant part of your job description in reality.

There is such a carry on here at 606 about selection. Anyone would have thought it was nuclear physics rather than putting a rugby team together.

I do concede that 2 things mitigate against easy selection (but i dont accept them as adequate excuses for failure) :

1. The general incompetence and self interest of AP coaches; and
2. the fact that for one reason or another we arent getting enough teams far enough in the heineken cup. the Heineken cup does tend to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Cheers Tri - I'm braced.
There are many players that could offer the skill set of a 12 but dont play 12. I do believe you shouldnt select a player internationally in a position that he doesnt play in at club level.
But when faced with the options of - Barrittt, JTH, Farrell as our 12's to pick for nationals then there is 1 winner in my mind. Problem comes when Barritt is unfit.
Allen is a recent addition to the EPS - perhaps the best choice is to give him a run with clubmates Flood and Tuilagi.

I would like to see how Allen fares at international level, his defence is solid and his attack play has come on the past couple of seasons with the Tigers. I don't buy the idea that he's too lightweight for the position, particularly when paired with Tuilagi.

Clearly 36 has been hailed on here and the old 606 as the solution for some time, but his appearances for Tigers were limited and i've seen him have some storming games for the Saxons, but equally some poor ones. Against the Wolfhounds this year he was below par.

Currently Barritt is the best option at 12, and when paired with either Flood, Ford or Burns could well bring out the best in his attacking play.

Please can we start developing the attacking FH back-up to Flood?!!

Interesting to read in The Rugby Paper, that old sage Jeremy Guscott's view on Attwood and some of the other Bath players.

He seems to feel, and even though he's not renowned for his forwards knowledge, that Attwood has bulked up too much and his fitness is not up to scratch. His opinion is he had a relatively poor season for Bath.

Carl Fearns he notes as having his reputation enhanced, and think David Wilson could come in and do well. His main point being that under Booth, Hatley and Gary Gold the forwards should come on leaps and bounds, and I think he's probably got a point there.

As an addition he seems to think Gold will want Banahan back at 12 rather than Barkley. Maybe the experiment will work this time around??

Chj, ive said that on other threads. We were transformed under gold..and that was only weeks of work. He will get baths forwards firing. And that is good for England as they have some of our big hopefuls

GeordieFalcon wrote:Chj, ive said that on other threads. We were transformed under gold..and that was only weeks of work. He will get baths forwards firing. And that is good for England as they have some of our big hopefuls

Very good news given that Bath are the biggest wastrels of talent in the country currently.

Speaking about Bath - Whats happening with Kyle Eastmond?
Is he the next big league convert or doesnt he measure up - has he even had enough of a run to judge yet?
And, will he get gametime - Biggs seemed to be the out and out preformer for Bath last season.

He got injured last season. Hopefully he'll be fit for this one and will have a decent pre-season behind his belt.

Where are they likely to develop him though that's the question? I know he'll probably start on the wing, but what's his long-term position?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I have no recollection of Barritt in Super Rugby, but he's consistently limited for Sarries and England, even with Hodgson playing flat beside him.

Untrue Barritt has on occasion played very well for Sarries. Go watch the games vs the Ospreys in the HEC. He was brilliant for them in that game. He was also very good in the 2009/10 season outside of Glen Jackson. He has struggled to make the required attacking impact for England because he's only played alongside Farrell who stands far too deep. When England used the 12 off of the 9 in the third test Barritt was making as much ground as Manu.

Manu's passing isn't that bad, it isn't that good either. His passing his also to slow for a 12, at 12 where there is less time on the ball then at 13 you need some snap to your passing if you're going to distribute otherwise you are leaving yourself open to interceptions or man and ball hits on your receiver.

He was not making as much ground as Manu in that game.

And he's impressed once in the last two years? Barritt has spent a load of time playing outside of Hodgson, and there just isn't much end product. No side with Brad Barritt at 12 will ever be able to consistently release the outside backs, although they will probably defend competently.

Manu just doesn't pass. It may well be a confidence thing at 20, thrown into top class rugby. And there's no doubt a professional player of 20 year's of age can make his passing snappier. The fact is Manu is a massive attacking threat at 12, and having such a threat will pull defences inwards. Unless Twelvetrees can make a convincing case to take the spot I'd go with Manu at 12 with JJ outside him to exploit that space.

DaveM wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I have no recollection of Barritt in Super Rugby, but he's consistently limited for Sarries and England, even with Hodgson playing flat beside him.

Untrue Barritt has on occasion played very well for Sarries. Go watch the games vs the Ospreys in the HEC. He was brilliant for them in that game. He was also very good in the 2009/10 season outside of Glen Jackson. He has struggled to make the required attacking impact for England because he's only played alongside Farrell who stands far too deep. When England used the 12 off of the 9 in the third test Barritt was making as much ground as Manu.

Manu's passing isn't that bad, it isn't that good either. His passing his also to slow for a 12, at 12 where there is less time on the ball then at 13 you need some snap to your passing if you're going to distribute otherwise you are leaving yourself open to interceptions or man and ball hits on your receiver.

He was not making as much ground as Manu in that game.

And he's impressed once in the last two years? Barritt has spent a load of time playing outside of Hodgson, and there just isn't much end product. No side with Brad Barritt at 12 will ever be able to consistently release the outside backs, although they will probably defend competently.

Manu just doesn't pass. It may well be a confidence thing at 20, thrown into top class rugby. And there's no doubt a professional player of 20 year's of age can make his passing snappier. The fact is Manu is a massive attacking threat at 12, and having such a threat will pull defences inwards. Unless Twelvetrees can make a convincing case to take the spot I'd go with Manu at 12 with JJ outside him to exploit that space.

I think at 20, i'd be inclined to keep him at 13 for the minute...and look for someone with a little more creativity at 12...ie see how Twelvetrees goes with consistant starting time at 12 for GLos...see how Allen starts the season etc...we could even in extremes see what Daly offers at wasps...as he looks a find and Wasps dont appear to have any other 12's so may get lots of gametime?

IF in the next few years Leicester elect to move him to 12 for what ever reason...and his skills at 12 come on...then by all means consider him there.

We are blessed with some quality 13s coming through (Tuilagi, Lowe, Joseph, Trinder) at the moment...but lets not try to shoehorn all of them into the side....

Ive said it before and ill say it again.....this season in the EPL is going to be HUGE for the development of English National team.