England EPS

We are blessed with some quality 13s coming through (Tuilagi, Lowe, Joseph, Trinder) at the moment...but lets not try to shoehorn all of them into the side....

He was not making as much ground as Manu in that game.

Triangulation wrote:Formerly known as Sam you sly dog!

Like most of us you realise that Barrit is not the 12 for us going on from now until 2015 RWC and beyond. You know that and you want one of your young Leicester thrusters Allen or 36 to go on and have a wonderfull career with England at 12. You want an all Leicester midfield - Flood, Allen/36, Tuilagi. Also you will have a problem at Leicester if Tuilagi is turned into a 12. You already have two of them and would prefer to play him at 13. This is your agenda. Be honest now!

You don’t therefore want to see 12 Tuilagi 13 Joseph partnership work. Even if it's the best thing for England. It just would not suit Leicester's interests. I dare you to deny it.

You want to strangle the Tuilagi/Joseph partnership at birth. You all conveniently forget how good Nonu/ Smith was for NZ or that Nonu was one dimensional when he started.

You all conveniently forget how good Nonu/ Smith was for NZ or that Nonu was one dimensional when he started.

You get £ from the RFU you greedy so and so.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

You all conveniently forget how good Nonu/ Smith was for NZ or that Nonu was one dimensional when he started.

Yes, but Conrad Smith was still Conrad Smith and Joseph is NOT Conrad Smith! Whether Barritt is the 12 in 2015 is irrelevent we need to start winning and being good now. Get a winning team going and then start to introduce younger players to it. Don't nearly get a winning game doing then immeadiately chop out the defensive strut in the backline so they fall down like a house of cards!

You get £ from the RFU you greedy so and so.

Yeah but we'd get even more money if we started winning more silverware which would be easier if England could not break our best players quite so often. I note another operation on Ben Youngs this summer, there was one last summer as well thanks to England.

Also, since when did Tigers need more money? They are one of few clubs that make a profit (admittedly a small one) an annual profit which is only likely to grow once they build an lease the multi-storey carpark behind the Crumbie stand (I've heard rumoured figures of £1m a year for a lease with ECP). That's before the adjourning hotel and flats get leased out as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Also, since when did Tigers need more money?

Have England been negligent with Youngs in SA? What is this most recent operation?

Shush dont tell the Celts or they will want even more of our HC money

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Also, since when did Tigers need more money?

Shush dont tell the Celts or they will want even more of our HC money

Triangulation wrote:Ah yes the shoulder.

Now then forget about the discussion above and please help me out with this.....

Just throwing this question out there now to the 606 brainstrust......i don’t know the answer….Tzun Tzu probably does…….it is a tactical question I suppose……..

IF for argument's sake England's greatest attacking threat is posed by players at 8 ( a fit Morgan), 9 (Youngs and Care), the Flood/Ashton inside ball routine when functioning…..and as these threats are all concentrated in one area of the pitch/defensive line….does it make :

a) more sense to run Tuilagi hard in close to that area i.e base scrum/ruck to stress the defenders and the defensive system in that area to breaking point??; OR

b) more sense to have Tuilagi running hard in the 13 channel providing a different threat in a different area??

In a nuthsell - do you attack where your strength is greatest OR do you spread your attacking resources to provide threats in many places??

formerly known as Sam wrote:Manu can do more damage with a bit of space to attack then he can if he's just charging into the defence to reset the attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RGt8NQzLJ4

Quick case in point there. Goes round Farrell, hands off Joubert then goes over Goode. As seen against France in the 6N he has the pace to finish tries off given the opportunity.

Triangulation wrote:p.s to further clarify - you see heavy defensive traffic in the 9-12 channel.

I dont necessarily agree with that as a given. But i dont know.

I am asking whether there are not in fact opportunities there for Tuilagi to attack. Whether or not there is in fact space.

Space after the defenders there are stressed to breaking point by the combination of a fit morgan, a firing youngs, the flood/ashton combination and in the scenario (a) - tuilagi.

1. Barrit is not really cutting the mustard as a running threat. He is not going to deliver on the plan : He doesnt look like breaking tackles, cutting lines through traffic and importantly he does not therefore interest inside defenders. Neither will farrell at 12. SO those defenders drift on to and gang tackle tuilagi; and

2. Is it really established conclusively that Tuilagi is so much better at 13 than he might be in the plan (a) above?? I dont see how it can be not least because all the pieces of it are not functioning as well as they might yet e,g morgan needs to be fitter, youngs needs to get fit again, ashton flood need to reconnect and tuilagi needs time to gel in with a coordinated plan to destroy that part of the defensive line. incidentally if you do get through there it is the shortest route to the try line with the least (almost non existent cover defence)

formerly known as Sam wrote:

1. Barrit is not really cutting the mustard as a running threat. He is not going to deliver on the plan : He doesnt look like breaking tackles, cutting lines through traffic and importantly he does not therefore interest inside defenders. Neither will farrell at 12. SO those defenders drift on to and gang tackle tuilagi; and

2. Is it really established conclusively that Tuilagi is so much better at 13 than he might be in the plan (a) above?? I dont see how it can be not least because all the pieces of it are not functioning as well as they might yet e,g morgan needs to be fitter, youngs needs to get fit again, ashton flood need to reconnect and tuilagi needs time to gel in with a coordinated plan to destroy that part of the defensive line. incidentally if you do get through there it is the shortest route to the try line with the least (almost non existent cover defence)

So the Manu theory at 12 cannot be written off because he's not had a fit again Morgan to help him in that role. Barritt, however, can be written off completely despite never playing a game with Flood or with a fit Morgan and very little time with Youngs.

If we had an amazing 13 option that was hammering on the door then maybe I'd agree but in his two starts Joseph looked limp and Lowe is now injured again (after showing up well on the wing). Why move our best 13 to 12 when there is no better option or in fact any comparible option to step into the 13 shirt. Why not let Manu stay at 13 where he has proved destructive and experiment with actual 12s if Barritt is not up to it, there is a selection in Allen, JTH, Twelvetrees, Mills, Hill, Waldouck, Daley and Burrell.

beshocked wrote:Triangulation Joseph has been given opportunities. Manu has even been shunted to 12 to accomodate him. This is something I don't agree with at all.

I find it amusing you write off Brad Barritt so simply yet Joseph is free from criticism. Barritt is 25, hardly an OAP. Look at the end of 2009/10 season when Saracens adopted a more attacking game - they were scoring tries for fun.

Barritt plays in a team which focusses on a defensive kicking game, he is one of the best organisers around.

I absolutely agree with Sam. M.Tuilagi is our best 13. Leave him there!

beshocked wrote:Raw materials? Depends what you look for in a player. Do you look for defensive and organisational abilities.

If it was just about being big and fast why not pick Banahan at 12?

Joseph is a 13, Barritt is a 12.

Barritt is a much better defender and organiser.

M.Tuilagi for all his pace,power and skill is not an organiser.

Joseph is not an organiser and is not as good as M.Tuilagi.

Centre partnerships is all about balance.

Look at NZ - 12. Nonu is the power and hard hitter, C.Smith is the guile and organiser.

It's because you don't appreciate what Barritt does. When he's at 12 it's an awful lot harder for the opposition to get through. Generally when he plays his side wins.

beshocked wrote:Oh so now you're comparing Barritt to Greenwood....Sigh...

It's like saying Robinson was a better winger than Banahan.

Richard Hill a better backrow than Tom Johnson...

Stating the bleeding obvious!

Do you think Twelvetrees and others are as good as Greenwood?

If only Greenwood was 10 years younger.....

You have to pick the best we have. Harking back to the good ol' days of 2003 is not going to help anyone.

beshocked wrote:Yes of course it has to be just because he plays for my team sigh.....

Stevens is not good enough, neither is Botha or Strettle.

Botha was picked because none of the other contenders have done any better.

Joseph isn't in the same league as Greenwood either.

Everyone goes on about Twelvetrees but until he lives up to the hype and expectation he's just another bloke behind Barritt,Allen,JTH etc.

If Twelvetrees was as good as made out he would have supplanted Allen at 12 for Tigers and would have been more consistent.

There you go writing off Barritt. Barritt has achieved an awful lot more than Billy so far yet Billy's supposedly the saviour at 12.

Barritt's the better player at the moment.

beshocked wrote:Poorfour I agree with that.

Just look at Mike Brown at full back - completely written off as too slow etc but a great season at Quins has catapulted him into England contention.

Exactly aslongasbut100ofus. Twelvetrees may well become a legend at 12 for England but let's not get carried away.

As you say 1st step for him - nail down 12 spot at Gloucester.

2nd step - put in consistent good performances.

3rd step - get into the England 22 then go from there.