England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

formerly sam

what allegedly happened at half time with garvey?

No idea but there must have been something as he was on fire for the half a Saxons game he was allowed and then subbed at half time and not included in anymore squads since. Truely baffeling if the coaches decided he wasn't up to it, only logical explanation I can think of is that something must have cracked off in the changing rooms.

Manu looked good running down the wing against France? For his try, which was as a 13 supporting his inside centre and 10.

Tom Youngs is improving nicely, give him a couple of months and he could be ready.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tri, Manu is not a good winger (I've seen it and not many have as he's never started a game for the first team on the wing and I think had one sub appearence there in his first season for all of 2 minutes). He is left isolated from the game and no opposition in their right mind will kick it down his wing. Joseph was pretty poor in both the games he started so I'd be tempted to bench him and stop shoving around our best attacking threat ball in hand. Playing young players out of position all the time and shifting them around the backs does nothing to help them at all.

I don't think that Manu will be able to continue as a centre unless he can develop a passing/off-loading game. Part of the role of a centre is to bring the wide players into the game, but Manu seems do the opposite, he takes the ball on himself every time, starving the players out wide of possession. Look at the stats below (from espn), he didn't pass the ball once in 80 minutes of rugby. It wasn't a case of JJ being poor against the boks, but instead the fact that he was selected as an attacking player, and hardly touched the ball.

Tuilagi:

Kicked: 0
passed: 0
Ran: 7

offloads: 0
Meters Run: 20
Defenders Beaten: 3
Tackles made/missed: 9/2

Joseph:

Kicked: 0
Passed: 1
Ran: 1

offloads: 1
Meters run: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Tackles made/missed: 4/0

My issue with the EPS system is that it restricts who SL should pick in 5 months time, which is ridiculous. Apparently selection is not strictly speaking confined to the EPS, but I don't think this happens too often. There are so many variables between now and Nov and I would like to see who puts their hand up during this time. If Ford is playing well then get him in. I just want to avoid the situation where England don't play a form player because he is not in the EPS. This also includes the foreign based players.

I appreciate the benefits that the EPS can bring but would like to see some changes allowed before Nov internationals as well as before the 6Ns.

mawhis wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tri, Manu is not a good winger (I've seen it and not many have as he's never started a game for the first team on the wing and I think had one sub appearence there in his first season for all of 2 minutes). He is left isolated from the game and no opposition in their right mind will kick it down his wing. Joseph was pretty poor in both the games he started so I'd be tempted to bench him and stop shoving around our best attacking threat ball in hand. Playing young players out of position all the time and shifting them around the backs does nothing to help them at all.

I don't think that Manu will be able to continue as a centre unless he can develop a passing/off-loading game. Part of the role of a centre is to bring the wide players into the game, but Manu seems do the opposite, he takes the ball on himself every time, starving the players out wide of possession. Look at the stats below (from espn), he didn't pass the ball once in 80 minutes of rugby. It wasn't a case of JJ being poor against the boks, but instead the fact that he was selected as an attacking player, and hardly touched the ball.

Tuilagi:

Kicked: 0
passed: 0
Ran: 7

offloads: 0
Meters Run: 20
Defenders Beaten: 3
Tackles made/missed: 9/2

Joseph:

Kicked: 0
Passed: 1
Ran: 1

offloads: 1
Meters run: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Tackles made/missed: 4/0

I think this criticism of Tuilagi for Joseph's lack of impact should actually be at the coaches. Manu is clearly being employed as a strike runner as everytime the 10 gets the ball he is running a line to carry the ball. He is not being employed to distribute to Joseph. What I notice in the 2nd test is that Flood tried to use Manu as a decoy to suck in some defenders put the ball in behind to Joseph to get him some space. However this was read superbly by JDV and he was snapped up immediately. I dont think you can blame Tuilagi when he is clearly being asked to be a strike runner not to distribute. I think this combination could work very well if you play Goode at 15 to be that second distributor to the fly half and have both centres as strike runners. As Manu and Joseph both have a lot of talent.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

mawhis wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tri, Manu is not a good winger (I've seen it and not many have as he's never started a game for the first team on the wing and I think had one sub appearence there in his first season for all of 2 minutes). He is left isolated from the game and no opposition in their right mind will kick it down his wing. Joseph was pretty poor in both the games he started so I'd be tempted to bench him and stop shoving around our best attacking threat ball in hand. Playing young players out of position all the time and shifting them around the backs does nothing to help them at all.

I don't think that Manu will be able to continue as a centre unless he can develop a passing/off-loading game. Part of the role of a centre is to bring the wide players into the game, but Manu seems do the opposite, he takes the ball on himself every time, starving the players out wide of possession. Look at the stats below (from espn), he didn't pass the ball once in 80 minutes of rugby. It wasn't a case of JJ being poor against the boks, but instead the fact that he was selected as an attacking player, and hardly touched the ball.

Tuilagi:

Kicked: 0
passed: 0
Ran: 7

offloads: 0
Meters Run: 20
Defenders Beaten: 3
Tackles made/missed: 9/2

Joseph:

Kicked: 0
Passed: 1
Ran: 1

offloads: 1
Meters run: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Tackles made/missed: 4/0

I think this criticism of Tuilagi for Joseph's lack of impact should actually be at the coaches. Manu is clearly being employed as a strike runner as everytime the 10 gets the ball he is running a line to carry the ball. He is not being employed to distribute to Joseph. What I notice in the 2nd test is that Flood tried to use Manu as a decoy to suck in some defenders put the ball in behind to Joseph to get him some space. However this was read superbly by JDV and he was snapped up immediately. I dont think you can blame Tuilagi when he is clearly being asked to be a strike runner not to distribute. I think this combination could work very well if you play Goode at 15 to be that second distributor to the fly half and have both centres as strike runners. As Manu and Joseph both have a lot of talent.

So you are effectively saying that Manu is excused responsibility for passing/offloading as he is a strike runner which is nonsense. If you play 12 you have to be able to bring the players outside you in to the game, be it by being a good distributer (a la Berrick Barnes when he plays 12) or by breaking the gainline and offloading (a la SBW/Nonu) or be a hybrid of the two (a la Frans Steyn). At present Manu is breaking the gainline but the offloading is not there. In my opinion, it is an experiment worth persevering with for a bit to see if he can add this dimension to his game, as him and JJ as a midfield pairing has the potential to be very, very good indeed.

Actually Haskells comments are probably closer to the mark, they have to stop asking him to run into the nearest player and start asking him to run at gaps. The we dont have to worry about his offloading game, he will have made the linebreak himself.
Currently hes doing all the donkey work and noone is exploiting the space he makes by tieing up 3 defenders (partly because he doesnt offload to the non existant support)

He is tying up defenders PSW, but then one of two things has to happen for it to be effective. he either has to offload or we have to win the ruck quickly and get the ball away before the defence is set. For a variety of reasons neither happened frequently enough in tests 2 and 3 in SA, but the basics are there and can be built on.

Lancaster has a lot of work to do if we are to challenge in RWC 2015, but I do feel we are going in the right direction.

Ozzy3213 wrote:He is tying up defenders PSW, but then one of two things has to happen for it to be effective. he either has to offload or we have to win the ruck quickly and get the ball away before the defence is set. For a variety of reasons neither happened frequently enough in tests 2 and 3 in SA, but the basics are there and can be built on.

Lancaster has a lot of work to do if we are to challenge in RWC 2015, but I do feel we are going in the right direction.

Well Haskells comments, which I agree with, were that yes he is doing this but whats the point ... its not the best way to use him.

Hes far more effective when playing wider and looking for space. To be fair England were getting to him faster and getting quick ball from him this weekend than the previous test, but its still going nowhere. He didnt get much possession anyway, although a heck of a lot more than JJ did.

rather than trying to change Tuillagi shouldnt we either play to his strengths or get someone in at 12 who can pass? Or someone in at 13 who does more than stand around watching?

Englands problem (well one of them) is that all the talent seems to be focused in the same positions. 13 we could pick from a few players who could all be top quality internationals, yet the cupboard looks a bit more bare at 12, hence the need to try to adapt somebody to the role.

Hopefully Twelvetrees can step up at Gloucester and start putting some real pressure on to be picked, as he has all the attributes to be an excellent 12, but he needs to get a decent run there and show that he is the man for the job.

If he can do so at the start of the season, then I think against Fiji in the first AI it may be worth going 11. Joseph 12. Twelvetrees 13. Tuilagi 14. Ashton 15. Foden as the outside backs.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

mawhis wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tri, Manu is not a good winger (I've seen it and not many have as he's never started a game for the first team on the wing and I think had one sub appearence there in his first season for all of 2 minutes). He is left isolated from the game and no opposition in their right mind will kick it down his wing. Joseph was pretty poor in both the games he started so I'd be tempted to bench him and stop shoving around our best attacking threat ball in hand. Playing young players out of position all the time and shifting them around the backs does nothing to help them at all.

I don't think that Manu will be able to continue as a centre unless he can develop a passing/off-loading game. Part of the role of a centre is to bring the wide players into the game, but Manu seems do the opposite, he takes the ball on himself every time, starving the players out wide of possession. Look at the stats below (from espn), he didn't pass the ball once in 80 minutes of rugby. It wasn't a case of JJ being poor against the boks, but instead the fact that he was selected as an attacking player, and hardly touched the ball.

Tuilagi:

Kicked: 0
passed: 0
Ran: 7

offloads: 0
Meters Run: 20
Defenders Beaten: 3
Tackles made/missed: 9/2

Joseph:

Kicked: 0
Passed: 1
Ran: 1

offloads: 1
Meters run: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Tackles made/missed: 4/0

I think this criticism of Tuilagi for Joseph's lack of impact should actually be at the coaches. Manu is clearly being employed as a strike runner as everytime the 10 gets the ball he is running a line to carry the ball. He is not being employed to distribute to Joseph. What I notice in the 2nd test is that Flood tried to use Manu as a decoy to suck in some defenders put the ball in behind to Joseph to get him some space. However this was read superbly by JDV and he was snapped up immediately. I dont think you can blame Tuilagi when he is clearly being asked to be a strike runner not to distribute. I think this combination could work very well if you play Goode at 15 to be that second distributor to the fly half and have both centres as strike runners. As Manu and Joseph both have a lot of talent.

So you are effectively saying that Manu is excused responsibility for passing/offloading as he is a strike runner which is nonsense. If you play 12 you have to be able to bring the players outside you in to the game, be it by being a good distributer (a la Berrick Barnes when he plays 12) or by breaking the gainline and offloading (a la SBW/Nonu) or be a hybrid of the two (a la Frans Steyn). At present Manu is breaking the gainline but the offloading is not there. In my opinion, it is an experiment worth persevering with for a bit to see if he can add this dimension to his game, as him and JJ as a midfield pairing has the potential to be very, very good indeed.

No not exactly, my point was he isnt in the position to do so as he has clearly been asked to take the ball into contact and get over the gainline. It is a very hard skill to charge at a defensive line and also pick out a pass which. Also Manu does look to offload there just aren't enough people running lines off him. That is why players like SBW are so successful offloading as the AB's are awesome at support lines. Off set pieces you always see him making run to draw players in now one to distribute also I didnt see Joseph running many lines off Tuilagi when he had the ball in open play. So when you have the power of Manu its kind of reasonable for him to go into contact instead of just shipping the ball down the line. However I do agree that this partnership does have legs as they both have enormous ability.

Absolutely agree on Twelvetrees Ozzy, I think Lancaster missed a trick by not taking him on tour. Farrell and Barrit/Tuilagi/JTH represent two different types of one dimensional player at 12, whereas Allen represents a player noone will ever actually pick for an England test side.
Twelvetrees has an all round game and the potential to be the next err Ricky Flutey?

The guy can kick pass tackle run and has the bulk to play a contact game when required.

The lineup you suggest has potential for sure. although Ashton seems to favour having a utility wingback at 11 ..maybe Monye (remember when he was Lion kids?) if not Foden with Brown at 15

But 36 has to get that coveted shirt at Glaws and start playing his best again

The only time he seemed to get the ball at the weekend was when he was running hard and passing wasn't an option. Add to that there's no-one running with him its not surprising there are any passes/offloads.

Our ability with ball in hand was Poopie. Either Farrell belted up field (with one lucky strike and good chase from Ashton) or passed to Tuilagi running hard at the defence. Jamie Roberts does the very same thing but it works well when there's someone there to offload (forward) to a runner of his shoulder. That simply wasn't happening.

Should have let the mid week coaches train the backs. The much maligned JTH made a fair few decent passes & offloads in their games which helped Allen.

HammerofThunor wrote:The only time he seemed to get the ball at the weekend was when he was running hard and passing wasn't an option. Add to that there's no-one running with him its not surprising there are any passes/offloads.

Again not something Id dispute, I bought this up following the previous test too. Something that the 2010-11 side did much better was getting the wide plays in to offer support to the crash ball Hape

yappysnap wrote:Should have let the mid week coaches train the backs. The much maligned JTH made a fair few decent passes & offloads in their games which helped Allen.

Aren't they the same coaches? Also the boks midweek side was much much weaker than their top side. Much bigger gap than the England side.

I'd say that we're playing similar to the way Wales played in the few years before the World Cup. Good defence wins them some games, big guy in the centre (if it works) gets them tries. And that's about it.

In my opinion we simply have to see if Twelvetrees can cut it at international level, the basics of everything you could possibly want from a 12 are there and he could be our version of a Frans Steyn type player.

He needs some time to bed in at Gloucester, so I think the AIs would be too soon, but if he's performing well after the first half of the season, we really should call him up for the six nations.

Lancaster has been a fan before, so I think it will happen sooner or later if he shows good club form.

Dont forget England B threw the shackles off against the Barbarians too.

This either suggests that they are
a) Flat track bullies
b) Picking the wrong players
c) Getting too conservative, too simple, too afraid and stiffleing themselves when playing competitive games

Perhaps a mix of all 3 *shrug*

Im sure Lancasters Saxons sides used to have a but more pizzaz about them.

Trinder. Remember Trinder? Wasnt Trinder going to be Englands new 13?

Its easy to forget just how many injuries the current squads carrying.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Trinder. Remember Trinder? Wasnt Trinder going to be Englands new 13?

Its easy to forget just how many injuries the current squads carrying.

England really do have a great depth at 13, now we just need to develop a few more 12s. Ryan Mills and Sam Hill are coming through so we have a few young options at 12, maybe a few years away yet.

Lets not forget one thing though and its a biggy....

We wont meet any other team (including the Kiwis) with the combined intensity and physicality that SA bring when they're seriously firing...as we were on the end of a few times this series....

We will be stronger for that...as each player will have felt the power and the collisions...and now know whats required.

Tuilagi is a 20yr old and is an outside centre. He'll play to his best in any position...but his best position is at 13 with a playmaker putting him through gaps...or giving him a chance to crash at pace. Maybe in the years coming he can do a Nonu and make the changes..but till then i want to see him at 13 with Twelvetrees or Allen, or who ever can make that position their own.
If Joseph (and even Lowe, trinder) continues his development then he will get his chance also...its not a bad position to be in.

Zander wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Trinder. Remember Trinder? Wasnt Trinder going to be Englands new 13?

Its easy to forget just how many injuries the current squads carrying.

England really do have a great depth at 13, now we just need to develop a few more 12s. Ryan Mills and Sam Hill are coming through so we have a few young options at 12, maybe a few years away yet.

Slightly older at 24...but i want to see Fitzpatrick at 12 for the saxons...and if he has a crackin season...i think he offers as much as Barrritt defensively...and makes more hard yards offensively....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Zander wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Trinder. Remember Trinder? Wasnt Trinder going to be Englands new 13?

Its easy to forget just how many injuries the current squads carrying.

England really do have a great depth at 13, now we just need to develop a few more 12s. Ryan Mills and Sam Hill are coming through so we have a few young options at 12, maybe a few years away yet.

Slightly older at 24...but i want to see Fitzpatrick at 12 for the saxons...and if he has a crackin season...i think he offers as much as Barrritt defensively...and makes more hard yards offensively....

I'm not doubting Fitzpatrck's ability but do we really need 2 crash ball players (well that is what Tuilagi is being used for at the moment) in the centres? I'm not sure we do. It's just my opinion so don't shoot me down!

I do think we need to make more of this excuse though. We havent really bothered with referees but what about injuries and suspensions?

Summer squad
Wouldve beens:
Stevens, Woods Croft, Lawes, Sharples, Webber, Simpson

Couldve beens:
Attwood, Clarke, Young, Trinder, Deacon, Wigglesworth, Wood, Hawkins, Armitage, Armitage, Cipriani, Crane, Brooker, Saull, Morgan (the other one), and err Tait (must ...reach...straws....)

Injured during the tour:
Monye, Robshaw, Brown, Barritt, Youngs, Corblimey

Add in Haskell for the start and I think we have a good case for a potential excuse here. Theres a potential Lions 15 in there

Peter,

I do think we need to make more of this excuse though. We havent really bothered with referees but what about injuries and suspensions?

Summer squad
Wouldve beens:
Stevens, Woods Croft, Lawes, Sharples, Webber, Simpson

I agree with those bar Stevens...hopefully he is now officially retired from international rugby. I also think Webber will be over taken quite quickly by Lindsay at club and others elsewhere....

Couldve beens:
Attwood, Clarke, Young, Trinder, Deacon, Wigglesworth, Wood, Hawkins, Armitage, Armitage, Cipriani, Crane, Brooker, Saull, Morgan (the other one), and err Tait (must ...reach...straws....)

Attwoods form has been gash, Crane should be in the defo list...Saull should not be mentioned in england terms again.. others you list but would they have actually improved the team we had out? I dont think so.

Injured during the tour:
Monye, Robshaw, Brown, Barritt, Youngs, Corblimey

Add Launchbury...who i think would have played in the last test.

Add in Haskell for the start and I think we have a good case for a potential excuse here. Theres a potential Lions 15 in there

Ive said on other threads...his Physicality was a big plus for us in the final test...he was seriously powerful....

Why has Crane's reputation gone up significantly since he has been injured? Before this season he was only touted be a very small few to even get in the England squad. Now he is our saviour for the no8 position and he hasnt played a single game!

geordie,

I was trying to be a bit silly wioth some of those names...but all except stevens in the "woudlve list" were named by the RFU as officialy off the tour injured. I certainly agree that certain ones would be a retrograde step or yes not worthy of a place were or wouldve been (except tait and Cipriani) in a full EPS 64 year preceeding this tour. They are England players who were unavailable, almost a full squads worth.
Add to that people like Easter who lancaster just refused to pick over the slow old Dowson and its pretty subtstantial. Im leaving Tindall off because hes been sh1t for years.
Of them yeah only Lawes, Croft or Woods, Armitage, Simpson ( bench), Sharples or Monye, Youngs Robshaw (for the last game), Haskell (for the first two) Webber ( just to keep Mears out) wouldve really made a noticebale difference to the squad. I mean thats not much is it?

Im sticking to this point :P


England, moral victors!


Umm yeah....



Crane...I know its a bit odd. he used to be toop slow and too lightweight for international rugby, I guess the standards have dropped in the year hes been on holiday.
At 8 I believe England should stick to Waldrom till Morgan can pass the basic pie test. Haskell on the bench or starting 7. They dont really get much direct ball carrying from their flankers or second row, so having an 8 with some rumble is pretty handy.

I'd go for a bit of slash and burn, we're half way there in terms of bringing in the youngsters but not yet far enough. Still too many has-beens or never-beens hanging around for my liking, adding nothing and using up opportunities a youngster would do more with. Some areas should be largely unchanged, others a complete overhaul. The starting team shouldn't show too many changes when everyone is fit but the supporting cast need to be freshened up. There are currently too many designated 'second-choice' players. Everyone should be pushing for a starting spot and we have 32 players capable of doing so. I think SL seems to select players who are destined to hold tackle bags because he is too afraid/loyal to upset the status quo of his original arbitrary selections. Pick the best players available, and in the case of tight calls, select on potential.

1. Corbisiero, Marler, Mullan (Corbs can cover TH if needed)
2. Hartley, Youngs (do we need 3 in the EPS? If someone is injured replace him, no one else has done enough to deserve a place)
3. Cole, Harden/PDJ/Knight/Thomas (whoever steps up)
4. Attwood, Garvey
5. Lawes, Launchbury
6. Croft, Wood
7. Robshaw, Haskell
8. Morgan (Waldrom approaching 30, isn't anything special, Hask can cover 8)
9. Youngs, Care, Dickson
10. Ford, Burns, Farrell (put faith in the youngsters, start a 10 year long 3-way scrap for the shirt)
12. Allen, Twelvetrees (Barritt good defensively but rubbish going forward)
13. Tuilagi, Lowe/Trinder/Joseph (maybe 2 of them to cover wing as well, drop a SH, FH or FB)
11/14. Ashton, Sharples, May (Wade needs a season or 2 to improve defence)
15. Foden, Brown, Goode

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I'd prefer to see something like this by the time the 6N rolled around:

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Garvey (if whatever issue occurred at half time in the Saxons game can be over come, if not Attwood)
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan/Waldrom/Crane - whoever is in the best form
9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Ashton
12.Barritt (his defensive work rate was key in the first test and he looked really good in the developed backline of the third test)
13.Manu (our best ball carrier)
14.Foden (contreversial but I liked the 2 fb policy and him and Ashton attacking off of Flood's shoulder is awesome)
15.Goode (very impressive in SA)

Bench: Marler, T Youngs/Webber/Grey (whoever is in form), Lawes, Wood, Care, Farrell/Burns (whoever is in form), Joseph.

I'd go with Triangulation's side, with Goode at FB. Tuilagi on the wing might be worth a look one day (he's hardly had loads of experience there, and I doubt he's much slower than North), but let's let the Tuilagi JJ experiment run on a bit, particularly with Goode there to join the line and provide the passing Tuilagi apparently can't. People say he's great on the outside shoulder, but what I see Tuilagi do better than anyone is take the ball into contact and make yards. This should be making room for the England attack, the fact we failed to make good use of it on Saturday doesn't mean we can't. Anyway, I don't know why JJ got so little ball on Saturday, but I doubt it was all his fault.

I'm sceptical as to whether England can be creative with Tuilagi at 13 given how little he passes. 36 has a long flat pass and so might be able to cut him out, but Barritt certainly can't. I really cannot imagine a convincing England attack which features Barritt and 12 and Tuilagi at 13.

Garvey needs to make a second row place at LI his own and play consistently well. I doubt he could possibly feature before the 6 Nations. Attwood's form last season certainly doesn't warrent a starting place. Let's see how Lawes goes.

As for Crane, his stock has certainly risen in his absence. He had a nasty knee injury, hopefully he can overcome that and provide some additional compeittion at 8.

Surely Sharples was missing because he was pretty poor last season? Hopefully he'll do better this year.

Its interesting that Youngs has been promoted by many to back up hooker...despite Lindsay who is equally aggressive and powerhouse runner scrummager etc yet has played a full season just about for wasps...whilst Youngs has not played a game.

Im not interested in seeing Waldrom in the side despite a decent showing in the final test.

We need to do everything possible to tell Bath to play Fearns at 6 or 8 (perferably) and get him running marathons to get him fit!! Similar for Morgan at Gloucester...needs to get fit.

Questions to answer:

1) Who on earth is the second row combo...?
2) Who on earth can make a balanced powerful back row
3) Where is our midfield playmaker coming from...

All the rest whilst maybe not totally settled are fine....

DaveM wrote:Surely Sharples was missing because he was pretty poor last season? Hopefully he'll do better this year.

I seem to remember him being injured. Don't quote me on that though! If he hadn't I would have thought Lancaster would have picked him for the summer tour.

Really don't rate Fearns, wouldn't want him near the full Int side

Sharples had a long standing shoulder issue, he was okay for Gloucester but not as outstanding as the end of 2010/11 due to his injury causing him to be in and out of the side. Could have toured, had surgery afterwards and missed pre-season, but Lancaster told him to have his surgery and not worry about his future squad place. Suggests he'll definitely be involved and given the problems on the wing, wouldn't be surprised to see him getting a start if he gets back on decent form. Such a natural try scorer and seriously fast, would probably be the quickest player in international rugby until May gets in the team.

Fearns is very good....the problem is his lack of gametime and total fitness issue is sending him backwards.

Its a little alarming that both him and Attwoods form have gone backwards since their move to Bath....is there a problem with the coaching...

He may have been injured, but he was still poor. Needs a better season this year.

No side has more forwards coaches than Bath now. Interesting to see what the impact on Fearns will be.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Fearns is very good....the problem is his lack of gametime and total fitness issue is sending him backwards.

Its a little alarming that both him and Attwoods form have gone backwards since their move to Bath....is there a problem with the coaching...

Well it isn't their facilities, didn't they recently have a brand new training centre built? Or am I a little confused.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its interesting that Youngs has been promoted by many to back up hooker...despite Lindsay who is equally aggressive and powerhouse runner scrummager etc yet has played a full season just about for wasps...whilst Youngs has not played a game.

Questions to answer:

1) Who on earth is the second row combo...?
2) Who on earth can make a balanced powerful back row
3) Where is our midfield playmaker coming from...

All the rest whilst maybe not totally settled are fine....

Lindsey will get plenty of game time this season. WAsps set piece improved massive last year, and Dai Young has to take a lot of credit I think. He's been good for Lindsey.

1. Lawes Palmer
2. Plenty of options. First up Croft, Robshaw, Morgan
3. Alex Goode joining the line from FB, or Twelvetrees if he performs for Gloucester.

Attwood had a poor season at Gloucester before moving to Bath, actually thought he had a decentish season.

Fearns on the other hand just doesn't look that great when the quality of the opposition is increased imo

We need players like these really finding their form this season...they are quality...but massive bruisers aswell...

These are the ones to compliment Croft and Parling etc...to give us a nice mix....

GeordieFalcon wrote:1) Who on earth is the second row combo...?

There are some good options coming through. Lawes when fit is a definite, has always impressed in an England shirt, don't take too much notice of a few silly errors. Attwood and Garvey are strong options for the big man, can both stake a claim with decent early season form. Launchbury clearly very impressive for a youngster, could be a very strong long-term option. Kitchener has looked good in the past and was one of the better midweek players in SA. I see it as a potentially strong position going forward, providing Lancaster acts now and does not remain loyal to his stop-gaps.

2) Who on earth can make a balanced powerful back row

Surely our strongest area. Needs a bit of tweaking to find the most balanced combination but we have 4 flankers currently fit to start in test rugby against the best opposition in Croft, Wood, Robshaw and Haskell. Plenty of youngsters flooding through as well. Only question is over Number 8, but Morgan is getting very unfair criticism for his performances in SA because he was not match fit and playing behind a massively underpowered Second Row. He should be good enough, but agreed he needs some conditioning work. Like you, I'm not interested in seeing Waldrom any more. Haskell can proide cover for now.

3) Where is our midfield playmaker coming from...

Allen or Twelvetrees at Inside Centre will offer much more in attack. Combined with a more threatening 10 like Ford or Burns and a game plan which utilises the strengths of the players selected and I think it will be much more promising in the future.

Burns and Ford are a long long way from Int rugby, Burns especially is massively flawed.

Didn't Morgan play behind the exact same lock combo in the 6N???

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Burns and Ford are a long long way from Int rugby, Burns especially is massively flawed.

Didn't Morgan play behind the exact same lock combo in the 6N???

Thats a critical point though. England will not face any other side with the combined physicality and intensity than the boks....so even with this pack we should not be as concerned about the physicality i guess...

I think Morgan is an outstanding talent, just needs a little nurturing and a dietitian

I agree....

For me Morgan needs to prove that he can last 80 minutes at international level. It's no good starting a game knowing that you will have to replace a player after 50 minutes.

And thats what 100 % of people have said...its a fitness issue....

Lets hope they get it sorted....

Of the players who were missing through injury in South Africa, that would be considered to be first choice or thereabouts, do we know what their injury situations are?

I have read in some places that Tom Wood might be struggling to play again.

Ideally he should be able to last the full 80, but short term it isn't necessarily a major issue. Front rowers are always subbed on 50 minutes to a predetermined plan. It obviously isn't the same since there is only 1 sub to cover the 3 back row positions, but looking at the likely match day XXIII, Morgan would be the most likely one to make way anyway.

Obviously long term you need to ensure he is able to play a whole game, but while there is no one else at 8 I wouldn't keep him away from the team for this reason alone.

Totally disagree jeffwinger.

If he was world class and a real game changer then there is an argument for having him in knowing he can't complete the game. But he is not. he is a good player who if he gets fit could go on to have a long international career.

Comparing him not completing 80 minutes to a front row player is not comparing like for like, as those switches although predetermined are tactical and can be reversed in the case of injury as it is a specialist position.

If you start with Morgan in the back row and a flanker gets injured in the first half, he either has to play 80 or be replaced at 8 by your lock replacement. At international level that is a ridiculous situation to find yourself in.

Is he actually that unfit??

I can't remember his 6N stats but didn't he do ok? Seemed to always do ok for Scarlets too although the Rabo is hardly an intense league