Selection of the Lions captain - a different approach

by Portnoy Mon 25 Jun 2012, 11:17 am

Before everyone piles in to nominate BOD or Sam or whoever, stop and read my reasoning.

The very act of appointing a captain creates a hostage to fortune in that the captain becomes un-droppable (save injury or malicious targeting).

Way back in 1983, there were two rivals for the captaincy - Peter Wheeler (England) and Ciaran Fitzgerald (Ireland) and basically came down to a head-to-head in the closing game of the five nations 1983 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Five_Nations_Championship ). Ireland won the game leaving England with the wooden spoon. Fitzgerald was made Lions captain and Wheeler was left out of the squad. Both of the contenders were hookers.

On the tour the Lions were walloped 4-0 by the ABs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_British_Lions_tour_to_New_Zealand ). But the general opinion at the time was that Colin Deans (Scotland) was the best hooker in the Lions squad - but Fitzgerald was untouchable.

My proposal is to (like in the Ryder Cup) appoint a non-playing captain. If (say) BOD doesn't have a great next nine months, he'd be a suitable candidate. Failing that - maybe Shane Williams? Someone who the Lions will respect for their achievements and leadership qualities.

But that would allow the manager to select his team from the best players available unconstrained by the demands of having to select his nominated player captain.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 25 Jun 2012, 11:20 am

I think having a non-playing squad captain and then team captains picked test by test is a fine idea

by bedfordwelsh Mon 25 Jun 2012, 11:39 am

Its a good idea in principle but lets say the tour captain was POC but his form wasn't good enough to warrant a test place, would the test captain then not feel undermined by POC presence?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 11:48 am

Why do they need to appoint a tour captain, especially if there is no candidate head and shoulders above the contenders for his playing position?

Of course the flip side is that generally they have made, 1983 apart, a decent choice for the job.

by Portnoy Mon 25 Jun 2012, 12:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Why do they need to appoint a tour captain, especially if there is no candidate head and shoulders above the contenders for his playing position?

Of course the flip side is that generally they have made, 1983 apart, a decent choice for the job.

Any opposition will be well-versed in the abilities of the leading contenders LT.
However the press/TV do like/need to have a player representative as a go-to for a sound-bite. There may be a de facto skipper, but he'd be relieved of the onus of having to confront the media 24/7.

by Sin é Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:38 pm

Portnoy wrote:Before everyone piles in to nominate BOD or Sam or whoever, stop and read my reasoning.

The very act of appointing a captain creates a hostage to fortune in that the captain becomes un-droppable (save injury or malicious targeting).

Way back in 1983, there were two rivals for the captaincy - Peter Wheeler (England) and Ciaran Fitzgerald (Ireland) and basically came down to a head-to-head in the closing game of the five nations 1983 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Five_Nations_Championship ). Ireland won the game leaving England with the wooden spoon. Fitzgerald was made Lions captain and Wheeler was left out of the squad. Both of the contenders were hookers.

On the tour the Lions were walloped 4-0 by the ABs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_British_Lions_tour_to_New_Zealand ). But the general opinion at the time was that Colin Deans (Scotland) was the best hooker in the Lions squad - but Fitzgerald was untouchable.

My proposal is to (like in the Ryder Cup) appoint a non-playing captain. If (say) BOD doesn't have a great next nine months, he'd be a suitable candidate. Failing that - maybe Shane Williams? Someone who the Lions will respect for their achievements and leadership qualities.

But that would allow the manager to select his team from the best players available unconstrained by the demands of having to select his nominated player captain.

Do you think Colin Deans would have been the difference then in winning the series?
And BOD would not go as a non-playing captain. Said it was a bad mistake not to leave the Lions in '05 when he got injured and why he got out quick when he got injured on the last tour.

Personally I'd avoid having players in positions like hooker or outhalf as captains. Elsewhere you can accommodate an exceptional player (other than TH or LH) if you don't want to leave them out of the team.

by Portnoy Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:50 pm

Sin e,

Do you think Colin Deans would have been the difference then in winning the series?
And BOD would not go as a non-playing captain.

Fitgerald really was a bed-blocker for Deans. Fitz was really off-colour but undroppable. Deans demonstrated what a then unknown quality in a hooker - mobility. Mind you that was in the days when hookers had to do what it said on the tin.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:51 pm

If you have a non-playing captain, who communicates with the on-field ref? Who decides who goes for goal and queries the ref's decisions? Rugby is different to golf.

by Portnoy Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:55 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:If you have a non-playing captain, who communicates with the on-field ref? Who decides who goes for goal and queries the ref's decisions? Rugby is different to golf.

The on-field captain kia? Select the team and from that a captain. I think that the laws demand that.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:57 pm

To be honest Portnoy, a non-playing captain is basically a glorified waterboy. The Ryder Cup "Captain" is effectively the "Manager". You don't need two of those on tour.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:00 pm

Exactly my point Kiwi. Hence no need for a non-playing captain. You might as well appoint Alistair Campbell as non-playing captain. Run

by Portnoy Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:03 pm

But if the designated tour skipper plays poorly, then he, the manager and the party's fans and followers are stuffed.

The non-playing captain would cover most of the media duties.

by Sin é Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:07 pm

Portnoy wrote:Sin e,
Do you think Colin Deans would have been the difference then in winning the series?
And BOD would not go as a non-playing captain.

Fitgerald really was a bed-blocker for Deans. Fitz was really off-colour but undroppable. Deans demonstrated what a then unknown quality in a hooker - mobility. Mind you that was in the days when hookers had to do what it said on the tin.

Here is a report of the series. They mention problems with the 3/4s.

Old failings returned to haunt the Lions in New Zealand in 1983, when the tourists joined the 1966 side as the only ones to suffer a 4-0 whitewash in the Tests.

The side captained by Ireland�s Triple Crown winner Ciaran Fitzgerald, coached by Jim Telfer and managed by Willie John McBride suffered from some controversial selections, an itinerary of frightening intensity and the usual long line of casualties.

Roy Laidlaw � taking over at scrum-half after the loss of first Terry Holmes and then Nigel Melville � forged a neat partnership with Ollie Campbell, but the side struggled to develop cohesion in the three-quarters.

The All Blacks were an impressive team, who had both a quality pack and an abundance of scoring potential out wide. Nevertheless, the Lions were only outclassed in the final Test, when the rubber was already lost.

The opening international was desperately close, with New Zealand scoring the only try and edging the kicking competition between Campbell and Allan Hewson to win 16-12.

In the second Test, the Lions looked clear favourites after they conceded only nine first-half points while playing into the teeth of a Wellington gale. But with the wind in their favour, they failed to convert possession into points and fell to a masterclass in playing the conditions, losing by the interval score of 9-0.

Fitzgerald's team actually outscored the All Blacks by two tries to one in the third Test but were still edged out 15-8, before being blown away by an outstanding attacking performance that saw the hosts win the final international 38-6, their biggest victory against the Lions.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:09 pm

But none of the on-field duties. You have to have a captain on the field. It doesn't matter what the non-playing captain does. He can wash the dishes. You need someone on the field as a captain. So far better to choose the right man and have a vice-captain in case of injury. If he plays poorly then your selection as captain wasn't a very good one.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:21 pm

Portnoy wrote:But if the designated tour skipper plays poorly, then he, the manager and the party's fans and followers are stuffed.

The non-playing captain would cover most of the media duties.

Alternately, don't bother choosing a tour captain. Pick out 3 or 4 or 5 players as a leadership group, and have them share the media duties. A manager or assistant manager or even the paid PR manager (most international sides have one) can field any questions a non-playing captain would take.

by Portnoy Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:22 pm

True.

So why not avoid the situation by not choosing one? A non-playing captain's job would be both an honour and a go-between. There would in most likelihood be de facto skipper who's job would be to lead the team on the pitch and relieved of so much media crap.

Alistair Campbell wouldn't do as he'd have no credence amongst the playing squad.

by Sin é Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:25 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:But none of the on-field duties. You have to have a captain on the field. It doesn't matter what the non-playing captain does. He can wash the dishes. You need someone on the field as a captain. So far better to choose the right man and have a vice-captain in case of injury. If he plays poorly then your selection as captain wasn't a very good one.

+1.

If you look at the last Lions series, the mid-week captains selected were POC, BOD, Phil Vickery, DOC & ROG.
Other than POC, BOD was the only certain starter. I think that was the one and only game that DOC has ever captained which just shows how stuck they were.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:44 pm

Portnoy wrote:Sin e,
Do you think Colin Deans would have been the difference then in winning the series?
And BOD would not go as a non-playing captain.

Fitgerald really was a bed-blocker for Deans. Fitz was really off-colour but undroppable. Deans demonstrated what a then unknown quality in a hooker - mobility. Mind you that was in the days when hookers had to do what it said on the tin.

The British media painted Fitzgerald in a very negative light, and you might be remembering that more than how he actually played. The Irishman unfairly got the blame. But losing a series 4-0 is not one man's fault, and replacing him wouldn't have changed the result.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:45 pm

However I get your main point. I guess the trick is to select someone who really is a nailed on starter as well as having the required leadership abilities.

by KickAndChase Mon 25 Jun 2012, 7:06 pm

I think this is a generally silly idea. The captain of a Lions team could, god forbid, just change test to test if it turns out the initial captain does not have the leadership qualities to be captain or playing qualities to stay in the squad. I highly doubt the captain would fall from grace like that anyway. And you'll need different captains, in general, for the midweek games anyway.

For example, Warburton for captain until it turns out Rennie is better. Then switch leadership to BOD the next match. It's not like either Warburton or BOD can't captain a team even if it's for one week.

by mowgli Mon 25 Jun 2012, 7:21 pm

You can't have a non playing skipper. The lions is about being in the trenches on tour, solidarity and battle. The capt needs to lead from the front. You need a warrior so I would advocate picking the test team and then picking the capt. Of course you also can't really do that as the capt needs to be appointed pre tour and many variables can conspire to the capt not playing.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 25 Jun 2012, 7:41 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Sin e,
Do you think Colin Deans would have been the difference then in winning the series?
And BOD would not go as a non-playing captain.

Fitgerald really was a bed-blocker for Deans. Fitz was really off-colour but undroppable. Deans demonstrated what a then unknown quality in a hooker - mobility. Mind you that was in the days when hookers had to do what it said on the tin.

The British media painted Fitzgerald in a very negative light, and you might be remembering that more than how he actually played. The Irishman unfairly got the blame. But losing a series 4-0 is not one man's fault, and replacing him wouldn't have changed the result.

Feckless, you are right, we shouldn't blame Fitzgerald for the results. Everything I have ever read suggests that Deans should have been selected ahead of him however, and I can only imagine that there was a fair bit of disgruntlement (confirmed in various player bios) within the squad

by fa0019 Mon 25 Jun 2012, 8:55 pm

I don't see why a captain has to be chosen before the tour starts.

What is the benefit of a captain being appointed early???

You will always have a group of senior players and probably a senior player committee regardless of their being a sole figurehead.

Unless their is someone absolutely standout, experienced and in the form of his life then its as much of a hindrance as anything else.

If you don't appoint a captain you're saying that everyone can be dropped, everyone must fight tooth & nail for the shirt and no one position is available to just one person.

What happens if Warburton is named and Robshaw has a stormer on tour or vice-versa?

At the moment I can only think of one player that is near certain (injury aside) that will test if fit (Richie Gray), and he is not captain material yet.

by Sin é Mon 25 Jun 2012, 9:33 pm

Brian O'Driscoll in interview last week, said that captaining the Lions was an unbelievably difficult job - far more difficult than captaining your national side.

Here is what he had to say:

There was also player and management overload. “One hundred percent. For example, I don’t think I ever trained with Denis Hickie on the tour, certainly not after the first week in New Zealand. Irrespective of what happened injury-wise, there was minimal fun to be had, and that’s why, before ’09, I thought these Lions tours were going to be way better, as they’d been made out to be by all the Lions greats of the ’70s. You see all these guys talking about lifelong friendships and I thought: ‘I don’t have any of that and I’ve been on two of them.’”

He was back in the trenches in ’09, with Paul O’Connell assuming the captaincy, and with less pressure came more of an opportunity to understand what the Lions were about. “And I did that. And I had a great time.”

You’d imagine O’Connell maybe didn’t? “No, I would imagine not. It’s a very stressful environment being captain of a situation like that. Incredibly tough. Way more so than your national team, ’cos you’ve got help from guys, unless you’ve got guys who’ve been captains before and give a helping hand and take some of the responsibility away. And there was so little bitchiness on that (’09) tour. There was bitchiness in ’01, and in ’05 things went badly and staying on the tour was a massive error.”

Hence, when injured in the second Test in ’09, he was on the first available flight home.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:19 am

Rob Howley has made the difficult decision to drop his erstwhile lauded captain Sam Warburton simply through loss of form.

But this only goes to highlight the folly of nominating a Lions captain guaranteed of a starting test place.

A tour skipper should be nominated (BOD or POC probably) with absolutely no guarantees of even making the Test bench.

An honour to reflect lifetime achievements and a big hurrah but no guarantee of playing beyond the dirt-trackers like the rest of the squad.

by **rodders** Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:30 am

Right now Robshaw has to be way out in front.

BOD and POC are injured and Warburton is out of sorts.

There's a lot of rugby to be played yet but I'd imagine the captain will come from the team that delivers most in the 6N.

Don't agree with the OP. The captain needs to be someone who has earned their place on merit and is good enough to play, otherwise they won't have the respect of the squad or the opposition.

There's always the risk that someone will outperform the captain on tour but thats the same with any rugby team. The best captain isn't always the best player come the tests. There's no guarantee any player will perform come the tour.

by thebluesmancometh Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:30 am

Are we trying to create a job where there isn't a need for one??? Very governing body esque...

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:41 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:Are we trying to create a job where there isn't a need for one??? Very governing body esque...

No. Avoiding a repetition of past failures like the FitzGerald/Deans/Wheeler gaffe of 1983.

The skipper for any particular test/mid-week game being selected from the squad.
The tour skipper should be handling the media headlights along with the coach/manager.

by TJ1 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:43 am

Its certainly an issue for this lions tour as there are very few if any players that are certain of a place - and those are not captain material.

so a squad captain and captains for each game might not be a bad bet.

players with a good chance of a place? Gray? North? Ashton? No captains there. No back rower is sure of a place given the competition for places.

by TJ1 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:45 am

rodders wrote:Right now Robshaw has to be way out in front.

As captain maybe but is he gurenteed a started place - no way at all. Far too much competition for his position from a number of players at least his equal or better

by fa0019 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:48 am

question however.... why does a captain have to be chosen at the beginning of the tour. Its a long tour... does it really matter to the players having one guy standing out? There will always be a senior players committee anyhow.

Its not like they are a settled squad...

Wouldn't it be great if they said no captain until 1st test announced... every spot is up for grabs.

Would it impact the team negatively?

by **rodders** Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:52 am

TJ wrote:
rodders wrote:Right now Robshaw has to be way out in front.

As captain maybe but is he gurenteed a started place - no way at all. Far too much competition for his position from a number of players at least his equal or better

Is there? Ferris and O'Brien are injured, Warburton is off form and has been for a while. Lydiate is injured. Tupiric isn't first choice for Wales. Rennie? Chris Henry?

I think Robshaw is in a strong position. He's captaining his country and playing very well.

The other guys need to get fit and/or perform very well between now and March.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:52 am

The tradition is that the skipper is announced ahead of the party.
And the skipper is first on the test team sheet (unless the opposition devise strategies to make the skipper unavailable).

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:53 am

They have professional coaches and a Tour Manager.

I agree why do they need to appoint a tour captain. Of course by the end of the 6Ns things may make a lot more sense.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:54 am

There's no need to name a squad captain at all, whether playing or non-playing. Is there a rule that says squads, touring or otherwise, need a captain?

As others have already said, it's simple enough: pick your XV a match at a time, and pick your captain from the XV.

by Sin é Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:55 am

Real leaders of men do not lose form and they have to be able to cope with being set up to be a scapegoat by the press as well.

Loss of form for most good captains is generally down to not being fit. Accept that and only play fit players and everything will be ok.

by thebluesmancometh Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:55 am

But honestly if you select a captain to just deal with the media isn't he just a pr rep?? Won't that be seen as a gimmick???

Also if the captain isn't a player does he train? If he does then he'll want to play, if he doesn't then he's either cheerleading or coaching?!

Problem with taking an inspirational guy not on the pitch is that where you need him??? If the players rely on their captain off the pitch when they are in the heat of battle they'll look around and he'll be nowhere!!

I don't think this idea could work at all, and would be a drain on resources and turn the tour into a Woodward style disaster!!

by beshocked Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:57 am

Dark horse for Lion's captain is Kelly Brown. He can play 6 or 8.

by TJ1 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:57 am

Robshaw is in a strong position and is a good captain - but is in no way a certain pick. simply too many good back row players. It would depend on the tactics wanted, the exact type of playerand fitness of others.

Its a shame in a way cos he might be a good lions captain but with the strength in depth of the home nations in back row players he simply cannot be CERTAIN of a place.

Tehr emust be 8 flankers who would be worthy of a lions place

by fa0019 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 10:57 am

Backrow is the most fierce area for places.

We have Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Jones, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Denton, Rennie, Robshaw, Croft, Morgan, Haskell, Armitage.... all who could stake a test spot come the series.

Would be very bold for a team to pick a captain from those players... unless one is head and shoulders above come the end of the 6N and the European season.

by TJ1 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:00 am

fa0019

Plus barclay and Brown :-) Lets see how Brown does in the 6N but he could be a good bet. never a backward step, always gives his all, leads by example. also ugly enough to scare the opposition. Robshaw is too pretty.

by beshocked Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:00 am

fa0019 wrote:Backrow is the most fierce area for places.

We have Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Jones, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Denton, Rennie, Robshaw, Croft, Morgan, Haskell, Armitage.... all who could stake a test spot come the series.

Would be very bold for a team to pick a captain from those players... unless one is head and shoulders above come the end of the 6N and the European season.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:04 am

But who'd complain about BOD or POC as the nominal tour skipper? They'd get the accolade for a life-time career and would probably be capable of at least a test bench place.

It's not like the non-playing captains as in the Davis or Ryder cups.

by fa0019 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:05 am

Its nothing to do with stating the obvious beshocked.. its that even once they've selected the players from the above list and beyond.... I doubt any of the players is nailed on worthy of a test spot.

Who works well with each other, who has the form it will all be discovered in AUS, not before and since competition is so strong it would be a very brave man to pick a captain from the backrow.... you could be limited your first choice backrow to 2 out 3.

Perhaps it would be better to give it to a position with less competition and more standout players say prop or lock.

by Poorfour Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:10 am

fa0019 wrote:Backrow is the most fierce area for places.

We have Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Jones, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Denton, Rennie, Robshaw, Croft, Morgan, Haskell, Armitage.... all who could stake a test spot come the series.

Would be very bold for a team to pick a captain from those players... unless one is head and shoulders above come the end of the 6N and the European season.

Lots of strong candidates, but it's quite telling that very few of them have shown a consistent level of performance over the last 6 months, let alone an upward curve. I think every name on that list has missed tests through form or injury in 2012.

If I were Gatland, I'd be delaying naming my captain until as late as possible.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:11 am

But if you don't name a squad captain at all, this whole problem is avoided. No squad captain, only team captains.

by fa0019 Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:15 am

I agree LP

perhaps its time we scrap pre tour captain announcements and say that senior players need to throw their hat into the ring... put in the performances, show leadership and prove they have what it takes up until the 1st test.

by Poorfour Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:19 am

It's a break with tradition, but it would be a sensible option. Stats and history suggest that on Lions tours unexpected players can come to the fore.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:19 am

Poorfour wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Backrow is the most fierce area for places.

We have Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Jones, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Denton, Rennie, Robshaw, Croft, Morgan, Haskell, Armitage.... all who could stake a test spot come the series.

Would be very bold for a team to pick a captain from those players... unless one is head and shoulders above come the end of the 6N and the European season.

Lots of strong candidates, but it's quite telling that very few of them have shown a consistent level of performance over the last 6 months, let alone an upward curve. I think every name on that list has missed tests through form or injury in 2012.

If I were Gatland, I'd be delaying naming my captain until as late as possible.

But the point is that once Gats makes his choice he's bound to him under the Lions tradition.

That player has to play. That's the point of ~~Portnoy's~~ my OP.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 14 Nov 2012, 11:22 am

See Rob Howley's selection of Warburton as squad captain for the Autumn internationals for a cautionary tale.

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