Selection of the Lions captain - a different approach

First topic message reminder :

Before everyone piles in to nominate BOD or Sam or whoever, stop and read my reasoning.

The very act of appointing a captain creates a hostage to fortune in that the captain becomes un-droppable (save injury or malicious targeting).

Way back in 1983, there were two rivals for the captaincy - Peter Wheeler (England) and Ciaran Fitzgerald (Ireland) and basically came down to a head-to-head in the closing game of the five nations 1983 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Five_Nations_Championship ). Ireland won the game leaving England with the wooden spoon. Fitzgerald was made Lions captain and Wheeler was left out of the squad. Both of the contenders were hookers.

On the tour the Lions were walloped 4-0 by the ABs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_British_Lions_tour_to_New_Zealand ). But the general opinion at the time was that Colin Deans (Scotland) was the best hooker in the Lions squad - but Fitzgerald was untouchable.


My proposal is to (like in the Ryder Cup) appoint a non-playing captain. If (say) BOD doesn't have a great next nine months, he'd be a suitable candidate. Failing that - maybe Shane Williams? Someone who the Lions will respect for their achievements and leadership qualities.

But that would allow the manager to select his team from the best players available unconstrained by the demands of having to select his nominated player captain.

LP

Thats a silly comparison, Warbs isn't fit, hasn't played for the Blues and shouldn't have played in the summer.

Picking Warburton as AI captain was a joke from the off, a Lions tour is a whole different ball game!!

But naming a squad captain allows for the same problem to arise. Why make problems for yourself? Pick a team for each match you play and nominate a captain from each team you pick.

Then, to paraphrase Dickens, tradition is a ass, a idiot.

I can't think of any one player who would be guaranteed of a starting spot come test time whereas in previous years it's been a choice between a small group of candidate's.

The furthest ahead in my book are Grey, Sexton and North. None of these appear to be captain material. I also think a previous lion would be a better choice than a first time tourist.

Either a tour captain is named and it's said from the outset that it doesn't go anywhere near guaranteeing a test spot. Or tour captains are removed and a matchday captain is named for the following game as soon as possible i.e before the first training session after a game. This gives the management the time to see how the match captain performs during training and the match itself.

LP

Then when the first test comes around you have to pick 1 of those captains to lead the other captains?!

It'd create division in the locker room IMHO! Get all your players in line before the tour, one man to lead and everyone to pull in the same direction

The other Lions captaincy head-to-head was in 1993. England had won consecutive Grand Slams in the previous two seasons but misfired in that year`s Five Nations.

England selected Barnes over Andrew against Scotland and scord a fine win. In the last match, however, they had a nightmare against Ireland. That put paid to Will Carling`s chances at leading the Lions, the honour going instead to Gavin Hastings.

It made for a strange tour. The Test side was over two-thirds England - all but one of the pack, the halfbacks, Guscott & Underwood - but no place for the England captain. Carling ended up the leading the dirtrackers with some underperforming Scottish forwards.

It`s very doubtful whether Carling would have tipped the balance in the Test series. However, Hastings never read the riot act to his team mates in the mid-week side. Their losses undermined the unity of the tour group and makes that series look more disappointing that in might otherwise have been.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Then when the first test comes around you have to pick 1 of those captains to lead the other captains?!

I'd rather have to do that than be obliged to select someone who wasn't playing well enough to deserve a place.

thebluesmancometh wrote:LP

Thats a silly comparison, Warbs isn't fit, hasn't played for the Blues and shouldn't have played in the summer.

Picking Warburton as AI captain was a joke from the off, a Lions tour is a whole different ball game!!

In what way is it a whole different ball game? Even if you pick a player who is fit, has played and is in form, you are hostage to fortune if they lose form and fitness, or are overtaken by a rival for the shirt but aren't injured enough to drop.

So what do you do? Warburton was hot favourite for Lions captain after the 6N, but his injury record since then (cryochamber notwithstanding) must make him a very risky bet right now. The most consistent backrower in terms of fitness and consistency of performance is Robshaw, and even he missed a test through injury (and suffered in the one before that while trying to play with a broken thumb).

But your working off a worst case scenario!!!

Post 6N we will have a champion team and at least half a dozen players nailed on for test 1, right now we are not pitted against each other and every Lions nation is rusty, come the end of the 6N we wont be and we will have performed against each other.

But we'd still be months out from the first Test.

change the language ?

Pack Leader for 'Tour Skipper' someone who epitomises the spirit of the Lions and can be chosen to front most of the media obligations and lead the players during the other activities.

The Captains of the test matches (picked out of on form pre and mid matches) could be called the Test Captain

poor

You don't lose form in training, and in reality the first test is picked before you leave (to a point)

Fitness and injury rules you out of games, thats when your replacement and vice captain step in, doesn't effect the locker room one bit.

But from time the Lions is picked to test one isn't 8 months plus, it's just weeks, your picked for your 6N performances, a captain selected and your on the plane.

Form doesn't really come into it unless your captain has an absolute mare of a warm up game with no reasoning behind it like injury or fitness.
But there are no things in life without risk!

I'd say you create far more risks by selecting multiple captains, with multiple styles, ideas, and then asking them all to give that up to one man at test 1! It'd be like taking 4 head coaches!!

In danger of repeating myself but.....

I would not appoint a captain pre-tour unless by then there is an outstanding candidate. Otherwise I would wait until the squad has got together and the various dynamics are understood.

LT

I'd agree with that, give the players over a dozen training sessions and see who rises as natural leader material.

That said if the players know this they may all attempt to act as such, and it could cause havoc. Remember these aren't club players who do what theyre told, they are international stars, the very best who will beleive their way is the very best.

Some possible Captains can lead great on the pitch, but sometimes all the media attention effects them and they aren't able to concentrate on the game and as such thier leadership is lessened somewhat.

In 2009 POC was Captain, but BoD delt with a lot of the media stuff leaving POC to concentrate on the team.

2013 then should have two again Captain and media friendly senior player to take this duty off the Captains shoulders.

If BoD travels again he would again be perfecct, he's a senior respected player, media friendly, and a big name jouralists would be happy (if not more so) to speak to than the Lions captain.

So whoever is Captain, I'd select BoD (if travels) to be the teams media spokes person,press conferences, meet jouralists, post match interviews, and deal with all the pressure that brings, and take that pressure of the team Captain and leave him to concentrate on the team.

The captain is involved in the squad and team selection thats why he's named first.

Even if you name a captain on the morning of the test then there's no guarantee he'll play well that day.

You pick a captain because you have faith that they will deliver but there are never any guarantees that they will.

But you could have several leaders within the squad, Rodders, unnamed to the media, who could fulfil that role. There are always natural leaders within teams / squads. I still don't think you need to announce a squad captain at all.

rodders wrote:The captain is involved in the squad and team selection thats why he's named first.

Even if you name a captain on the morning of the test then there's no guarantee he'll play well that day.

You pick a captain because you have faith that they will deliver but there are never any guarantees that they will.

+1

You can't be hedging your bets on who is captain.

Kingshu - only reason why you might have seen BOD a bit on the last Tour was because he was contracted separately as a Tour Ambassador by Murdocks crowd (Sky, Times etc). He wrote a blog for one of them.

I think they were really peed off he wasn't Tour Captain (and thats why they gave POC a hard time).

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But you could have several leaders within the squad, Rodders, unnamed to the media, who could fulfil that role. There are always natural leaders within teams / squads. I still don't think you need to announce a squad captain at all.

No I don't think so. The captain has lots of duties to perform both publically and behind the scenes. They are picked to become the focal point for the media and other team to take the heat and spotlight of other players who may not be so well equiped to deal with the pressure of touring...thats why the captain has nearly always been on previous tours.

The captain needs to be picked way in advance of the tour because there are lots of pre tour duties to carry out.

If the coach isn't in a position to name their captain before the tour then you'd be wondering if they have a vision or plan at all for the tour and series.

I'd expect most of the test team to be decided before the tour too and then this can be reworked as players perform or don't.

In terms of the captain, you are picking someone specifically you know is proven and can deliver under pressure at the highest level. If you've picked the right captain then really the only thing that should go wrong is they get injured... if they just lose form or can't cut it then you've probably picked the wrong guy.

I see your point, Rodders, but you haven't changed my mind.

Yes, traditionally, the tour captain has had media obligations and all that, but I don't see why those obligations couldn't be fulfilled by more than one player. There are likely to be several club / regional / provincial captains in the squad anyway, never mind national captains. It's not as if we'll be struggling to find leaders to put in front of a microphone.

But my point is that any tour captain can (like Warburton) go from hero to zero in a few playing weeks.

The appointment of BOD or POC or Shane or Jonny as tour captain wouldn't affect the over-all test side. Neither would they shame any dirt-trackers.

My point is that the tour captain is a worthy current player as an accolade and a media-adept representative for the party.

But allows so much more flexibility for the ultimate objective of the mission.

greytiger wrote:But my point is that any tour captain can (like Warburton) go from hero to zero in a few playing weeks.

The appointment of BOD or POC or Shane or Jonny as tour captain wouldn't affect the over-all test side. Neither would they shame any dirt-trackers.

My point is that the tour captain is a worthy current player as an accolade and a media-adept representative for the party.

But allows so much more flexibility for the ultimate objective of the mission.

+1

The Ryder cup used to have a playing captain but went to a non playing captain a good few years ago

I so no inherent harm in appointing someone - Say BOD as tour captain an having a match captain appointed for each match that may or may not be the tour captain

A figurehead, then. The monarch (or president) rather than the prime minister.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I see your point, Rodders, but you haven't changed my mind.

Ye thran auld bollix ye! ....

I love anagrams! Give me a minute...

I like this tour captain idea, but you'd need to be careful who you gave it to or it would be pointless. Someone like Wilkinson (if he went) would probably be a good shout for the "tour captain" role if it were a thing, as he is senior and respected but has no huge amount of captaincy experience, and wouldn't be seen as an automatic choice for the test side at all, meaning that people would accept the distinction between tour captain/playing captain more easily. If you gave it to a successful national captain then people would expect them to end up as playing captain as well.

However it came about BoD doing most of media stuff, it seamed like a good idea.

Have your tour Captain, but also have a media smart, senior player to do all the media stuff.

A tour captains job is help prepare the team to act as go between from coaches to Players, to help but in place the coaches vision, to pick up on any unhappyness within squad and deal with it, make sure players are happy and looked after and raise any player issues to management be the media spokes person, attend press conferences, meet jouralists, post match interviews, and most important, make the calls on the pitch, lead by example and raise the stardard and moral of the team.

If a senior player can be delegated to take the media aspect of the Tour Captains role, then that may be best for both parties. Leave the Captain to concentrate on his other (more important) duties. It would have to be someone high profile enough that the media would not get annoyed that they are speaking to him rather than the tour Captain.

TJ wrote:The Ryder cup used to have a playing captain but went to a non playing captain a good few years ago

I so no inherent harm in appointing someone - Say BOD as tour captain an having a match captain appointed for each match that may or may not be the tour captain

Golfers are used to getting on with it themselves (as its an individual sport). Teams are different. You need someone who is ultimately responsible.

Would the media be bothered with a sideline captain to speak to after the match? They want to know what it was like in the heat of battle.

Anyway, not a lot of players cut out to be leaders. Big criticism of Ireland at the weekend was that Heaslip (who has captained Leinster successfully a good few times), was poor and no one else put their hand up when leadership was needed.

I still think for the Lions a Pack Leader should be named, with Test Captains based on form

Right, so Jonny Wilkinson as tour captain, to mediate between players and coaches, be the "face of the tour" until the test side is selected, and practise drop goals outside the australian parliament, while someone else (Robshaw, warburton, brown etc) is appointed test captain in the week or two before the series starts.

Sorted.

Kingshu wrote:However it came about BoD doing most of media stuff, it seamed like a good idea.

I really don't think he did a lot of media stuff (other than that blog in the Times). A lot of that might have had something to do with him being contracted to Murdocks lot. He was invisible on the DVD as well (think we saw him once going off on a walk on his own avoiding the camera).

He played four games (2 Tests), captained one midweek team and went home immediately he got injured in the 2nd Test.

thomh wrote:Right, so Jonny Wilkinson as tour captain, to mediate between players and coaches, be the "face of the tour" until the test side is selected, and practise drop goals outside the australian parliament, while someone else (Robshaw, warburton, brown etc) is appointed test captain in the week or two before the series starts.

Sorted.

'fraid not Jonny won't be available for any pre-tour partying as more than likely he will be hoping to be in the Top14 playoffs.

Sin é wrote:

TJ wrote:The Ryder cup used to have a playing captain but went to a non playing captain a good few years ago

I so no inherent harm in appointing someone - Say BOD as tour captain an having a match captain appointed for each match that may or may not be the tour captain

Golfers are used to getting on with it themselves (as its an individual sport). Teams are different. You need someone who is ultimately responsible.

Would the media be bothered with a sideline captain to speak to after the match? They want to know what it was like in the heat of battle.

Anyway, not a lot of players cut out to be leaders. Big criticism of Ireland at the weekend was that Heaslip (who has captained Leinster successfully a good few times), was poor and no one else put their hand up when leadership was needed.

I'm not suggesting that the match-day captain would not be doing a pre and post match interview. But the welter of media handling from the players' perspective would be fronted by the tour captain.

Surely handling a welter of media stuff is the job of the tour manager - ie Andy Irvine?

Aside from all the pre-tour hype requiring the presence of a captain, what sort of message does it send if the coach isn't prepared to name a captain beforehand?

The captain will have little enough time to get to know those players from other countries without curtailing that time further. For this reason the country with the most players selected should normally also provide the captain.

The pack will also have to gel quickly as a unit to stand any chance and therefore shouldn't be changed every game. Therefore it is far more likely that the captain should come from the pack.

Current team captains should also have higher weighting due to their experience of dealing with the media already.

The largest contingent will undoubtedly come from Wales, and therefore logically the conclusion is that Warburton be selected as Captain.

thomh wrote:Right, so Jonny Wilkinson as tour captain, to mediate between players and coaches, be the "face of the tour" until the test side is selected, and practise drop goals outside the australian parliament, while someone else (Robshaw, warburton, brown etc) is appointed test captain in the week or two before the series starts.

Sorted.

I'd prefer Bod to Wilko - wilko is not a great media man

The Great Aukster wrote:Aside from all the pre-tour hype requiring the presence of a captain, what sort of message does it send if the coach isn't prepared to name a captain beforehand?

Hype requires nothing. The coach isn't obliged to name a squad captain.

The coach could say that as there are several excellent candidates for the role of Test captain (the only role that truly matters), he's happy to wait to see how they perform in the tour matches before deciding on his Test skipper. That would be added motivation for those players who are in with a shout of being made Test skipper.

If you name your captain too soon, you force your own hand when it comes to selection.

Bod for tour captain for moments like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpLd-Vi8qZA

I dont think their is a need for a tour captain, but i also dont believe that the captain should be named before the tour starts. It has been said that picking a captain before the tour start meen that that player cannot and will not be droped.

When the squad is assembled and on the tour its self just before the fist test. Then the captain should be named. IMHO.

Tindall for 'social events' captain.

The running assumption seems to be that it'll be a forward. I don't believe that BOD will even travel - he's done for. As is O'Connell.

How many likely candidates are there?

Irish candidates: Heaslip, Best, Sexton?
Welsh candidates: Warburton, Wyn Jones, Rees?
English candidates: Robshaw, Care, Croft?
Scottish candidates: Ford, Brown, Barclay?

If I think "best lions captains" the names McBride and Johnson spring to mind. But they were both clearly great leaders of their respective era's. There's no such clear choice now.

BOD and POC were clearly great leaders and clearly the best in their respective positions in the home nations in their day. But they're both getting on in years. And in fact the modern game favours more mobile locks than POC and much bigger centres than BOD. Neither would be guaranteed a place in the team now.

So who's the best candidate now? It's not that clear. Warburton showed great promise as a captain at a young age. But lost all form due to injury. Not the best 7 in Wales at the moment. Robshaw is up there but he's really not guaranteed a starting place. There are too many good flankers. How can any one of them be considered a definite starter? Same with O'Brien. Made of the right stuff but not guaranteed a place.

Johnny Sexton? Richie Gray?

I don't see Gray as captain material especially for the lions.

So who so people suggest are possible candidates from each nation for the role, leaving aside the criterion as to whether they'd be guaranteed a starting place?

TJ wrote:I don't see Gray as captain material especially for the lions.

I think the list of people who saw Johnson as captain material before he was announced was [unrolls list of candidates a la Lord Melchett in Blackadder] Ian McGeechan [/reroll].

The trouble is, the nailed-on players are generally not obvious captains, and the obvious captains are not generally nailed on. That said, the reason the obvious captains aren't nailed on is generally a question of lots of contenders of similar quality rather than there being a stand-out candidate who's obviously better than the captaincy candidate. If Warburton or Robshaw, say, comes out of the 6N in good shape and good form, Gatland might just choose to build a back row around one of them and have done with it. Partisan fans will argue forever about it, but the truth is that with the talent available a) someone's favourite will inevitably be excluded and b) if Gatland can't build a world-class back row that includes a captain from that group, he's not much cop as a coach or selector.

So if it's likely to be a forward who's likely to be the test team?

At the minute the only players who could say they're in pole position for test places are Healy at LH, Best at hooker and Gray at Lock. The rest are still pretty open, although Best has some competition from Hartley...

Of those three only Rory Best would be considered a leader (he's a member of Deccie's "power of four" with ROG, BOD and POC) and has captained his country before... So Rory Best for Lions captain then???

Hartley not a leader? He's Northampton captain and next in line for England captain. Rowntree goes on and on about what a great leader he is.

Edit: just realised that you weren't including him in the list. Not sure that best is in pole position at hooker necessarily though

Donal Lenihan said recently that the captain would have had to have toured previously (similar way that the head coach has to have been on a tour previously as either a player or a coach).That will cut out quite a few.

According to some of the Irish lads who had Gatland as a coach, Gatland had no time for Backs and if he socialised it was with the older hard chaw Munster forwards (the Claw, Mick Galwey, Anthony Foley), so its highly unlikely that the Captain will be a Back.

I think when selecting, he will go for country units - for example, the Welsh front row, an Irish second row, and English backrow, Irish halfbacks, Welsh centres, mixture of back 3 (thats just an example of how it might work).

So, for example, he would have Priestland & Phillips, Sexton & Murray, Flood & ? type thing.

thomh wrote:Hartley not a leader? He's Northampton captain and next in line for England captain. Rowntree goes on and on about what a great leader he is.

Doesn't matter what a great leader he is - if he isn't liked & respected by the other nations, he isn't going to make a good Lions captain. I gather that there is always a bit of niggle between the England & Welsh players and its not a good plan to have a lot of both - the Irish & Scots are needed to lighten the atmosphere a bit!