Would a win over SA in November restore your faith in Kidney?

by clivemcl Mon 25 Jun 2012, 1:10 pm

Ireland play South Africa on 10th November,

by red_stag Mon 25 Jun 2012, 1:11 pm

For me it would be just another one off game and it wouldn't be enough to deem it an improvement.

Here is an arguably better question.

Would a 6 Nations Grandslam restore your faith in Kidney.

Ireland have Wales, Italy and Scotland away
Ireland have France and England at home.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 1:12 pm

I would $&@) myself if we lose against ireland in november, or england or scotland foor that matter.

by **Notch** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 1:16 pm

Depends on the performance more than the result. How we defend, how we attack, whether the centres link well and make yards, how well we contest the breakdown, the speed of service from the halfbacks etc. We might get everything wrong and still get a lucky win due to an off-day from South Africa or a few brilliant individuals dragging the team forward. That would mean literally nothing. And we've seen good one-off performances that have meant nothing already, so I find it really hard to make the case for a yes.

Of course, the writing is on the wall for Kidney anyway. After the 2011-2012 season he is a busted flush. The best case scenario for him is he sees out his contract whilst we try and identify a successor. The seeding for the RWC is made after the November Internationals. If we found the right man, I would like to see him go after that regardless. He won't be staying on after the Six Nations anyway.

by clivemcl Mon 25 Jun 2012, 1:25 pm

Would you want him to get the opportunity in the autumn Notch?

To me the autumn would be good for a new coach to get up to speed for the 6N. If he stays for the autumn, he will see his contract out i'm sure.

by **Notch** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 1:44 pm

Just depends on whether we can get the right guy by then.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 2:02 pm

Not sure you should use that emoticon again Biltong. Ireland could well have beaten NZ two weeks ago. They would have deserved it and no point getting that upset over it. I know you're only joking and Billy would never let you hear the end of it but after all it's just a game. Not a matter of life and death. thumbsup

To many Irish fans - well all but Sin - even if Kidney parted the Irish sea and turned water to Guiness and got a 60 point victory against SA, their faith would still not be restored. There's a point of no return and that point was well and truly passed before the NZ tour.

by mystiroakey Mon 25 Jun 2012, 2:03 pm

you will lose to england bilt

by **Notch** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 2:07 pm

It's been 4 years of this coaching staff now you see. If they knew what we needed to do to be successful, we would probably have done it by now.

by Thomond Mon 25 Jun 2012, 2:08 pm

If we on the 6N I think I could back Kidney, a solitary win wouldn't.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 2:09 pm

mystiroakey wrote:you will lose to england bilt

Nope.

by Zander Mon 25 Jun 2012, 2:33 pm

biltongbek wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:you will lose to england bilt
Nope.

We shall see ... chin

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 2:34 pm

Zander wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:you will lose to england bilt
Nope.

We shall see ...

by Taylorman Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:02 pm

This years AIs is interesting for two things. One its a last chance for NH teams to grab that last seeded position at 1st in the pool. (I think).

Second its revenge time for the three who toured south.

Huge motivation to win for the north and the south? Its just about pride in winning.

As the ireland tests showed...motivation is everything. Especially in one offs.

No way the SH will clean sweep the north. They never do. So who will lose this time?

by red_stag Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:15 pm

Taylor you would have to assume that the Welsh will FINALLY after five defeats against the Aussies in a row do the business against them in Millenium Stadium.

I think either England or Ireland has the beating of the South Africans but not both.

by Mickado Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:19 pm

You know what. I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if we did beat SA in the Autumn. We’re can’t string two good games together and f**k knows the last one wasn’t good, so maybe…

The only thing that would vindicate Kidney would be if we can consistently play good rugby and win games. so it would have to be 3 wins in the AIs and a GS for him to redeem himself.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:20 pm

I never like basing game outcomes on what has happened in the past Stag. Australia took 10 games to beat the ABs in recent times. Just because Wales are due doesn't mean they will give birth to a victory on time. Even after inducing. Victories must be earned. Not statistically allotted.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:22 pm

Guys although both teams will look totally different in the AI's, the SA team will be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger.

We will have Burger, Bekker, Vermeulen, Oosthuizen, Alberts, Lambie and if we are lucky Goosen back.

So expect a huge performance from them.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:26 pm

And if you're really, really lucky Morne Steyn injured. Whistle

Just kidding. I don't wish injuries on anyone.

No one doubts your personnel Biltong. They are big names to come back for sure. What frame of mind will they be in? They have no problem for getting up against England but too often in the past they have gone to sleep against teams like Scotland. I think though, given previous results, the hunger will definitely be there for Ireland. Will it for Ireland is another matter.

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:32 pm

Truth is we are prone to some very lacklustre performances no doubt, hopefully that can be taken out of the equation.

If they need a motivational speaker they've got my number, I will surely fir the boys up with a speech that JF Kennedy will be proud of.

by Taylorman Mon 25 Jun 2012, 4:58 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I never like basing game outcomes on what has happened in the past Stag. Australia took 10 games to beat the ABs in recent times. Just because Wales are due doesn't mean they will give birth to a victory on time. Even after inducing. Victories must be earned. Not statistically allotted.

EXACTLY kia. Well put.
Wales can beat oz in November by turning up and wanting it much more. And if they dont they turn up next time and want that one. The summer tour has no relevance because.... They're finished. Over. Take the learnings and move on.
The last game means nothing. The next...everything.

by SecretFly Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:11 pm

No. Beating SA in November would not be enough.

A Sequence would be enough. Three, four or five games on the trot where I could see a gameplan I liked, see players operating like they liked it too and the beginnings of a positive, attacking tempo for this team being finally!!!!! developed. A sequence of wins and good performances would see Kidney safe in my eyes until end of contract....but...............

Where are they? Where is even the beginnings of a sequence?

I've just been reading that Wales have I think 4 November Internationals lined up (correct me if I'm wrong on that but I think I've read it right) Ireland have 2?

That's an ambitious schedule for a coach and an IRFU that want to keep pushing the envelope in giving players an opportunity to learn and improve at International standards.

One win over South Africa wouldn't be close to being enough.

by Pot Hale Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:50 pm

biltongbek wrote:I would ( smilie removed) myself if we lose against ireland in november, or england or scotland foor that matter.

Are you actually going to leave that image there?

by **Biltong** Mon 25 Jun 2012, 5:51 pm

If it offends no.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 25 Jun 2012, 7:12 pm

Like the majority of posters I agree one win wouldn't be anywhere near enough.Home wins against S.A. and Argentina plus 4 out of 5 in the 6 Nations would be enough for me if they were accompanied by a clear gameplan.

I won't be holding my breath.

by dragonbreath Mon 25 Jun 2012, 10:54 pm

Question.

Why is Kidney unsackable. Surely anyone else managing any other team would be fired after the 12 months Ireland have had. One good win against Aus and a draw in France and that is it. Just seems odd from the outside.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 25 Jun 2012, 11:03 pm

Good question. Only the IRFU know..

by dublin_dave Wed 27 Jun 2012, 1:53 pm

like others said a win v SA followed must be followed by a triple crown or 2nd place finish in 6 nations. If so he would have earned a reprieve of sorts

by **Notch** Wed 27 Jun 2012, 4:47 pm

I think the best time to make a change is after the November internationals.

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:11 pm

Notch wrote:I think the best time to make a change is after the November internationals.

Why. Very little time left to prepare for the 6Ns (a week). The time to change is now if you are going to do it.

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:15 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Not sure you should use that emoticon again Biltong. Ireland could well have beaten NZ two weeks ago. They would have deserved it and no point getting that upset over it. I know you're only joking and Billy would never let you hear the end of it but after all it's just a game. Not a matter of life and death.

To many Irish fans - well all but Sin - even if Kidney parted the Irish sea and turned water to Guiness and got a 60 point victory against SA, their faith would still not be restored. There's a point of no return and that point was well and truly passed before the NZ tour.

The thing is though, it doesn't matter what the fans think.

Monday morning at the water cooler

O’Brien launches spirited defence of coach Kidney

By Brendan O’Brien

Wednesday, June 27, 2012

Sean O’Brien insists that Declan Kidney and his Ireland management team remain the best men for the job of driving the national 15 forward despite last Saturday’s record 60-0 defeat to New Zealand in the third Test.

That loss superseded the previous low point against the reigning world champions — a 53-point hammering in Wellington 20 years before — and marked the first time since 1924 that an Irish side had failed to score against the men in black.

The loss brought to an end a tour which saw Kidney’s side score just 29 points while conceding 124 and marked the end of the third season since the 2009 Grand Slam where the Ireland side has failed to hit its straps.

"The coaching staff, I’ve always said it, is top class there," said O’Brien yesterday when launching a new range of Specsavers SuperTough lenses for children. "How can you blame a coach for losing 60-0? You can’t. In fairness, it’s us [the players] and we have to take it on the chin.

"It’s not good enough as international players representing your country and with the support we have to go out and get hockeyed like that. It was embarrassing, to be honest. But that’s on our backs and we’ll live with that for a while and we’ll have that hurt for a while. The next time we put on the green shirt we better do it justice."

It may have been a traumatic, dispiriting tour but O’Brien spoke of positives that had been hauled from the wreckage before returning to the team’s lack of consistency, a topic which has haunted this side for far too long.

That inability to deliver anything approaching a game-to-game standard capable of producing the required performances and results is being highlighted all the more by the continued successes of the provinces.

"It is a bit frustrating but it’s a massive step from provincial rugby to international rugby," said O’Brien. "Regardless of how many Heineken Cups the provinces have won together and leagues and what not, it’s a different ball game.

"We might be guilty of not starting well. We need to fire on all cylinders from the word go and that’s what we kind of said going into that second Test over there, to start well, but we just have to do that every week we go out.

"That’s a thing that teams get so used to, when you’re in a flow and you’re winning games and you’re playing well, it’s hard to get knocked off that. If we can get that consistency we’ll be a very hard team to stop."

O’Brien spoke of taking the lessons learned in New Zealand into the November internationals against South Africa and Argentina at Lansdowne Road and it appears he may well be there to apply some himself despite reports on Monday he would be sidelined until December.

The Tullow forward will undergo surgery on a hip injury this Monday and is aiming for a four-month rehabilitation period which would, in theory, make him available for the Tests on November 10 and 24.

"I am a fairly quick healer. Any bad injury I have had I have always got back before time.

"That’s not to say I will be back before time. I have to come back when I am right and ready to go hard."

The problem has afflicted him since the World Cup.

He admitted that it had restricted his range of motion and flexibility while decreasing his power in contact and explosiveness with ball in hand but there have been some positive knock-ons too.

"At the start of the year I was frustrated because I was trying to keep that bar as high as I could but I had to find different ways of going about things and I have learned a lot this season about other aspects of the game and learned about different things at the ruck and stuff.

"Maybe I haven’t made as many breaks as last year but I think I have improved other parts of my game."

Before anyone says that of course he would say that, he could have said nothing at all. It wouldn't be the first time that an Irish team got their coach sacked (Gatland & Ella).

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/obrien-launches-spirited-defence-of-coach-kidney-198841.html

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:20 pm

I don't agree with O'Brien, regardless of whether or not he is one of my favourite players, that doesn't mean I will always agree with him. I don't think Kidney is the right man for the job and it is very clear. I think O'Brien seems like a real professional guy, and will not make excuses for himself (which is more than what Kidney has ever done) when things aren't going well. I have a lot of respect for O'Brien for what he has said actually, and for not blaming anyone else. In fact he is really becoming a leader in this irish team IMO. However, Kidney is not the right man to have in charge. His own players might not say it, but everyone else knows it.

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:28 pm

Rory, you don't think that maybe SOB is in a better position than you to evaluate Kidney as a coach. He is up close as well with Joe Schmidt and his coaching staff.

"The coaching staff, I’ve always said it, is top class there," said O’Brien

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:32 pm

biltongbek wrote:I would $&@) myself if we lose against ireland in november, or england or scotland foor that matter.

Bil, we will give you a good rattle if POC, Ferris, SOB and Bowe are fit and well (and we get no more injuries).

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:33 pm

You don't have to keep quoting parts of the article for me Sin, I can read you know. Obviously O'Brien is the one who knows Kidney on both a personal and professional level unlike myself (and probably anyone on here) but that is also why he would not be saying anything bad against his coach. As a professional player, you should always respect your coaching staff IMO. Regardless of how they are doing. As a person they may have huge respect for Kidney, and therefore turn a blind eye to the results he keeps producing. Kidney seems to be a likeable guy, but as a coach, he is very much out of his depth.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:34 pm

Also, I think the irish players and coaches have been playing the underdog thing for far too long. A winning mentality is needed here.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:41 pm

Sin é wrote:Rory, you don't think that maybe SOB is in a better position than you to evaluate Kidney as a coach. He is up close as well with Joe Schmidt and his coaching staff.

"The coaching staff, I’ve always said it, is top class there," said O’Brien

Do you honestly think a player is going to openly criticise the coach when he's still appointed? Do you think SA players publicly bagged Puff Divvy? Or take England under MJ, Ashton, AR, etc. When the games weren't going their way, if a player had said it's not our fault, our coach is clueless, he wouldn't have got picked for the next game. Of couse SOB is going to defend the coach and put the onus on the players. But is he really going to give his honest opinion on the coach?

I think fans are not without their own bias, but when something goes wrong, they usually are quite adept at pinpointing the team´s failings.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 5:44 pm

I wouldn't have been too happy if O'Brien had blamed Kidney for the loss actually. That would be completely detrimental to the team and do himself no favours. The fact he can take on the blame himself as a player, speaks volumes about the guy and his passion for the team IMO.

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:00 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
Sin é wrote:Rory, you don't think that maybe SOB is in a better position than you to evaluate Kidney as a coach. He is up close as well with Joe Schmidt and his coaching staff.

"The coaching staff, I’ve always said it, is top class there," said O’Brien

Do you honestly think a player is going to openly criticise the coach when he's still appointed? Do you think SA players publicly bagged Puff Divvy? Or take England under MJ, Ashton, AR, etc. When the games weren't going their way, if a player had said it's not our fault, our coach is clueless, he wouldn't have got picked for the next game. Of couse SOB is going to defend the coach and put the onus on the players. But is he really going to give his honest opinion on the coach?

I think fans are not without their own bias, but when something goes wrong, they usually are quite adept at pinpointing the team´s failings.

I think what happens is that you say your on your holidays now and we will look at what went wrong later in the year. Its always always leaked anyway if there is unhappiness in the camp. The headline is 'Spirited defence ..."

I wouldn't mind how England do it anyway. Everyone was well aware by the misbehaviour of some of the England players that things were not good in Johnson's camp. And Puff Divvy did last his contract.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:04 pm

Just because he lasted his contract doesn't mean he was good Sin. I hope that isn't what you are trying to suggest.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:09 pm

The headline is irrelevant. Journalists write headlines and not the players. Journalists also write with angles in mind. Like Halfpenny doesn't think Wales have earned respect. They write headlines to shift copies.

But like you say we´ll see what the holidays bring. Usually quiet time means time for reflection...

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:11 pm

I heard the sports psychologists who works with a lot of the Leinster squad (including BOD) & a some of the Irish soccer lads talking about the defeats this morning (60-0 v NZ, Soccer v Spain 4-0).

His comments on the NZ Tour:
Missing big players, season far too long and too demanding. Said Brad Thorn was amazed at the lack of rest/recovery time the players got.

Soccer defeats in Euros:
Said it was full system failure, blamed Trap & John Delaney (FAI). Players not well prepared. Tactics all wrong. Also said that the players needed to take some responsibility as well.

Note, no criticism of the Ireland Rugby management.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:13 pm

I thought you said that footballers immediately and openly blame the coaches? Wouldn't that make sense then that the rugby players don't and the footballers do? Going by your logic of course.

Also, how on earth do you know what the sports psychologists have to say about the irish players? Laugh

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:14 pm

Maybe the football psychologists' contracts had run out. Hug

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:15 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just because he lasted his contract doesn't mean he was good Sin. I hope that isn't what you are trying to suggest.

The point I was making is that he lasted his full contract even though he was regarded as poor.

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:17 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I thought you said that footballers immediately and openly blame the coaches? Wouldn't that make sense then that the rugby players don't and the footballers do? Going by your logic of course.

Also, how on earth do you know what the sports psychologists have to say about the irish players?

He was on the radio this morning. Enda McNulty. Good Ulster man. Wink

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:20 pm

What radio? You got a link to it?

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:21 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Maybe the football psychologists' contracts had run out.

He is employed by the players on an individual basis - its up to the players to select who they want to go to.
In other words, a perfect way to leak your dissatisfaction with the present management.

Heard BOD talking about sports psychologists - said he hadn't much time for them until he came across Enda.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:24 pm

Yeah, it sounds like a perfect way to voice your dissatisfaction with your coach when the psychologist tells everyone publicly on a radio show. Not find something weird about that Sin? Rolling Eyes

by Sin é Wed 27 Jun 2012, 6:25 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What radio? You got a link to it?

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thejohnmurrayshow/

Today's show - John Murray. Think it was about halfway through. Show lasts 1 hour.

by Sponsored content