Would a win over SA in November restore your faith in Kidney?

First topic message reminder :

Ireland play South Africa on 10th November,

ROG played 5 games in total for Munster since January, 3 before the Os game. So to get rid of rustiness= play in 5+ games?

Sin é wrote:I heard the sports psychologists who works with a lot of the Leinster squad (including BOD) & a some of the Irish soccer lads talking about the defeats this morning (60-0 v NZ, Soccer v Spain 4-0).

His comments on the NZ Tour:
Missing big players, season far too long and too demanding. Said Brad Thorn was amazed at the lack of rest/recovery time the players got.

Soccer defeats in Euros:
Said it was full system failure, blamed Trap & John Delaney (FAI). Players not well prepared. Tactics all wrong. Also said that the players needed to take some responsibility as well.


Note, no criticism of the Ireland Rugby management.

WOAH!
This guy is way out of line. You can't say that kinda thing about your employers in the so recent past it will get you in a lot of trouble.

Also: tactics, player preperation (physically speaking) and system failure should not be none of the phsycologists concern IMO unless it is to the player in which case he should still not mention it (doctor patient confidentiality)

This is so not right on so many levels

very unprofessional indeed. where did he say this sin?

a massive issue for me in the soccer was the fact that our key players were all carrying injuries going into the tournament. given,dunne and o shea. all critical to our hopes who were not fully fit and played very poorly. trap is also a stubborn old goat. yes he got us organised and yes he got us there but a rigid 442 at the very top level is pretty much redundant. He did not select the best available players but instead the good old "proven" international performers who did not do the business. right wrong message board apologies for digressing.

if the irish rugby management sanctioned his hiring im sure he would be very careful about criticizing them. he has jeopardised his job by leaking this information. what a wally.

Thomond wrote:ROG played 5 games in total for Munster since January, 3 before the Os game. So to get rid of rustiness= play in 5+ games?

5 games over a couple of months. The leg injury didn't help either for a kicker.

BOD played his the 7 weeks just preceeding the tour to NZ.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Sin é wrote:I heard the sports psychologists who works with a lot of the Leinster squad (including BOD) & a some of the Irish soccer lads talking about the defeats this morning (60-0 v NZ, Soccer v Spain 4-0).

His comments on the NZ Tour:
Missing big players, season far too long and too demanding. Said Brad Thorn was amazed at the lack of rest/recovery time the players got.

Soccer defeats in Euros:
Said it was full system failure, blamed Trap & John Delaney (FAI). Players not well prepared. Tactics all wrong. Also said that the players needed to take some responsibility as well.


Note, no criticism of the Ireland Rugby management.

WOAH!
This guy is way out of line. You can't say that kinda thing about your employers in the so recent past it will get you in a lot of trouble.

Also: tactics, player preparation (physically speaking) and system failure should not be none of the phsycologists concern IMO unless it is to the player in which case he should still not mention it (doctor patient confidentiality)

This is so not right on so many levels

He is an independent consultant hired by individual sports people. Seems to be very highly regarded because he has been there and done that himself (with Armagh). Read the interview I posted with him from 2008 before claiming he is unprofessional.

His company is called Motivat8 - think Shane Horgan is now doing a bit of work with (for) him.

You could argue that being out for longer is going incrase your rusitness but sure it's O'Gara so of course he was worse off right?

Thomond wrote:You could argue that being out for longer is going incrase your rusitness but sure it's O'Gara so of course he was worse off right?

You are the one who brought up O'Gara, not me.

And for the record, O'Gara wasn't fit either - he started the Os game from the bench when Johne Murphy got injured. O'Gara would have been starting if he was fit.

Sin é wrote:[


He is an independent consultant hired by individual sports people. Seems to be very highly regarded because he has been there and done that himself (with Armagh). Read the interview I posted with him from 2008 before claiming he is unprofessional.

His company is called Motivat8 - think Shane Horgan is now doing a bit of work with (for) him.

Armagh have a good rugby team so they?

dublin_dave wrote:very unprofessional indeed. where did he say this sin?

a massive issue for me in the soccer was the fact that our key players were all carrying injuries going into the tournament. given,dunne and o shea. all critical to our hopes who were not fully fit and played very poorly. trap is also a stubborn old goat. yes he got us organised and yes he got us there but a rigid 442 at the very top level is pretty much redundant. He did not select the best available players but instead the good old "proven" international performers who did not do the business. right wrong message board apologies for digressing.

if the irish rugby management sanctioned his hiring im sure he would be very careful about criticizing them. he has jeopardised his job by leaking this information. what a wally.

feed://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_thejohnmurrayshow.xml
Sports - performance coach Enda McNulty and Damian Lawlor in studio with John
Wednesday, 12:00 p.m.
Sports stories updates with Damian Lawlor of the Sunday Independent in studio with John plus Enda McNulty, All Ireland winner with Armagh & Deirdre Flynn of our Underdogs Kerry Camogie Team on the line to John

pod-v-27061223m14stjmsmcnultysportsdamian-pid0-1394400_audio.mp3

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/vincent-hogan/gospel-of-mcnulty-1304202.html

In the depths of an unfathomable low O'Driscoll turned to a sports psychologist, Enda McNulty. "I had come across a few sports psychologists and I had no time for nearly all of them," O'Driscoll says. "I just don't think they work in a team environment. But I was low in confidence and went to Enda. He was impartial and good at making me answer my own questions. He also reminded me you should work on your strengths as much as your weaknesses. You're renowned for some good things – so why not make them truly outstanding? Keep chipping away at the things you need to improve but if a player has great feet, brilliant defence or incredible composure, he should look to enhance those skills."

As confidence surges through him again, following another outstanding Six Nations, does O'Driscoll still see McNulty? "Yeah, but not that often. He'll say you shouldn't wait until you're playing badly. But I differ from him there. I really don't feel the need to go to him much now. I'm happy where I am but I'm always trying to improve. I don't know anyone who's ever had a flawless game."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/apr/26/brian-odriscoll-leinster-toulouse-heineken

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:[


He is an independent consultant hired by individual sports people. Seems to be very highly regarded because he has been there and done that himself (with Armagh). Read the interview I posted with him from 2008 before claiming he is unprofessional.

His company is called Motivat8 - think Shane Horgan is now doing a bit of work with (for) him.

Armagh have a good rugby team so they?

Probably not, Crossmaglen & the county team are the big show there - a lot of which is due to Enda and his family.

I'm of the opinion that he as a physologist to the team (THE IRISH TEAM) that he should remain neutral, part of being a physcologist is not taking sides.

I think that is very, VERY poor form.

Neither here nor there really I guess though.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm of the opinion that he as a physologist to the team (THE IRISH TEAM) that he should remain neutral, part of being a physcologist is not taking sides.

I think that is very, VERY poor form.

Neither here nor there really I guess though.

He is not the psychologist to the team (if he was, he would have been out in New Zealand).

In the interview with regard to soccer, he said he worked with a few of the Irish players (not the team). He was out in Poland.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

NOOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

I am sick to death of the sight of the men in green on the same field as us.

All they ever damned well do is whip themselves up into Paul O'Connell or some other ginger nutbag warrior inspired fecking frenzy to beat England and occassionally Australia.

It does nothing for us and nothing for them because it merely encourages the notion in all of our opponents that we have a soft underbelly while giving sucour to the myth of Irish competence.

It is a myth too. Massive massive underachievers. Horrible men in green with their choke tackling carry on!

hahaha. bizzare but brilliant post triangulation

"ginger nutbag warrior"

[quote="Triangulation"]NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

NOOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

I am sick to death of the sight of the men in green on the same field as us.

All they ever damned well do is whip themselves up into Paul O'Connell or some other ginger nutbag warrior inspired fecking frenzy to beat England and occassionally Australia.

It does nothing for us and nothing for them because it merely encourages the notion in all of our opponents that we have a soft underbelly while giving sucour to the myth of Irish competence.

It is a myth too. Massive massive underachievers. Horrible men in green with their choke tackling carry on!

Triangulation that's hilarious!

I'm glad they're still annoying some people though, they must be doing something right...

You're forgetting the last loss to England though. No soft underbelly revealed at all. No longer rising to defeat England in a frenzy. More like collapsing in a heap.

Ireland need an overhall. Badly. Our scrum and breakdown work are our only strengths. Our defence once was fantastic as was our lineout and we used to be very creative in attack albeit that was years ago.

A new coach and coaching panel are needed who have fully embraced the new laws, personally I'd like a Kiwi or Aussie. The only coaching personel I'd keep are Feek and Kiss.

Certain players need to re-evaluate where they play and to an extent their game. Some need to bulk up, some need to upskill some need to do both.

Most importantly the team needs to play with 1 vision where everyone has bought in to a system and knows where to be, when and what to do there. Leinster are outstanding at this and no one appears clueless on the ball no one is poor at clearing out a ruck. Personally I believe that we need to play attacking, quick rugby due to the size of our backs and for that we need quick service, dummy runners, good handling, ability to offload, support runners, players being comfortable on the ball.

These are things Kidney can't deliver.

Some players I would also doubt hugely whether they could play this way, guys like DOC (albeit he seems to have now been replaced).

Certain players also need to decide on a position and really work on some of their weakness's, I believe Earls' positional defence needs to improve, Heaslip needs to carry more effectively, BOD needs to be more direct in his running while still adding in footwork and neat handling, Sexton needs to line kick better, Murray's service needs to quicken up hugely, Ross needs to get fitter, POC needs to be more comfortable on the ball.

All the players have things to work on there isn't a player on the planet who doesn't have things to work on but as a unit we are not equalling the sum of our parts.

This is very depressing and things need to change.

Shining lights:

Ryan has turned in to a real gem.
SOB has transformed his game and is playing excellently.
Healy has continued his excellent learning curve and is still improving.
Kearney has really come back from bad injury and form well this season.

Come on lads, don't throw Kidney to the hounds, we've gotta unite and stand behind him, we don't want to turn into the English press and how they treat their managers. Besides, theres always more matches to play, and win, theres no need to turn our backs on the man who restored a sense of pride back into Ireland with the Grand Slam.

Pete - it is amazing to think that SOB was probably our best player despite needing surgery. Apparently that is why he hasn't been able to make his awesome carries, and why he has slipped off a few tackles recently. Yet despite all of that, he outplayed McCaw in the first 2 tests. I think the guy has more than proved everyone wrong about his abilities in the 7 shirt.

drsambo1928 wrote:Come on lads, don't throw Kidney to the hounds, we've gotta unite and stand behind him, we don't want to turn into the English press and how they treat their managers. Besides, theres always more matches to play, and win, theres no need to turn our backs on the man who restored a sense of pride back into Ireland with the Grand Slam.

The abject failure of the last 2 and a half years are more than enough reason to turn our backs on Kidney,thank him for the Grand Slam by all means but his tenure as Ireland coach has been poor overall and he shows no signs of having the ability to fix the problems we have.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

drsambo1928 wrote:Come on lads, don't throw Kidney to the hounds, we've gotta unite and stand behind him, we don't want to turn into the English press and how they treat their managers. Besides, theres always more matches to play, and win, theres no need to turn our backs on the man who restored a sense of pride back into Ireland with the Grand Slam.

The abject failure of the last 2 and a half years are more than enough reason to turn our backs on Kidney,thank him for the Grand Slam by all means but his tenure as Ireland coach has been poor overall and he shows no signs of having the ability to fix the problems we have.

But the next six nations gives Ireland home advantage over England and France. Now is a god chance to try for some silverware.

Thats the problem, I just don't believe it's possible for us to win silverware with this coaching set-up for various reasons. Don't really want to get into it again though! I've already posted a LOT of comments about it above.

Yep we've been trying and failing miserably for the last 3 seasons,I can't see that changing and it's a pity as Kidney has done a lot right in his career but unfortunately this period will leave a tarnish on that record.

Well who do you want as coach then, we don't want to end up like England in the years they went through various coaches.

Mike Ruddock or Joe Schmidt would be my preferences,no we don't want to be going through coaches every year or 2 but we don't have a history of that so I'd be happy to see whoever comes in get a contract until a month or two after the next WC.

The real problem here is it could come to that as we have left it so late to bring players through in certain key positions (whether they are starters or back up). Ideally we would have brought through the less experienced options that are looking for a starting place one by one rather than all at once, but as things are we might end up having a few inexperienced guys all thrown in the deep end at the same time. There does need to be a balance, and unfortunately the next coach may have trouble fixing it.

Well I think you want to back whoever gets in for three or four years to get it right. Thats what I've done with Kidney and thats what I'll do with the new man.

Very good article here on Kidney

http://dementedmole.com/2012/06/29/joe-duffy-on-speed-dial/#more-2971


Out of interest how much is Kidneys contract worth?? It can hardly be that expensive for the IRFU to buy out the last 8/9 months of it can it?

Thanks for the link Golden. I have to highlight this in particular for Sin, who tries to use this in his defence for Kidney:

"The players don’t employ the coach – anybody who got left out of a starting team might otherwise sack him in a fit of pique. Whether or not players like a coach isn’t the deciding factor in his continued employment … that’d be the performances his team produces and the results they achieve."

eh? No I didn't and I don't.

(I have made responses to silly comments about him having lost the dressing room though).

You said the other day that the players have no problem with Kidney as a coach, no? You used the example of O'Brien and what he has said since the defeat in NZ. He said he stands by the coaching staff completely and that it was the players.

Sorry if I have misunderstood.

Completely agree with Rory re: SOB. He was easily one of our top 2 players along with Ryan on this tour.

I would take Joe Schmidt or somesuch Kiwi/Aussie.

I don't really want an Irish coach to coach Ireland if I am honest

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

I don't really want an Irish coach to coach Ireland if I am honest

Thats probably down to the fact that Leinster have never produced a decent coach in their entire history and you can't bear the thoughts of an Ulster/Munster/Connacht/Quins coach lording it over you

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

I don't really want an Irish coach to coach Ireland if I am honest

Thats probably down to the fact that Leinster have never produced a decent coach in their entire history and you can't bear the thoughts of an Ulster/Munster/Connacht/Quins coach lording it over you

Conor O'Shea played for Leinster.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

I don't really want an Irish coach to coach Ireland if I am honest

Thats probably down to the fact that Leinster have never produced a decent coach in their entire history and you can't bear the thoughts of an Ulster/Munster/Connacht/Quins coach lording it over you

You can say all the "probably"'s you want Sin but that is DEFINITELY not the reason. Please don't try and put words in my mouth and/or start a provincial cat fight.

I think an Aussie or Kiwi coach will coach us the way I think we need to play. Playing 2009 rules gameplan is obviously a bad call. Playing like we are S.Africa is obviously a bad call.

We need to play with what we have, small backs and mobile/agressive forwards. To play with these resources it would make much more sense to play an innovative attack (a la Leinster).

Crashing the ball up and kicking it away will win us nothing of any note anymore

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

I don't really want an Irish coach to coach Ireland if I am honest

Thats probably down to the fact that Leinster have never produced a decent coach in their entire history and you can't bear the thoughts of an Ulster/Munster/Connacht/Quins coach lording it over you

Conor O'Shea played for Leinster.

Born in Limerick, spent most his career with London Irish.

Ex Leinster player coaches Leinster and you think that Leinster players/fans couldn't bare him "Lording it over them"? Ha, you're top quality. Given that Leinster haven't produced a top quality coach, and we're still the best team in the history of European club rugby I'd say the fans and players have gotten used to success without being precious about who's coaching them.

ROG was born in America, so I guess he isn't Munster produced.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Crashing the ball up and kicking it away will win us nothing of any note anymore

We're doing neither at the moment.

For the record, NZ kicked the ball more than Ireland did in the 60-0 slaughtering.

Kicks from Hand:
1st test: NZ 15. Ireland 17.
2nd test: NZ 16. Ireland 17.
3rd test: NZ 24. Ireland 18.

And for the record of NZ, Aus, Wales, SA & England - Ireland kicked the least.

No more of these old cliches please

Rory_Gallagher wrote:ROG was born in America, so I guess he isn't Munster produced.

ROG spent all of his rugby career in Munster. O'Shea played all his pro rugby with London Irish.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:ROG was born in America, so I guess he isn't Munster produced.

I notice he didn’t mention how O’Shea went to school in Terenure and started his career with Lansdowne…

In fact a few weeks ago I remember him saying that O’Shea was a Leinster coach. Whatever suits the dig he’s taking at the best team in the history of European club rugby (Leinster ) I suppose…

Mickado wrote:Ex Leinster player coaches Leinster and you think that Leinster players/fans couldn't bare him "Lording it over them"? Ha, you're top quality. Given that Leinster haven't produced a top quality coach, and we're still the best team in the history of European club rugby I'd say the fans and players have gotten used to success without being precious about who's coaching them.

Anyone but Irish province ....

Mickado wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:ROG was born in America, so I guess he isn't Munster produced.

I notice he didn’t mention how O’Shea went to school in Terenure and started his career with Lansdowne…

In fact a few weeks ago I remember him saying that O’Shea was a Leinster coach. Whatever suits the dig he’s taking at the best team in the history of European club rugby (Leinster ) I suppose…

I didn't mention where any of them went to school - Terenure College (just like Pres Cork) would have nothing to do with O'Shea or O'Gara taking up coaching careers.

Leinster still a bit behind on the win stakes in European rugby though, so I'm not sure you can claim to be the best team in the history of European Club Glory. History can be changed by Toulouse or Munster winning it next year if you want to ignore the actual standings of the win/loss ratio in Europe;)

Toulouse: Wins 88. Draws 4; Losses: 33
Munster: Wins: 86, Draws:1. Lossess: 35
Leinster: Wins: 77; Draws: 3. Losses: 35.
Leicester: Wins 73; Dra 4; Losses 35.

I was going to bother correcting you there Sin, clearly you don't know what best TEAM means.

Mickado wrote:I was going to bother correcting you there Sin, clearly you don't know what best TEAM means.

I'd say clearly you don't understand the meaning of best team in the history of means ....

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.

Spoiler:

Right Sin what is our game plan if we aren't crashing it up the middle and kicking it away?

Just because the AB's kicked more in 1 test doesn't mean we aren't kicking the ball away. The AB's can kick for touch well and pressure us, we weren't doing the same as the AB wingers could drop back as we weren't threatening their defence so they could afford to cut off the touch line to us.

You've just made this in to a catfight again and are spoiling another thread. I'd love an Aussie/Kiwi coach because I think they would suit our physique and get the best out of us, not due to any Leinster coaching history, cut it out.

Sin, I'd love to meet you on a rugby pitch, I REALLY would.

Sin é wrote:
I didn't mention where any of them went to school - Terenure College (just like Pres Cork) would have nothing to do with O'Shea or O'Gara taking up coaching careers.

Leinster still a bit behind on the win stakes in European rugby though, so I'm not sure you can claim to be the best team in the history of European Club Glory. History can be changed by Toulouse or Munster winning it next year if you want to ignore the actual standings of the win/loss ratio in Europe;)

Toulouse: Wins 88. Draws 4; Losses: 33
Munster: Wins: 86, Draws:1. Lossess: 35
Leinster: Wins: 77; Draws: 3. Losses: 35.
Leicester: Wins 73; Dra 4; Losses 35.

Those are mighty weak straws you're clutching at.

That demented mole blog is a pretty damning indictment.

This was the biggest test defeat in the sixteen-year history of professional rugby in Ireland

he has lost four games on the trot by an aggregate score of 38-154.

Look at the downward trend of results in the Six Nations under his tenure:

2009 P5 W5 D0 L0;
2010 P5 W3 D0 L2;
2011 P5 W3 D0 L2;
2010 P5 W2 D1 L2

An all the while our provinces and under age teams are doing better than ever. In particular Leinster, with nearly all Irish players, are dominating Europe like no other since the inception of the HC. This coaching team are clearly not doing a good job. And anyone who thinks they are are living in la-la land.

Are Leinster the best team in European history? No Toulouse are, more trophy wins and that's it. Are Leinster what our American friends would call a Dynasty? Yes they are and they are the best dynasty in European Club Rugby history.


I would say Ireland kick the ball away a lot, I wouldn't mind kicking if we did it intelligently, the way we go about it is asinine. That's the issue.

Thomond wrote:Are Leinster the best team in European history? No Toulouse are, more trophy wins and that's it. Are Leinster what our American friends would call a Dynasty? Yes they are and they are the best dynasty in European Club Rugby history.


I would say Ireland kick the ball away a lot, I wouldn't mind kicking if we did it intelligently, the way we go about it is asinine. That's the issue.

Toulouse are the best club/province/franchise in the history of the comp but this current Leinster team is the best team in the history of the comp.The Toulouse teams that did all that dominating show huge changes in personnel whereas this Leinster team that is currently dominating shows very few.

At least that's my take on it but I am a Leinster fan so I'm bound to be a little biased.

edit:Just reread your post and it appears we're using different words to say the same thing.