Would a win over SA in November restore your faith in Kidney?

by clivemcl Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ireland play South Africa on 10th November,

by Sin é Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:28 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, it sounds like a perfect way to voice your dissatisfaction with your coach when the psychologist tells everyone publicly on a radio show. Not find something weird about that Sin?

He was fairly critical of the soccer boys management, FAI, system etc.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:32 pm

Sin, that has nothing to do with what I said. If that guy is apparently the guy to go to and voice your concerns about the management, then obviously he wouldn't be mentioning that stuff to the public. And if he does, then obviously that isn't the perfect way to voice your concerns about the management because he will tell the whole public!

Do you not see how stupid that is?

by Sin é Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, that has nothing to do with what I said. If that guy is apparently the guy to go to and voice your concerns about the management, then obviously he wouldn't be mentioning that stuff to the public. And if he does, then obviously that isn't the perfect way to voice your concerns about the management because he will tell the whole public!

Do you not see how stupid that is?

Who said anything about the players wanting him to voice their concerns?

He was giving his opinion on the tours and as he would obviously some of them well he would pick up on what wasn't right.

Good interview with him here going back 4 years ago. Even discusses the ABs meltdown at the '07 world cup.

Gospel of McNulty
Armagh veteran spreads word on 'performance excellence' as the hunger for another Sam drives him to the limit on the field

By Vincent Hogan

Monday March 03 2008

Ted Williams, the late, great Boston Red Sox left-fielder, was a man rarely hamstrung in the business of self-regard.

Fishing was his second passion and he considered himself rather good at it. "Ain't no-one in heaven or earth ever knew more about fishing," he announced one day to a Boston sportswriter.

"Sure there is!" he was told.

"Oh yeah, who?"

"Well, God made the fish."

"Okay" agreed Williams reluctantly. "But you had to go pretty far back!"

When Enda McNulty was 15, his Dad handed him a book. It was 'The Inner Game of Tennis' by Timothy Galway. Neither father nor son played tennis or, for that matter, had much interest in it as a game. But, then, tennis wasn't the point of the gift.

Galway's subject was the psychology of competition, the search for inner strength, for a Ted Williams-like self-regard even.

Joe McNulty, a teacher, had a specific interest in that field. In the 60s, he had graduated with a degree in psychology from Queen's University and continued to read voraciously on the subject. Actually, he still does to this day.

And Joe reckoned that his son could do worse than have a browse at 'The Inner Game of Tennis.'

Enda McNulty is a cultural trespasser now. A sales rep of sorts, with a suitcase full of positivity. He recoils slightly from the title "sport psychologist", because -- he says --the mind is only part of it. Working "in performance excellence" is how he likes to describe his job.

McNulty's client-base is expanding and includes some of Ireland's brightest international sports stars.

And, therein, lies a beautiful irony. For so much of his message, so much of the competition wisdom he now dispenses, has been crash-tested on the plain, hard football fields of Ulster.

McNulty, you see, is 31 and into his 12th season soldiering with Armagh. Recently, he lined out against Monaghan in a floodlit challenge. January football, a sparse crowd, a heavy pitch, a wind blowing through with serrated edges. Early-season torture. He loved it.

Living in Dublin, he drives north for training every week and has yet to experience that ache of dread old soldiers get at the waning of the light. And, anyway, Enda has a good feeling about Armagh this year. He doesn't want to trumpet it, but he senses a strong glue holding things together now.

A graduate in sports science, McNulty is loathe to depict himself as any kind of guru. He studiously keeps his peace when in the Armagh dressing-room, insisting that he is there simply as a player. But they are accustomed to his intensity. Over the years, McNulty was always the one looking for that extra inch. Playing little games with himself. Stretching his mind.

"A lot of what I did didn't work," he chuckles. "I had to learn by trial and error. Some of the stuff I was doing was way over the top. The other players would have nearly laughed at me because I'd be doing too much. I'd be too focused nearly.

"Like, I always taped my wrists. But I'd have five letters written on the wrist-tape. The letters would symbolise five things I wanted to do. It took me maybe two years before I realised it was too much information. Paralysis by analysis, almost. The thing to do is let it flow. Go with instinct. Don't think, just act. Play.

"It took away from my game I would say for two or three years in my prime."

His gospel now has an enthusiastic market. When Irish athlete, David Gillick, retained his European Indoor 400 metres crown so impressively in Birmingham last year, the Dundrum athlete did not hesitate to acknowledge McNulty's contribution. "I am blown away by how much sports psychology has to do with winning," said Gillick.

McNulty works with a number of rugby internationals too, among them Leinster hooker, Bernard Jackman (arguably playing the best rugby of his career now) and regularly addresses corporate gatherings. His mission is to get people to reach the best of their inner selves. That search is never-ending but, believing, is half the challenge.

As he puts it: "If it can't happen, why did somebody climb Mount Everest when everyone was saying it couldn't be done? Why, when Roger Bannister beat the four minute mile, did others start doing it in the next two or three weeks?

"You have to believe. I mean Armagh had never won an All-Ireland until 2002, then went and beat the greatest county in the game in that year's final. They did it because they believed it was possible.

"I believe there's always a tipping point. It's a bit like the book, 'Tipping Point' by Malcolm Gladwell. There's a tipping point in every team's development. For us, it was probably 2000. Losing that replay in extra-time against Kerry.

"There was a realisation afterwards. 'Hang on here. Only we messed up today, we'd have won the match!'

"So defeat wasn't a disaster. We actually learnt from it."

Reading

He continues: "Look, I wouldn't say I know 10pc of what I should know about mental preparation. I'm no Dali Lama. I'm no guru. But I'm hungry to learn. Every single day, I'm reading about it, I'm meeting people, I'm trying to find out more."

The reading, he acknowledges, can only carry an athlete so far.

Maybe the specific appeal of McNulty above others in his trade is that he can apply personal experience to the theory. Apart from his own still vibrant playing career, McNulty was Director of Coaching at Ballyboden-St Enda's for four years before crossing the city to Na Fianna in 2005.

When he talks of the changing-room environment, he need never seek refuge in hypotheses.

"You can do all the degrees, all the courses you want," he agrees. "But don't speak of 'the buzz' unless you've been in the bullring. I think athletes or sports people in general respect people who've been there, who've played in front of 80,000 people, been beaten, been embarrassed even in front of 80,000 people, been almost clinically depressed after a defeat.

"The vast majority of my learning would have been in a practical, applied scenario rather than just reading. You've got to put it into practice and find out if it works."

Joe McNulty was coach to the Armagh team that reached the '82 All-Ireland football semi-final. Enda's brother, Justin, currently manages St Brigid's in Dublin. The lineage is unambiguous.

For years, Joe carried a picture of the Sam Maguire around in his wallet. It was a private, personal gesture, un-connected to any profound mottos or prophesies. Enda believes it might have been rooted to a simple hope that, when Armagh finally crossed the Rubicon, his family's footprints would be in the sand.

They were too, Enda and Justin both playing that famous day.

Under Joe Kernan, Armagh would be the antithesis of their old caricature. They became stony and nerveless and savvied. From a history of self-doubt, they began trading in plain certainty. Kernan, clearly, was the catalyst. But he had the men to carry the message too.

As McNulty recalls: "Look at Munster. Those guys believe they can pull on that Munster jersey and beat any other team in the world. It becomes a culture thing. Same thing with Crossmaglen in Armagh club football. There's no one reason for them being different to other teams. It just becomes an intrinsic confidence. It's part of their ethos, part of their being.

"In gaelic games, rugby, soccer, whatever, I believe you're going to need five to six absolute leaders for that to happen. Leaders, not in terms of being good at talking to the press or even in the changing-room, but in terms of knowing when the chips are down in a game and being able to step up to the plate.

"Luckily, in Armagh, we had those guys. The dogs of war, if you like. I would think back to Kieran Hughes, Cathal O'Rourke, Francie Bellew, Kieran McGeeney, Paul McGrane. Natural leaders. That leadership doesn't come from being in the gym a hundred times a year. You don't develop that from pushing weights. Someone used the word 'eco-system' to me recently and that's pretty much what it is. Just fellas feeding off one another, trying to be better than each other all the time."

He often thinks back to 2002. Back to a chance meeting with Eamonn Colemen, the late, great Derry manager, maybe two weeks before the final. "Any advice?" he asked the canny Ballymaguigan man.

"Aye," said Coleman "enjoy every single bit of it, the build-up, everything, because you might never get back there again."

He has seen ennui and sloppiness in certain Irish sports that professional confidences preclude him from divulging. "You'd be surprised how poor some of the standards are."

Preaches

So, endlessly he preaches the need for a holistic approach to preparation.

"Mental preparation on its own is a waste of time," says McNulty. "That's why I wouldn't call myself a sports psychologist. Because, if your physical conditioning is not good, if your lifestyle isn't good, if your technical coaching hasn't been good, if your tactical awareness isn't good, you're just not going to win.

"I'd say that to assume that everybody at the top level of Irish sport has looked after all those areas would be a massive assumption to make. In my view, we're not even getting close to world class level in that regard."

McNulty did spend a month in Japan last year at the World Championships with the Irish athletics team and was hugely impressed by what he saw. "Actually, I was blown away by their professionalism," he says.

Yet, almost certainly, most of those same athletes are doomed to a harsh post-mortem after this year's Olympic Games in Beijing. Once every four years we place them under the whitest of lights and wait for coronations. Then the disappointment untaps vitriol.

"What's the point of stabbing people in the back?" asks McNulty. "You can see it now. Athletics Ireland will be blamed. The Irish Sports Council. Everyone will blame everyone else and it won't do the athletes an ounce of good.

"People need to be positive and talk about what we can do, not what we didn't do...

"We're developing great kids in Irish sport, great people. But how do we bring it to a new level? How do we mirror what happened with the Celtic Tiger in Irish sport? Sports psychology shouldn't be out on a limb. It should just be part of it all. It should be run of the mill.

"But every aspect of Irish sport needs to be improved. Not just the facilities, not just the coaching, not just mental preparation, not just developing leaders, every single aspect has to be improved. Because we're so far behind, it's scary."

Confidence, he sees as a double-edged sword. The experience of the All Blacks at last year's Rugby World Cup provided one of the most compelling case-studies of communal meltdown ever witnessed in sport. McNulty, naturally, found the spectacle compelling.

"No-one can tell me that wasn't down to mental preparation," he says. "There had to be a major frailty there in terms of the mental toughness of that team. And, like I say, you don't get that in the gym.

"I was talking to one of their backroom staff when they were in Ireland two years ago about their mental preparation. He told me 'We have a guy the players can go to if they need him!' Well, I'd say they'll probably review that now. They'll probably go to new levels of mental preparation now. It'll have to become part of everything they do.

"You couldn't say there was anything wrong with them physically. I've read a good few interviews with Dan Carter since. He said that, in hindsight, the fact that they hadn't got beaten in the run-up to the World Cup was a major disaster for them. Because when you get beaten, you learn.

"And that's the key to it. You learn humility. Because ego is a dangerous thing in sport."

McNulty reads voraciously -- Bob Rotella, Phil Jackson, his old mentor, John Cramer. He listens to good people. He has a friend, Dessie Ryan, a 65-year-old ex-fireman from New York. Ryan has lived a life worth living.

"We think we're tough," says McNulty. "But it's not tough by comparison with being in a fifty-storey high brownstone building that's falling down around you and you're trying to get a wee girl out. Going for a 50/50 ball in front of 50,000 people pales into insignificance when compared to that."

Even old Ted Williams would have to bow to the blinding truth of that.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/vincent-hogan/gospel-of-mcnulty-1304202.html

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:57 pm

"He is employed by the players on an individual basis - its up to the players to select who they want to go to.
In other words, a perfect way to leak your dissatisfaction with the present management."

You did..

by Sin é Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:10 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"He is employed by the players on an individual basis - its up to the players to select who they want to go to.
In other words, a perfect way to leak your dissatisfaction with the present management."

You did..

You've got me Rory.

What I would say so is that McNulty who probably wouldn't need to be told by anyone what went wrong (considering his own sporting background) came up with two different conclusions to what was wrong with two big losses to Irish sporting teams this week.

by **Notch** Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:11 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:I think the best time to make a change is after the November internationals.

Why. Very little time left to prepare for the 6Ns (a week). The time to change is now if you are going to do it.

Because thats the time to change systems. After the Autumn Internationals, the seedings for the next World Cup are set in stone. So, get through the Autumn and then change ahead of the spring. The two tests we have in the autumn are actually quite a lot more important than the Six Nations this year.

I don't know if the week you're referring to is the preparation time the coaches have with the players before the first test of the Six Nations, given the two month gap between the end of November and the start of February, but there is a crucial training camp in December plus four Heineken Cup matches for each of the provinces. Moreover, thats a great run to get into the job. Five tests of varying difficulty followed by a summer tour to North America during the Lions. If we're serious about the need to completely revamp our gameplan and have a look at various new players thats an ideal run.

by **Notch** Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:20 pm

Your man McNulty makes a lot of good points, but you do a lot of posters a disservice in implying we're stabbing Kidney in the back. You're kind of lumping the rabid anti-kidney brigade with the 90% of fans who simply believe he's done everything he can, and he has little left to offer. It's not that he's got a lot of things wrong; it's that he's got a lot of things wrong across three years and shown he hasn't the capability to put them right.

I'm not going to go out and launch a scathing character assassination of the man, I have every admiration for how he's conducted himself. But at the same time, if I want to see my national team progress he has a short term future as coach. Not a long term future. He doesn't have the answers. We need to identify someone who does.

by Hound_of_Harrow Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:35 pm

I'm reading this with interest. Playing devil's advocate, and assuming Kidney goes, who would Irish fans replace him with? Ideally, what qualities would the successor have? Coaching ability, motivator, good selector in terms of putting a team together that is more than the sum of its parts, media savvy, ability to keep the supporters happy and the sponsors on board?

There's a lot to the job requirements for an international rugby coach.

In other words, write a job description for your head coach and then identify someone with those ideal qualities.

The Provinces have massively raised the profile of Irish rugby over the last decade or so; consistently winning the HC in recent years. How would your choice of successor tap into what makes the Provinces successful, and maximise the undoubted ability of the individual players for the good of the Irish national team?

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:43 pm

For me, Schmidt would be the best option if he was interested. I don't know if he will be, but I don't think he will take any crap from his players, or his staff, or the media. He won't be putting up with the underdog status IMO. Apparently he comes down hard on his players too, pointing out who has missed a tackle or whatever. He strikes me as the type of coach who won't be happy with anything other than a win. We need that. No more "small margins" speeches.

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:54 pm

Is this subject really about International rugby or is it irish domestic rugby?

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:55 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:For me, Schmidt would be the best option if he was interested. I don't know if he will be, but I don't think he will take any crap from his players, or his staff, or the media. He won't be putting up with the underdog status IMO. Apparently he comes down hard on his players too, pointing out who has missed a tackle or whatever. He strikes me as the type of coach who won't be happy with anything other than a win. We need that. No more "small margins" speeches.

Schmidt is a perfectionist. When we put 50 points on bath he was still very annoyed about the 20 points we conceded. He is always looking for ways leinster can improve

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:27 pm

I think Ireland need that. Someone who won't put up with an "almost" result against NZ.

by Sin é Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:44 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:For me, Schmidt would be the best option if he was interested. I don't know if he will be, but I don't think he will take any crap from his players, or his staff, or the media. He won't be putting up with the underdog status IMO. Apparently he comes down hard on his players too, pointing out who has missed a tackle or whatever. He strikes me as the type of coach who won't be happy with anything other than a win. We need that. No more "small margins" speeches.
Schmidt is a perfectionist. When we put 50 points on bath he was still very annoyed about the 20 points we conceded. He is always looking for ways leinster can improve

How did he react to the loss in the Magners Final?

by Sin é Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:50 pm

Notch wrote:Your man McNulty makes a lot of good points, but you do a lot of posters a disservice in implying we're stabbing Kidney in the back. You're kind of lumping the rabid anti-kidney brigade with the 90% of fans who simply believe he's done everything he can, and he has little left to offer. It's not that he's got a lot of things wrong; it's that he's got a lot of things wrong across three years and shown he hasn't the capability to put them right.

I'm not going to go out and launch a scathing character assassination of the man, I have every admiration for how he's conducted himself. But at the same time, if I want to see my national team progress he has a short term future as coach. Not a long term future. He doesn't have the answers. We need to identify someone who does.

I wasn't trying to point the finger at any posters in particular on this board - just highlighting the 'who to blame' reaction is predictable and obviously replicated across the sports. I'm not lumping the anti-Kidney brigade with anything. McNulty is describing what happens in sport in general (though there were quite a lot of people who never wanted Kidney in the first place and were only hoping he would slip up).

by Sin é Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:54 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Ireland need that. Someone who won't put up with an "almost" result against NZ.

Did you listen to the McNulty interview? If so, what did you think of what was said?

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:58 pm

Haven't gotten round to it yet - will listen now.

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:59 pm

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:For me, Schmidt would be the best option if he was interested. I don't know if he will be, but I don't think he will take any crap from his players, or his staff, or the media. He won't be putting up with the underdog status IMO. Apparently he comes down hard on his players too, pointing out who has missed a tackle or whatever. He strikes me as the type of coach who won't be happy with anything other than a win. We need that. No more "small margins" speeches.
Schmidt is a perfectionist. When we put 50 points on bath he was still very annoyed about the 20 points we conceded. He is always looking for ways leinster can improve

How did he react to the loss in the Magners Final?

He was very angry at the ref obviously

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:05 pm

It says O'Brien needs a hip operation? I thought it was a shoulder operation?

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:10 pm

"Surely with the coaching team we have" - he is referring to the fact we surely should have done better under Kidney and his merry men.

Well yeah we should have done better than that, but under Kidney we aren't actually winning anything.

These guys seem to rate the coaches very highly based on reputation once again.

by Sin é Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:17 pm

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:I think the best time to make a change is after the November internationals.

Why. Very little time left to prepare for the 6Ns (a week). The time to change is now if you are going to do it.

Because thats the time to change systems. After the Autumn Internationals, the seedings for the next World Cup are set in stone. So, get through the Autumn and then change ahead of the spring. The two tests we have in the autumn are actually quite a lot more important than the Six Nations this year.

For Ireland to move out of the top 8, Scotland would have to beat the ABs & SA (and I think if Scotland does that, a fully fit Irish team would beat SA).

Argentina will have to get through the 4Ns intact and then face France, Wales & Ireland. It will be a tough year for them.

I don't know if the week you're referring to is the preparation time the coaches have with the players before the first test of the Six Nations, given the two month gap between the end of November and the start of February, but there is a crucial training camp in December plus four Heineken Cup matches for each of the provinces. Moreover, thats a great run to get into the job. Five tests of varying difficulty followed by a summer tour to North America during the Lions. If we're serious about the need to completely revamp our gameplan and have a look at various new players thats an ideal run.

4 Heineken cup matches are irrelevant to a new coach. He would probably be reduced to doing what Gatland did when he joined Wales and play the Ospreys (and he had more time to prepare as he was appointed in Nov).

by Mickado Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:43 am

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:For me, Schmidt would be the best option if he was interested. I don't know if he will be, but I don't think he will take any crap from his players, or his staff, or the media. He won't be putting up with the underdog status IMO. Apparently he comes down hard on his players too, pointing out who has missed a tackle or whatever. He strikes me as the type of coach who won't be happy with anything other than a win. We need that. No more "small margins" speeches.
Schmidt is a perfectionist. When we put 50 points on bath he was still very annoyed about the 20 points we conceded. He is always looking for ways leinster can improve

How did he react to the loss in the Magners Final?

He was angry.

by **Biltong** Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:52 am

Just a note to all you guys, pick on someone else to beat, we are rebuilding and don't need any losses. steam

by **Notch** Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:17 am

Sin é wrote:4 Heineken cup matches are irrelevant to a new coach.

Yes Sin, form is irrelevant in selection Rolling Eyes

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:51 am

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:4 Heineken cup matches are irrelevant to a new coach.

Yes Sin, form is irrelevant in selection

It was for Gatland. He just selected the Ospreys for the 6ns and he was appointed in early November so would have observed all 4 Heineken cup games that the Welsh regions played in. Both the Ospreys & Cardiff made the knock-outs of the HCup that season and the Scarlets had a very difficult group (Clermont, Munster & Wasps).

No new coach is going to mess going into a tournament based on seeing them play well for their club and coaching them for a week prior to a big tournament. They will go with the proven performers at international level.

by SecretFly Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:25 pm

Sin é wrote: They will go with the proven performers at international level.

Considering that is now a rarity, I'd suggest the proven performers have seeped back into the common pond of potential (nothing more)...and can be chosen or not chosen accordingly -without too many headaches about 'what if the alternatives don't perform?'.

Claiming that Irish players have proven their future potential on past performances at International level is not going to be of much benefit to anyone - players or coaches - even a brand new coach. New coach, new eyes, new beginning.

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:09 pm

Just not time to do it all then with the pressure of a big tournament coming up. Don't forget he will have to appoint backroom staff as well. There isn't even indigenous staff available to pick up the job at short notice on a temporary basis like England did with Lancaster as the 'A' Coaches have fulltime jobs with the provinces (Elwood & Foley), though I suppose we could always bring back Eddie.

I bet a new coach would pick the following team if all were fit.:
Healy, Best, Ross, Ryan, POC, Ferris, SOB, Heislip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, D'arcy, BOD, Bowe, Kearney. Subs: Court, Cronin, Fitzpatrick, DOC, POM, Reddan & ROG & Fitz.

Only place that someone might break into the team is at 12 - but no one has really put their hand up for that job and I doubt if a new coach would even attempt to persuade BOD to move to inside centre in a week.

by dublin_dave Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:26 pm

i would hope a new coach would come in and do the following:

1) get a backs coach and aim to reinvigorate our pedestrian (some say sh1t) back play.
2) make a hard call and say to Rog,Donners,Darcy (maybe even Drico if he has balls of steel) and say thanks for the memories lads we are building for the next world cup and you will not be here. step forward madigan,toner,jj hanrahan etc.
3) quickly abandon the outdated slow plodding style of rugby we have played for the last 2 years. We simply do not have the set piece and raw power to be the South Africa of 2007.

the fact that the side you name sin e is so settled is part of the problem. they have delivered crap results over the last 2 years.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:33 pm

Notch wrote:
Sin é wrote:4 Heineken cup matches are irrelevant to a new coach.

Yes Sin, form is irrelevant in selection

Wow. Sin, you cannot be serious?

Laugh

by dublin_dave Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:46 pm

Its comical isnt it.

i would suggest any new coach worth his salt would be absolutely glued to the HC and if he arrives from the Southern Hemisphere will do a rigorous video analysis of how IRish players performed in the 4 games.

If Sin had his way we would play the same team every week without fail win lose or draw.

Until Irish international teams add some competition to the selection process and grow balls to drop "proven performers" not performing both the rugby team and also the soccer team will get absolutely nowhere and will continue to go backwards

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:52 pm

dublin_dave wrote:i would hope a new coach would come in and do the following:

1) get a backs coach and aim to reinvigorate our pedestrian (some say sh1t) back play.
2) make a hard call and say to Rog,Donners,Darcy (maybe even Drico if he has balls of steel) and say thanks for the memories lads we are building for the next world cup and you will not be here. step forward madigan,toner,jj hanrahan etc.
3) quickly abandon the outdated slow plodding style of rugby we have played for the last 2 years. We simply do not have the set piece and raw power to be the South Africa of 2007.

the fact that the side you name sin e is so settled is part of the problem. they have delivered crap results over the last 2 years.

I don't think you have been following the debate - it centres around timing. Notch reckons that after the AIs, Kidney should be sacked. I say, if you are going to sack him, now is the time to do it.

The side I posted up there is the side I think would be selected by any new coach with one week with the players to prepare for the 6Ns and probably no backroom staff) which is what Gatland did, even though he had staff who would have been well informed around them (Shaun Edwards/Wasps had Scarlets in their HCup group).

Toner can't get ahead of a 38 year old! Madigan can't take place kicks - you hope JJ is going to take them for him? Very Happy

Personally, I'd prefer if JJ was getting gametime with Munster rather than holding tackled bags for the seniors.

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:55 pm

dublin_dave wrote:Its comical isnt it.

i would suggest any new coach worth his salt would be absolutely glued to the HC and if he arrives from the Southern Hemisphere will do a rigorous video analysis of how IRish players performed in the 4 games.

If Sin had his way we would play the same team every week without fail win lose or draw.

Until Irish international teams add some competition to the selection process and grow balls to drop "proven performers" not performing both the rugby team and also the soccer team will get absolutely nowhere and will continue to go backwards

The Welsh posters won't like you saying that Gats didn't do his homework when he came up from the SH Wink

. He just picked the Ospreys and he was appointed on 6 Nov which gave him about 10 weeks to look at videos before the 6Ns.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:55 pm

Sin stop being so ignorant, you know fine rightly Madigan can take the kicks. You have been told so many times now.

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:02 pm

double post

by Feckless Rogue Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:02 pm

I wanted him gone after the 2010 6 Nations and Autumn internationals. Alarm bells were ringing in my head about our appalling attempts at playing running rugby. It dawned on me that Kidney has never coached a team to play that way. And probably never will. But his old way of winning was being left behind after the change in tackle laws. He was not the man for the job in my mind even back then.

The best time for him to go would have been after the RWC failure. But the IRFU had stupidly given him a contract just before the RWC. We did the same with Eddie last time. And actually we did the same with our soccer manager. Honestly, does any other country do this? It seems so much more sensible to wait until we see how the team performs in the tournament before extending the contract.

Now that there's a year left on the contract, I'm sure he won't be sacked. He'll run out the contract, be thanked for the Grand Slam and we'll move on.

by Thomond Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:04 pm

Munster played far better rugby under Kidney then Ireland do now.

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:06 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I wanted him gone after the 2010 6 Nations and Autumn internationals. Alarm bells were ringing in my head about our appalling attempts at playing running rugby. It dawned on me that Kidney has never coached a team to play that way. And probably never will. But his old way of winning was being left behind after the change in tackle laws. He was not the man for the job in my mind even back then.

You a very recent bandwagoner then at Leinster?

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:05 pm

Thomond wrote:Munster played far better rugby under Kidney then Ireland do now.

Yeah they weren't a fling it wide at every opportunity team but they weren't all grunt and kick either,the problem is Kidney tried getting Ireland to play an expansive game but then we lost the 6 Nations game at home to Scotland and we seem to have stopped trying that way.Now we don't seem to have any real plan and it doesn't look like Kidney has any new ideas.

by **Notch** Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:11 pm

Sin é wrote:The side I posted up there is the side I think would be selected by any new coach with one week with the players to prepare for the 6Ns

You just aren't getting that it isn't about players. I disagree with some of the individual selection calls Kidney has made, many do, but the majority of his squads are close enough. I don't care if a new coach picks 13 Leinster players at first if it means we start playing rugby that makes sense. We won't get the gameplan right without a new coach- that's why I've slowly changed my mind from being pro-Kidney and defending him to wanting a new regime installed in the next year.

Personally, I'd prefer if JJ was getting gametime with Munster rather than holding tackled bags for the seniors.

Childish jibes about a Munster player vs Leinster player in same position aside, I agree.

by dublin_dave Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:27 pm

sin even if we appointed a new manager jan 2013 i would hope that they would factor in HC form and get up to speed quickly. If you apply for a job and go through the interview process you should be up to speed on who is playing well and who is not.

Thomond Munster played some great rugby under Kidney no doubt about it. Rog was in his pomp as an attacking fly half, the Toulouse game stands out.

by in large i think Kidney is close enough in terms of squad selection. I get frustrated when we lose play poorly and start the same team next game. Our midfield have been impotent for a long time, Darcy starts without fail.

Anyway lets enjoy our summer holidays and see what happens in the Autumn : )))

Looking forward to the 4 nations i have to say. Its a pleasure to watch NZ. Interested to see how the Argies acquit themselves

by Thomond Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:29 pm

dublin_dave wrote:sin even if we appointed a new manager jan 2013 i would hope that they would factor in HC form and get up to speed quickly. If you apply for a job and go through the interview process you should be up to speed on who is playing well and who is not.

Thomond Munster played some great rugby under Kidney no doubt about it. Rog was in his pomp as an attacking fly half, the Toulouse game stands out.

by in large i think Kidney is close enough in terms of squad selection. I get frustrated when we lose play poorly and start the same team next game. Our midfield have been impotent for a long time, Darcy starts without fail.

Anyway lets enjoy our summer holidays and see what happens in the Autumn : )))

Looking forward to the 4 nations i have to say. Its a pleasure to watch NZ. Interested to see how the Argies acquit themselves

I know it annoys me when people always talk about how Ireland play like Musnter. It wasn't feicing dazzling but a lot better than some of the shoite we're churning out!

by **Notch** Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:10 pm

Here's the official record of our last season;

Scotland 10-6 Ireland
France 19-12 Ireland
Ireland 22–26 France
Ireland 9-20 England
Ireland 22-10 USA
Australia 6 – 15 Ireland
Ireland 62 - 12 Russia
Ireland 36 – 6 Italy
Ireland 10 - 22 Wales
Ireland 21 – 23 Wales
Ireland 42 – 10 Italy
France 17 – 17 Ireland
Ireland 32 – 14 Scotland
England 30 – 9 Ireland
New Zealand 42 – 10 Ireland
New Zealand 22 – 19 Ireland
New Zealand 60 – 0 Ireland

I've put our wins in green, draw in blue and defeats in red. I do genuinely believe the IRFU are going to have Kidney in charge for the next seven tests (2 AI and and five in the 6N, plus one no-cap game against Fiji in Limerick). The way they view it they can plan for the future whilst Kidney is a dead man walking. I think this is a bad move; if you're going to retain Kidney, at least give him the support he needs. But what decent backs coach would sign on for one year in a struggling regime with little in the way of long-term prospects?

Anyway if we're very poor in the Autumn he might go sooner but if we beat Fiji and Argentina he'll probably see out his contract. But god he'll have to do something spectacular to keep his job longer than that.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:19 pm

Notch wrote:Here's the official record of our last season;

Scotland 10-6 Ireland
France 19-12 Ireland
Ireland 22–26 France
Ireland 9-20 England
Ireland 22-10 USA
Australia 6 – 15 Ireland
Ireland 62 - 12 Russia
Ireland 36 – 6 Italy
Ireland 10 - 22 Wales
Ireland 21 – 23 Wales
Ireland 42 – 10 Italy
France 17 – 17 Ireland
Ireland 32 – 14 Scotland
England 30 – 9 Ireland
New Zealand 42 – 10 Ireland
New Zealand 22 – 19 Ireland
New Zealand 60 – 0 Ireland

I've put our wins in green, draw in blue and defeats in red. I do genuinely believe the IRFU are going to have Kidney in charge for the next seven tests (2 AI and and five in the 6N, plus one no-cap game against Fiji in Limerick). The way they view it they can plan for the future whilst Kidney is a dead man walking. I think this is a bad move; if you're going to retain Kidney, at least give him the support he needs. But what decent backs coach would sign on for one year in a struggling regime with little in the way of long-term prospects?

Anyway if we're very poor in the Autumn he might go sooner but if we beat Fiji and Argentina he'll probably see out his contract. But god he'll have to do something spectacular to keep his job longer than that.

Sadly I can see a maximum of 4 wins and even that is hopeful,Argentina,Italy,Scotland and England are the only matches I have hope for and those last 2 are very shaky.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:28 pm

So 6 wins, 10 losses, 1 draw. Quite clearly that is not good enough.

by Feckless Rogue Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:43 pm

1 win in 11 tests against top 8 teams. We're so far off the pace. Way beyond where we should be with the players we have.

And it's not a puzzle as to why. We keep kicking away possession aimlessly or run mindlessly into contact. No wonder we can't beat teams of any quality. It's not rocket science. Our kicking tactics and defensive mindset are not adequate against these sides. The results don't lie.

And the results of our provinces don't lie either. The players we have at our disposal are better than that.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:55 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:1 win in 11 tests against top 8 teams. We're so far off the pace. Way beyond where we should be with the players we have.

And it's not a puzzle as to why. We keep kicking away possession aimlessly or run mindlessly into contact. No wonder we can't beat teams of any quality. It's not rocket science. Our kicking tactics and defensive mindset are not adequate against these sides. The results don't lie.

And the results of our provinces don't lie either. The players we have at our disposal are better than that.

The worst thing is that Kidney realised kicking away aimlessly was a problem in the first Test against NZ and made changes so hopefully it won't be as big an issue any more,however on here we've been complaining about the kicking since the 2011 6N.Kidney is a year and a half behind this board in terms of his tactics so how far is he behind the best coaches in the world.

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:02 pm

Notch wrote:You just aren't getting that it isn't about players. I disagree with some of the individual selection calls Kidney has made, many do, but the majority of his squads are close enough. I don't care if a new coach picks 13 Leinster players at first if it means we start playing rugby that makes sense. We won't get the gameplan right without a new coach- that's why I've slowly changed my mind from being pro-Kidney and defending him to wanting a new regime installed in the next year.

Childish jibes about a Munster player vs Leinster player in same position aside, I agree.

No. Your not getting it. Its about implementing a brand new gameplan with a week to prepare to a group of players, some of whom may not have even met 2/3s of the group and they are meant to go out and beat France the following week in the 6Ns.

The fans were looking for Joe Schmidt's head after about 3 games in the Rabo with Leinster because the players didn't get what he wanted them to do - and this was a team that had just won the Heineken Cup and he had them for 3 months.

There were no childish jibes about a Leinster player. There wouldn't be too much video evidence of Ian Madigan taking place kicks available that he might reckon he would trust him to start place kicking against France.

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:05 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:1 win in 11 tests against top 8 teams. We're so far off the pace. Way beyond where we should be with the players we have.

And it's not a puzzle as to why. We keep kicking away possession aimlessly or run mindlessly into contact. No wonder we can't beat teams of any quality. It's not rocket science. Our kicking tactics and defensive mindset are not adequate against these sides. The results don't lie.

And the results of our provinces don't lie either. The players we have at our disposal are better than that.

The worst thing is that Kidney realised kicking away aimlessly was a problem in the first Test against NZ and made changes so hopefully it won't be as big an issue any more,however on here we've been complaining about the kicking since the 2011 6N.Kidney is a year and a half behind this board in terms of his tactics so how far is he behind the best coaches in the world.

Kidney wasn't kicking the ball away. Very Happy

Mind you, he was cross enough (for Kidney) after the match in his interview that they were kicking it away so much.

by **Notch** Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:06 pm

Sin é wrote:No. Your not getting it. Its about implementing a brand new gameplan with a week to prepare to a group of players, some of whom may not have even met 2/3s of the group and they are meant to go out and beat France the following week in the 6Ns.

I think there should be maybe three, four changes to the squad that toured New Zealand so familiarity not an issue. And new players will be drawn from an overwhelming THREE provincial sides. At this stage, the conservative arguments are beyond parody.

Yes it will take time for the team to gel, but thats just what needs to happen.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:1 win in 11 tests against top 8 teams. We're so far off the pace. Way beyond where we should be with the players we have.

And it's not a puzzle as to why. We keep kicking away possession aimlessly or run mindlessly into contact. No wonder we can't beat teams of any quality. It's not rocket science. Our kicking tactics and defensive mindset are not adequate against these sides. The results don't lie.

And the results of our provinces don't lie either. The players we have at our disposal are better than that.

The worst thing is that Kidney realised kicking away aimlessly was a problem in the first Test against NZ and made changes so hopefully it won't be as big an issue any more,however on here we've been complaining about the kicking since the 2011 6N.Kidney is a year and a half behind this board in terms of his tactics so how far is he behind the best coaches in the world.

Kidney wasn't kicking the ball away.

Mind you, he was cross enough (for Kidney) after the match in his interview that they were kicking it away so much.

Yep it only took him a year and a half to notice it was a problem.

by Sin é Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:10 pm

Any of you listen to the Enda McNulty interview, or are you afraid to because he would have far more informed assessment of the team, coaches and sport?

by Sponsored content