Only 1 prop in entire Munster Academy

I have to say I find this really really worrying.

Academy Year 1: Ryan Murphy (flanker), Jack O'Donoghue (flanker), Jonathan Holland (flyhalf), Darren Moroney (fullback), James Rael (hooker), Brian Haugh (scrumhalf(

Academy Year 2: Shane Buckley (backrow), Duncan Casey (hooker), James Cronin (prop), Cian Bohane (centre), Phillip Donnellan (second row), Niall Scannell (hooker), Cathal O'Flaherty (flanker)

Academy Year 3: Brian Hayes (second row), Corey Hircock (centre), Ronan O'Mahony (winger)

I am really worried that in the entire Munster Academy we have just 1 prop. By contrast there are three hookers.

We have some Irish props being developed in the senior team - Cotter, Kilcoyne, Archer, Condon. But these guys are 24/25 years old. In fact Condon is 31 years old - way too late to start developing him.

I hope in time we see some of the backrows or hookers trying to start moving to prop.

Depends on their age and size. Dan Cole was playing number 8 all the way up to I think under 16s. Tom Youngs didn't convert to a hooker until his 20s and Mulipola was apparently playing 8 as recently as before the RWC (he's a 20 stone Samoan prop Tigers picked up last season) imagine him coming off the back of the scrum and running at you!

Surely the Munster academy will be able to lay their hands on some more big lads, honouring their fixtures with only one prop may be an issue.

Only one, never mind I am sure there are some young South Africans looking to become part of some sort of project. ONLY JOKING, please don't tar and feather me.

Why be a troll?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Why be a troll?

I am not trolling, I am having a laugh, come on I was saying it with my tongue firmly in my cheek after another conversation on another thread, stop being so precious and lighten up a little, if we all start to look at life as serious as you we might as well all give up now. P.S I am sorry if I upset you.

You're obviously making the comment looking for a reaction,I was just wondering why?

That's genius. "We only have one prop. Uncontested scrums in every match I'm afraid". When will the Australian and Irish test teams adopt this revolutionary tactic?

Munster usually prefers props to have some AIL experience before they choose them. Thats the best way to do it IMO. Leinster have a different system.

Munster have Botha, Du Preez, Horan, Archer, J Ryan, Cotter, Kilcoyne and Condon.

-Botha, Du Preez and Horan are the estabilshed names. Horan is past it now tbh.
-Condon is about 30 but just got his first pro contract! He was picked from the AIL.
-Archer, J Ryan, Kilcoyne and Cotter are coming through. I havn't been impressed by Archer so far but Ryan looks a good scrummager. Need to see more of the other two.

So there are plenty of inexperienced props in Munster.

Stag: I remember discussing the prop issue with an irish mate. He said something along the line of there being no contested scrums in junior rugby. Therefore the coaches put their tallest boys on so they had in effect more second row or loose forwards on the field. The only problem I can see is you don't regularly see successful prop who are very tall.

Is it true about the junior rugby scrum thing ?

In addition to my previous post. Look on the bright side, you're producing a lot of very good loose forwards and seconds rows !!

When you say junior, what age are you talking about? In secondary school, all scrums are contested (up north anyway).

Im not sure to be honest. I was at a wedding and had a few beers. One thing I do know is he's from near Dublin. Secondary with you 12 years and up yeah? Wonder if anybody else can shed any light on it. He may be talking horlicks?

Yeah for 11/12 years plus, the scrums are contested. We don't lift in the line outs until about 15/16 though. This is for schools in Northern Ireland though, I have no idea if it is the same down south. The schools I have played against down south, the scrums were contested too though.

Ahh right. How come you lot are so good in the lineouts then. Maybe its just a welsh thing that makes us poo at them.Genetic or something. Where are stag or thomond when you need them

Mind you Rory, with juniors over here they have uncontested lineouts to a certain age then its contested from 14 years I think.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah for 11/12 years plus, the scrums are contested. We don't lift in the line outs until about 15/16 though. This is for schools in Northern Ireland though, I have no idea if it is the same down south. The schools I have played against down south, the scrums were contested too though.

As a contrast, when I was a kid in England we started scrummaging in under-9s (3 man scrums). I believe we got second rows in under11s and back-rows in U13s. Line-outs were uncontested to under11s (I think) and lifting came into it in under-15s, but that's now changed to under-16s. Not sure how scrums are done for kids now though.

I would be very worried if I were you Stag. 1 prop seems quite ridiculous. I know they can obviously supplement the academy team with non-academy players, but if Munster have only been able to identify 1 prop who might make it to a decent standard, then that would be very worrying indeed.

This is probably what they meant. It is a universal law. Not just in Ireland

Otherwise he was probably extracting the wee wee.

U19 scrum law

20.9 (j)
Maximum 1.5 metres push. A team in a scrum must not push the scrum more than 1.5 metres towards their opponents’ goal line.
Sanction: Free Kick

Jennifer just checked and its the same here. Scrums introduced at 9 and passive until 12 etc

Scrums become a contest of 1.5m at U-13, with 8 men.It's 3 at U9/U10 and 5 from U11 to U12 with no push. You get pinged if you push more than that, a bit annoying as some refs will tell you hold the push others won't and you give away a free kick. Lifiting in lineouts are introduced at U-16.

U19 Law Variations curtail the scrum worldwide.

It is exact same in Italy as in Ireland as in South Africa as in New Zealand.

I've seen Irish pundits use that as an excuse before but I think we just need an attitude adjustment.

Robbo - yea I'm quite worried by it. Its fine to have some young lads like Cotter, Ryan, Kilcoyne and Archer in the senior team but they are all around 24 years old. We need to see signs that props are being devloped by design. Where is Munsters Dan Cole or Cian Healy or Alex Cobisiero.

The difference between Ireland and the likes of Italy scrum wise is the technique. We learn it later and also place less emphasis on it.

Exactly Thomond. I was a big lanky so and so as a teenager and played second row. We rarely ever did scrum training. However we used to do lineout after lineout after lineout.

Were you a successful team Stag? Teams scrumamge a lot but they're learning the wrong things. They're easily correctable and you learn a lot from a session or tow with a seasoned or professional prop. Dave Ryan has been signed for Zebre this year and I think he will have come on a lot from his time with Lazio. (He might have been capped for the Us though)

Relatively successful. I played for Crescent College at school and Garryowen for my club. Both were quite successful.

I'd imagine Ryan does a lot of work with your team. I've a good pal who is with your club too he says Dave Ryan is quite involved.

He is alright gave 3 scrum sessions with guys ranging from U-15 to U-19. They learned a lot, heck I learned a lot when I watched it!

I found the same as part of a referee training programme we had some very good scrum coaches going over it with us.

What is each position trying to do. Channel 1, Channel 2 balls. The La Fléche technique. How the ball is likely to be played in differnet areas of the pitch.

Very interesting and made me realised there is a lot more to scrums than pushing.

red_stag wrote:U19 Law Variations curtail the scrum worldwide.

It is exact same in Italy as in Ireland as in South Africa as in New Zealand.

I've seen Irish pundits use that as an excuse before but I think we just need an attitude adjustment.

Robbo - yea I'm quite worried by it. Its fine to have some young lads like Cotter, Ryan, Kilcoyne and Archer in the senior team but they are all around 24 years old. We need to see signs that props are being devloped by design. Where is Munsters Dan Cole or Cian Healy or Alex Cobisiero.

Maybe Munster are adopting a wait and see approach. They'll wait and see how the props are doing at AIL level before taking them into the academy. For props, thats the best solution I think because of the way things are set up here.

Ulster appear to be having all the up and comers so props will be got from there.

drsambo1928 wrote:Ulster appear to be having all the up and comers so props will be got from there.

Leinster are also producing props. Leinster have 5 props in their academy includind martin moore and tadhg furlong who are very promising TH's.We also have jack mcgrath and jamie hagan who are already proven at pro 12 level.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

drsambo1928 wrote:Ulster appear to be having all the up and comers so props will be got from there.

Leinster are also producing props. Leinster have 5 props in their academy includind martin moore and tadhg furlong who are very promising TH's.We also have jack mcgrath and jamie hagan who are already proven at pro 12 level.

Jack McGrath is not "proven at Pro 12 level".

His ONLY ever appearance was when he came on as a sub for 11 minutes against the Dragons

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

drsambo1928 wrote:Ulster appear to be having all the up and comers so props will be got from there.

Leinster are also producing props. Leinster have 5 props in their academy includind martin moore and tadhg furlong who are very promising TH's.We also have jack mcgrath and jamie hagan who are already proven at pro 12 level.

Is Jamie Hagan from Leinster? I thought Tadhg Furlong was from Connacht. I'm probably wrong though. When I say Ulster I mean that Ulster will have the better props in a few years time. They have Macklin at the moment who seems alright, mind you i'm not sure of his age.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

drsambo1928 wrote:Ulster appear to be having all the up and comers so props will be got from there.

Leinster are also producing props. Leinster have 5 props in their academy includind martin moore and tadhg furlong who are very promising TH's.We also have jack mcgrath and jamie hagan who are already proven at pro 12 level.

Jack McGrath is not "proven at Pro 12 level".

His ONLY ever appearance was when he came on as a sub for 11 minutes against the Dragons

Jack mcgrath has made 13 appearances for leinster last season including an appearance in the pro 12 final and has performed very well

Apologies I must have my info wrong.

Feckit I was looking at Luke McGrath.

My sincere apologies all.

red_stag wrote:Apologies I must have my info wrong.

Feckit I was looking at Luke McGrath.

My sincere apologies all.

No need for the apology

Grr smug Leinsterfans grr

I hate being wrong!!

I remember it happened once in 1994 and I was livid then as well.

I'd still say Stags right he's not yet proven at Pro 12 level.He looks a good prospect but we'll have to see him start a few games before we can say for sure.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

red_stag wrote:Apologies I must have my info wrong.

Feckit I was looking at Luke McGrath.

My sincere apologies all.

No need for the apology

Luke McGrath is one for the future no doubt. Even though he went to a devilish school, I think he will be good in the future. It must also be noted that the Ulster schools are better then any Munster or Leinster schools. Thus I feel Ulster will have the better players and ths better props.

red_stag wrote:Grr smug Leinsterfans grr

I hate being wrong!!

I remember it happened once in 1994 and I was livid then as well.

Im not smug at all it was an easy mistake to make. I have made a similiar mistake when Ulster fans talk about luke marshall. I keep getting him confused with Ian marshal

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I'd still say Stags right he's not yet proven at Pro 12 level.He looks a good prospect but we'll have to see him start a few games before we can say for sure.

Maybe your right. But he has played well whenever he gets his game.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I'd still say Stags right he's not yet proven at Pro 12 level.He looks a good prospect but we'll have to see him start a few games before we can say for sure.

Maybe your right. But he has played well whenever he gets his game.

Oh yeah I have high hopes for him and he's till only a toddler in propping terms so hopefully he can get more gametime this year.He has 2 top quality players in front of him but with Healy getting rested a lot for the international teams benefit he should see a fair amount of action this year.

edit:yikes just read the thread title again,sorry about the derail

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I'd still say Stags right he's not yet proven at Pro 12 level.He looks a good prospect but we'll have to see him start a few games before we can say for sure.

Maybe your right. But he has played well whenever he gets his game.

Oh yeah I have high hopes for him and he's till only a toddler in propping terms so hopefully he can get more gametime this year.He has 2 top quality players in front of him but with Healy getting rested a lot for the international teams benefit he should see a fair amount of action this year.

Ye we will get to see a lot more of him this year and also this could be vdm's last year at leinster so he could be our 2nd choice LH in 2 years time

What a signing Van Der Merwe was.But it's time for Some Irish blood to prosper.

I have to say I don't buy into this business of props always coming through as late developers.

It isn't an issue for Joe Marler, Alex Cobisiero, Dan Cole, Cian Healy, Rhodri Jones, Owen Franks, Tony Woodcock, Coenie Oosthuizen, Martin Castrogiovanni, Nicolas Mas, Svlvain Marconnet.

I could go on but these guys were all getting into the international scene aged 19-22.

McGrath is turning 23 in October. He is young but he isn't that young.

red_stag wrote:I have to say I don't buy into this business of props always coming through as late developers.

It isn't an issue for Joe Marler, Alex Cobisiero, Dan Cole, Cian Healy, Rhodri Jones, Owen Franks, Tony Woodcock, Coenie Oosthuizen, Martin Castrogiovanni, Nicolas Mas, Svlvain Marconnet.

I could go on but these guys were all getting into the international scene aged 19-22.

McGrath is turning 23 in October. He is young but he isn't that young.

Healy was exposed to Heineken cup level early on while Jack McGrath wasn't. Maybe aswell, the props listed are just better than McGrath.

DrSambo,

They are two brilliant points. It ties in very nicely with the title of the thread.

Healy was exposed to Heineken Cup level early on as you say and the world didnt end. He did as well as any young player would do and had ups and had downs. He turned out to be a very good player and was winning a Heineken Cup at age 21. He is 24 now and has 33 caps to his name.

I'd like to see more of that rather than just having Wian du Preez and van der Merwe and Nathan White blocking the way.

red_stag wrote:I have to say I don't buy into this business of props always coming through as late developers.

It isn't an issue for Joe Marler, Alex Cobisiero, Dan Cole, Cian Healy, Rhodri Jones, Owen Franks, Tony Woodcock, Coenie Oosthuizen, Martin Castrogiovanni, Nicolas Mas, Svlvain Marconnet.

I could go on but these guys were all getting into the international scene aged 19-22.

McGrath is turning 23 in October. He is young but he isn't that young.

It definitely isn't a hard and fast rule but it's not unusual to see front 5 forwards only breaking through in their late 20's,Ross and Ryan are both reent examples with Ireland.The really top class players make it earlier but some very good international forwards are late developers.

red_stag wrote:DrSambo,

They are two brilliant points. It ties in very nicely with the title of the thread.

Healy was exposed to Heineken Cup level early on as you say and the world didnt end. He did as well as any young player would do and had ups and had downs. He turned out to be a very good player and was winning a Heineken Cup at age 21. He is 24 now and has 33 caps to his name.

I'd like to see more of that rather than just having Wian du Preez and van der Merwe and Nathan White blocking the way.

Nathan white is gone and vdm is in his last season at leinster, so we should start seeing the likes of mcgrath, moore and furlong all getting a lot of gametime.

I would argue that was down to poor development Asoreleftshoulder.

Donnacha Ryan did not see gametime due to Paul O'Connell, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha O'Callaghan.

Leinster had Stan Wright, CJ van der Linde, Ollie le Roux, Will Green and Van der Merwe. Their prop development was apalling. Munster clutched to Horan and Hayes for too long and Ulster have gone from one foreign tighthead (Botha) to another (Afoa) meaning like Leinster it will be about 7 years before they have an Irish tight head.

I maintain that that is a crutch we as a country have hidden behind for far too long. Tight five forwards are not natural late bloomers. They issue is that we are developing them badly.

We can almost make an entire pack of South Africa forwards plying their trade in Ireland.

Van der Merwe, Wian du Preez, BJ Botha, Richardt Strauss, Johann Muller, Quinn Roux, Robbie Diack, CJ Stander, Ethienne Reynecke, Robb Herring.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

red_stag wrote:DrSambo,

They are two brilliant points. It ties in very nicely with the title of the thread.

Healy was exposed to Heineken Cup level early on as you say and the world didnt end. He did as well as any young player would do and had ups and had downs. He turned out to be a very good player and was winning a Heineken Cup at age 21. He is 24 now and has 33 caps to his name.

I'd like to see more of that rather than just having Wian du Preez and van der Merwe and Nathan White blocking the way.

Nathan white is gone and vdm is in his last season at leinster, so we should start seeing the likes of mcgrath, moore and furlong all getting a lot of gametime.

Nathan White is gone to Connacht to join another foreign tightead (Rodney Ah You)

I do hope we see more of Furlong. I thought he looked a good player.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

red_stag wrote:DrSambo,

They are two brilliant points. It ties in very nicely with the title of the thread.

Healy was exposed to Heineken Cup level early on as you say and the world didnt end. He did as well as any young player would do and had ups and had downs. He turned out to be a very good player and was winning a Heineken Cup at age 21. He is 24 now and has 33 caps to his name.

I'd like to see more of that rather than just having Wian du Preez and van der Merwe and Nathan White blocking the way.

Nathan white is gone and vdm is in his last season at leinster, so we should start seeing the likes of mcgrath, moore and furlong all getting a lot of gametime.

Nathan White is gone to Connacht to join another foreign tightead (Rodney Ah You)

I do hope we see more of Furlong. I thought he looked a good player.

As did his LH partner des merrey but he didn't get an academy contract for some reason. I was dissapointed about that.