Six Players England should give a chance in the Autumn

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1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

2. S.Armitage

Week in, week out this season for Toulon, Armitage has been consistently outstanding, both in defence and attack. He was voted the best player in the Top 14 this season and made the headlines for all the right reasons (unlike his brother). His ball carrying, scavenging and work-rate has been very impressive and he deserves a chance to show how much he has improved. This may mean shifting Robshaw over to 6, however the Robshaw/Armitage partnership reminds me of the Hill/Back partnership that served us so well in 2003.

3. D.Cipriani

One thing was obvious on our tour to South Africa, Farrell isn't ready to run an international backline, whilst Flood although competent at the basics at 10, isn't a world beater. Cipriani has the potential to bring out the best in the players around him, his kicking game, passing and game management is extremely strong, although he remains suspect in defence, which Lancaster may frown upon. Young Freddie Burns and George Ford's development, should also be closely monitored. Burn's impressed last season and Ford has been labelled as a potential superstar for a while now, this season could be his breakthrough season.

4. Billy Twelvetrees

This is a massive season for Twelvetrees. Barritt has been solid in the 12 jersey for England, however one dimensional in attack, with a weak passing and kicking game. Tuilagi impressed at 12 with his ball carrying, but it a more comfortable at 13 and doesn't quite yet possess a passing game. Twelvetrees could potentially be as good as Greenwood, he has an impressive passing game, an eye for the gap and the killer pass. His defence may need a bit of work, but he could be a top player and make that 12 jersey his own by the end of 2013

5. Miles Benjamin

Benjamin has always impressed me, he's extremely quick and very powerful, he's also weighs in over 16stone and is quite a physical specimen. This upcoming season he has moved to Leicester, and if he plays well for the Tigers, I expect international recognition to follow. I heard lots of clubs were interested in signing him, including Bath and i'm gutted he chose the Tigers as I reckon he will be a prolific try scorer for both club and country.

6. Jamie George

Despite Tom Youngs being selected ahead of him to go on tour with England to South Africa, I believe George could be the best young English hooker around. He is currently being tutored by two of South Africa's finest hookers in John Smit and Schalk Britz and is rated very highly at Safacens. His leadership has impressed, his lineout is top notch, scrummaging impressive and work-rate around the field also commended. He's destined for big things and could oust Hartley as the first choice hooker for England, by the end of 2013.

Thoughts?

Isn't it great for England supporters to actually be discussing positions of real strength? We have good choices and I truly believe gives options for different combinations against different teams. And, even better, is some of these guys are real leader types, not exactly an England strength in the recent past. Strong leaders are the difference between winning and losing.

Regarding Wood, I have to confess I am a big fan.
But I am a Saints guy, so I see him a lot, and it is - slightly - possible I am biased. My concern is about his recent injury history. It is very troubling to me. I know the Saints medical team and they are being fairly conservative with him. I believe if he truly builds the strength and mobility in the injured areas, he can be back at full tilt. BUt he has missed a lot of Rugby and it takes a while to knock off the rust. Even if fully recovered, he is probably no more than 50/50 for the AIs, but a good bet for the 6N. I believe a healthy Wood on his game can be a real game changer.

"It's just a shame we can't find one who is not injured or fit enough to last a full 80 mins"

Firstly, the Morgan fitness thing is overblown. Yes, he needs to improve his fitness and up his workrate, but let's not pretend that he is some useless fat slob who's unfit to grace a rugby field: he had a very real impact in the 6 nations...in fact, he was a revalation. Granted, his progress arguably stalled on the recent tour, but let's not forget that South Africa are the most physical side in the world: winning collisions is what they do! It's hardly surprising that Morgan occasionally struggled to make an impact as often as he would have liked. And even so, he showed that he can make yards in a test environment against the very best (albeit not as frequently as any of us would have hoped). This can and will be a positive experience for him: he will go away and improve.

Secondly, everyone on this board has spoken of the depth of backrow options. With this in mind, it is more than likely that we will find ourselves with a proven test-class player on the bench in the AI's. As such, why wouldn't we look to proactively use this player from the bench? Why can't we have a plan for, say, Morgan to blast away for 60 mins, and then, say, Haskell to come on and impose his physicality on the final 20? Surely this could be a genuine strength?

When we play the Boks this autumn i damned well want to see.....

1Corbs
2Youngs
3Cole
4Garvey
5 Attwood
6. johnson
7.haskell
8.morgan

9. waldrom
10.robshaw
11.wood
12.crane
13.s.armitage
14.croft
15. lawes

I'd love to see that team take to the field!

Waldrom at 9, Robshaw at 10 would never see the ball.

Steffon Armitage does have a body double in Basteraud. He could fill in at 13.

Adam wrote:"It's just a shame we can't find one who is not injured or fit enough to last a full 80 mins"

Firstly, the Morgan fitness thing is overblown. Yes, he needs to improve his fitness and up his workrate, but let's not pretend that he is some useless fat slob who's unfit to grace a rugby field: he had a very real impact in the 6 nations...in fact, he was a revalation. Granted, his progress arguably stalled on the recent tour, but let's not forget that South Africa are the most physical side in the world: winning collisions is what they do! It's hardly surprising that Morgan occasionally struggled to make an impact as often as he would have liked. And even so, he showed that he can make yards in a test environment against the very best (albeit not as frequently as any of us would have hoped). This can and will be a positive experience for him: he will go away and improve.

Secondly, everyone on this board has spoken of the depth of backrow options. With this in mind, it is more than likely that we will find ourselves with a proven test-class player on the bench in the AI's. As such, why wouldn't we look to proactively use this player from the bench? Why can't we have a plan for, say, Morgan to blast away for 60 mins, and then, say, Haskell to come on and impose his physicality on the final 20? Surely this could be a genuine strength?

Morgan in the 6N had short but very effective bursts of excellent ball carrying but still disappeared for 10 mins at a time and had no real impact to the game in other aspects apart from carrying. But in those bursts he showed real talent that people got excited about but he does need to have greater prominence throughout the game to become a good test 8 not a potentially good one. He needs to show a good run of form for Glaws to reclaim the position for me. However would still be happy with Waldrom if he played as he did in the 3rd test against SA, or maybe even Haskell? People regularly disregard him because of his lack of rugby brain but he has all the attributes for the position and will bring a more rounded game than Morgan or Waldrom. Given a few games in the position he could work on the nuances of the position like controlling the ball at the scrum etc. and we could have a really good 8 in Haskell? Or am I delusional? But would accept him on the bench as he is perfect there really can cover all positions and brings extra dynamism to the team.

Suppose it all depends where 'The Hask' (TM) is going to play at Wasps.

The Hask (TM) will probably play wherever is required though mainly at 6 if everyone is fit. The largely underrated Jonathon Poff will play at 7 and Johnson the Bok number 8 will play in, well 8. Leaves only one spot open. Should Poff or Johnson get injured then it's likely Haskell would shift to 7 or 8 and one of Jones or Launchbury would come into the backrow at 6. Vunipola is likely to mainly be a bench option at this stage as he too lacks the stamina for a full 80 mins.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Robshaw – his work rate is not in question, and he’s certainly developed well as a test player. But has he got the skills required of a top class no 7? More so than Wood? As a 6 Croft has more class, as a 7 I’d like England to have a player with more pace and greater technical skills at the tackle/breakdown/ruck

I used to think the exact same thing about Robshaw, but his performaces in the two tests against the Boks completely silenced me. His fetching work was sublime.

Manu's boxing coach, I do agree that 'The Hask' gets a raw deal from fans, probably largely due to his public persona as a bit of a tool and the perception that his impact on games is not always what it should be given his sheer size.

But I also feel that he's not a number 8 and that he's often misunderstood as a player.

Yes, he carries - and he's not bad at it - but it's never been the strongest area of his game, and yet it's the area of his game for which he is most frequently criticised.

I used to play with a guy who played with and against Haskell at school all the way up through the age groups. He said he was by far the best player he's faced. I asked him what he was like to play against, and he said that, actually, it wasn't as if he'd rip entire teams to shreds with solo tries or anything flashy like that, but what set him apart was his 'duracell bunny' workrate and intensity: popping up everywhere, making a nuicance of himself, hitting tackle after tackle and generally just being in your face wherever you went.

So when people talk about Haskell as an 8 I can't help but think that this is based purely on his physical size rather than his playing attributes. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's gone well at 7 for England, moreso than 6 or 8.

What I find strange is that people see Robshaw as an 'honest grafter' on the openside, and yet Haskell - who actually plays a very similar game from the 7 position - still gets type-cast as a narcissistic show pony. The reality is that Haskell is - in fact - a huge grafter and probably edges Robshaw both in terms of pure physicality and as a carrier (though admittedly there isn't much in it in either department given the way Robshaw's game's come on in the last couple of seasons, and there is also the leadership factor to consider). Also, without sounding overly gay, I find it paradoxical that people look at Haskell's physique and think 'narcissistic show pony' when, in actual fact, he wouldn't have that physique without working incredibly hard in all aspects of training - something that is backed-up by all the coaches he's played under.

.....Haskell: the great misunderstood?

I agree to an extent Adam, and think Haskell does get a raw deal from the fans. I think a lot of it might be to do with his general demeanor, more than his rugby playing. He's a very very decent 6, and a reasonable 7. I thought in last year's six naitons he was fantastic, and appeared to have stepped his game up even more. I think Robshaw's overtaken him for the 7 shirt though, because Robshaw has really worked on his fetching game. I rate Haskell highly, and think he's a great bench option to cover 6, 7 or 8.

Also, without sounding overly gay, I find it paradoxical that people look at Haskell's physique and think 'narcissistic show pony' when, in actual fact, he wouldn't have that physique without working incredibly hard in all aspects of training - something that is backed-up by all the coaches he's played under.

.....Haskell: the great misunderstood?.
Adam

Adam wrote:Manu's boxing coach, I do agree that 'The Hask' gets a raw deal from fans, probably largely due to his public persona as a bit of a tool and the perception that his impact on games is not always what it should be given his sheer size.

But I also feel that he's not a number 8 and that he's often misunderstood as a player.

Yes, he carries - and he's not bad at it - but it's never been the strongest area of his game, and yet it's the area of his game for which he is most frequently criticised.

I used to play with a guy who played with and against Haskell at school all the way up through the age groups. He said he was by far the best player he's faced. I asked him what he was like to play against, and he said that, actually, it wasn't as if he'd rip entire teams to shreds with solo tries or anything flashy like that, but what set him apart was his 'duracell bunny' workrate and intensity: popping up everywhere, making a nuicance of himself, hitting tackle after tackle and generally just being in your face wherever you went.

So when people talk about Haskell as an 8 I can't help but think that this is based purely on his physical size rather than his playing attributes. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's gone well at 7 for England, moreso than 6 or 8.

What I find strange is that people see Robshaw as an 'honest grafter' on the openside, and yet Haskell - who actually plays a very similar game from the 7 position - still gets type-cast as a narcissistic show pony. The reality is that Haskell is - in fact - a huge grafter and probably edges Robshaw both in terms of pure physicality and as a carrier (though admittedly there isn't much in it in either department given the way Robshaw's game's come on in the last couple of seasons, and there is also the leadership factor to consider). Also, without sounding overly gay, I find it paradoxical that people look at Haskell's physique and think 'narcissistic show pony' when, in actual fact, he wouldn't have that physique without working incredibly hard in all aspects of training - something that is backed-up by all the coaches he's played under.

.....Haskell: the great misunderstood?

Haskell isnt a traditional ball carrying no8 like Morgan or Waldrom bouncing off players and he isnt as effective but he still does a good job, he had a barnstorming run against Aus in 09 that comes to mind. I think him at 8 with robshaw and croft would bring a really strong quick back row capable of coping with the physicality of the Boks and with the quick game of NZ and AUS especially in the breakdown as both Haskell and Robshaw are capable 7's at test level.

Triangulation wrote:Also, without sounding overly gay, I find it paradoxical that people look at Haskell's physique and think 'narcissistic show pony' when, in actual fact, he wouldn't have that physique without working incredibly hard in all aspects of training - something that is backed-up by all the coaches he's played under.

.....Haskell: the great misunderstood?.
Adam

And more to the point its people looking at his physique that youd have to question....

With him theres two things.
firstly he came into pro rugby with a reputation for being a berk going back to some unsavoury incidents in his youth. Theres a poster on here who claims to know a girl that came a cropper from him, and rates him as one of the biggest twerps in Britain (like above most welshmen even).
In general his judgement and character have always been in question, the whole brand Haskell thing didnt help ...not really his fault but it didnt endear him to fans or "old school" types either. Beyond that hes always been hot on his media profile, never plays well with rugby fans who are all stuck in the mud conservative bitter (in both senses) drinkers. Never quite in the Henson/Cipriani mould but sets himself up nicely to be derided for something thats really a non issue when it comes down to it. But we like our players to do their talking on the pitch, unlike the French who actively encourage them to take part in gay porn...each to their own I guess.
The way he left Wasps added to this as well. LOL did his best to make him stay and as with Cipriani got made a fool off and didnt hide that he thought Haskell had made a mistake. It adds to the impression, right or wrong, that hes a guy who thinks hes bigger than the team. Very unfair, hes no Billy Twelvetrees (scum)
As a player he came in with a big fanfare, he was supposed to represent the modern backrow...big but mobile and fit as a South African drug cheat. Again fatal error, never come in with a big repuation. Its fine if youre injured or unavailable due to playing in France, but the minute someones said you are good thats it the vultures are out. Nice physique? Gym monkey ...show muscle not real strength, in my day we did out weightlifting at the bar never did me any harm etc. Really he represented something that people didnt want to believe in, shoving heavy things for fun can be more benficial than being bullied by your pe teacher and made to eat mud in the rain 24/7. Modern trainning methods are about more than just static lifts of big weights, gym work is complex and works the full range of fitness and strength including balance and flexibility in ways you simply cant do on a rugby field. But people dont want to hear that, they want to hear " gym = weights=pretty players + injuries ". Now of course we are all busy applauding Wales for their fitness levels and ability to almost win games. But Haskell is a gym monkey.
He is a bit dim. or at least comes across that way. I understand he has a high level of education but you wonder if he wasnt born into money if he wouldve ended up being turned down for jobs at Netto's. On the pitch as well as off it, his judgement has been dubious. Hes made quite a few errors over the years in an England shirt, and often been described by the pundits as brainless (well I say the pundits, obviously I mean Brian Moore), and generally not showed a real "rugby brain".
It really took him a long time to start living up to the hype, only in 2010 did Moore start acknowledging that he was finally performing as everyone had expected him to. A lot of years of "Haskell...again? Oh well" selections. Now hes matured as a player and starting to turn up for England he is winning people over.
As an 8 though...still question marks as highlighted when used there in the world cup. Hes has all the aspects required, except a knowledge of that position and the specialised skills at the base of the scrum. It can be developed. England though seem to want more of a lump and contact ball carrier there at the moment (obviously why Lancaster retired Easter early...hmmm), with the more mobile players on the flanks. Until hes playing there regularly at club level and proves he has what it takes I cant see him as anything more than a cover option in a 4 man unit. He said himself not so long back that he saw his international future at 7.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Also, without sounding overly gay, I find it paradoxical that people look at Haskell's physique and think 'narcissistic show pony' when, in actual fact, he wouldn't have that physique without working incredibly hard in all aspects of training - something that is backed-up by all the coaches he's played under.

.....Haskell: the great misunderstood?.
Adam

And more to the point its people looking at his physique that youd have to question....

With him theres two things.
firstly he came into pro rugby with a reputation for being a berk going back to some unsavoury incidents in his youth. Theres a poster on here who claims to know a girl that came a cropper from him, and rates him as one of the biggest twerps in Britain (like above most welshmen even).
In general his judgement and character have always been in question, the whole brand Haskell thing didnt help ...not really his fault but it didnt endear him to fans or "old school" types either. Beyond that hes always been hot on his media profile, never plays well with rugby fans who are all stuck in the mud conservative bitter (in both senses) drinkers. Never quite in the Henson/Cipriani mould but sets himself up nicely to be derided for something thats really a non issue when it comes down to it. But we like our players to do their talking on the pitch, unlike the French who actively encourage them to take part in gay porn...each to their own I guess.
The way he left Wasps added to this as well. LOL did his best to make him stay and as with Cipriani got made a fool off and didnt hide that he thought Haskell had made a mistake. It adds to the impression, right or wrong, that hes a guy who thinks hes bigger than the team. Very unfair, hes no Billy Twelvetrees (scum)
As a player he came in with a big fanfare, he was supposed to represent the modern backrow...big but mobile and fit as a South African drug cheat. Again fatal error, never come in with a big repuation. Its fine if youre injured or unavailable due to playing in France, but the minute someones said you are good thats it the vultures are out. Nice physique? Gym monkey ...show muscle not real strength, in my day we did out weightlifting at the bar never did me any harm etc. Really he represented something that people didnt want to believe in, shoving heavy things for fun can be more benficial than being bullied by your pe teacher and made to eat mud in the rain 24/7. Modern trainning methods are about more than just static lifts of big weights, gym work is complex and works the full range of fitness and strength including balance and flexibility in ways you simply cant do on a rugby field. But people dont want to hear that, they want to hear " gym = weights=pretty players + injuries ". Now of course we are all busy applauding Wales for their fitness levels and ability to almost win games. But Haskell is a gym monkey.
He is a bit dim. or at least comes across that way. I understand he has a high level of education but you wonder if he wasnt born into money if he wouldve ended up being turned down for jobs at Netto's. On the pitch as well as off it, his judgement has been dubious. Hes made quite a few errors over the years in an England shirt, and often been described by the pundits as brainless (well I say the pundits, obviously I mean Brian Moore), and generally not showed a real "rugby brain".
It really took him a long time to start living up to the hype, only in 2010 did Moore start acknowledging that he was finally performing as everyone had expected him to. A lot of years of "Haskell...again? Oh well" selections. Now hes matured as a player and starting to turn up for England he is winning people over.
As an 8 though...still question marks as highlighted when used there in the world cup. Hes has all the aspects required, except a knowledge of that position and the specialised skills at the base of the scrum. It can be developed. England though seem to want more of a lump and contact ball carrier there at the moment (obviously why Lancaster retired Easter early...hmmm), with the more mobile players on the flanks. Until hes playing there regularly at club level and proves he has what it takes I cant see him as anything more than a cover option in a 4 man unit. He said himself not so long back that he saw his international future at 7.

Pete take a bow that is the post of the day!!

I agree with everything both you and Adam have noted. My only point would be it doesn't matter where Hask plays aslong as he has the right balance around him. It's no coincidence that he's played his best rugby alongside unglamorous players like Wood and now Robshaw, these guys allow him to be the duracell bunny/Rambo/captain America player that we want. I have no issue with him at 6,7 or 8 as he will adapt to any position. What he must get is a good run of games and a chance to settle.

If Haskell just shut his cake hole and got on with the job he'd be respected like most players. I think he is gong to be the fulcrum of the back row for some time.
However he is a publicity seeking narcissist knobber who think she is a lot funnier than he really is, loves the sound of his own voice and doesn't know when to shut up. In addition he has the judgment of a 2nd rate clown.
The forward who broke the mould....all one can say is thank god they broke it so we don't ever have another one.

I do find it amusing when some people on these forums seem to think they have a clear perspective of what a person is like despite actually knowing very little about them (if anything) and having never met the person in real life. Yet of course they are in the best position to make such judgement calls and can almost describe the person to a tee. And still say that these people are the ones with the judgement of a "2nd rate clown". How very interesting.

Haskell actually seems to be very well respected by his team mates (and he has been in many different teams now across the globe) who clearly have a much better judgement than anyone else on here about his personality and how he conducts himself as a person. I think when he plays for the Wasps this season he is going to really nail down his starting position for England. At either 6 or 7, not 8.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I do find it amusing when some people on these forums seem to think they have a clear perspective of what a person is like despite actually knowing very little about them (if anything) and having never met the person in real life. Yet of course they are in the best position to make such judgement calls and can almost describe the person to a tee. And still say that these people are the ones with the judgement of a "2nd rate clown". How very interesting.

Haskell actually seems to be very well respected by his team mates (and he has been in many different teams now across the globe) who clearly have a much better judgement than anyone else on here about his personality and how he conducts himself as a person. I think when he plays for the Wasps this season he is going to really nail down his starting position for England. At either 6 or 7, not 8.

You don't have to have met someone to know he is a 2nd rate clown. Know what I mean Rory.

I'm sure you know best.

In your case I most definitely do. Quite the keyboard warrior aren't you always looking for a bundle. Really rather childish.

The fact is a man is judged by his actions which is why Haskell has a bad rep; I did not invent the concept that he is a clown and if you did some research you might not be so naive...but your post was about me not Haskell and you are rather transparent in your willingness to lock horns with people on here.

In fact you two are similarly unguarded and willing to gob off without thinking about what comes out of your mouth/keyboard.

Like i said by PM which you have clearly forgotten, go and find your fights elsewhere I am not interested.

Keyboard warrior? I'm not the one bitching about people I don't know anything about mate. If you met the guy in person, I am sure you wouldn't be saying any of this. You might even find that your assumptions about the guy are completely wrong too, and that judging a person's character based on what you hear in the media is a bit silly. Again, you make assumptions I don't know anything about Haskell despite the fact I have been following his career from the start. I'm not looking for a fight either, just making a point. Which I am just as entitled to make as you sir.

You love to make assumptions Rory and frankly having seen your postings what you think is silly is completely inconsequential. My judgement is based on years of knowing what i have seen read and heard. I 'assume' you hav ebeen follwoing his career in the same media and if you haven't made the same conclusions as i have then that is fine, its called opinion, it surprises me very little that you think he is so great being a young man who frankly loves a bit of strife.

1. he courts publicity and is narcissitic- fact
2. his behaviour at RWC 2011 was disgraceful an lacked judgment - fact
3. His various videos suggest to me he is a class 1 toolkit - now that may appear subjective to you but again I really don't care

Now take your high horse of the high ground and go and find your daily battle somewhere else there's a good lad. Feel free to have the last word i know you will be gagging to do so!

So in reality, your opinions are based on three things about Haskell. His own personal website (which I find more amusing, than anything else) his actions regarding the hotel incident (which although I don't agree with at all and realise it was pretty disgusting, I don't call for his head and I realise people make mistakes, not to mention the fact it may have been totally blown out of proportion) and his videos, where your already perceived opinion of the guy obviously plays a part. I think there may be people better placed to make judgement calls than yourself, like those who actually engage with him in real life. In those videos you have watched, you might also note that he seems to get along just fine with plenty of people (his conditioning training outside of the England camp with a cross fit gym, his many videos involving his team mates, and his "joke" videos with a few other people) who may have a better view of his personality than people on internet forums.

You seem to think I am simply picking a fight here, actually I am making a point, and sticking up for Haskell here. Although, I don't think that you should be so arrogant to think you know certain people when in reality you actually know nothing at all. You might think you do, and you can claim that you do until the cows come home, but you really don't. This isn't me trying to get the last word in or anything either, this will be my last post. I am just pointing out that you might not actually know much about the guy at all. The guy has his flaws and makes mistakes just like anyone else in the world but the difference for him is that the media are quick to pick up on it.

No Rory in reality my opinions are based on tonnes of information i have read and life i have experienced. Where have i claimed I KNOW him? Specify where? I haven't, don't and don't wish to - i know that. Haskell has a rep as a clown who fit perfectly into RWC 2011 Jonner's Circus troupe. My point was that if he cut the BS he would be respected but he can't help himself because he loves himself.

Look this is the same bored argument you used in your PM tantrum the other day, i don't know the guy blah blah like i don't know you or what you have been through blah blah. i don't know what i am talking about but of course you do. For someone so young you are an authority on an awful lot and are really quite contrary.

By a man's works you know him and I have my opinion, to which I am entitled. it also gives me an idea about you too. You have yours and are welcome to it, i have not challenged it once.

i have opinions on all sorts of things i don't know personally as do you. Yours about Haskell are strangely hypocritical yet you identify with him - i wonder why?!! Mine are that he is a prize tulip and i have met many like him and in rugby they stand out like a big red plum because they are not tolerated.

mowgli wrote:No Rory in reality my opinions are based on tonnes of information i have read and life i have experienced. Where have i claimed I KNOW him? Specify where? I haven't, don't and don't wish to - i know that. Haskell has a rep as a clown who fit perfectly into RWC 2011 Jonner's Circus troupe. My point was that if he cut the BS he would be respected but he can't help himself because he loves himself.

Look this is the same bored argument you used in your PM tantrum the other day, i don't know the guy blah blah like i don't know you or what you have been through blah blah. i don't know what i am talking about but of course you do. For someone so young you are an authority on an awful lot and are really quite contrary.

By a man's works you know him and I have my opinion, to which I am entitled. it also gives me an idea about you too. You have yours and are welcome to it, i have not challenged it once.

i have opinions on all sorts of things i don't know personally as do you. Yours about Haskell are strangely hypocritical yet you identify with him - i wonder why?!! Mine are that he is a prize tulip and i have met many like him and in rugby they stand out like a big red plum because they are not tolerated.

Rather poor taste to make that public, no? I guess I identify with him because I too am a "prize tulip" as you think I am..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

mowgli wrote:No Rory in reality my opinions are based on tonnes of information i have read and life i have experienced. Where have i claimed I KNOW him? Specify where? I haven't, don't and don't wish to - i know that. Haskell has a rep as a clown who fit perfectly into RWC 2011 Jonner's Circus troupe. My point was that if he cut the BS he would be respected but he can't help himself because he loves himself.

Look this is the same bored argument you used in your PM tantrum the other day, i don't know the guy blah blah like i don't know you or what you have been through blah blah. i don't know what i am talking about but of course you do. For someone so young you are an authority on an awful lot and are really quite contrary.

By a man's works you know him and I have my opinion, to which I am entitled. it also gives me an idea about you too. You have yours and are welcome to it, i have not challenged it once.

i have opinions on all sorts of things i don't know personally as do you. Yours about Haskell are strangely hypocritical yet you identify with him - i wonder why?!! Mine are that he is a prize tulip and i have met many like him and in rugby they stand out like a big red plum because they are not tolerated.

Rather poor taste to make that public, no? I guess I identify with him because I too am a "prize tulip" as you think I am..

Looks like Haskell needs a bit of a break before he resumes duties in the Northern hemisphere.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10817322

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Looks like Haskell needs a bit of a break before he resumes duties in the Northern hemisphere.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10817322

He has had a pretty massive season though, no? He has went from France, to Japan, to New Zealand with very little rest in between. Not to mention the RWC and this tour against SA. I'm sure he is hoping for a break.

Rory
Most definitely, he has been playing for many months on end, even though when he arrived Jamie Joseph to him to (go away) and have a rest for 3weeks when he arrived fom Japan, he does usually only play the second half, but that is part of joseph's gameplan.

As a (until recent) resident of Dunedin I met him on several occasions. If I believed everything I read about this guy then I would have avoided him like the plague but I thought I'd see for myself. I found him to be a really nice guy and nothing at all like his reputation had me believe. Not once did I witness any of this alleged narcissism, no "look at me look at me" attitude at all. Always had time to talk to people. He very quickly became someone that I enjoyed talking to.

mowgli wrote:
However he is a publicity seeking narcissist knobber who think she is a lot funnier than he really is, loves the sound of his own voice and doesn't know when to shut up.

Granted I only met the guy a few times but I did get to speak to him for a considerable amount of time on occasion. And in that time not once did I see any evidence of any him being a "publicity seeking narcissistic knobber".

Robshaw against SA was as good an English display at 7 in the breakdown as I've seen since 2003

He also seems to have gone to Dunedin with an open mind, great to see him state that top quality surfaces enble players to play a higher standard of rugby.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Robshaw against SA was as good an English display at 7 in the breakdown as I've seen since 2003

Completely agree. I fully admit that I didn't think he would make the step up that quickly into the fetching role, but his performance really silenced me.

2. his behaviour at RWC 2011 was disgraceful an lacked judgment - fact

mowgli I think he started court proceedings over that as there was never a reported incident to the police it was just some hotel maid that ran straight to the newspapers in exchange for cash.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6051341/England-player-to-sue-Kiwi-hotel-maid

What actually happened I don't know but both sides seem ready to fight it out should it ever get to court.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

2. his behaviour at RWC 2011 was disgraceful an lacked judgment - fact

mowgli I think he started court proceedings over that as there was never a reported incident to the police it was just some hotel maid that ran straight to the newspapers in exchange for cash.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6051341/England-player-to-sue-Kiwi-hotel-maid

What actually happened I don't know but both sides seem ready to fight it out should it ever get to court.

Yes but Sam he shouldve known better than to have a shower in the privacy of his own hotel room

So basically, in conclusion, none of us know Haskell. We all get the same stuff fed through the media and forums such as this - often complete balls as Sam points out. Rory is inclined to take what he hears with a big pinch of salt because he has formed a positive opinion of Haskell and is prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Mowgli is inclined to believe every negative thing he reads about Haskell because he has already decided that he is a tool. Both stances are subjective no matter what either of you say, and the truth, as always, probably lies somewhere in between.

.....so how about we stop trying to second guess what type of bloke he is and judge him for his rugby?! My whole intial point was that Haskell (as a player - I couldn't care less about his personaility) is misunderstood. He's not an England 8 in waiting just because he's a beefcake and Lol said so. He is a grafting workhorse rather than a show pony, no matter what his gay calendar shots might suggest.

He did play very well last year and is one of the few experienced players currently playing well that we have. So surely he's a starter?

Haskell played well for England at 7 over the last year.

Was really poor in the midweek match on tour and does still tend to have brainfarts.

I always hoped he would develop into an 8 - but that does not look likely to happen. This therefore means he is competing against Robshaw for the 7 spot.

Play them at 6 and 7. Do it!!

Until Croft proves himself back to top form I would definitely select Haskell and Robshaw at 6 and 7. Harsh on Johnson who had a good 3rd test, but that is a strong flank pairing....

yappysnap, who should we have at 8 then?

Adam wrote:Until Croft proves himself back to top form I would definitely select Haskell and Robshaw at 6 and 7. Harsh on Johnson who had a good 3rd test, but that is a strong flank pairing....

Doesnt Robshaw have to prove his fitness and that he can tackle?

Zander wrote:yappysnap, who should we have at 8 then?

I'd probably go with Morgan as I expect a good few months chasing round supporting the Glos backs should up his fitness levels!

yappysnap wrote:

Zander wrote:yappysnap, who should we have at 8 then?

I'd probably go with Morgan as I expect a good few months chasing round supporting the Glos backs should up his fitness levels!

Doesn't that then leave England a little short on lineout options in the backrow is they have 6 Haskell 7 Robshaw 8 Morgan or is Robshaw good enough to jump in the lineout?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Adam wrote:Until Croft proves himself back to top form I would definitely select Haskell and Robshaw at 6 and 7. Harsh on Johnson who had a good 3rd test, but that is a strong flank pairing....

Doesnt Robshaw have to prove his fitness and that he can tackle?

Robshaw has proved both many times, that he missed a couple during Englands worst game for a while and with a broken arm and ribs is a testament to just how amazing he actually is.

Zander wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Zander wrote:yappysnap, who should we have at 8 then?

I'd probably go with Morgan as I expect a good few months chasing round supporting the Glos backs should up his fitness levels!

Doesn't that then leave England a little short on lineout options in the backrow is they have 6 Haskell 7 Robshaw 8 Morgan or is Robshaw good enough to jump in the lineout?

Robshaw jumps well for Quins. I assume we'll have Palmer and Parling (the third test combo that worked well)at lock both of whom are very good in the lineout.

Robshaw has proved both many times, that he missed a couple during Englands worst game for a while and with a broken arm and ribs is a testament to just how amazing he actually is.

I thought that was just a broken thumb and that he wasn't risked in the third test because we'd lost the series?

Robshaw jumps well for Quins. I assume we'll have Palmer and Parling (the third test combo that worked well)at lock both of whom are very good in the lineout.

There's a difference between jumping at international level and at AP level. Parling is pretty supreme at AP level but only good at international level, Palmer is average at international but very good at club level and Robshaw is below average at international level and was picked off by Spies a couple of times in both tests if I remember rightly. I think we need a bean pole in there somewhere, one of Croft or Wood.

Robshaw's tackle stats were the second best in the 6 N, behind only Dusautoir and ahead of SOB, Rennie, Lydiate, Ferris and Warbs both per game and absolutely. Before that SA game when he played injured, he had missed one tackle. He still has a tackle percentage of 95% completion. There is no doubt he can tackle

Pete why don't you ask Robshaw to prove he can tackle face to face? I'm sure he'd be more than happy to oblige

He's a tackle machine, and considering his performance in the second test was with an injury, he did extremely well. I can't imagine trying to go fetching with a broken thumb. The man is a warrior.

PSW, I was under the impression that Robshaw's injury was a fairly minor one, unlike Croft who will have missed some rugby and probably shouldn't be rushed straight back in until he's had time to hit top form and fitness.

When everyone's fit and firing I would like to see 6. Croft, 7. Robshaw, 8. Morgan/Waldrom with Haskell on the bench. But Haskell's display last time out, plus Croft's (and to a lesser extent, Robshaw's) injury might give Haskell an opportunity to lay a marker down in the opening AI.