Six Players England should give a chance in the Autumn

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1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

2. S.Armitage

Week in, week out this season for Toulon, Armitage has been consistently outstanding, both in defence and attack. He was voted the best player in the Top 14 this season and made the headlines for all the right reasons (unlike his brother). His ball carrying, scavenging and work-rate has been very impressive and he deserves a chance to show how much he has improved. This may mean shifting Robshaw over to 6, however the Robshaw/Armitage partnership reminds me of the Hill/Back partnership that served us so well in 2003.

3. D.Cipriani

One thing was obvious on our tour to South Africa, Farrell isn't ready to run an international backline, whilst Flood although competent at the basics at 10, isn't a world beater. Cipriani has the potential to bring out the best in the players around him, his kicking game, passing and game management is extremely strong, although he remains suspect in defence, which Lancaster may frown upon. Young Freddie Burns and George Ford's development, should also be closely monitored. Burn's impressed last season and Ford has been labelled as a potential superstar for a while now, this season could be his breakthrough season.

4. Billy Twelvetrees

This is a massive season for Twelvetrees. Barritt has been solid in the 12 jersey for England, however one dimensional in attack, with a weak passing and kicking game. Tuilagi impressed at 12 with his ball carrying, but it a more comfortable at 13 and doesn't quite yet possess a passing game. Twelvetrees could potentially be as good as Greenwood, he has an impressive passing game, an eye for the gap and the killer pass. His defence may need a bit of work, but he could be a top player and make that 12 jersey his own by the end of 2013

5. Miles Benjamin

Benjamin has always impressed me, he's extremely quick and very powerful, he's also weighs in over 16stone and is quite a physical specimen. This upcoming season he has moved to Leicester, and if he plays well for the Tigers, I expect international recognition to follow. I heard lots of clubs were interested in signing him, including Bath and i'm gutted he chose the Tigers as I reckon he will be a prolific try scorer for both club and country.

6. Jamie George

Despite Tom Youngs being selected ahead of him to go on tour with England to South Africa, I believe George could be the best young English hooker around. He is currently being tutored by two of South Africa's finest hookers in John Smit and Schalk Britz and is rated very highly at Safacens. His leadership has impressed, his lineout is top notch, scrummaging impressive and work-rate around the field also commended. He's destined for big things and could oust Hartley as the first choice hooker for England, by the end of 2013.

Thoughts?

Haha Ill stick to kicking hornets nests in future

PSW, I was under the impression that Robshaw's injury was a fairly minor one, unlike Croft who will have missed some rugby and probably shouldn't be rushed straight back in until he's had time to hit top form and fitness.

Adam I suspect Robshaw's injury status will depend heavilly on whether he needed surgery in the end or not. I think they kept him out of the third test in the hope that it would mend without need for surgery but there's been no tabloid info I've seen either way.

Croft is already back in the gym and will be easing into contact training closer to the start of the season, with an early October return forecast. Though as with all injuries that is open to change if he heals faster or slower than expected. Tigers won't rush him back, to be honest there is little need as with Mafi, Woods, Salvi, Newby, Waldrom and Crane all fit to start the season we have options.

Yeah...many of the optins cme down to who return from injury.

In an ideal world it would probably be something like:

6 Croft
7 Robshaw / Haskell
8 Morgan / Haskell

That would give balance, lineout, strong ball carrying and breakdwon work.

As it stands i can probably see it being...

6 Haskell
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

which i think could really match most back rows...but does leave a little short on lineout expertise....but im sure we could get round this.

I was sort of making up his injuries as we've had these arguments a million times. I hate this part of the year between seasons.

Croft for me just isn't the player for England, our best backrow performances have all come with either Wood, Robshaw, Hask or Johnson in there. As they're all a bit nastier then him.

He has done very well off the bench though and does seem like the type of player to step up to a challenge so I expect him to completely prove me wrong now!

The problem is the lineout though Yappy...where we need his expertise to help Parling and who ever else plays in the second row.

If Morgan was a lineout demon to go along with his ball carrying there would be no issue.

Maybe Wood could make that spot his if he returns.

The other thing to remember (and im not a Croft fan) is that Croft played his best few games for England in the last 6n...and was a real manace at slowing down the oppositions ball, played his considerable part in the strong defensive performance, dominated his lineut area and was a weapon in attack out in the channels.

We are beginning to see our back row options growing strongly...with different types of players. We just need to get the right balance...and that will also come off who we play at 4 &5. Ie If we go for two big'un like say Lawes and Attwood / Garvey etc then we simply must have a jumper like Croft. If we have a lighter enginer room...we should maybe balance it with a power flanker...

yappysnap wrote:I was sort of making up his injuries as we've had these arguments a million times. I hate this part of the year between seasons.

Croft for me just isn't the player for England, our best backrow performances have all come with either Wood, Robshaw, Hask or Johnson in there. As they're all a bit nastier then him.

He has done very well off the bench though and does seem like the type of player to step up to a challenge so I expect him to completely prove me wrong now!

Last years 6N game against France when he pretty much single handedly won the game springs to mind. Hes hardly played enough games under Lancastser to be leaping to conlussions about how much better/worse the current team is without him.
But I agree he wont simply walk back into the side and would be a n excellent bench option.

Adam wrote:So basically, in conclusion, none of us know Haskell. We all get the same stuff fed through the media and forums such as this - often complete balls as Sam points out. Rory is inclined to take what he hears with a big pinch of salt because he has formed a positive opinion of Haskell and is prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Mowgli is inclined to believe every negative thing he reads about Haskell because he has already decided that he is a tool. Both stances are subjective no matter what either of you say, and the truth, as always, probably lies somewhere in between.

.....so how about we stop trying to second guess what type of bloke he is and judge him for his rugby?! My whole intial point was that Haskell (as a player - I couldn't care less about his personaility) is misunderstood. He's not an England 8 in waiting just because he's a beefcake and Lol said so. He is a grafting workhorse rather than a show pony, no matter what his gay calendar shots might suggest.

Fair comment bro.

So do you agree that he is most likely not an 8? Also, at the wasps I doubt he will play 8 at all. Johnson has apparently been signed as an 8, with Vunipola also coming through the ranks. I think wasps' fans see him playing number 7.

Also, is there much point in converting any of the flankers to 8 or would it be better to just go with one of the specialist options? I've heard the likes of Wood/Croft/Robshaw/Haskell could make a good 8. Is it worth even trying out those combinations or should England just focus on Morgan, Waldrom, Crane and Fearns to play at 8?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Adam wrote:So basically, in conclusion, none of us know Haskell. We all get the same stuff fed through the media and forums such as this - often complete balls as Sam points out. Rory is inclined to take what he hears with a big pinch of salt because he has formed a positive opinion of Haskell and is prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Mowgli is inclined to believe every negative thing he reads about Haskell because he has already decided that he is a tool. Both stances are subjective no matter what either of you say, and the truth, as always, probably lies somewhere in between.

.....so how about we stop trying to second guess what type of bloke he is and judge him for his rugby?! My whole intial point was that Haskell (as a player - I couldn't care less about his personaility) is misunderstood. He's not an England 8 in waiting just because he's a beefcake and Lol said so. He is a grafting workhorse rather than a show pony, no matter what his gay calendar shots might suggest.

Fair comment bro.

So do you agree that he is most likely not an 8? Also, at the wasps I doubt he will play 8 at all. Johnson has apparently been signed as an 8, with Vunipola also coming through the ranks. I think wasps' fans see him playing number 7.

Also, is there much point in converting any of the flankers to 8 or would it be better to just go with one of the specialist options? I've heard the likes of Wood/Croft/Robshaw/Haskell could make a good 8. Is it worth even trying out those combinations or should England just focus on Morgan, Waldrom, Crane and Fearns to play at 8?

The thing is nearly all of our 8 options are the same style of player to some extent ie big trundling tanks that have questionable fitness and or skills etc

Just look at Waldrom, Morgan, Crane, Fearns, Vunipola. Every single one is a tank with question marks over their engine and ability to cut it at the greater pace of top games.

Haskell and to an extent potential 8's like Guest, York and Gibson all bring a very different type of playing style to the team and if they can be trained to Int standards are probably the closest we can come to other countries top 8's (Falatou, Heaslip, afro bloke from Oz, Reed, Spies).

yappysnap wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Adam wrote:So basically, in conclusion, none of us know Haskell. We all get the same stuff fed through the media and forums such as this - often complete balls as Sam points out. Rory is inclined to take what he hears with a big pinch of salt because he has formed a positive opinion of Haskell and is prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Mowgli is inclined to believe every negative thing he reads about Haskell because he has already decided that he is a tool. Both stances are subjective no matter what either of you say, and the truth, as always, probably lies somewhere in between.

.....so how about we stop trying to second guess what type of bloke he is and judge him for his rugby?! My whole intial point was that Haskell (as a player - I couldn't care less about his personaility) is misunderstood. He's not an England 8 in waiting just because he's a beefcake and Lol said so. He is a grafting workhorse rather than a show pony, no matter what his gay calendar shots might suggest.

Fair comment bro.

So do you agree that he is most likely not an 8? Also, at the wasps I doubt he will play 8 at all. Johnson has apparently been signed as an 8, with Vunipola also coming through the ranks. I think wasps' fans see him playing number 7.

Also, is there much point in converting any of the flankers to 8 or would it be better to just go with one of the specialist options? I've heard the likes of Wood/Croft/Robshaw/Haskell could make a good 8. Is it worth even trying out those combinations or should England just focus on Morgan, Waldrom, Crane and Fearns to play at 8?

The thing is nearly all of our 8 options are the same style of player to some extent ie big trundling tanks that have questionable fitness and or skills etc

Just look at Waldrom, Morgan, Crane, Fearns, Vunipola. Every single one is a tank with question marks over their engine and ability to cut it at the greater pace of top games.

Haskell and to an extent potential 8's like Guest, York and Gibson all bring a very different type of playing style to the team and if they can be trained to Int standards are probably the closest we can come to other countries top 8's (Falatou, Heaslip, afro bloke from Oz, Reed, Spies).

Don't forget Alex Gray as well at London Irish.

Interesting - and what about Wood as a possible option at 8? From what I have seen and heard he seems to be the most well balanced option in the back row. I haven't really seen him make big carries through heavy traffic though. Can he do that, or is he too lightweight?

And if Oz can conver their wing to an 8 then we should be able to move a flanker a few feet in.

Wood's style seems more like Robshaw's. So happy to go in to contact but not with the pace and power to burst through and carry on going. I can't imagine he's that quick either, especially with the dodgy foot, so running back a kick return wouldn't be as effective as a lot of others.

It's been talked about before but how about trialling Croft at 8 off the bench? It would probably have to be against a team with a weaker scrum then us but could be interesting

Yappy, I just don't think he's bulky enough. He's best when attacking at an angle further out, picking off the base of the scrum is a pretty physical ask if your not powering forwards.

Just look at Waldrom, Morgan, Crane, Fearns, Vunipola. Every single one is a tank with question marks over their engine and ability to cut it at the greater pace of top games

I'd point to a couple of flaws in Crane's game but the size of this 'tank' really isn't one of them. I think he could probably play 160 mins none stop. He is a real machine and close to Haskell in terms of physique, just lacks the pace.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yappy, I just don't think he's bulky enough. He's best when attacking at an angle further out, picking off the base of the scrum is a pretty physical ask if your not powering forwards.

True but off the bench against a scrum going backwards (we've had the upper hand in the final quarter in most games) he could be very effective. I just think it's the best position to see him get the ball in his hands most often and for a player with his skill set that's what we want.

The thing is im actually quite happy with Morgan, Crane Fearns style of play. If Fearns and Morgan can get regular starting spots and get fit they could be real assets and their all round game will improve.

One thing i would say Crane has NO issues with is Fitness. Pace yes maybe but he will keep going all day. If he comes back in top form then i would have no issues with him being in the mix.

Outsiders - Alex Gray...York has just joined us and will be working under a top class former 8 in Deano...

Geordie, 100% agree.

Granted, number 8's have changed a bit. At the top, top level you've got lads like Spies, Reid and Parisse who - if they fancied it - look as if they could put in a good shift at 13 alongside being able to break through head-on tackles from the front 5. But they are basically physical freaks!

Broadly, I still see the 8's core function as the same: he's got to be able to make yards through heavy traffic. In spite of being freakishly gifted in other areas of the game, the likes of Spies, Reid, Parisse are all able to do this, and that's why they're the top 8's. It is the core function of the specialist 8, and that's why I would rather see a Ben Morgan (or Carl Fearns, or Tom Waldrom) in there than any converted 6, regarless of all-round game..........the coach can take care of that by properly balancing his backrow trio.

Just a quick question, is Crane any good at being a lineout jumper?

He's not a croft....

Playing the devils advocate here so bare with me, but where is the line out specialist 6 in the current All Blacks squad, Bok squad or Aussie squad? Come to think of it, where in any of the previous world cup winning squads was there one?

Finally a quick question. It's the world cup final in 3 years time and England (just a scenario so go along with it) are playing X (insert any realistic option) and are winning by 4 points with 3 mins left on the clock. Team X win a scrum 5 meters out from England's line and have a decent blindside to work with. X get parity and have a solid platform, from which the eight picks and goes blind looking to steal glory for his side. So, who would you want making that tackle then? Croft?

Again don't shoot me, just playing devils advocate.

It is a good point that there are a lot of athletic, dynamic 8s dominating world rugby right now like Read, Harinordoquy, Parisse and in the past Heaslip (I wouldn't have Spies anywhere near those guys) and they seem to rely more on pace and skills rather than brute strength. However, one of the best 8s in world rugby (Picamoles) to me looks like the ideal 8 for any team. Basically he has the skills of all of those guys, yet he is about 18 stone and literally always makes ground and beats his man. He has a large work rate too, and can put any team on the front foot. So far the likes of Morgan and Fearns have shown they may have the ability to become that sort of player, which would be a huge asset to any team.

In fact I would probably say Picamoles is the best 8 in world rugby if he can be selected consistently for France and prove his abilities against the biggest teams. The only attribute most of those other options have over Picamoles is their abilities in the line out, and possibly a bit more pace (yet Picamoles is surprisingly quick). Morgan in particular for England seems to have the ability to do this, as he is incredibly dynamic for the size of him. His work rate is his downfall though.

Then why has he got so few France caps? (I agree Picamoles is an utter beast).

jamesandimac wrote:Playing the devils advocate here so bare with me, but where is the line out specialist 6 in the current All Blacks squad, Bok squad or Aussie squad? Come to think of it, where in any of the previous world cup winning squads was there one?

Finally a quick question. It's the world cup final in 3 years time and England (just a scenario so go along with it) are playing X (insert any realistic option) and are winning by 4 points with 3 mins left on the clock. Team X win a scrum 5 meters out from England's line and have a decent blindside to work with. X get parity and have a solid platform, from which the eight picks and goes blind looking to steal glory for his side. So, who would you want making that tackle then? Croft?

Again don't shoot me, just playing devils advocate.

New Zealands last game against Ireland Mccaw took 5 of NZ's 10 lineouts. They won 60-0.
Rugby Worlsd cup final Reed took 4 of their 13 and Kaino another. They won that too.
Not sure what that proves. But its a thing. New Zealands lineout relies on having regular options in the backrow. Bear in mind with Croft as well its not so much his role in Englands own throws but the job he does in spoiling the opposition is heis real strength, hes very good at getting up without a lift and reading where the ball will be coming.

Many scenarios could also be constructed where Croft gets across to make a brilliant covering tackle, or is the extra man in a sweeping attacking move and skins cover defence to score the winning try. The simple fact is he was a starting Lion 3 years ago and is a better all round player now than he was then. Its nmot a given that he should walk back into the starting lineup, but it would be a major surprise if a fit croft wasnt one of 4 backrows in the matchday squad

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

jamesandimac wrote:Playing the devils advocate here so bare with me, but where is the line out specialist 6 in the current All Blacks squad, Bok squad or Aussie squad? Come to think of it, where in any of the previous world cup winning squads was there one?

Finally a quick question. It's the world cup final in 3 years time and England (just a scenario so go along with it) are playing X (insert any realistic option) and are winning by 4 points with 3 mins left on the clock. Team X win a scrum 5 meters out from England's line and have a decent blindside to work with. X get parity and have a solid platform, from which the eight picks and goes blind looking to steal glory for his side. So, who would you want making that tackle then? Croft?

Again don't shoot me, just playing devils advocate.

New Zealands last game against Ireland Mccaw took 5 of NZ's 10 lineouts. They won 60-0.
Rugby Worlsd cup final Reed took 4 of their 13 and Kaino another. They won that too.
Not sure what that proves. But its a thing. New Zealands lineout relies on having regular options in the backrow. Bear in mind with Croft as well its not so much his role in Englands own throws but the job he does in spoiling the opposition is heis real strength, hes very good at getting up without a lift and reading where the ball will be coming.

Many scenarios could also be constructed where Croft gets across to make a brilliant covering tackle, or is the extra man in a sweeping attacking move and skins cover defence to score the winning try. The simple fact is he was a starting Lion 3 years ago and is a better all round player now than he was then. Its nmot a given that he should walk back into the starting lineup, but it would be a major surprise if a fit croft wasnt one of 4 backrows in the matchday squad

RE: backrow jumpers - Juan Smith took an awful lot of lineout ball in the 07 WC winning bok side, and the current bok backrow are frequently used in that set piece - notably Spies. I can't remember the Aussies doing this so much - although Elsom is/was certainly used as a lineout option - but, then again, the Aussie lineout ain't exactly historically dominant. So, in short, your devil's advocate attempt fails.

Also, RE: Croft defending the short side. Firstly, when was the last time, in international rugby, you saw an 8 pick and go and score directly? I can't remember it. It ain't schoolboy rugby. I would back Croft - as a proven test-class and Lions 6 - to make that first-up tackle every single time.

Also, RE: Croft defending the short side. Firstly, when was the last time, in international rugby, you saw an 8 pick and go and score directly? I can't remember it. It ain't schoolboy rugby. I would back Croft - as a proven test-class and Lions 6 - to make that first-up tackle every single time

To be honest when was the last time you saw an international ref allow a scrum to crab 5m sideways and then wheel backwards to allow the 8 to breakoff. Quins benefitted in that Barnes wholeheartedly bought the story from the Quins management about Johnson's great scrummaging ability.

Even so it was a poor tackle by Croft, if he'd moved his head to the otherside then he was in a good enough position to stop Easter.

when is the EPS to be announced?

this week?!?!?

End of the month I think

yappysnap wrote:Then why has he got so few France caps? (I agree Picamoles is an utter beast).

Probably because of Harinordoquy being more experienced and still a world class 8, and the erratic french coaches. However, Harinordoquy can play flanker and I genuinely think Picamoles is better at 8 anyway. Don't forget Picamoles is only 25/26.

BREAKING NEWS: Haskell left out of 32 man EPS in favour of Johnson.

....wowzer!

Don't agree with that, but as we've all been saying, Lancaster gets a better look at the players than we ever will and he's obviously not been thrilled with the Hask.

In fairness to Johnson, he did seem to step up after struggling in the first test

I think that might be more to do with Haskell needing a rest after a huge season than anything. He has played in France, Japan, NZ and also internationals with England. He was one of your best players against SA and got through a huge amount of work.

However Johnson might deserve his place more as he plays in England unlike Haskell.

Haskell is back in England Rory

Theres other alraming decisions ....Lancaster going down the tried and tested selection poilcy f%%k up of England managers

Rory_Gallagher wrote:However Johnson might deserve his place more as he plays in England unlike Haskell.

He's moved to Wasps this season and even though i'm a big Johnson fan Haskell is definitely the future.

Surely 'The Hask' doesn't require rest??!!

Did Chuck Norris rest?! No....he's still making 'World of Warcraft' adverts!

Did Rocky Balboa rest?! No....he carried on getting pummelled into his 60's in sequel after terrible sequel.

....I heard 'The Hask' sleeps whilst doing crunches. Rest shmest - he should be in!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Haskell is back in England Rory

Already? Isn't he still with the Highlanders until their season is over before heading to the Wasps?

Adam wrote:Surely 'The Hask' doesn't require rest??!!

Did Chuck Norris rest?! No....he's still making 'World of Warcraft' adverts!

Did Rocky Balboa rest?! No....he carried on getting pummelled into his 60's in sequel after terrible sequel.

....I heard 'The Hask' sleeps whilst doing crunches. Rest shmest - he should be in!

Well to be honest, his tireless work rate against SA shows he still has a lot in the tank apparently.

Adam wrote:BREAKING NEWS: Haskell left out of 32 man EPS in favour of Johnson.

....wowzer!

Don't agree with that, but as we've all been saying, Lancaster gets a better look at the players than we ever will and he's obviously not been thrilled with the Hask.

In fairness to Johnson, he did seem to step up after struggling in the first test

Ridiculous.
Johnosn did OK but Haskell is the better all round player. I can only assume they have specialist things they want Johnson to do. Or maybe Lancaster just really dislikes gay porn

Lancaster has seen enough of Haskell after 1 short tour....one can only speculate why!!

Firstly can I say this phrase made my laugh; "big but mobile and fit as a South African drug cheat".

Does anyone know when Wood is going to be fit again? I feel that one of him or Croft needs to be fit and firing in the lineout to get the balance of the pack right. Haskell may well be bench cover at the start of the AI's (removing Dowson?), although a decent start to the premiership might put him in the frame for a starting spot.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Firstly can I say this phrase made my laugh; "big but mobile and fit as a South African drug cheat".

Does anyone know when Wood is going to be fit again? I feel that one of him or Croft needs to be fit and firing in the lineout to get the balance of the pack right. Haskell may well be bench cover at the start of the AI's (removing Dowson?), although a decent start to the premiership might put him in the frame for a starting spot.

Youd think, but Lancaster has left him out of the just announced EPS and put Dowson in. Strange but true.