When is London not London?

When it comes to the Aviva Premiership of course.

Next season there will be 5 "London" teams - yet not one of them actually plays within a London postcode. In fact we cannot be sure where all the teams will be playing.

London Irish will be at the Madge. Have extended their contract and are happy there.
Quins at the Stoop.

After that things are less clear.

Saracens want to move to Barnet - but have yet to start building the new facilities, nor signed a deal to extend their stay in Watford.
Wasps may or may not be bought out by the middle of July - once due diligence is complete - but the new consortium want to play "somewhere on the M40 corridor".
London Welsh have a verbal agreement to plat at the Kassam in Oxford - but no signed contract, and tentative plans to rotate home matches.

God it is a mess


Oh, and which team misses out on the London double Header?

LondonTiger wrote:When it comes to the Aviva Premiership of course.

Next season there will be 5 "London" teams - yet not one of them actually plays within a London postcode. In fact we cannot be sure where all the teams will be playing.

London Irish will be at the Madge. Have extended their contract and are happy there.
Quins at the Stoop.

After that things are less clear.

Saracens want to move to Barnet - but have yet to start building the new facilities, nor signed a deal to extend their stay in Watford.
Wasps may or may not be bought out by the middle of July - once due diligence is complete - but the new consortium want to play "somewhere on the M40 corridor".
London Welsh have a verbal agreement to plat at the Kassam in Oxford - but no signed contract, and tentative plans to rotate home matches.

God it is a mess


Oh, and which team misses out on the London double Header?

LW obviously, with their fan base they'd be hard-pushed to fill a bus.

There are too many "transient clubs" in the AP as it is, now another one has joined the London set it's getting ridiculous, given the options LW have offered for home games, the uncertainty at Wasps and the Saracens wanderlust saga, most London rugby fans will need a satnav to get to their home games.

It's a pretty sad indictment of the RFU's inability to run the game, LT. The RFU's intent is to encourage AP clubs to build for the future, in terms of fan base, infrastructure, facilities etc.etc. The fact that they've been turned over by LW on the primacy of tenure point is little more than farcical, but I still don't see LW from benefiting massively next season.

I still feel a little embarrassed by the fact that Bath still don't own their own ground (as yet), the fact that they've played there for almost 120 years doesn't really come into it.

So, "London" Tiger, where you from? Southend?

We will now have:
Wycombe Wasps, which play about 30 miles from London.
Reading Irish, which play about 40 miles from London
Oxford Welsh, which play about 60 mles from London

Joking aside, I believe this is bad because of a few primary reasons:

• Some legal body has made an important Rugby club and league policy invalid over not much more than a technicality. The implication is that sports leagues cannot manage their own path to profitability and growth.

• Rugby becomes even more geographically concentrated

• This process has made it almost impossible for the London/Oxford Welsh to sign the players needed to stay in the Premiership. Will there be another legal battle at the end of the season if they are relegated back down?

What makes this worse is I have always loved a visit to Old Deer Park to watch London Welsh.

Quins are basically in London

LondonTiger wrote:
Next season there will be 5 "London" teams - yet not one of them actually plays within a London postcode.

Given the degree that the London area has boomed geographically and in population (with more people living in the suburbs), I'm not sure how relevant a postal system devised 150 odd years ago is.

It's certainly true however that Harlequins is the only club that plays in a London borough (Welsh & Wasps train and have their offices within London) and the other clubs should really be closer, but I suspect property prices and demands within the london boroughs make that a difficult if not prohibitive development aim. Saracens moving to the borough of Barnet and NW4 area is a step in the right direction.

I do find it curious that no clubs have sought to take advantage of the comparatively cheaper east areas of London, which could draw on the uncatered for rugby keen counties of Kent & Essex (the only county body that can claim more rugby clubs than Essex is the territorially enormous Yorkshire).

Quins are in London. Twickenham is within the city I believe.

Looseheaded wrote:Quins are in London. Twickenham is within the city I believe.

Its not in "The City" , its in the borough of Richmond along with LWs and LSs homes grounds. They are covered by the London Authority. So they are in London, but not in The City of London. Hardly anything is, its tiny. When people say London, they mean greater London. Technically London Irish are still based in Sunbury (not to be confused with Sudbury which is where Wasps clubhouse is, the other side of Surrey), which has a Twickenham postcode but is in Surrey, just outside the London Authority.
Most normal people would say LW and Quins are London clubs

You could argue though that LW moving their games to Oxford helps spread the geography of professional rugby. At the moment they are literally next to LS's ground which is also used by Richmond, and is only a short dink from the Stoop and Twickers.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Quins are in London. Twickenham is within the city I believe.

Its not in "The City" , its in the borough of Richmond along with LWs and LSs homes grounds. They are covered by the London Authority. So they are in London, but not in The City of London. Hardly anything is, its tiny. When people say London, they mean greater London. Technically London Irish are still based in Sunbury (not to be confused with Sudbury which is where Wasps clubhouse is, the other side of Surrey), which has a Twickenham postcode but is in Surrey, just outside the London Authority.
Most normal people would say LW and Quins are London clubs

You could argue though that LW moving their games to Oxford helps spread the geography of professional rugby. At the moment they are literally next to LS's ground which is also used by Richmond, and is only a short dink from the Stoop and Twickers.

Sorry, worded that poorly, it was late. Yeah I meant that it is within the london area or whatever the correct terms would be.

I've been born and raised in Richmond/Twickenham so know what you mean regarding the stupidity and confusion surrounding the postcodes and county system. Half the time Middlesex is a county the other half it doesn't exist.

And with regards to LW, it's a shame to see them go, and I will miss not being able to sneak in at half time at Old Deer Park, but at the same time, Aviva is Aviva. Also I did always love the Richmond/LW/LS ground closeness. It made sunday morning mini rugby great, and brought through some cracking players in the area. Maybe it's just my dislike for change but I always loved the fact that the area was so rugby obsessed, and that pubs like Sun Inn would draw in players from all four clubs on any given day.

Its not just the rugby clubs that are blurring the lines of London.

You now have London Southend airport, and I believe London Oxford airport.


Essex cricket used to play home games at various different locations, so there us precedent fire having different home locations.

In fact as a kid, I quite liked the fact that Essex cricket would play some games only half a mile down the road from where I lived.
It meant that I got the chance to see them, as I couldn't get to Chelmsford.

So LW having different home ground locations may not be so bad, but I think something like that only works if you already have a large fan base.

wasps wrote:Its not just the rugby clubs that are blurring the lines of London.

You now have London Southend airport, and I believe London Oxford airport.


Essex cricket used to play home games at various different locations, so there us precedent fire having different home locations.

In fact as a kid, I quite liked the fact that Essex cricket would play some games only half a mile down the road from where I lived.
It meant that I got the chance to see them, as I couldn't get to Chelmsford.

So LW having different home ground locations may not be so bad, but I think something like that only works if you already have a large fan base.

Right and some come of regional basis, the problem with Oxford is that its not really connected with West London in any meaningful way ... just theres a decent bus service to Heathrow.
Nor is it close enough to Wales to easily draw on that angle. There wont be any welsh people at uni there even.
But whilst the club itself will just be "some club" to the locals, at least its an area youd expect a fairly large natural interest in RU.

Will LW now be paying rent on both of the grounds that they run out of? I know that the council owns Old Deer Park, so they rent that. But if they're paying rent to this stadium owner in Oxford could they not end up like the Blues last season? Paying rent on two stadiums which then puts a financial strain on the company, maybe the fans won’t like it and so on.

I didnt realise they were only renting the Deer Park. I wouldnt think they are paying too much for it, its not like theres much else that could be done with the place.
Youd assume they have a plan that makes the Oxford ground pay for itself, but its pretty clear they are either going to be hocking the family silver or going into the Jeff with a ridiculously light squad....especially as they wont be able to take advantage of dual registration and wont benefit from an EPS share.
But given they did almost go out of existence a few years ago all of this has to be a concern. They arent likely to get invited to the double header either.

I'm 99% sure that the council own the ground. Maybe LW owns the infrastructure such as the stand and posts or something. But the reason that they've had to move to Oxford for bigger games is because they're not allowed to further develop on the site as it’s seen as a green lung in the area. I just hope they don’t sign anything stupid, like a 20 year contract to play at the stadium forgoing most of the food and drinks revenues ala The Blues.

They can;t develop on the ground, though I was under the impression it was due to being royal land or something along those lines. I reckon London Welsh would still have ties with Old Deer Park as that's where their minis, age groups, and amateur side play. They wont uproot all of those things for the sake of the first team.

Especially not if its just for a year anyway. Although I do fully expect the chairman to start campaigning to have relegation scrapped with immediate effect....