The London Welsh Spanking Thread

[yappysnap]

First topic message reminder :

London Welsh are the Robin Hood of the Rugby world.

To some they're heroic anti-establishment freedom fighters, valiantly sticking up for the underdogs against the wicked RFU and it's plans to make the Premiership a sound business model. To others they're a bunch of nitpicking moaners who threw their toys out of the pram over a bunch of fairly sound rules they had fair warning about and chose to bypass on a technicality.

But none of that matters, all I want to know is who you think will be handing them their biggest spanking of the pro era.

Welcome London Welsh to the Premiership ( Best League in the World TM).

(NB this is obviously factoring in Gavin Henson not signing for them)

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Just how does maesteg propose to create franchises? Come on maes, put your David Lloyd George hat on,

Anyway, I thought he gad a deep interest in matters concerning Jeff promotion.

I don't have any proposals, but limiting the opportunity for small clubs to compete against the wealthy seems to be order of the day.

How many different teams have won the Premiership

Tigers must have won more than half the titles in the last 20 years, occasionally beaten in the final by another of the almost as wealthy clubs.

Wasps even in their pomp were and never have been rich or big wage payers. They just had some great players at the time who stayed with the club and seemed to get the best out of players supposedly coming to the end of their careers. A lot of the players could have moved on and massively increased their wages but didn't.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Just how does maesteg propose to create franchises? Come on maes, put your David Lloyd George hat on,

Anyway, I thought he gad a deep interest in matters concerning Jeff promotion.

I don't have any proposals, but limiting the opportunity for small clubs to compete against the wealthy seems to be order of the day.

How many different teams have won the Premiership

Tigers must have won more than half the titles in the last 20 years, occasionally beaten in the final by another of the almost as wealthy clubs.

Wasps even in their pomp were and never have been rich or big wage payers. They just had some great players at the time who stayed with the club and seemed to get the best out of players supposedly coming to the end of their careers. A lot of the players could have moved on and massively increased their wages but didn't.

Nor did Tigers win the majority of league titles in the last 20 years. But lets not let facts get in the way of a good opportunity to have a pop at English rugby.

Of course the Celtic league is a shining example of how a league can be kept competitive with a grand total of err 8 winners and runners up in 10 years (inclduing the period before welsh regionalisation), which is less than the 9 clubs who competed in the Jeff final in the same time period.

The truth is that the RFU has tried to balance the needs of the top flight clubs to be able to secure investment against the needs of the lower league clubs to be able to crash the party and stay viable themselves. PRL too has done a job in trying to keep the big clubs from getting too far ahead of their rivals. Even the second most supported club in England managed to get themselves relegated not too long ago, and its only really Tigers who havent at some point been in a relegation battle. Because of the cap rules that cant soley be put down to their riches ( and they dont have the levels of spending seen at Bath recently) but also to good management of the club and the team (aside from by that Argie).

Going forward it is inevitable that some form of ring fencing and franchising will be bought in. That will be to the detriment of clubs like LW or more importantly the smaller PRL clubs. All parties have done their bes to fudge the issue and find a compromise over the last few years but the system is creaking, and it will change. The RFU will want more central control over england players, the big clubs will want better guarantees of return on investment in return. Big decisions will have to be made on how a new premiership is structured, are places given based on merit on the field or based on likely contribution to the league and Union (players and finance) in the future? Should clubs be encouraged to follow short termism or long term investment and player/facilities development?
Whichever way things go it will be painful process for some. For all the RFU mismanagement of professionalism its not abad thing taht we have managed to keep some semblance of a traditional club game left in England. It wont last forever though.

[Guest]

I reckon Oxford Welsh will give High Wycombe Wasps and Reading Irish a good game.

[Bushys]

And I reckon you're wrong.

[George Carlin]

Henson is flakier than a stale croissant in a wind tunnel.

At least Lyn knows the player and there is history of achievement between them. If he can't make it with them, he won't make it with any other team in Europe because at 30, he's just not worth the risk.

Sadly, I think that LW will get horsed regularly - the spine of the team just does not look as hardened to me as Chiefs were when they came up. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. Lots of the other Premiership clubs have recruited well in the off season.

[Portnoy]

The biggest gamble for London Welsh is the danger of it all going spectacularly wrong financially. Even at knock-down prices Gav wouldn't come cheap. Neither will a contract for a season's loan of the Kassam Stadium.

Gavin has such a responsibility personally not to swagger and gloat and generally make himself unpopular and adversely affect the collective mentality- not a mindset you'd normally immediately associate with Gav judging by his past experiences (particularly at Toulon). OK that was a big pond, but it seems to me that his DNA is such that he demands attention and plaudits to feed his ego.

It's perfectly conceivable that Welsh could end the season without a win - there biggest chance would have to be (drawing on v2 posters' collective foresight) would have to be Worcester at home - and that's the last game of the season.

If it all goes itts-up, LW could turn their inflated aspirations into administration and leave the fag-eng of their most loyal fans and administrators facing a re-start club Richmond/London Scottish-style seven tiers down in the leagues.

[Bushys]

Certainly, London Welsh's behaviour has stirred up a lot of vitriol on the
various clubs' discussion boards - they're not at all popular! And there's
certainly a body of opinion that is sick of them playing the "poor little
put-upon Championship team" bleating.

They may have won the Championship according to the terms of the competition as far as the league went - but that wasn't all there was to it, as there were other stipulations and conditions, especially with regard to ground quality. LWelsh made no provision against the prospect of promotion until after the deadline had passed and only scrambled around at the last minute to get the Kassam Stadium deal. They do not have a sustainable business model, albeit this is an accusation that you could level at several other Premiership clubs, and have made steady losses (I'm hoping that Wasps' new owners will address this for the club, but that's another story).

As a club, they seem to be run by a bunch of rich Taffia members and it
certainly sticks in my craw that a club that is affiliated to the WRU is
going to accept a large amount of central RFU funding when they don't seem to have had any commitment to (English) player development to date.

Exeter, by contrast, have won lots of friends through the enthusiasm of
their fans and their clear commitment to building a team. No star names (not really, yet), but a good solid squad who put it on the line for one another.

[Portnoy]

London Welsh's Gavin Henson has admitted that he signed for the Aviva Premiership newboys in an attempt to "put things right" after being sacked by previous side the Cardiff Blues.

Henson had his contract terminated by the RaboDirect PRO12 side due to an off-field incident but he has revealed that before that happened, he was considering hanging up his boots because the Blues were not going to renew his contract.

He deemed that it would have been "embarrassing" had he signed for his fourth club in under two years - following other stints with Saracens and Toulon - but after the way his time at the Blues ended, he was keen to make amends.

"I want another chance to put things right because I thought that was it," Henson said. "It was going to be my last club. I was made well aware they weren't going to sign me on. That was demoralising.

"If you watch that last game (against Glasgow) where I was brought on as a wing - that sums up the way things were at the club. It was tough. I couldn't move on to another club. It was starting to get embarrassing. I was more or less finished then, rugby-wise.

"The writing was on the wall before then and they took their opportunity to strike. I fell into that trap really. In a way, if there's anything good to come out of it [being sacked], it was that I knew things couldn't end like that.

"I had to bite the bullet and sign again for another club and try and put things right. I just have to make sure I stay on the straight and narrow and play the best I can.

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/168873.html

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Starting to get embarrassing? Jesus what does he think was going on for the previous 3 years?

[ScarletSpiderman]

Henson may well be out for the start of the season with a suspected factured cheek bone after the pre-season friendly against the Scarlets. He was not looking to bad, but his kicking was poor. That said London Welsh looked far better with Gordon Ross at fly half. However I have revised my opinion of them. I don't think they are going to roll over and get their tummies tickled, but against some of the higher quality teams they may well get a thumping.

[maestegmafia]

Just how does maesteg propose to create franchises? Come on maes, put your David Lloyd George hat on,

Anyway, I thought he gad a deep interest in matters concerning Jeff promotion.

I don't have any proposals, but limiting the opportunity for small clubs to compete against the wealthy seems to be order of the day.

How many different teams have won the Premiership

Tigers must have won more than half the titles in the last 20 years, occasionally beaten in the final by another of the almost as wealthy clubs.

Well said...!

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Just how does maesteg propose to create franchises? Come on maes, put your David Lloyd George hat on,

Anyway, I thought he gad a deep interest in matters concerning Jeff promotion.

I don't have any proposals, but limiting the opportunity for small clubs to compete against the wealthy seems to be order of the day.

How many different teams have won the Premiership

Tigers must have won more than half the titles in the last 20 years, occasionally beaten in the final by another of the almost as wealthy clubs.

Well said...!

Maesteg,

You appear to be talking to yourself!

[maestegmafia]

Again the mighty/plucky welsh Exiles prove 18 voters wrong...

These boys are starting to look like they may well be around in the Premiership next season.

[HammerofThunor]

Again the mighty/plucky welsh Exiles prove 18 voters wrong...

These boys are starting to look like they may well be around in the Premiership next season.

Perhaps the gap between the have and have not's that you kept banging on about isn't as big as you assumed?

[maestegmafia]

Again the mighty/plucky welsh Exiles prove 18 voters wrong...

These boys are starting to look like they may well be around in the Premiership next season.

Perhaps the gap between the have and have not's that you kept banging on about isn't as big as you assumed?

No I would think that if London welsh thrashed any of the "have's" Leicester, Saints, Saracens or Quins.


You seem to still be unable to understand the concept of "Have" and "Have Not"...?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Perhaps its just theres more have nots than we first thought.

Great leveller of squad rotations in the HC/International providing clubs aside LW have massively exceeded expectations so far. You have to give them some credit for turning a massive steaming pile of turd into a fairly efficent fertiliser.
In recent years weve seen both Leeds and Exeter come up and have a good season. It does show the gulf isnt insurmountable.

Whether LW have a long term viable business plan that will enable them to keep paying a full squad yet has to be seen. Leeds didnt.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Just how does maesteg propose to create franchises? Come on maes, put your David Lloyd George hat on,

Anyway, I thought he gad a deep interest in matters concerning Jeff promotion.

I don't have any proposals, but limiting the opportunity for small clubs to compete against the wealthy seems to be order of the day.

How many different teams have won the Premiership

Tigers must have won more than half the titles in the last 20 years, occasionally beaten in the final by another of the almost as wealthy clubs.

Well said...!

They have the same record as the Ospreys do in the Celtic league I belive, and without checking I think the same number of winners in both compeitions in the period both have run (actually possibly more? I dunno look it up)

So yes in the same way that the the Celtic League and T14 and S15 are usually contested by the same old faces the Jeff is the preserve of Northampton, Tigers, Quins, Saracens, Newcastle, Bath, Wasps, Gloucester and possibly someone else this year.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

So apparently LW are so confident that they might actually stay up after all thatr they have started negotiations on venues for next year.
A ground share with Brentford is a possible, as is Selhurst Park...but it looks like Oxford may become their semi permanent home.
they are also looking to get included in the london double headers, although how that will wash with a very under supported club Im not sure . Course London Irish could do them a favour there by getting relegated.

[maestegmafia]

Well they are nine points clear of the bottom of the premiership with the two teams below them struggling.

[formerly known as Sam]

LI and Sale aren't struggling, they are imploding. LW are an average team playing clever. Fair play to them that coukd keep them up.

I suppose credit must go to Jones, he's kept his head and his team's organisation whilst Smith has failed to replace the key players lost in the summer leaving his team rudderless. Redpath's appointment has put Sale's team back years, they have showed nothing of the nous and tactical awareness of last season.

[maestegmafia]

It's been great to see such a famous London Club back at the top table. Another year might give them time and opportunity to stick around a lot longer.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

As i said previously i believe their best chance of becoming sustainable would be if Irish were relegated. Although in theory they represent different exile communities they do cover broadly the same geographical area both being West London/Surrey clubs relocated up the Thames valley so could pick up some of the casual support.

Im still not 100% convinced they are safe though, I fancy sale to turn the season around after last week, whereas LW look to be on the slide a bit. LI though less likely to overhaulthem, Id have 5p on them to be relegated now.

If LI do go itll be a real struggle for them to get back IMO, its not really a club with a strong natural support base or any great assets. Maybe theyd look at moving into the ODP...?

[Effervescing Elephant]

Maybe LI, LW and LS could merge and form the 'London Celtic Rabo Magners Pro Direct Super Force Ultra 5000s'.

[maestegmafia]

Maybe LI, LW and LS could merge and form the 'London Celtic Rabo Magners Pro Direct Super Force Ultra 5000s'.

Those teams represent a great tradition in London Rugby that goes back to the foundations of the game. Something it would be very sad to loose.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Anti-joke chicken strikes again.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Maybe LI, LW and LS could merge and form the 'London Celtic Rabo Magners Pro Direct Super Force Ultra 5000s'.

Those teams represent a great tradition in London Rugby that goes back to the foundations of the game. Something it would be very sad to loose.

And the last LI/LS merger didn't work out too well ...

[maestegmafia]

Anti-joke chicken strikes again.

What ?

[Effervescing Elephant]

S'allright maes mate, it's an internet meme thingy-ma-jigger.

[gregortree]

To make it a more accurate (but less snappy) they could call a merged outfit:

West of London Celtic and Pacific Exiles Combination Club.

And while they are at it, allow the bankrupt Wasps to join.

[Irish Londoner]

Let's have a flight of fancy and suggest that the three "Exile" clubs combined as a professional team and joined the Robocop as "London Celts" or similar, there's part of me thinks that bird could fly, with the Welsh, Irish, Italian and Scottish Teams visiting London (Or Oxford/Reading) and there would still be the involvement against English and French clubs in whatever form the HEC/Amlin takes.
Could be a disaster but on the other hand..... might =

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Tried at the outset of the professional game by Scottish, Irish and (Richmond), but not a huge success back then. Might fly now

[maestegmafia]

What would be interesting would be that the PRL demand all Premiership clubs to have a certain quota of English qualified players.

London Welsh certainly have that, though the only England International is Voyce. Most others qualify as English through residency or a parent but have no interest in playing for England as they consider themselves Welsh.

Interesting to see that London Irish didn't take a similar route...?

[AlastairW]

Most others qualify as English through residency or a parent but have no interest in playing for England as they consider themselves Welsh.

Have you spoken to them recently? Where are you getting this from?

LI maybe having a tough season but they've brought through a lot of England players, are an English club with Irish roots. OW simply haven't been in the AP long enough to know about themselves yet in this era regardless of the long history of the club. They are setting up an academy in the Oxford area apprently, and that will bring through EQP's.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

The majority of LW players are English qualified & about half of those are through residency
They have about 40 squad players 7 are welsh/welsh qualified & a smattering from other countries.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Most others qualify as English through residency or a parent but have no interest in playing for England as they consider themselves Welsh.

Have you spoken to them recently? Where are you getting this from?

I don't know what you mean mate, i'm sure Paulică Ion has dreamt of playing for Wales since he was a little lad!

[gregortree]

Oxford Welsh consider themselves about as Welsh as Reading Irish believe they are Irish. My Irish friend calls the LI Reading scene 'Plastic Paddies. It is a quaint exile anachronism from the days when London was a British city, and transport for the amateur exiles around UK was difficult. Both these aspects are history. Of sentimental value but those days gone astern. Good to hear LW are setting up an academy, it shows some commitment to the future. As to fan base, Oxford is not badly placed between London & Wales, for travelling fans who may wish to go (Swindon would hav been ideal). Or for the true exiles who may play for LW. My Glaws mates & I got there in just over an hour. The crowd was ~ 3000, the majority seemed to be in Glaws shirts, so not many Londoners showed up. Quite a few curious local Oxford folks looking for something to do. It could still take root & grow in Oxford, early days yet. It would be good to see LW stay up and develop for a couple of seasons.

[maestegmafia]

London Welsh are moving back to London next season. It is where their club house has been for over a century.

It is a proud club that wishes to hold on to its history as one of the best clubs in English Club rugby history.

Great to see them Gate 10000 last weekend in the london derby

[Effervescing Elephant]

London derby, feckin' near pis@ed meself! Good one Maes!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Interestingly LW have been muttering about being include in the London double header?! Didn't realise that Quins interestingly insist that it is treated as an away fixture for them, whereas The Pests, Sarries and Irish participate in rev

[maestegmafia]

London derby, feckin' near pis@ed meself! Good one Maes!

Well if the PRL and RFu want clubs to adhere to all the rules they wish to make to keep pro rugby in england sustainable there is little chance any club that doesn't own its own 20,000 seater stadium will get forced out.

London Welsh still has its club house at old deer park. They didnt want to move, they were forced to.

[Effervescing Elephant]

You're always so serious Maes. Laugh a little, it's good for you.

[maestegmafia]

Dont worry mate been laughing a while now at this thread... The team that shouldn't be promoted, aren't one of the big boys, who'll go down in a season, lucky if they'll get a single win etc etc etc...!

Shows how little rugby some people watch.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

London Welsh are moving back to London next season. It is where their club house has been for over a century.

It is a proud club that wishes to hold on to its history as one of the best clubs in English Club rugby history.

Great to see them Gate 10000 last weekend in the london derby

They looked at options but the last I heard staying in Oxford was still favourite. Pushing it a bit to call them one of the best clubs in English history, its not like the other Jeff teams dont have the same history

I have no idea where you get the idea they are moving back to London from, unless the owner has changed his mind since saying this last week

"Our future is very much in Oxford," he said. "The way our community programme has started and the way our crowds are building have been very encouraging, and our analysis leads us to believe that it's very sustainable in Oxford.

"We were talking to Brentford but we actually don't think there's room of another Premiership club there now and it would make no sense to go back.

"With Saracens going back to Barnet and Quins pretty well tying up South West London, the only feasible place now would be somewhere like Crystal Palace where you cold serve a very strong rugby county like Kent which has no big team. But Oxford is working for us and it looks like we're already developing a decent core following."

L Irish still have their traditional clubhouse in Sunbury, which of course has never been in London. So at least by playing in Reading they are sticking close to their traditional roots.

No-one has a go at Saracens fro not picking Turks or Tigers for not picking big stripey cats. Theres still almost as many welshman in the LW first 15 as their is in Sales, and it doe still represent that community.
No doubt as regional rugby continues to go down the pan more Welshfolk will be tempted over the border for the short trip to Oxford. Of course many in the North already have Sale as their nearest top flight club.

[AlastairW]

You're always so serious Maes. Laugh a little, it's good for you.

He's always having a laugh EE. Anyone that considers themselves right about all things rugby related and is completely intractible in discussions .... on a discussions board. That's pretty funny; has to be having a laugh.

[Cyril]

To be fair, LW have been spanked quite a few times this season but, on the whole, have performed better than expected.

On another note, I can see a bit of an increase in LW's fanbase when Ospreys are wound up and their fans are looking for a new side to support. The ones that don't become Dragons, Blues or Scarlets (or Leicester?) fans may look towards Oxford.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Alastair

[Irish Londoner]

Oxford could work out to be a good location, the League One football team have an average gate of around 5,000 at best, and with the large student population looking for something to do - if they could tie up with the Oxford Uni rugby system, it could be beneficial to both, a door into pro rugby for the better players and Premiership coaching for the students. Around Oxford there are also lots of towns and schools to build bridges with.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Its a big problem for them that Quins, Richmond, London Scottish and Esher are all within pooing distance of their traditional home..and then Wasps and Lirish hoover up anything immediately West.
Oxford really does seem the obvious place to be now, especially if Irish get relegated meaning less competition for casual fans. Its just a pity the ground is a disgrace.

Fair play they may yet confound the critics and make a fist of it medium term. It would be a big pity if its at the expense of Sale who have been making big investments in facilities for developing players (alongside recruiting every coach they can find), especially as LW already saw off Newcastle and Bristol to get their Jeff place

[gregortree]

unless the owner has changed his mind since saying this last week


[quote]"Our future is very much in Oxford," he said. "The way our community programme has started and the way our crowds are building have been very encouraging, and our analysis leads us to believe that it's very sustainable in Oxford.

"We were talking to Brentford but we actually don't think there's room of another Premiership club there now and it would make no sense to go back.

"With Saracens going back to Barnet and Quins pretty well tying up South West London, the only feasible place now would be somewhere like Crystal Palace where you cold serve a very strong rugby county like Kent which has no big team. But Oxford is working for us and it looks like we're already developing a decent core following."

Note this does totally rule out Gillingham - handy for Eurostar. Kent is a great rugby county.

[HammerofThunor]

London Welsh squad

Joe Ajuwa - born Nigeria, moved to England at 11, played for England schools, played in Wales for 2 years. (NEQ/NWQ)

Tom Arscott - Born and raised in England, played for England U19 (EQ)

Adam Balding - Born and raised in England, played for England up to Saxons (EQ/NWQ)

Greg Bateman - Born and raised in England, played for England U18 (EQ)

Lee Beech - Born and raised in Wales, played for Wales up to U21 (and 7s) (NEQ/WQ)

Neil Briggs - Born in Germany and raised in England, played for England up Saxons (EQ/NWQ)

Tom Bristow - Born in hong Kong and raised in England, only represented Surray (EQ)

Adam Brown - Born and raised in Wales, played for Wales up to U20 (WQ)

Daniel Browne - Born and raised in New Zealand, no representative honours

Dan Caprice - Unknown, played for England in 7s (EQ)

Matt Corker - Born and raised in England, player for English universities (EQ)

Alex Davies - played for England up to U21 (EQ)

Ryan Davies - Born and raised in England, played for England up to U21 (EQ)

Mike Denbee - Born and raised in England, played for England counties (EQ)

Gareth Evans - only played for Devon (EQ)

Dan George - played for Wales up to U21 (WQ)

Gavin Henson - we all know (NEQ/WQ)

Michael Hills - Born and raised in England, played for England up to U21 and 7s (EQ/NWQ)

Paulica Ion - Romanian (NEQ/NWQ)

Ed Jackson - played for England up to U19 (EQ)

Seb Jewell - played for England up to U20 (EQ)

Arthur Joly - French U20

Tyson Keats - New Zealander

Matt Keyte - England U18 (EQ)

Kirill Kulemin - Russian (NEQ/NWQ)

James Lewis - Wales U20 and 7s (NEQ/WQ)

Phil McKenzie - Canada (NEQ/NWQ)

Paul Mackey - Wales U21 (WQ)

Jonathan Mills - Wales U21 (WQ)

Franck Montenella - played for France (NEQ/NWQ)

Billy Moss - England U20 (EQ)

Sonny Parker - New Zealand born and raised, played for Wales (NEQ/WQ)

Martin Purdy - Born and raised in England, played for England up to U21 (EQ)

Gordan Ross - Scotland born and raised, played for Scotland (NEQ/NWQ)

Nick Runciman - England bron, played for England up to U21 (EQ)

Nick Scott - played for England up to U19 (EQ)

Ashley Smith - played for England up to U16 (EQ)

James Tideswell - played up to England counties (EQ)

Alfie To'oala - played for Samoa (NEQ/NWQ)

Hudson Tonga'uiha - Played for Tonga (NEQ/NWQ)

Tom Voyce - England born and raised, played for England (EQ/NWQ)

Simon Whatling - played for England up to U21 (EQ)

Ed Williamson - Born and raised in England, played for England up to U19 and 7s (EQ/NWQ)

So that is

8 players that have represented Wales at some level.
20 players that have represented England at some level.
Several more players who were born and raised in England but only played up to county level.
Around 6 players that have represented or are from somewhere else.

Out about 43.

Not sure where the guys are that gained residency qualification for England but don't want to play for them (perhaps I misunderstood). The most ridiculous thing in all this is that Ajuwa has living in the UK since he was 11 years old. Because he move to Wales for two years he isn't qualificed for any of the UK sides. That is stupid.

One of the reasons I softened to London Welsh is the fact they've pretty much got an English-born/raised squad that have come through the England age grades. Very few are Welsh players, a few over-the-hill guys in Henson and Parker, a few not good enough for the regions and a few young prospects. Still keeping some welsh association through their manager and owners but basically and English club.

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