Liverpool FC Thread

[Crimey]

First topic message reminder :

Liverpool FC

Transfers in:

Fabio Borini (£11 million)
Joe Allen (£15 million)
Joe Cole (return from loan)
Oussama Assaidi (£2.4 million)
Nuri Sahin (on loan)
Samed Yesil (£1 million)

Transfers out:

Dirk Kuyt (£1 million)
Maxi Rodriguez (Free)
Fabio Aurelio (Free)
Alberto Aquilani (£7 million)
Craig Bellamy (Free)
Andy Carroll (loan)
Jay Spearing (loan)
Charlie Adam (£4 million)

[TopHat24/7]

When we got talking about it we did say that Kenny was a bit tedious at times but he was put in a no-win situation with Suarez, he either backs him and makes everyone outside of the club look down on the club or he blasts the player and possibly loses the dressing room, I felt he got hung out to dry and I personally feel he paid the ultimate price with his job, I do understand that 8th place finish isn't good enough but if you can't see how fine the lines where at times then you shouldn't be owning of a football club, that's why I feel it was more than results that got him sacked

I don't think he was in a no-win situation at all, he royally f***ed up the handling of that. Can't imagine SAF screwing it up that bad. He should have concentrated more on apologising and less on excusing (which gave the impression of neglecting racism as an issue) and could have kept the dressing room still as he wouldn't have had to lambast Suarez to do it.

KK had a terrible tenure which got more and more of a joke the worse his record got, particularly as Roy had a better record and got the sack with no time to prove himself.

I do think KK's handling of the Suarez affair contributed to his downfall though as the owners are shrewd Yank businessmen who understand the value of PR and KK was a PR disaster. 'Pool fans are easily blinded by their allegience (as are most fans of their clubs) but the owners knew, especially in the context of trying to market Liverpool abroard and replicate United's gobal branding, that excusing racism (or being seen to at least) could torpedo their efforts.

I agree with you that he could and should have handled the Suarez situation a helluva lot better, afterall that was the basis of my point about him losing his job but I do feel that he was in a difficult position, one a man out of the political game of football for so long struggled to deal with, he should have been guided better IMO, the club should have made a stance and Kenny should have then followed that stance, it seemed from the outside anyway that they left it up to him and what he did was the wrong option

I think that's a very good, even key, point. The world of football has moved on so much since Kenny's managerial hay-days in the 1980s/early 90s that I think he just couldn't cope.

[TopHat24/7]

Anyone watch the "Being Liverpool" doc on Channel 5?
What did you think of it? I quite liked the gloss of the show, and it was actually informative in parts, which was a nice surprise given it was a Fox made US TV documentary on "soccer". I was expecting something very vacuous.

I'm not a Liverpool fan, but being such a big fan of Brendan Rodgers I had to watch it.
I particularly liked that he had a portrait of himself hung in his hallway. It was subtle, and humble. Much like the man himself.

Must say Gerrard comes across as a good bloke.

Sure he is, when he's not beating people up in bars or knocking up 16 yr olds.....

Aren't 'The Gerrards' getting their own reality TV series??

Is it your mission in life to take swipes at Liverpool Football Club and everything associated or are you just that petty?

What can I say, easy target.....

Plus, especially recently, there have been a number of particular things I've taken issue with, which could be to do with any club but just happen to all be Liverpool-based. E.g. treatment of Roy Hodgson, 'King' Kenny, Suarez, over-rating of Gerrard, etc.

Everyone and everything is an easy target from an internet forum. It's just whether people decide to be constructive or just downright irritating. I've read your rubbish on all of those issues, and quite frankly and I would like to say they are typically ignorant, but I'd be giving you too much credit.

Lol and you just sound like a bitter Kophead.

Whilst I'm happy to accept my views are somewhat sheep-like as they rarely differ radically from the crowd, all because they offend you and your club doesn't make them rubbish.

It is widely and unanimously accepted that Roy was treated poorly by Liverpool and that KK was given a hundred chances more to prove himself due to his legendary status at the club despite holding a poorer record during his tenure.

Suarez again is fairly unanimously disliked and considered an unpleasant person, whether it be for biting opponents, blatant cheating or racism. And Suarez's actions and the clubs whole handling of the Evra incident is widely condemned.

Which brings me to Gerrard. Maybe here I do push it a little more, but again my opinions are those held by a lot of others not patriotically tied to LFC. He was a great player, no doubt, possibly top 10 EPL ATG, certainly top 20, but my issue is his former greatness is used to plaster the cracks of 2-3 seasons of mediocrity. Last season it was statistically shown the 'Pool performed better than him for example and I refused to back down to my views that he tries (and fails) too many Hollywood passes when we should be concentrating on simple football, esp at England level. Everyone is too quick to rave about the 1 great pass in 5 or the 1 great performance in 5 and ignores all the other crap because of who he is.

[Lumbering_Jack]

Its hard to take what Liverbenz says seriously, given he has taken to calling people 'blind' and 'idiots' for having different opinions to his own for the game on Sunday.

[Crimey]

I also think Kenny was let down by Suarez who I am sure insisted he was innocent, and I believe to this day still believes he is/was. The club and Kenny obviously followed suit with that.

[Kay Fabe]

I do think though that as soon as the whole Suarez affair turned to the whole 'that saying isn't deemed racist in my Country' then Liverpool should have nipped it in the bud, whether Luis thought it was the same is irrelevent, we're far more progressive as a Nation and for that reason Liverpool should have told him then and there it wasn't on, then came out publicly to explain their stance after it emerged that was the line of defence Suarez was going down

[liverbnz]

Its hard to take what Liverbenz says seriously, given he has taken to calling people 'blind' and 'idiots' for having different opinions to his own for the game on Sunday.

If you are going to quote other posters ensure you have it right else you are going to look really stupid. Maybe we won't be taking you seriously for here on in if your going to flat out lie.

[TopHat24/7]

I also think Kenny was let down by Suarez who I am sure insisted he was innocent, and I believe to this day still believes he is/was. The club and Kenny obviously followed suit with that.

That's where you needed a strong manager though. I'm sure Suarez think's he is/was innocent as, to him, what he said was not racist. All along he admitted what he said but disagreed that it was racist. He needed to be sat down firmly early doors and told "Look, I know you think you've done nothing wrong, but, here, what said you is wrong, nobody is going to think any worse of you just suck it up and apologise for an innocent mistake".

But that didn't happen.

[TopHat24/7]

I do think though that as soon as the whole Suarez affair turned to the whole 'that saying isn't deemed racist in my Country' then Liverpool should have nipped it in the bud, whether Luis thought it was the same is irrelevent, we're far more progressive as a Nation and for that reason Liverpool should have told him then and there it wasn't on, then came out publicly to explain their stance after it emerged that was the line of defence Suarez was going down

Exactly

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

No matter how they treated Hodgson or Kenny though, or how Kenny handled the Suarez affair, one thing's for sure they've got a cracker of a manager now.

It takes some humility to walk past a big, massive, humongous portrait of yourself hung in your hallway, and not make any reference to it whilst giving a guided tour doesn't it? He's down to earth. That's what I like about him.

[liverbnz]

Anyone watch the "Being Liverpool" doc on Channel 5?
What did you think of it? I quite liked the gloss of the show, and it was actually informative in parts, which was a nice surprise given it was a Fox made US TV documentary on "soccer". I was expecting something very vacuous.

I'm not a Liverpool fan, but being such a big fan of Brendan Rodgers I had to watch it.
I particularly liked that he had a portrait of himself hung in his hallway. It was subtle, and humble. Much like the man himself.

Must say Gerrard comes across as a good bloke.

Sure he is, when he's not beating people up in bars or knocking up 16 yr olds.....

Aren't 'The Gerrards' getting their own reality TV series??

Is it your mission in life to take swipes at Liverpool Football Club and everything associated or are you just that petty?

What can I say, easy target.....

Plus, especially recently, there have been a number of particular things I've taken issue with, which could be to do with any club but just happen to all be Liverpool-based. E.g. treatment of Roy Hodgson, 'King' Kenny, Suarez, over-rating of Gerrard, etc.

Everyone and everything is an easy target from an internet forum. It's just whether people decide to be constructive or just downright irritating. I've read your rubbish on all of those issues, and quite frankly and I would like to say they are typically ignorant, but I'd be giving you too much credit.

Lol and you just sound like a bitter Kophead.

Whilst I'm happy to accept my views are somewhat sheep-like as they rarely differ radically from the crowd, all because they offend you and your club doesn't make them rubbish.

It is widely and unanimously accepted that Roy was treated poorly by Liverpool and that KK was given a hundred chances more to prove himself due to his legendary status at the club despite holding a poorer record during his tenure.

Suarez again is fairly unanimously disliked and considered an unpleasant person, whether it be for biting opponents, blatant cheating or racism. And Suarez's actions and the clubs whole handling of the Evra incident is widely condemned.

Which brings me to Gerrard. Maybe here I do push it a little more, but again my opinions are those held by a lot of others not patriotically tied to LFC. He was a great player, no doubt, possibly top 10 EPL ATG, certainly top 20, but my issue is his former greatness is used to plaster the cracks of 2-3 seasons of mediocrity. Last season it was statistically shown the 'Pool performed better than him for example and I refused to back down to my views that he tries (and fails) too many Hollywood passes when we should be concentrating on simple football, esp at England level. Everyone is too quick to rave about the 1 great pass in 5 or the 1 great performance in 5 and ignores all the other crap because of who he is.

Nope not bitter, just wondering why you have an insistence on taking digs like a little schoolboy.

Nothing wrong with being sheep like, but lets get a bit of context instead of letting your opinion on the club dictate the debate. Confirmation-bias seems to be at large.

First off, as gaffer has already said, Roy was not wanted at Liverpool. He was appointed by an accountant that was hated by the fans for his sneaky underhand dealings towards the end of Rafa's reign and who was basically running the club to the tune of the media. Roy then compounded this by marginalising a lot of the fan-favoured players at the club (Agger, Lucas, Reina) and giving out continuous absurd interviews which denigrated his own team (agreed with Ferguson calling Torres a diver, contemplated selling Torres to United), took the credit where it wasn't due (Suarez) and shuned blame (Joe Cole) when it was. That on top of the absolutely insipid performances week after week where he would set the team up as if we were battling relegation, culminating in a 3-1 defeat @ Blackburn after which he had a pop at the fans which made his role untenable and therefore was rightly sacked from a position he shouldn't have got in the first place.

As for Kenny, "Hundred chances" Er? He had one full season. And why on earth would it surprise you that Liverpool fans will defend the biggest legend in the club's history? This is afterall the most decorated man in the English games' history so I think giving him leeway (if that's what you think Liverpool fans did/do) is completely understanable, especially after everything he has done for the club around Hillsborough. Last summer his signings were poor but we played excellent football at times and didn't really get the luck we deserved. Partly our own fault (not buying cover for Lucas, couldn't finish our dinner, stupid decisions on the field) and partly due to bad luck (multiple poor reffing decisions - http://www.debatabledecisions.com/previous-seasons , and hitting the woodwork a record amount of times).

I don't want to go into the Suarez affair again, but you seem intent on putting most of the blame on Kenny when he was only defending his player. He had little to no other choice given the statements coming from the club and HE WAS hung out to dry by the owners. They give him no support whatsoever and he had to shoulder the entire thing himself whilst manage the football club. The owners only awoke from their slumber once the sponsers' cage was rattled - the same sponsers, I might add, that tried to dictate our transfer policy.

This is while the media were doing everything in their power to condemn Suarez despite not knowing the facts, yet are unweilding in their defence of John Terry where the evidence of using racial language is much clearer. The media are effectively bending over backwards to defend this thug. Hypocrasy at it's highest. Even Hodgson, the England manager is out defending Terry, but Kenny's wrong for doing the same for Suarez? I don't think so. The club and its lawyers handled that whole affair very poorly, there's no doubt about that, but it's the double standards that wrankles.

And so what? You hate Suarez, who doesn't? Do you think Liverpool fans care? Do you care that I think Rooney is a mindless, loutish, cheating thug? Footballers on the whole are plonkers, it doesn't need repeated as a cheap shot ad infintium.

As for Gerrard, I've made my feelings clear on him a few weeks ago on this thread in a post which you (ironically) credited. I think you'll find that most Liverpool supporters have them same concerns as me with Gerrard, and it's only the tabloids and the generally cliched pundits who claim Gerrard is anything near what he was. Also, I'm not quite sure where you are getting your stats on Gerrard, but they are wrong so I'm going to assume you are making them up. I see a lot of people creating similar hyperbole about Scholes after games, but people totally ignore the fact that against most opposition that Ferguson plays him against sit back and give him all the time in the world to play his passes. Close him down and he's not even half the player he was 10 years ago.

[liverbnz]

It takes some humility to walk past a big, massive, humongous portrait of yourself hung in your hallway, and not make any reference to it whilst giving a guided tour doesn't it? He's down to earth. That's what I like about him.

[TopHat24/7]

No matter how they treated Hodgson or Kenny though, or how Kenny handled the Suarez affair, one thing's for sure they've got a cracker of a manager now.

It takes some humility to walk past a big, massive, humongous portrait of yourself hung in your hallway, and not make any reference to it whilst giving a guided tour doesn't it? He's down to earth. That's what I like about him.

Yeh, def a fan of Rodgers, hopefully he's given the time and resources he deserves/needs.

<EDIT: Not sure why this didn't post earlier...:-s>

[TopHat24/7]

Anyone watch the "Being Liverpool" doc on Channel 5?
What did you think of it? I quite liked the gloss of the show, and it was actually informative in parts, which was a nice surprise given it was a Fox made US TV documentary on "soccer". I was expecting something very vacuous.

I'm not a Liverpool fan, but being such a big fan of Brendan Rodgers I had to watch it.
I particularly liked that he had a portrait of himself hung in his hallway. It was subtle, and humble. Much like the man himself.

Must say Gerrard comes across as a good bloke.

Sure he is, when he's not beating people up in bars or knocking up 16 yr olds.....

Aren't 'The Gerrards' getting their own reality TV series??

Is it your mission in life to take swipes at Liverpool Football Club and everything associated or are you just that petty?

What can I say, easy target.....

Plus, especially recently, there have been a number of particular things I've taken issue with, which could be to do with any club but just happen to all be Liverpool-based. E.g. treatment of Roy Hodgson, 'King' Kenny, Suarez, over-rating of Gerrard, etc.

Everyone and everything is an easy target from an internet forum. It's just whether people decide to be constructive or just downright irritating. I've read your rubbish on all of those issues, and quite frankly and I would like to say they are typically ignorant, but I'd be giving you too much credit.

Lol and you just sound like a bitter Kophead.

Whilst I'm happy to accept my views are somewhat sheep-like as they rarely differ radically from the crowd, all because they offend you and your club doesn't make them rubbish.

It is widely and unanimously accepted that Roy was treated poorly by Liverpool and that KK was given a hundred chances more to prove himself due to his legendary status at the club despite holding a poorer record during his tenure.

Suarez again is fairly unanimously disliked and considered an unpleasant person, whether it be for biting opponents, blatant cheating or racism. And Suarez's actions and the clubs whole handling of the Evra incident is widely condemned.

Which brings me to Gerrard. Maybe here I do push it a little more, but again my opinions are those held by a lot of others not patriotically tied to LFC. He was a great player, no doubt, possibly top 10 EPL ATG, certainly top 20, but my issue is his former greatness is used to plaster the cracks of 2-3 seasons of mediocrity. Last season it was statistically shown the 'Pool performed better than him for example and I refused to back down to my views that he tries (and fails) too many Hollywood passes when we should be concentrating on simple football, esp at England level. Everyone is too quick to rave about the 1 great pass in 5 or the 1 great performance in 5 and ignores all the other crap because of who he is.

Nope not bitter, just wondering why you have an insistence on taking digs like a little schoolboy.

Nothing wrong with being sheep like, but lets get a bit of context instead of letting your opinion on the club dictate the debate. Confirmation-bias seems to be at large.

First off, as gaffer has already said, Roy was not wanted at Liverpool. He was appointed by an accountant that was hated by the fans for his sneaky underhand dealings towards the end of Rafa's reign and who was basically running the club to the tune of the media. Roy then compounded this by marginalising a lot of the fan-favoured players at the club (Agger, Lucas, Reina) and giving out continuous absurd interviews which denigrated his own team (agreed with Ferguson calling Torres a diver, contemplated selling Torres to United), took the credit where it wasn't due (Suarez) and shuned blame (Joe Cole) when it was. That on top of the absolutely insipid performances week after week where he would set the team up as if we were battling relegation, culminating in a 3-1 defeat @ Blackburn after which he had a pop at the fans which made his role untenable and therefore was rightly sacked from a position he shouldn't have got in the first place.

As for Kenny, "Hundred chances" Er? He had one full season. And why on earth would it surprise you that Liverpool fans will defend the biggest legend in the club's history? This is afterall the most decorated man in the English games' history so I think giving him leeway (if that's what you think Liverpool fans did/do) is completely understanable, especially after everything he has done for the club around Hillsborough. Last summer his signings were poor but we played excellent football at times and didn't really get the luck we deserved. Partly our own fault (not buying cover for Lucas, couldn't finish our dinner, stupid decisions on the field) and partly due to bad luck (multiple poor reffing decisions - http://www.debatabledecisions.com/previous-seasons , and hitting the woodwork a record amount of times).

I don't want to go into the Suarez affair again, but you seem intent on putting most of the blame on Kenny when he was only defending his player. He had little to no other choice given the statements coming from the club and HE WAS hung out to dry by the owners. They give him no support whatsoever and he had to shoulder the entire thing himself whilst manage the football club. The owners only awoke from their slumber once the sponsers' cage was rattled - the same sponsers, I might add, that tried to dictate our transfer policy.

This is while the media were doing everything in their power to condemn Suarez despite not knowing the facts, yet are unweilding in their defence of John Terry where the evidence of using racial language is much clearer. The media are effectively bending over backwards to defend this thug. Hypocrasy at it's highest. Even Hodgson, the England manager is out defending Terry, but Kenny's wrong for doing the same for Suarez? I don't think so. The club and its lawyers handled that whole affair very poorly, there's no doubt about that, but it's the double standards that wrankles.

And so what? You hate Suarez, who doesn't? Do you think Liverpool fans care? Do you care that I think Rooney is a mindless, loutish, cheating thug? Footballers on the whole are plonkers, it doesn't need repeated as a cheap shot ad infintium.

As for Gerrard, I've made my feelings clear on him a few weeks ago on this thread in a post which you (ironically) credited. I think you'll find that most Liverpool supporters have them same concerns as me with Gerrard, and it's only the tabloids and the generally cliched pundits who claim Gerrard is anything near what he was. Also, I'm not quite sure where you are getting your stats on Gerrard, but they are wrong so I'm going to assume you are making them up. I see a lot of people creating similar hyperbole about Scholes after games, but people totally ignore the fact that against most opposition that Ferguson plays him against sit back and give him all the time in the world to play his passes. Close him down and he's not even half the player he was 10 years ago.

Sounds like your even more desperate to defend than I am to attack.

PS: re the Gerrard stats, published by a respected sports journalist in a broadsheet newspaper.

[liverbnz]

Of course I'll defend the club I support, there's nothing depserate about it, it's human nature. Your insistence on attacking however is a little odd, maybe its a personal thing of yours, I don't know.

As for the Gerrard stats, nope those passing stats were never printed anywhere. But you are right that we won more points with Gerrard out of the team than in. We also won more with Andy Carroll starting than not so I'm sure you clever enough to know those stats are useless when isolated especially when you consider the amount of variables in a game of football.

[TopHat24/7]

It was in the Guardian, that's all I can remember. The point was, statistically, that other players in the team play worse when he is in it. When he has a Captain Fantastic performance this doesn't matter be it more than compensates for it, but when he doesn't the overall team suffers.

When you said 'stats' I thought this was what you were referring to.

If you meant the '1 in 5' comment then yes, that was entirely my view from the games I've seen him in not a published 'fact'.

[liverbnz]

It was in the Guardian, that's all I can remember. The point was, statistically, that other players in the team play worse when he is in it. When he has a Captain Fantastic performance this doesn't matter be it more than compensates for it, but when he doesn't the overall team suffers.

When you said 'stats' I thought this was what you were referring to.

If you meant the '1 in 5' comment then yes, that was entirely my view from the games I've seen him in not a published 'fact'.

Now your saying something entirely different. Does he make the other players play worse (statistically) or does he cause Liverpool to draw/lose more often, which is it? They may be related (and may not be) but they are not one and the same, unless you have further proof to back it up. Also, you are ignoring the opposition, were we at home or away, the rest of the players on the team when Gerrard played and many, many other variables that come into consideration when analysising that stat.

His performances have not been good for a while, give or take a few sporadic Gerrard of old displays, but if you are saying he is directly responsible for our slump (and it certainly seems that way) then it's hard to look past you just having an agenda.

And the '1 in 5' is a gross exagerration.

[TopHat24/7]

It was in the Guardian, that's all I can remember. The point was, statistically, that other players in the team play worse when he is in it. When he has a Captain Fantastic performance this doesn't matter be it more than compensates for it, but when he doesn't the overall team suffers.

When you said 'stats' I thought this was what you were referring to.

If you meant the '1 in 5' comment then yes, that was entirely my view from the games I've seen him in not a published 'fact'.

Now your saying something entirely different. Does he make the other players play worse (statistically) or does he cause Liverpool to draw/lose more often, which is it? They may be related (and may not be) but they are not one and the same, unless you have further proof to back it up. Also, you are ignoring the opposition, were we at home or away, the rest of the players on the team when Gerrard played and many, many other variables that come into consideration when analysising that stat.

His performances have not been good for a while, give or take a few sporadic Gerrard of old displays, but if you are saying he is directly responsible for our slump (and it certainly seems that way) then it's hard to look past you just having an agenda.

And the '1 in 5' is a gross exagerration.

The analysis, from memory, specifically looked at individual players' performances with/without Gerrard in the team, and showed that they suffered. The implication was that Gerrard, being such a mercurial figure, was also somewhat maverick/unpredictable. When he wasn't in the team, other players were more confident/assured of their roles and therefore performed better.

I am not saying he is directly responsible for your slump at all, you are reading into my posts what you want to fullfil your objectives. My comments re Gerrard are purely to do with my view that he is, currently, somewhat over-rated and being allowed to trade off past success/brilliance.

And 1 in 5 isn't a gross exagerration at all, 1 in 2 or 3 is probably pretty standard therefore to suggest Gerrards Hollywood passes only it home 1 in 5 is hardly an incomprehensible stretch.

[Crimey]

Then the problem is not Gerrard, the problem is the other players not being confident enough. They should learn to play their game as usual and then Gerrard would be a strength.

Against United, Gerrard had a 95% pass completion rate, granted he hasn't been hitting those kinds of numbers a lot this season, but that's still pretty good and shows he is capable of it.

[liverbnz]

It was in the Guardian, that's all I can remember. The point was, statistically, that other players in the team play worse when he is in it. When he has a Captain Fantastic performance this doesn't matter be it more than compensates for it, but when he doesn't the overall team suffers.

When you said 'stats' I thought this was what you were referring to.

If you meant the '1 in 5' comment then yes, that was entirely my view from the games I've seen him in not a published 'fact'.

Now your saying something entirely different. Does he make the other players play worse (statistically) or does he cause Liverpool to draw/lose more often, which is it? They may be related (and may not be) but they are not one and the same, unless you have further proof to back it up. Also, you are ignoring the opposition, were we at home or away, the rest of the players on the team when Gerrard played and many, many other variables that come into consideration when analysising that stat.

His performances have not been good for a while, give or take a few sporadic Gerrard of old displays, but if you are saying he is directly responsible for our slump (and it certainly seems that way) then it's hard to look past you just having an agenda.

And the '1 in 5' is a gross exagerration.

The analysis, from memory, specifically looked at individual players' performances with/without Gerrard in the team, and showed that they suffered. The implication was that Gerrard, being such a mercurial figure, was also somewhat maverick/unpredictable. When he wasn't in the team, other players were more confident/assured of their roles and therefore performed better.

I am not saying he is directly responsible for your slump at all, you are reading into my posts what you want to fullfil your objectives. My comments re Gerrard are purely to do with my view that he is, currently, somewhat over-rated and being allowed to trade off past success/brilliance.

And 1 in 5 isn't a gross exagerration at all, 1 in 2 or 3 is probably pretty standard therefore to suggest Gerrards Hollywood passes only it home 1 in 5 is hardly an incomprehensible stretch.

I see what you are getting at now. It's hard for me to comment on the article without seeing it and I couldn't locate it through google. (Who penned it?) But even so, there are still other variables to consider when analysing football. The game is not static, so stats alone are not enough. And regardless, if players are not stepping up to the plate when Gerrard is playing (and there has been an issue for the majority of Gerrard's career) that's as much their own issue as it is his. Also given he was injured for the most part of last season and only played towards the end when our PL form went out the window I'd say the sample size is probably a little selective.

And as I said before, I'm not really sure who these people are that currently overrate Gerrard. Most LFC forums I frequent have a huge worry over how Gerrard will fit into this system and whether or not he will himself realise that he can't do what he used to physically. But whoever these people are, you are just as guilty as them for seizing on any little peice of information you can to deride Gerrard, just as they seize on his '1 great pass in 5'.

[Stella]

Football and opta stats should not been seen together.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Football and opta stats should not been seen together.

Completely agree. I hate football fans who quote statistics at me. I immediately devalue their opinion. Because it's not an opinion - It's a regurgitated maths equation.

I had this argument on the board last year with people saying "Downing's crap, he's got 0 goals and 0 assists. He obviously can't cross, he hasn't set anyone up all season". When in fact I've watched him, with my own eyes and everything, and he CAN cross. I've seen him do crosses. He is a decent player on a bad run of luck and with no recognised striker in front of him. I know he's decent because I've seen him play well week in, week out for Villa. I've seen him play well for Liverpool. But his confidence will probably have been blown by people bashing him over the head with rubbish statistics all season.

[Stella]

I remember when Ian Rush played for Wrexham (I think) near the end of his career. He didn't manage to score that many goals considering he was playing at a level way below his norm. One thing he put this down to was he was making runs that his midfielders couldn't see, unlike a Molby, Houghton.

A stat man might say, 20 games - 5 goals = poor.

[liverbnz]

Stats are useful and shouldn't be ignored, but their limitations need to be considered when using them, especially in football.

As for Downing, there is most certainly a mentality issue there. Whether or not it can be solved at this stage of his career is questionable. I'm not sure Rodgers is too fond of him either. He wasn't even on the bench vs United.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

They would Stella.
And they'd also use that statistic to retrospectively devalue his achievements at Liverpool. Exactly as they have done with Downing, dismissing his performances for Boro and Villa as some sort of 5 year long fluke (or however long he was at those 2 clubs)

[Stella]

Heskey would have never played as much for England if a stat man was in charge........................wait a minute


No, seriously, he was a decent CF to play with a goalscorer like Owen.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Besides - the only statistic that matters to me is that there was 1 muhassive portrait of Brendan - Man of the People - Rodgers hung on his wall.

Not that I'm going to go on about it or anything, because like I said. He's humble. He probably wouldn't want it mentioned. It's irrelevant. I'm sure if he'd have watched the show he would have asked for that scene to be cut out. Because he's not showy like that. He's not.
Or if he had seen the scene, he'd probably try to make up for it by showing a different (much smaller) picture, of his wife's uncle or something. I mean, it might be smaller... but it'd be more important to him than the massive one of himself. No... it is. Because he didn't mention the big one of himself, but he did mention the other one, the small one of his wife's uncle. Besides that's probably the only size the football manager portrait shop do. We don't know

[TopHat24/7]

Then the problem is not Gerrard, the problem is the other players not being confident enough. They should learn to play their game as usual and then Gerrard would be a strength.

Against United, Gerrard had a 95% pass completion rate, granted he hasn't been hitting those kinds of numbers a lot this season, but that's still pretty good and shows he is capable of it.

Hence my comment that when he has one of those Captain Fantastic performances (as he did at the weekend) it doesn't matter.

[TopHat24/7]

Football and opta stats should not been seen together.

Completely agree. I hate football fans who quote statistics at me. I immediately devalue their opinion. Because it's not an opinion - It's a regurgitated maths equation.

I had this argument on the board last year with people saying "Downing's crap, he's got 0 goals and 0 assists. He obviously can't cross, he hasn't set anyone up all season". When in fact I've watched him, with my own eyes and everything, and he CAN cross. I've seen him do crosses. He is a decent player on a bad run of luck and with no recognised striker in front of him. I know he's decent because I've seen him play well week in, week out for Villa. I've seen him play well for Liverpool. But his confidence will probably have been blown by people bashing him over the head with rubbish statistics all season.

Ah, yes, I remember you, Downing's a winged wizard despite playing an entire season and achieving nothing. "Oh, but I watched him, and I thoguht he was fab, and his crosses were a Beckham-esque picture of beauty, therefore my opinion is worth soooo much more than that of people who also watched him and saw him never complete a cross...."

No recognised striker?! only the best target man striker this country has produced in a decade or so!! Deary me......

[Crimey]

If you actually look at the statistics, I think Downing created a LOT of chances, they just weren't converted. So it's not only what you can see, but the statistics back it up as well.

It's clear that the problem last year was putting away chances, not creating them, so to blame Downing misses the point entirely.

[TopHat24/7]

To me a completed cross makes the stikers head. Carroll is the best header of the ball in the English game so for Downing to somehow get through a season without one assist is unquestionably poor.

And if missing chances is the problem then Downing's statistic of no goals either is equally damning.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Yeah - the best target man in the country, who probably played less than 50% of the time (there's a statistic for you, I made it up), in a system where the ball stayed on the floor for 92% of the game (I've made that one up too. It doesn't matter, it's irrelevant)

[liverbnz]

Agger responding well to treatment and could be back for Norwich! Far removed from the medial ligament damage that was originally thought. Excellent news.

Borini could also be back in training this week.

[Crimey]

Good win, weird when the youngsters perform better than the senior side. I think that Sahin should be put into the first team now, and I'd drop Borini and replace him with any of Downing, Suso, or Assaidi.

[Soldier_Of_Fortune]

I watched the match last night and I thought we were great, played some great football and probs deserved to win by more. I thought the youngsters were quality, Wisdom, Suso, Assaidi and Yesil particulary stood out. I reckon we got a bargin in Yesil and Assaidi.

[Mat]

Was at yesterday's game, although I'm an Albion fan so not too happy about it!

Assaidi and Sahin looked class, Jones was very flappy in goal. Robinson had some trouble against Fortune. I don't rate Downing at all, Pacheco and Yesil were also good.

[liverbnz]

How did Robinson cope Mat?

[Crimey]

I've been impressed with Assaidi both times, and Sahin has quickly started to adapt after looking poor at first. I think both should start the next league game ahead of the suspended Shelvey and Borini.

There will be a temptation from Rodgers to start Wisdom now Kelly is injured, but I think he should move Johnson back to right back and Enrique into left. If Agger is still injured, Coates should start not Carragher.

What has happened to Flanagan? He must be gutted. Broke into the first team, played really well against top opposition, probably was overexposed into the first team, but now he's dropped in the pecking order behind Wisdom.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Rodgers was talking to Flanagan on that documentary (the one with the big portrait), and he told him something like "Stick to your game - you're not one of those players who can go forward, you just stay back and clean up and get rid of the ball"

Which to me translated as

"You don't play the Brendan Rodgers way pal"

[liverbnz]

Flanagan is injured Crimey.

[Crimey]

Flanagan is injured Crimey.

He is? Since when?

[Soldier_Of_Fortune]

Do be honest, although a CB by trade, I like the look of Wisdom at RB. He's strong, good in the air, good and he seems to be composed on the ball and can pass. I can see him starting against Norwich on Sat.

I thought Liverpool played well last night, barring the first 10 mins, we were the much better team and considering the average age was 24 including Carragher and Jones, there are a few players there more then capable of stepping up.

Assaidi had a great game as did Sahin, Wisdom and Yesil. Yesil looks a bargin at £1mill.

[liverbnz]

Flanagan is injured Crimey.

He is? Since when?

Picked up last week in training apparently.

http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-sport/liverpool-fc-news/2012/09/26/jon-flanagan-s-injury-add-to-liverpool-fc-s-defensive-woes-59067-31907218/

[Crimey]

Ahh fair enough, there hasn't been the opportunity to play for him then.

[Mat]

How did Robinson cope Mat?

He did alright. Couple of tough moments against Fortune but on the whole dealt with him well enough. Looked decent further up the pitch.

Downing must be up there as one of the worst footballers I've ever seen. We had our Right Back at left back after Ridgewell got injured and he did nothing against him.

Assaidi played well but he was up against a centre half whose never played right back in his career.

[Kenny]

Second episode of Being Liverpool on channel 5 tonight folks

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Look forward to this.
It's unmissable.
Like Brendan's portrait.

[Kenny]

Looking at the advert this is the one were Sterling gets his telling off

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

I still haven't seen the clip of that - but heard a lot of people talking about it.

[Kenny]

Looks quite funny

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I say Norwich 2-1 Liverpool, Holt and Snoddy for us, Suarez for you

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