Super Rugby: the Lions vs Kings fiasco

So let's have some predictions: What's going to happen? Will the Kings replace the Lions and will they do any better? or will SA field 6 teams?

And is there anyone with any insight as to what the 'reasoning' is behind the Kings inclusion? (I use the word 'reasoning' loosely, because it is quite presumptious to assume that those in SARU have any powers of reasoning at all!) My own conspiracy theory is that it was , perhaps, a trade off: the Boks can have a 'non-transformed' coach (white Afrikaans) without anyone kicking up a fuss if the Kings are included in Super Rugby, hence keeping the Watson clan quiet! I don't know though,....what do you think?

The promise of the Kings' inclusion already came in 2003.

Yet SARU has done nothing to secure a sixth Franchise for the Super Rugby tournament.

The Kings on the other hand has done nothing in 9 years to prove any justifiable reason for their inclusion.

Add to that the fact financial mismanagement meant SARU had to bail them out a few years ago and they couldn't prove where the money went this whole situation is making SARU the laughing stock of world rugby.

Problem is, even if SARU to make allowance for their inclusion in the Super Rugby tournament the sad fact is the Kings have not developed any players that would have been representative of the Eastern Cape.

So the likely hood is a franchise full of mercenaries is the most obvious which would defeat the whole object of the exercise.

Next week SARU will give finality on who will compete next year.

The Lions Chairman Kevin de Klerk has said the Lions do have "alternative" options but need an answer as soon as possible.

The Lions Franchise has been around for 100 years and will continue to survive, in my opinion this is a good time for them to revamp themselves and prepare for 2015.

The Kings on the other hand will not only lose all their matches but probably not even come close to any team.

This is a total mess in my view.

The politics of SA Rugby makes the Byzantines appear simple direct folk.

If the Lions are dropped and the Kings take their place, wouldn't most of the Lions' players who are Super Rugby caliber simply move to PE? In a weird way, the status quo is maintained (leaving out for the moment the impact on the Lions organisation). Based on this season, just another 3 win team?

What options do the Lions really have if they do get dropped? Despite comments to the contrary, could this be fatal for them?

Doc, the problem is most of the Lions players from reports I heard are contracted until ned of next season, so they can't leave.

I know the 'promise ' to the Kings was made long ago, but it was only actually announced as a fait accompli last year around the same time as the announcement of the new Bok coach, which got me thinking... but who knows. I'm pretty convinced that there is all manner of skullduggery in the back-rooms of SARU and the unions...and not much of it has to do with furthering the interests of Rugby or the players...

Doc, the problem is most of the Lions players from reports I heard are contracted until ned of next season, so they can't leave.

Biltong, in what competition would the Lions play if dropped from Super 15 and would their revenue streams allow them to pay the players on those contracts. No point keeping the players on if it's going to bankrupt you in the process.

Sam, the Kings played in the IRB nations cup a few times, that is one alternative, the Sponsors of the Lions have said they back them for next year, there is still the Vodacom Cup, the Currie Cup etc.

So there is some hope.

Maybe it would make sense to sell off some of the bigger contracts to the Kings and build up the financial backup. Start the development of a young team (the funds from the sale of the big names to fund long term contracts for the best young talent) for a few years time when they may be able to get back into Super 15.

Sam, that is the usual way of doing things, but not in SA, we have a mentality of entitlement.

The Kings have known for years now this will happen, in 8 years they have yet to win the Vodacom, which is the fourth tier of rugby in SA.

They haven't even won the Currie Cup B division, and was thumped 43-12 by Boland Cavaliers, this is our thrid tier of rugby.

Then you can add to that that they haven't developed any local players from the Eastern Cape.

You would think if they wanted to justify their inclusion they would have been good enough to at least qualify for the Premier Currie Cup division.

Currently I rate them about the 11th best team in SA, if you consider that when the Super rugby tournamnet in on and all the superrugby players are removed from their provinces, the Kings should be strong enough to win the Vodacom cup.

This is SA politics at its best.

Wow that is some serious underachieving right there. At times like this I've got to appreciate the massively convulted English League System.

With such an awful squad surely there's no chance they'll see 'promotion' up to Super 15? How would it benefit the Boks to replace a poor but developing team in the Lions with a team that is going to take a hammering every week?

No there is no benefit, but the hilarious thing about it is that apart from being a joke, you could bet your bottom dollar, the Kings will be given money by SANZAR to buy mercenaries, and that is totally countr productive to the whole reason why the Kings option was promoted.

It was supposed to be a "black player development" franchise, which I was all up for, as it would prioritise black player development, now sadly it is a tool for Cheeky Watson (Puke Watson's dad) to promote his political ambitions.

Is one of the solutions likely to be that the rest week for the super 15 team will involve them playing the Lions.

I sincerely doubt that Brendan, those rest weeks are for teams returning from their tours, and the season is already too long, the injury rate has been high this season for all the teams.

My solution, but I highly doubt it will happen is for the Cats to re emerge.

The cheetahs are losing 5 players end of the season to clubs in europe, so it will make a lot of sense for the CATS to surface again, it can provide SA with a fourth strong Franchise. And ultimately I would have loved it if the Kings could have truly been the Franchise to develop black players, I suggested this many years ago, if we could fill four strong frnachises and have a franchise focused on black talent, it would give identity to the team, supporter ususally not behind rugby would follow and support them in their millions.

But alas, what do I know?

I know they shouldn't have a game the rest week but it is money and the SARU after all.

I do think it would be good to have a team to developing black and coloured players but I can see it being political sucide. Also getting beat all the time wouln't do much either.

The kings are not a black side like they liek to portray themselves as....

on a given day they have less black or coloured players in the starting XV then most of the SR franchises existing in SA.

Its a smoke screen to get them to SR status.

do the 5 existing super rugby teams not have a contract with the SARU telling them that they have super rugby for the current competion agreement.

If they don't it seems short sighted on the part of the cheetahs and Lions as they were the two most likely to get the chop. (i doubt they do as it would have come out by now)

If they do then the SARU is being stupid.

what may seem normal practice elsewhere is not deemed normal practice here..... TIA.

Brendan the joke of it all is SARU does have a contract with the existing 5 franchises, but also put a promise in writing to the Kings, so yes, stupidity rules.

Surely then the loins will have to be given their money for breaking thier contract.

They could call the team the lion kings and send them both into exile till they are ready to return to take their rightful place as the best S15 team

Well according to SARU we will have answers this week.

Can I presume that the only reason its the Lions which are being mentioned to be replaced are because they are the weakest of the teams?

It does seem strange to remove a team with a long history to replace it with an unsuccesful team, especially if the new team will just take on some of the Lions Players anyway. It all sounds like PE wanting a SR team, rather than any sort of rugby/social changes based descion.

You are half correct, Cheeky Watson wants a Super rugby team, but for all the wrong reasons.

As S15 is the top level of Club rugby they want to be there. It does seem strange they play internationals in PE but they don't play Super rugby there. From a marketing type of view I am suprised the Stormers didn't make it their second home and rack in loads more money

Brendan PE is far from Capetown mate, probably about 800 km's

I know that I have been to PE and know they are miles apart but where is closer. They both are in the cape as far as I know (correct me if i'm wrong) so they could have been the cape stormers.

The lions and the cheetahs must be a good distance too.

It could be done and the marketing would be easy enough.

The Lions and the cheetahs makes more sense, they are halfway the distance between Capetown and PE.

To be honest when you look at a map it make most sense to just put the lions with the bulls but not going to happen. That would be alot of people to become blue bulls.

There would be no questioning any bull's player then.

How much money relistically would it take to have six compeditive teams. When you take all the players in europe they could do 6 teams well. the problem now is that we are taking all your young players that are and would make Super rugby. The guy who is coming to Munster I will be interested if he goes back as the money is a drw to go back to the SH. Also there are loads of South Africans here so it may feel like home except the sun

The problem with the lions is that they are in the middle of 3 better teams so make the most sense to can esp. as they are the worst at present

We do have more than enough players, the numbers banded about in the media and where ever you look is somewhere between 300-400 South Africans playing outside SA.

If SARU negotiates better there will be enough money as well, considering we make something like 60% of the television revenue (not sure if this includes gate moey) and only get a third of it.

the problem is you are outnumbered and that is what it comes down too. All you can do is press the buttom and leave. If they say fine have an extra team but it stays at 33.33% what does that do.

As you have said there isn't a desire to line up with Europe so that leaves ye to go it alone. or go with the Agries

For me the whole thing looks like a rerun of the Borgias,who could take lessons from the SARU.Super Rugby at least to date has been exclusively home grown
players.The Aim to give players a stepping stone from Provincial to the National side.Also until post RWC2007 Players had to be Home based to be considered for the National sides.What was once an excellent Tournament has just become an excuse for the bean counters to squeeze out more money.Depth has nothing to do with it or entitlement SA are saying 6 teams will play in a new S16
next year OR else?SANZAR say they are contracted as is till 2015.The idea of a Barbarian side for SA makes even less sense than one for AUS.Especially if the side is of a low calibre,development of players politics free should be the aim of all Nations,BUT!!!?Reality is NZ or SA could easily field another 2 or 3 sides but only at weakening both the ethos and quality of the Tournament.All Ready it is never mind the quality feel the width.Lions have been bottom SA Franchise virtually for ever IF a team of similar quality exists it could be argued they deserve a shot instead of the Lions.

So, the Lions will stay in the Super 15! The Kings have accepted R40 million compensation to not enter the competition. Sure looks like Cheeky Watson knows how to earn a lot of money for doing nothing (other than cause trouble)

Mr Fishpaste wrote:So, the Lions will stay in the Super 15! The Kings have accepted R40 million compensation to not enter the competition. Sure looks like Cheeky Watson knows how to earn a lot of money for doing nothing (other than cause trouble)

I just hope they use that money to develop home grown talent and prove themselves before 2015. If they can get promoted to Currie Cup and get a respectable number of log points I am sure not so many would complain. I do know The Kings are not the EP Kings but an amalgamation, but their teams need to perform.

Oops! Now the Kings are denying the deal and maintain they're still going to play Super Rugby in 2013....ah yes, SA sports administration at its best!

Let the circus begin!

This circus began a long time ago, its only intermission now

This Watson Clan are quite interesting. What is their deal, I mean, why do they hate South Africa so much?

Cheeky Watson was an anti-apartheid activist in the past and is now using his considerable influence to further his own ambitions, the bloke is money and power hungry.

biltong, what were White's reasons for trying to leave Puke Watson out of his Springbok team in 2007?

Morgann he wasn't good enough, at the time there were 10 loose forwards better than him.

Biltong - a bit off topic, but were the Stormers playing a hooker at 8 over the weekend? I'm guessing they are running low on options with the injuries in the back row?

Haha, yes Rory, Deon Fourie is a hooker, 5 of their first choice back rowers are injured, now with their Canadian backrower not entitled to play in the knock out rounds I think Allistair Coetzee wanted to experiment to see if Deon could handle it, Imust say he did very well on the weekend.

biltongbek wrote:Morgann he wasn't good enough, at the time there were 10 loose forwards better than him.

Ridiculous then that the SARU forced White to pick him.

Fourie has ended up at openside a number of times this season. Any news on Schalk biltong? Will he be fit for the play offs? And when is Vermeulen due back?

It was all Cheeky Watson's doing, he used his influence in the ANC to force his son into the squad, he got injured in his first test and never played for them again.

Cheeky Watson did go through a lot personally.... he was a very good player and refused to play for the boks in the 70s due to their refusal to play black/coloured players. He ended up playing for a black side for most of his career. He wasn't locked up or anything but perhaps he has been even less forgiving then many black/coloured people who were treated far worse. Errol Tobias playing for the boks in the 70s/80s made a far bigger statement through his play and selection. He firmly believes SA rugby is rotten to the core so is trying to dismantle it in any way he can.

The crazy thing is.... it is he who is the one who is now rotten. Its well documented that he tried to blackmail Jake White into picking his son Luke for the world cup 07 squad and even forced SARU to go over White's authority and select him on their own for the RWC preliminary squad... White forced a showdown and won the right to choose his own world cup squad... but it cost him his job.
Then once PDV was selected (with the backing of Watson) after PDV stopped picking Luke due to his poor form, PDVs family was threatened and someone tried to frame him in a sex scandal.... PDV in his new book states that whilst he doesn't know for sure who did it, he believes Watson was behind it.

The man has become what he fought for years to destroy.

As BB said... its all about money and power. Luke Watson went back to EP apparently selflessly and gave up great potential earnings at bath to captain his home province in 3rd rate rugby..... then you find out he went because he was offered r200,000 per month to play for them.

Thats near 200K GBP per year.... there isn't another player in SA who earns that from his club alone.... and he isn't the sort of player to draw the crowds.

I'd be surprised if there were many players in the UK earning that in fact

The EP kings will hardly make r200,000 per month so who picks up the bill.. SARU... and who finances SARU.... the other clubs.

and he's hardly played for them since... he's always been injured.

Ozzy we don't know, I read a report in the week that said he might not be back for any of the finals, the worry is he might not even be back for the rugby championship.

duane Vermeulen is als doubtfull, but Coetzee said they are more positive about him returning.

Schalk & Koster probably won't make it in time for the SF or Final.

Vermuleun should make it back in time... so a backrow of Vermuleun, Kolisi & Elstadt will be the likely trio.... given our injuries this season in the backrow I'd take that gladly.

Fourie has done very well and IMO put his hand up for bok squad selection... his loose play is nothing short of amazing.... far better than Strauss & Chilliboy.

FA, nice to see you are at least calling the Stormers (ours), so you at least identify with them.

Mate.. I'm happy to say I'm a WP man now.... although I think it may take a few years longer for me to actively support the boks... unless my boys end up as springboks I doubt it will before I leave this world!!!

That or if they get really bad and I start supporting them out of sympathy..... by all accounts however I think me leaving this world is going to be quicker (not that I have any plans to leave in the next 50yrs mind)

The green and gold will soon envelop you my friend.

Soon.