Englands 22 for the 1st Autumn test

OK, so against Fiji - My England wishlist selection.
Corbis
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Palmer
Robshaw
Armitage
Morgan
Care
Flood
Sharples
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton
Foden

Bench
Marler, T.Youngs, Botha, Tom Wood, L.Dickson, Brown, O.Farrell

Reasoning - Armitage comes in as our 7 as he needs a shot, can also cover 8. Robshaw to 6.
Care is the man in pos of 9 shirt, Ben Youngs may/may not be available. Marler and T.Youngs offer real impact off bench, T.Wood needs to be tested to see if he is back to best (full pre-season with Saints will help).
O.Farrell offers that utility back position but would prefer he doesnt come on and give Flood a full game (if he can stay fit).
Tuilagi-Joseph combo needs time to gel, it can still work.

It'll be 23 for the AI's.

No Croft or Goode? I think the bench is a touch lacking bar Youngs and Marler. I wouldn't have Armitage in the squad or near it, and I think Tom Wood will need a bit more time in the Jeff before he comes back in to the England fold. He's been out for a long time.

When is the test? Corbs is out injured for the first two months of the season.

Is it 23, OK so add in an extra prop - Hmm, tough one - I suppose the utility prop role could be PDJ, but I think SL would likely pick Stevens.

Goode could fill that utility back role - forgot about him, could pull Farrell out.
But I still think Goode is 3rd behind Foden and Brown.

Your argument for Crofts inclusion was/is the same for Tom Wood. I included Wood as there was a recent report that he was back taking part in training with Saints. Heard nothing on Croft.

Here would be my 23 for the Fiji game:

1. A Corbisiero
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. C Lawes
5. G Parling
6. T Croft
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan
9. B Youngs
10. T Flood
11. B Foden
12. B Baritt
13. M Tuilagi
14. C Ashton
15. A Goode

16. T Youngs 17. J Marler 18. H Thomas 19. T Palmer 20. J Haskell 21. D Care 22. F Burns 23. J Joseph

I would've included 36 but i'll wait to see how he goes at the start of the season. At present I think this looks like a strong team, Lawes can add some impact with Palmer off the bench. The line-out should be very good and i'd like to give a couple of the young guns a shot off the bench.

As some others have said, i'd like to see Baritt given more of a chance to attack with a FH that can actually play well and attack the line.

November 10, 2012, 2.30pm
vs Fiji.

I think it may be a little close for Corbis to be back if thats the case. Marler would have to start then.

Granted they both could need more time, but I think Croft justifies a quicker recall to the side a) because of his experience b) because he adds so much to our line-out and c) because he's already proved he has world-class potential.

I like Wood a lot and think he could be a truly awesome backrower, but he missed almost all of last season. Croft by contrast played the whole of the 6N for England.

Agree, there is nothing wrong with Barritt, I just disnt want Joseph to be dropped like dead weight.

Chjwl - your 23 looks very potent. Good impact off the bench but I would still want Armitage in there somewhere.
I'm not sure F.Burns is up to it, but would rather he is tested against Fiji than the big3.

Didn't realise Corbs would be out for that long. That's a shame. I'd go:

1. J Marler

17. M Mullan

Stevens can't play LH too well, nor TH for that matter at the moment! PDJ is a TH as is Wilson. Mullan actually played very well the second dirt-tracker's game at Potch. He was quiet-ish in the first one but really upped his work rate in the second. Deserves a shot I think.

Fair argument for both Tom's, could be too soon for both though. We will see, whichever starts the Jeff with a bang should get the nod.
Whenever these guys are back Tom Johnston wont be utalised.
When Lawes is back he will also offer that covering position of the back row.

Yea indeed, Burns needs a test and Fiji is the place for it rather than into the fire against the big 3. We need to find an attacking back-up to Flood otherwise our entire game-plan changes when we have to bring Farrell in.

These deficiencies in running a back-line have always been present in Farrell's game and were seen in the JWC of 2011 where he was displaced by George Ford. I'm sure he can work on his skills but attack and spacial awareness is also about instinct, and I don't know how much of that he has. I said it then and i'll say it now he's not got the toolkit England need at the moment.

Indeed Lawes could cover 6, and another Tom (Johnson) will take either's place I feel although i'd like to see Haskell somewhere in there.

Press release on SKY sports - Croft back end of Sept.
Crane back too for Tigers.

I also believe that Ben Youngs is out until October/December.

For the sake of it...we will say
Croft, Corbs, Wood, Crane, Youngs and Brown (im sure i heard he was out for a bit of the season) are not available due to injuries / regaining fitness....and that Fearns and Morgan have been pulling up trees to get fit...and are raring to go, i think Lancaster will go with:

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 Parling
6 Johnson
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Foden
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Goode

16 Mullan 17 Henry Thomas 18 Joseph 19 Fearns 20 Haskell 21 Farrell 22 T.Youngs 23 Launchbury

Armitage would make a fantastic impact sub. Coming on about 60 mins or so. The impact from the bench in SA was awful.

"Crane back too for Tigers."

Don't forget that Crane was hopelessly exposed as being way too slow for international rugby prior to his injury. He made Easter look very quick. Great jeff player but I'd be surprised if he ever got near an England shirt again.

Geordie has got it about right for me. Maybe Brown at FB if fit and Waldrom must feature on the bench if not starting. He gave England a lot of go-forward in SA.

I'd prefer a specialist winger, so that there can be genuine competition for places. Either Sharples or may would be better imho.

Possibly Waldrom E4E, but i think once Morgan gets a succession of games under his belt for Gloucester after a good preseason he'll be motoring...

No point doing this now (other than a bit of fun). We'll have to see about injuries. Remember Armitage was something like 5th choice full back before injuries made it his own in 2008 (before he lost it).

Remember the injured players have a free replacement so someone can be brought in if they impress.

Yes I think it's all a bit of unknown of the injury front. It'll be a shame if Youngs doesn't make it for the AI's he looked really sharp in that second test and he has the attitude as well.

I know S Armitage has won player of the T14 etc.. but he can't be selected. It undermines the whole concept of the RFU requirements and gives a green light to other young talent to quit their Jeff clubs for those in France or further afield.

I like the selection of Launchbury on the bench Geordie it would be good to see him get some game time. He was awesome in the JWC 2011.

I think had Launchbury not been injured on tour...he most definately would have got a run out in one of the tests...possibly the last one.

There's an exceptional Circumstances clause I believe. Its a stupid rule anyway - I'm not advocating a mass exodus, but I think that players can benefit from playing outside of the english rugby environment for a while. English rugby culture tends to be quite parochial and conservative.

Brown
Foden
Tuilagi
Allen
Ashton
Flood
Care
Morgan
Robshaw
Croft
Parling
Palmer
Cole
Hartley
Marler

Mullan, Youngs/Grey, Harden, Launchbury, Johnson, Dickson, Goode, Joseph (or Farrell, Joseph)

I accept your point mawhis, players can indeed gain invaluable experience from outside the league. But should they expect to be selected whilst they're there? No. Should they be selected if they remain there? No.

Let me illustrate the point with this example:

Some super bright young talent is not getting what they consider to be enough game time at their Premiership club. This could be a combination of the likes of Joe Launchbury (above), Jamie George and George Ford.

Some of England's best future talent decides to up sticks after various offers from the Top 14 and Super Rugby sides. The get starting time, play well and get selected as per normal for the national team. This starts a real trend in young/developing players moving on quickly to find starting spots.

You have a number of problems here. Firstly, you lose control of your young talent that has come through a number of RFU assisted academies and age groups.

Secondly, you encourage young players to decide what they think they need is best and not remain with some key coaches to accelerate their development.

Thirdly, your national team suffers from having a disparate group of players playing different styles with different emphasis under different referees and having little or no common understanding of one another.

I am not saying this will happen for certain purely from selecting S Armitage but this is the sort of thing the RFU has to try and prevent. Selecting Armitage says we don't take this policy seriously.

For the good of all young players it's a policy which should be upheld and is certainly not a 'stupid rule'.

Im not adverse to players going abroad, and still being available for National Duty.

I can only see playing in an new environment like the S14, or the Rabo as benefitial and enhancing a player...giving an insight to new methods and styles.

But maybe thats just me...

Obviously moving to the SH like Haskell did would make it pretty logistically unpractical.

I just don't see an exodus of young talent as particularly likely. It didn't happen before the rules were implemented.

Its unlikely that we'd be losing players to the Rabo (no offence intended) and not much of a problem if we did, as they'd still be close enough to train with England. and super rugby has rules limiting the number of foreigners coming in. Those two leagues are focused more on building up their own youngsters than poaching ours, and lack the finances to do it if they did.

The only competition with more financial whack than the English premiership is the Top 14, and they're looking more for experienced guys from the southern hemisphere than the younger talent.

The point about players coming to England with different styles, and different ideas is going to be true in this country anyway, as each club operates its own academy and brings on players in its own style.

I'm not adverse to players going abroad or elsewhere for a different experience and i've never said so.

What the RFU lacks by picking players who do so is control and investment. Simply saying I don't think it's likely isn't really addressing the point. The fact is the RFU maintains the policy for the reasons I have stated and those points stand.

I agree that some clubs have different philosophies, but the difference is small compared to the difference in the leagues such as S15. Less so the T14, but you still don't get to retain control under the EPS agreement and still risk an exodous of players. Look at Wales, they're struggling to keep their talent.

Further, whilst clubs differ in approach all the England players know and face each other week in week out which they wouldn't in the Rabo, T14 or S15.

I see what the RFU are trying to put in place and I think it's an important safe-guard to hang on to home grown talent. We're also in a different period for professional rugby, five or six years ago there wasn't anything like the amount of movement of players.

Not sure what the team will be. But i think that Waldrom, and May should get some game time. Possibly against Fiji, if not then some other time in the Ais.

I dont think that Armatage will get any game time at the moment, certanly not in the Ais, he may get a chance come the 6ns.

Regarding full back i personaly think that Foden should start and either Goode, or Brown on the bench. I dont think that Foden should be on the wing just to give Goode a start.

15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tuilagi
12. B.Twelvetrees
11. M.Benjamin
10. D.Cipriani
09. D.Care

08. J.Haskell
07. C.Robshaw (c)
06. T.Croft
05. G.Parling
04. D.Attwood
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. J.Marler

That would be the team i'd like to develop.... I'd keep Jonathan Joseph in the matchday squad along with the likes of Tom Youngs, Matt Garvey, Steffon Armitage, Ben Youngs, George Ford and Mike Brown.

Am I being thick here, or could someone explain why Haskell keeps appearing in these preferred squads, when he's in the Saxons set-up and wouldn't be called up to the EPS except in the event of injury?

Because Croft, Wood etc are injured or working their way back...so very good chance that they wont play.

I think people are taking the 'foreign based player' RULE a bit to heart. Much like 'Gatland's Law'. All both camps said is that if you're playing outside of the home country the union doesn't have as much access to the players. It was never a hard and fast rule. If players move abroad and are available for all extra time with the squad there's no reason not to select them. Most don't (especially after the Haskell issues with Stade).

GeordieFalcon wrote:Because Croft, Wood etc are injured or working their way back...so very good chance that they wont play.

Correct. It's a mash up big style. By the time the AIs come around Bomber can do as he pleases. The EPS rules are applied fast and loose. You should all be aware of this by now.

I also agree with the poster above to the extent that IF a player has all full England release dates in a contract with a club in France i cannot see a single decent reason why there should be a policy against selecting that player. Almost without exception players who have a go o/s become better players. Frankly i do not rate most of the AP coaches or their work.

A structural problem that we do have in the AP is the large number of teams. It means combinations for the national side are harder to find. This includes centre pairings which i agree in principle sounds like a good idea but we cannot shoe horn players in on that basis when there are clearly better players elsewhere.

As many others have said - a massive club season for a number of guys on the England fringe. IF they can claim starting shirts for their clubs AND then go on with it - well England will start to reap the rewards. If not then were stuck with botha, stevens, dowson, strettle, and no back up to cole or hartley - and we'll get the pantsing we will by then richly deserve at the hands of the SH sides coming this way.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Because Croft, Wood etc are injured or working their way back...so very good chance that they wont play.

Thanks, Geordie, but aren't both expected to be ready by the start of the season or not long thereafter? Plus there seems to be an assumption that even if that is not the case, Haskell will be called up and jump ahead of the remaining backrow options in the EPS? Odd

....and another thing!

Foden is not on the wing just so that Goode can get a game at 15.

He is on the wing because:

1. He has the skillset to play wing very well and none of his talents are waster there. Witness his class finishing of his try after final hooter vs South Africa T1;

2. He is not a very good kicker for a fullback;

3. Goode is worth his place at 15. Goode is class. One of those players with time on the ball. He has all the footballing skills required at 15 including kicking obviously;

4. Very importantly (particularly in the absence of any evidence of footballing ability at 12 whether it is Barrit OR Tuilagi) Goode can come into 1st receiver on phase play or as an alternative to Flood in split field phase play and bring the wide boys into the game with his passing game.

The danger for Foden is that Goode becomes indispensible to the way England play and he is edged out to the bench by a better winger.

Foden must be hoping that 36 comes into the team at 12 pronto. This will make Goode slightly less valuable/essential at 15.

15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tuilagi
12. B.Twelvetrees
11. J.May
10. T.Flood
09. D.Care

08. B.Morgan
07. C.Robshaw (c)
06. T.Croft
05. C.Lawes
04. G.Parling
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. A. Corbisiero

16)T. Youngs
17)B.Youngs/J.Simpson
18)J.Marler
19)T.Palmer
20)J.Haskell
21)A.Goode
22)J.Joseph

sirtidychris wrote:15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tuilagi
12. B.Twelvetrees
11. J.May
10. T.Flood
09. D.Care

08. B.Morgan
07. C.Robshaw (c)
06. T.Croft
05. C.Lawes
04. G.Parling
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. A. Corbisiero

16)T. Youngs
17)B.Youngs/J.Simpson
18)J.Marler
19)T.Palmer
20)J.Haskell
21)A.Goode
22)J.Joseph

Now that's a 22 man squad. Would you just have 36 covering 10 with Joseph slotting in at centre?

Goode could cover 10

Or we could just go....

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Joseph
14 May
15 Foden

and be done with it!

Without wanting to sound arrogant, we really should be beating Fiji in our own back yard, so I'd be tempted to go with a core of experienced players and throw in a couple of wild cards. Maybe have a look at the likes of Jonny May, Joe Launchbury, Graham Kitchener or


01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Geoff Parling
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Tom Croft
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Ben Morgan

09. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns

11. Jonny May/Charlie Sharples
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Aston/ Ben Foden
15. Alex Goode

Given the rest of the international schedule, you can be sure that we won’t get another chance to experiment for the foreseeable future.

16. Rob Webber
17. Alex Corbisiero (If fit)
18. Henry Thomas
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Tom Wood
21. Ben Youngs
22. George Ford
23. Ben Foden

See this is the sort of experimentation I wanted/expected in SA. Really, really hope Lancaster tries it out this Autumn, we could have a very exciting platform to work from for the 6N.

Delete

Delete

SA is a very unforgiving place to experiment though...and we still went with a pretty inexpereinced squad...

Cumbrian wrote:Without wanting to sound arrogant, we really should be beating Fiji in our own back yard, so I'd be tempted to go with a core of experienced players and throw in a couple of wild cards. Maybe have a look at the likes of Jonny May, Joe Launchbury, Graham Kitchener or


01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Geoff Parling
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Tom Croft
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Ben Morgan

09. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns

11. Jonny May/Charlie Sharples
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Aston/ Ben Foden
15. Alex Goode

Given the rest of the international schedule, you can be sure that we won’t get another chance to experiment for the foreseeable future.

Indeed Cumbrian, this is the sort of thing I was banging on about on another thread, but i'm afraid I didn't win the majority over with that one. By point being that as you say a) we're not going to want to test them starting against SA,NZ or OZ and b) If Flood or Hartley is injured/banned where's the back up? Freddie Burns or George Ford need to be brought in asap, no one wants to see Farrell starting in the AI's otherwise we're finished.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Delete

Ooh, are we doing Dr Who baddies? Erm, EXTERMINATE!