Englands 22 for the 1st Autumn test

First topic message reminder :

OK, so against Fiji - My England wishlist selection.
Corbis
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Palmer
Robshaw
Armitage
Morgan
Care
Flood
Sharples
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton
Foden

Bench
Marler, T.Youngs, Botha, Tom Wood, L.Dickson, Brown, O.Farrell

Reasoning - Armitage comes in as our 7 as he needs a shot, can also cover 8. Robshaw to 6.
Care is the man in pos of 9 shirt, Ben Youngs may/may not be available. Marler and T.Youngs offer real impact off bench, T.Wood needs to be tested to see if he is back to best (full pre-season with Saints will help).
O.Farrell offers that utility back position but would prefer he doesnt come on and give Flood a full game (if he can stay fit).
Tuilagi-Joseph combo needs time to gel, it can still work.

I also believe that Ben Youngs is out until October/December

Youngs will be fit by October just in time to join up with England so Tigers won't see him until Decemeber.

Don't forget that Crane was hopelessly exposed as being way too slow for international rugby prior to his injury. He made Easter look very quick. Great jeff player but I'd be surprised if he ever got near an England shirt again.

When was that EnglandGlory4Ever? He has two caps as a substitute and from my memory did well in what was a losing side. Carried and tackled as per usual. He's played and distinguished himself well enough in plenty of big games for Tigers with his pace being something that is repeatedly brought up with very little proof. He certainly played the attacking style well under Lancaster when he captained the Saxons.

Personally I'd go with a fairly strong team, but with a little rotation:

1.Marler
2.Webber
3.PDJ
4.Lawes
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw (c)
8.Waldrom (I'm not that much of a fan but he is in possession)
9.Care (until Youngs is fully fit because Youngs display in the 2nd test was sensational)
10.Flood
11.Foden
12.Barritt
13.Manu
14.Jospeh (only for the first test, bringing Ashton back there after)
15.Goode

Bench: Mullan, T Youngs/George (whoever is playing better at their club), Cole, Palmer, Morgan (giving Croft more rest time), Youngs (a run out off the bench just to shake the rust off), Burns (we need to bring in another 10), Lowe (covers centre and wing).

For the second test I'd bring back Hartley, Croft and Youngs into the first team as they are key in my opinion. For the Fiji test a little rest and an experiment with one or two is a good idea. 8 is still a worry.

Chjw131 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Without wanting to sound arrogant, we really should be beating Fiji in our own back yard, so I'd be tempted to go with a core of experienced players and throw in a couple of wild cards. Maybe have a look at the likes of Jonny May, Joe Launchbury, Graham Kitchener or


01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Geoff Parling
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Tom Croft
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Ben Morgan

09. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns

11. Jonny May/Charlie Sharples
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Aston/ Ben Foden
15. Alex Goode

Given the rest of the international schedule, you can be sure that we won’t get another chance to experiment for the foreseeable future.

Indeed Cumbrian, this is the sort of thing I was banging on about on another thread, but i'm afraid I didn't win the majority over with that one. By point being that as you say a) we're not going to want to test them starting against SA,NZ or OZ and b) If Flood or Hartley is injured/banned where's the back up? Freddie Burns or George Ford need to be brought in asap, no one wants to see Farrell starting in the AI's otherwise we're finished.

On the other hand, Fiji is effectively Lancaster's chance to settle the team before the much harder matches against the other SH teams. Given the importance of these games in terms of RWC seeding, I would expect him to go into Fiji with the squad he expects to play against Aus, SA and NZ, unless someone's carrying an injury that he doesn't want to risk too early.

I agree PoorFour that Lancaster will probably pick his starting team throughout, but I don't think it's such a good idea.

Perhaps as Sam says it may be better with some more experimentation from the bench, but we really seriously lack options at 2 and 10. They're key positions and need to be developed.

I take the point it's a chance to settle the first XV, but when do you actually have a test where you can experiment? In the grand scheme of things I think it's far more important to try options in at least these two key positions than look to settle an exact XV for the other 3.

Do you think Ford will get much game time early season for Tigers Sam?

Th prop aswell ch...who apart from Cole?

Perhaps as Sam says it may be better with some more experimentation from the bench, but we really seriously lack options at 2 and 10. They're key positions and need to be developed.

Hence why I slotted Webber in there for his first start and either Youngs or George in there for their first cap. Burns is on the bench for the opportunity to win his first cap as well. Team is still strong but there is the much needed giving of experience at the same time. PDJ is probably on his last chance with Cole getting a bit of a rest before the bigger games.

Do you think Ford will get much game time early season for Tigers Sam?

Chjw, maybe. I think he will be in and around the team certainly but Cockers likes backs who cover more than one position on the bench and I fear that could count against him with Bowden taking the spot amongst the replacements whilst Ford watches Flood start at 10 from the stands. That really is not ideal and preferably Ford would get experience from the bench. Ford will be given the LV Cup and I'm hoping rotated with Flood in a similar way to Cole and Castro but we'll just have to wait and see. Cockers must back Ford to play him when he did last season.

Chjw131 wrote:I take the point it's a chance to settle the first XV, but when do you actually have a test where you can experiment?

Given that the AIs determine seeding for the RWC, and the 6N don't, I would frankly rather see "experimentation" in the 2013 6N. I also don't think experimentation is that necessary. The ABs never look like they're experimenting because they have a settled team and are able to bring a couple of new players in when they need to without throwing everything up in the air.

England are a way off that, but I'd suggest that they have to prioritise getting some settled combinations, which then provides a base from which to introduce new players. Working against that is the challenge of finding a viable centre pairing, and the fact that the two senior 10s are very different players. I'm not so worried about 2 as I think that there's a depth of talent there - it will be a question of seeing who's in pole position and then giving them the chance to claim the shirt.

Indeed Geordie, TH is another issue on the horizon. Cole is our primary man and has developed his game well for a young prop.

As Sam says I think it's PDJ's last throw of the dice, he shouldn't have moved from Glaws in my opinion and hasn't noticeably progressed his game at Saints. He just doesn't seem to scrummage well enough.

Perhaps we'll see Wilson start to fulfil his much talked of potential at Bath? Outside of that it's up to another very young prop Henry Thomas to show that he deserves that bench spot. He will at least get plenty of opportunity for Sharks.

I can see much the same pattern developing for Ford from last year. Given the LV Cup and then either starting in place of Flood or not even in the 22. I know Cockers doesn't want him getting carried away with super-star ideas but this is a season that he will need those opportunities to develop some consistency.

My worry is even if Flood gets injured Cockers will want to play Bowden at 10 instead. It could really harm the lad's confidence and ambition.

Chjw131 wrote:Indeed Geordie, TH is another issue on the horizon. Cole is our primary man and has developed his game well for a young prop.

As Sam says I think it's PDJ's last throw of the dice, he shouldn't have moved from Glaws in my opinion and hasn't noticeably progressed his game at Saints. He just doesn't seem to scrummage well enough.

Perhaps we'll see Wilson start to fulfil his much talked of potential at Bath? Outside of that it's up to another very young prop Henry Thomas to show that he deserves that bench spot. He will at least get plenty of opportunity for Sharks.

We may also see Kyle Sinckler coming through at TH before the RWC. He was one of England's better players at the Junior RWC, and offers more in the loose than any tighthead has a right to, while still being a decent scrummager for his age.

Poorfour wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:I take the point it's a chance to settle the first XV, but when do you actually have a test where you can experiment?

Given that the AIs determine seeding for the RWC, and the 6N don't, I would frankly rather see "experimentation" in the 2013 6N. I also don't think experimentation is that necessary. The ABs never look like they're experimenting because they have a settled team and are able to bring a couple of new players in when they need to without throwing everything up in the air.

England are a way off that, but I'd suggest that they have to prioritise getting some settled combinations, which then provides a base from which to introduce new players. Working against that is the challenge of finding a viable centre pairing, and the fact that the two senior 10s are very different players. I'm not so worried about 2 as I think that there's a depth of talent there - it will be a question of seeing who's in pole position and then giving them the chance to claim the shirt.

Can we please stop referencing a team which has been virtually at the top of our sport for the past thirty years and has won somewhere around 80% of all their Rugby test matches since 1987.

We are not the All Blacks and we have some way to go to establish a world class team through which exciting talent can be gently introduced. I'm not talking about playing a second XV here, although if we did I would still expect them to win as no doubt would the All Blacks!

The seedings may well turn out to be important, but frankly they're not the bee all and end all. If we have aspirations to win the 2015 RWC then we need to be prepared to be the best and beat the best. We need to be number 1 in the world rankings by the time it comes around, and if we're worried that we're going to get turned over at the group stage by a team ranked below us then frankly there's no hope anyway.

10 is a crucial position as we all know, and it will dictate to a large extent how we play the game. We need a settled game plan as well as settled players, and that doesn't come from having just two Fly Halves in your senior squad both of which may just as well be playing an entirely different sport. The sooner we wake up and develop along some theoretical and philosophical lines the better!

Poorfour wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Indeed Geordie, TH is another issue on the horizon. Cole is our primary man and has developed his game well for a young prop.

As Sam says I think it's PDJ's last throw of the dice, he shouldn't have moved from Glaws in my opinion and hasn't noticeably progressed his game at Saints. He just doesn't seem to scrummage well enough.

Perhaps we'll see Wilson start to fulfil his much talked of potential at Bath? Outside of that it's up to another very young prop Henry Thomas to show that he deserves that bench spot. He will at least get plenty of opportunity for Sharks.

We may also see Kyle Sinckler coming through at TH before the RWC. He was one of England's better players at the Junior RWC, and offers more in the loose than any tighthead has a right to, while still being a decent scrummager for his age.

Indeed PoorFour, he looked one of England's best players in the JWC. The only issue is, that unlike Thomas he has two props ahead of him at Quins and young Johnston is only 25. It's going to be hard for him to get game time and stake a claim, but he does look to be a superb prospect. Another young Quin coming through of top talent!

The sooner the Geoff Parling experiment is over, the better.

My worry is even if Flood gets injured Cockers will want to play Bowden at 10 instead. It could really harm the lad's confidence and ambition.

CHJW I wouldn't bet on that. Bowden may get the nod in terms of the bench spot but with Ford getting rave reviews from Cockers last season (rare for a back) and being backed in the AP semi and final with both of Staunton and Twelvetrees watching from the sidelines he clearly has faith in the lad. Ford's contract is only a 1 year deal so he'll be wanting to see himself progressing and Cockers will want to give him reason to stay.

Slightly OT, but as an LI fan I'll be a little disappointed if Bowden spends all season warming the bench for Leicester, Irish wanted him to stay, so it would be a shame if he gave up a starting berth with us to be only used as cover for Allen.

bathmad wrote:The sooner the Geoff Parling experiment is over, the better.

+1

Parling is the new Borthwick.

Our two best second rowers are Lawes and Palmer.

This has actually been the postion for a while.

With Palmer able to call the shots and with Croft in the mix that should be enough to secure our own ball which is really all you need to be able to do.

Tom Palmer has been stuffed about and should have quite a few more caps by now.

Slightly OT, but as an LI fan I'll be a little disappointed if Bowden spends all season warming the bench for Leicester, Irish wanted him to stay, so it would be a shame if he gave up a starting berth with us to be only used as cover for Allen.

He might overtake Allen depending on his organisational skills in defence. He won't take the ten shirt off of Flood and will start the season as squad backup unless he has a really exceptional pre season. To be honest I thought it was an odd move by him, Tigers are not big spenders and he won't be on anything like big money and there's no promise of first team rugby for him. He's going to have to work his socks off to get into the team and stay there. LI had made him captain for a bit and seemed to want to build around him, should think the money was about the same as well.

Perhaps he got on with Booth and Catt but not Smith?

He signed for Leicester before Booth and Catt left.

Before we heard that they were leaving, they may have already made plans, and I think either way Smith was already there.

I could (and probably am) be completely wrong though.

How much effect do you think Gary Gold will have on his England charges...Attwood, Wilson, Fearns..and other like Nathan Catt...... it could be quite substantial...

I didnt list Mears as i dont think he can be helped

Hopefully a massive effect on Attwood and Fearns, both need similar work done on them and that's to stop fading out of games and to have more of a consistent physical presence.

yappysnap wrote:Hopefully a massive effect on Attwood and Fearns, both need similar work done on them and that's to stop fading out of games and to have more of a consistent physical presence.

Agree. I think this will be an important season for Attwood as he needs to start improving soon if he's going to make it. He had an outstanding season for Glaws in his first year 09/10, which was really his breakthrough year as he'd only had a few games for Bristol before. His last season with Glaws the following season was decidedly average, not helped by his lack of discipline. Again, I thought his first season with Bath was also pretty average, all of which has led to him being left out of the EPS despite a lack of enforcers. Gold has a good track record in developing forwards and for England's sake I hope he does with Attwood.

The only issue I have with Fearns is that he is simply not a 7, despite the likes of Dewi Morris saying otherwise! I believe he needs to be developed into an 8.

Triangulation wrote:

bathmad wrote:The sooner the Geoff Parling experiment is over, the better.

+1

Parling is the new Borthwick.

Our two best second rowers are Lawes and Palmer.

This has actually been the postion for a while.

With Palmer able to call the shots and with Croft in the mix that should be enough to secure our own ball which is really all you need to be able to do.

I would strongly suspect that if Lawes were fit SL would have started with those 2, but I don't think Parling is as bad as Borthwick Borthwick is twice the size of Parling and twice as ineffective in the loose.

On a more serious note I don't think Parling is that bad and any player that becomes a starting lock at Tigers ahead of all of the competition deserves a shot. Parling is not the future, but he needs to be in the squad until the younger players come through.

HongKongCherry wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Hopefully a massive effect on Attwood and Fearns, both need similar work done on them and that's to stop fading out of games and to have more of a consistent physical presence.

Agree. I think this will be an important season for Attwood as he needs to start improving soon if he's going to make it. He had an outstanding season for Glaws in his first year 09/10, which was really his breakthrough year as he'd only had a few games for Bristol before. His last season with Glaws the following season was decidedly average, not helped by his lack of discipline. Again, I thought his first season with Bath was also pretty average, all of which has led to him being left out of the EPS despite a lack of enforcers. Gold has a good track record in developing forwards and for England's sake I hope he does with Attwood.

The only issue I have with Fearns is that he is simply not a 7, despite the likes of Dewi Morris saying otherwise! I believe he needs to be developed into an 8.

Absolutely...ive been saying all along...he's a 6 or 8...ideally an 8...but just not a 7.

Whilst the back row selections are probably decided already...and the second rows maybe not as much..if these two can get fighting fit...raring to go able to power in for a full 80 mins it will be a big big bonus to the selection calls....Attwood in particular.

HongKongCherry wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

bathmad wrote:The sooner the Geoff Parling experiment is over, the better.

+1

Parling is the new Borthwick.

Our two best second rowers are Lawes and Palmer.

This has actually been the postion for a while.

With Palmer able to call the shots and with Croft in the mix that should be enough to secure our own ball which is really all you need to be able to do.

I would strongly suspect that if Lawes were fit SL would have started with those 2, but I don't think Parling is as bad as Borthwick Borthwick is twice the size of Parling and twice as ineffective in the loose.

On a more serious note I don't think Parling is that bad and any player that becomes a starting lock at Tigers ahead of all of the competition deserves a shot. Parling is not the future, but he needs to be in the squad until the younger players come through.

To be fair to Parling, dubious as the stats often are i read somewhere that he topped the tackling in T2....

I just want England to look like England again. I.e with some authority at forward and some devil in the backs and not like a poor man's australia trying to play league.

I think thats coming Tri.

We have used the rolling maul to some distinction recently...when was the last time we saw that!

Our breakdwon work is improving no end...and our scrummaging is improving vastly aswell...

We need to tweak the lineout...and i agree could do with a few more monsters in there...

But the pack is certainly moving forward.

The backs however...well take away the defence...and its a bit of a shambles...

Geordie if the pack tightens up it's game a bit (particularly in defence) and the backs field the same lineup for more than two games running things will come. Combining Flood with Barritt and Manu is still critical for me.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Geordie if the pack tightens up it's game a bit (particularly in defence) and the backs field the same lineup for more than two games running things will come. Combining Flood with Barritt and Manu is still critical for me.

Yes i dont want to single anyone out here but Botha and Johnson in particular have been naive in defence and have let runners through when they should not have.

The organisation around the ruck defence is not yet good enough.