The Lions One Year Out

Our friends at Whiff of Cordite have opened the discussion of the make up of next years Lions Squad with a look at potential travellers in the Forwards.

http://whiffofcordite.com/2012/07/10/lions-2013-the-forwards/

Lions 2013 – the Forwards
Put on your Power of 4 bracelets, park your xenophobia, marvel at the fact Andy Powell and Ugo Monye toured last time out, and brace yourself for cringeworthy archive footage of Iain McGeechan bawling in 2009 – it’s the Lions!

Well, it will be in a year or so anyway. Last year, we looked at the runners and riders two years out, split (as this year) into forwards and backs – we got some things right (Ben Morgan and Dan Tuohy as ones to watch) and some laughably wrong (we said Rory Best was finished and mentioned Ooooooooooohh Matt Banahan).

One year on, we’re going to put our necks on the block (a little) – we’re going to call who is on the plane, who needs to do more, and guess some potential bolters … a fool’s errand if there ever was one. With Warren Gatland as head coach (as surely he will be), we think selection policy will be similar enough to last time, with form the key watchword. McGeechan and Gatty made it clear they wanted players who were finishing the season well, and were happy to leave out players they hugly respected (Ryan Jones) in favour of those who were on top of their form (Alan Quinlan). So we figure it’s not worth trying to name a 35-man panel at this juncture. Today it’s the forwards and Thursday the backs.

Loosehead prop:

On the plane: Fresh from a top notch season with Leinster and Ireland where he emerged as a pack leader, scrumagger of note and destructive carrier, DJ Church can be pencilled in as a starter right now.

Work to do: Gethin Jenkins was favourite to start and a certainty to tour just 6 months ago, but was injured and then out-performed by Paul James in the second half of last season. If James continues his upward trajectory and Jenkins doesn’t improve, James will tour in his stead. Alex Corbisiero had a solid season for England last year – if he holds on to his shirt, he’s going.

Bolters: Prop isn’t a position where you emerge from nowhere so don’t expect a less-established name to go to Oz, but Ryan Grant rescued his career with a move to Glasgow last year, and had a good summer tour, just like Scotland. If he ousts Chunk from the national team, he has a chance.

Hooker:

On the plane: Despite what we said last year, Rory Best is going – he’s been immense for Ireland and Ulster this year. In 2009, Ross Ford toured as a token Scot – this time, he will tour by right – his offloading game for Embra in this years HEC was incredible, and his set-piece work is solid.

Work to do: Dylan Hartley has never quite convinced at the highest level – every time you think he has cracked it, he puts out a performance so bad you go back to square one. Wales have been chopping and changing at hooker for the last year – Matthew Rees has generally been first choice, but has not been playing well – if any of Huw Bennett, Richard Hibbard or Ken Owens pull out a good quality and consistent season and get the shirt for the Six Nations, they will go.

Bolters: He will shortly turn Irish, and multi-HEC winning Richardt Strauss has been a key part of Leinster’s success – although small, he is a dynamic player and looks well-tailored to be put up against the powder-puff Wallaby forwards.

Tighthead Prop:

On the plane: The best scrumagging tighthead in Lions contention is Adam Jones – add his previous Lions experience and Gatty’s trust, and he’s in. Dan Cole is a yellow card machine, but he is improving every year – he had a good tour to SA as well – he’ll make it.

Work to do: There are no Sunday tests, but Euan Murray still need to do better than last year – as it stands he is behind the technically excellent Mike Ross.

Bolters: Again, tighthead props don’t come from nowhere, so don’t expect too many surprises barring injury. Deccie Fitzpatrick stepped up to a very high level this June and didn’t look too out of place – if John Afoa or Ross get crocked, he will come into the reckoning.

Second Row:

On the Plane: Richie Gray could fall into a big hole and spend 11 months getting out and still make the tour – he’s simply fantastic and we love him unconditionally. Captain last time out, Paul O’Connell makes his province and country twice as good when he is in the team – he is a captaincy contender (Gatty likes a meaty captain).

Work to do: After what looked like a breakthrough 2010/11, Courtney Lawes had his 2011/12 ruined by injury – if he comes back near his form of the season before last, he should still make it. The move to Perpignan may have come at the wrong time for Luke Charteris – Bradley Davies and Alun Wyn Jones had good summer tours, and Ian Evans is still playing a t a high level – at least two of that quartet will be missing out. If Donnacha Ryan or Dan Tuohy can continue last years progression, both are in with a shout – more likely Ryan, given how easily he has adopted to the international stage. Geoff Parling is a decent lineout operator, but there would appear to be better options unless he makes more impact around the park.

Bolters: As far as we know, there are no Eben Etzebeth’s waiting to bust out of a reserve team anywhere, but Iain Henderson looks the real deal at Ulster – it’s more than likely too early, but Gatty hasn’t shied from picking raw and talented youngsters before (albeit mostly piano players rather than piano shifters).

Backrow:

On the Plane: This sector is ridiculously competitive, and some big names are going to miss out. As it stands, we see Sam Warburton going – you’ll need a fetcher to go up against Pocock, and Sam is also a captaincy contender. Stephen Ferris offers twitch power and strength unlike anything else in the hempisphere, and Chris Robshaw is ideal dirt-track leadership material – we think these three are in the lead right now.

Work to do: At the back of the pack, one of Jamie Heaslip, Ben Morgan and Toby Faletau is possibly going to miss out – Heaslip has the experience of SA in his favour, and has had a better year than most give him credit for, but is not firing on all cylinders. Morgan was England’s best player in the Six Nations but had a difficult SA tour, and Faletau carries more ball than anyone in the Welsh (Grand Slam) pack.

On the flanks, Sean O’Brien also carries well and he can play right across the backrow – that’s a plus on a busy tour. Looking at exclusive blindsides, Dan Lydiate will tackle until the cows come home; whereas Dave Denton can carry destrictively as well. Firmly ensconsed in the Stephen Jones Club is Tom Croft – he’s great in open field and scored spectacular tries in last years Six Nations, but he also got bumped badly by Dave Denton and dumped into touch by Paddy Wallace (Paddy Wallace!) in Ravers - he’ll need to improve. Or what about nearly-England captain Tom Wood?

If fetching is your thing, why, we can offer you a Justin Tipuric – Pro12 winner with the Ospreys and able deputy for Big Sam – or Ross Rennie, breakdown king in a HEC semi-final. And we haven’t mentioned John Barclay yet. The least you can say is there is depth!

Bolters: He may not have looked ready in New Zealand, but Peter O’Mahony has raw talent – the arrival of CJ Stander will free him to work on improving his game at 6 or 8, and you might see good results if the pressure if kept off. The best openside of the lot is probably Steffon Armitage, the Top14 POTY – a visible HEC campaign and he could make the plane.

Are there any obvious exclusions from their list?
Who would you pick as captain?
Any other bolters?

I will up date with the back choices on Thursday.

Oooh, where to start ...

OK, your questions:

Are there any obvious exclusions from their list?

Not really

Who would you pick as captain?

Has to be a nailed-on, guaranteed starter in my book and there aren't many of them - need to wait and see if POC can come back from his most recent injury to his best form

Any other bolters?

Can't think of many, possibly Tom Woods, depending on how this coming season goes.

Only one point of order - Denton is an 8 at international level and a 6 at club level - I'd expect him to be in contention for the 8 slot with the Lions, not the blindside

I'll disagree on POC on the plane straight away. Richie Gray is the only nailed on second row in my mind. I probably wouldn't consider POC a captaincy contender right now either, as the captain will be picked as a definite starter (and he won't be).

I've just seen I've written similar to As. I make the point better though

Rory Best for the Lions captaincy. You heard it here first.

- I think he is a player who is fairly sure of his place in the squad.
- Sam Warburton and Paul O'Connell have shown injury proneness
- O'Driscoll faces too much competition from Daveis, Tuilagi
- He has captained Ulster and Ireland in the past
- Chris Robsaw faces massive competition in the backrow

Risca Rev wrote:I'll disagree on POC on the plane straight away. Richie Gray is the only nailed on second row in my mind. I probably wouldn't consider POC a captaincy contender right now either, as the captain will be picked as a definite starter (and he won't be).

I've just seen I've written similar to As. I make the point better though

As usual

Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell, Ross Ford, AW Jones, Gethin Jenkins or Ryan Jones for Lions captain.

O'Driscoll all the way if fit, followed by Ford. The Welsh boys are dark horses.

Has to be someone who has toured before and knows the craic. It always is. It will be again.

Sam can't be risked as captain because he's a fetching openside so he's in direct opposition to Australias best player. Therefore not only does he have enough on his plate dealing with Pocock, if he gets outplayed then thats a big psychological edge to Australia.

Sorry Sam, maybe in 2017.

AWJ isn't a bad bet.

Rory Best will captain the Lions with a small c if he is fit and goes on tour Stag. Maybe not in the test matches but there are normally multiple Captains on a Lions Tour outside the Tour Captain

Dan Cole is a yellow card machine, but he is improving every year – he had a good tour to SA as well – he’ll make it.

1 yellow card in 84 appearences for Tigers makes him a 'yellow card machine'? He's scored 2 tries over the same period, doesn't make him a points machine (thought given the penalties he can win at the scrum...).

Tom Croft – he’s great in open field and scored spectacular tries in last years Six Nations, but he also got bumped badly by Dave Denton and dumped into touch by Paddy Wallace (Paddy Wallace!) in Ravers

To be fair that was funny. He called the switch with Alessana and pulled Wallace out of defence to make the hit lovely. Alessana never bothered and Croft was just left standing there looking like a lemon. Pretty much summed up Tigers that evening. He was brilliant in the 6N and his inclusion will depend on the make up of the backrow, his ability to scythe down free flowing backs could be a big bonus in Aus.

Any other bolters?

Going to stick my neck out on a couple here:

Tom Youngs if he can fix his lineout is an animal in contact and has the pace and hands of a back. A working lineout throw and he'll be England first choice by the 6N.
Kelly Brown the Sarries six missed most of last year but has a massive work rate and when he hits things they stay hit.

Here goes.

"A Lions team is not necessarily the fifteen best players in individual positions."

There we are. I'll be preaching an awful lot of that sentiment next year.

I think they are miles out in the second row. The pack will be athletic and mobile, but good scrummagers, as in the 97 tour. As such for as much as I think POC is brilliant and does exactly what they say he does, he doesn't fit in with the likely game plan for Australia out there. Gray and Evans are current favourites.

The Lions captain will in all likelyhood meet most of the following criteria:

a) have toured before at least once
b) experience of beating Australia
c) captained their country and/or club
d) be nigh on guaranteed to start, if such a thing is possible
e) be highly respected in the home nations and the host country

Who meets most of that?

I'd say O'Driscoll is the player ticking most of the boxes but there would be question marks over d.

If O'Driscoll is playing well enough to tour I believe he will captain.

Glas I think POC might get in dependent on who is in the backrow. If the backrow is full of lineout options who can add a bit of grunt up front then fine but if not POC's ability in the lineout may well be required. The best way to beat that Aus team is to starve it of ball and the front row options the Lions have are far better than Oz, we command the lineout then there is only the breakdown left for the Wallabies to turn to. It's their best area but POC and Gray should rough them up nicely in that department.

POC is going to need to prove his fitness before then but I can see him doing a Simon Shaw style 50/60 min job per test.

Glas a du wrote:Here goes.

"A Lions team is not necessarily the fifteen best players in individual positions."

There we are. I'll be preaching an awful lot of that sentiment next year.

I think they are miles out in the second row. The pack will be athletic and mobile, but good scrummagers, as in the 97 tour. As such for as much as I think POC is brilliant and does exactly what they say he does, he doesn't fit in with the likely game plan for Australia out there. Gray and Evans are current favourites.

Are you Warren Gatland? How are the tootsies?

Drico has also captained Ireland to beating australia in the world cup, bodes well for him. Personally I'd quite like to see AWJ getting the nod, passionate, and bloody good.

rodders wrote:The Lions captain will in all likelyhood meet most of the following criteria:

a) have toured before at least once
b) experience of beating Australia
c) captained their country and/or club
d) be nigh on guaranteed to start, if such a thing is possible
e) be highly respected in the home nations and the host country

Who meets most of that?

I'd say O'Driscoll is the player ticking most of the boxes but there would be question marks over d.

If O'Driscoll is playing well enough to tour I believe he will captain.

Jeebus, rodders, that rules out any living Welshman!!

Will Odriscol actualy be in the Lions squad for next year? (Due to his age. and form)

Poc has not been playing for a long time now due to injury. But the point is will he be fit enough for the Lions?

Sam Warburton? Hear is name alot to do with the lions. But again is he worth risking as Captain? He does seem to get injured alot in International games.

Who should be Captain? I realy dont know, lets wait and see who is the best player nearer to the time.

Hmm.. one thing that stands out for me is the comment about needing a real fetcher to combat Pocock, so he says Warburton is a cert, when both Rennie and O'Brien outplayed Warburton in that aspect of gameplay on their tours. If Warburton doesn't get back to his best, and Rennie continues to improve, Rennie must start ahead of Warburton. I don't understand why Rennie doesn't get as much praise when he is actually outplaying the best.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rodders wrote:The Lions captain will in all likelyhood meet most of the following criteria:

a) have toured before at least once
b) experience of beating Australia
c) captained their country and/or club
d) be nigh on guaranteed to start, if such a thing is possible
e) be highly respected in the home nations and the host country

Who meets most of that?

I'd say O'Driscoll is the player ticking most of the boxes but there would be question marks over d.

If O'Driscoll is playing well enough to tour I believe he will captain.

Jeebus, rodders, that rules out any living Welshman!!

They'd have to get Martin Johnson out of retirement if they were going to tour NZ then

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Hmm.. one thing that stands out for me is the comment about needing a real fetcher to combat Pocock, so he says Warburton is a cert, when both Rennie and O'Brien outplayed Warburton in that aspect of gameplay on their tours. If Warburton doesn't get back to his best, and Rennie continues to improve, Rennie must start ahead of Warburton. I don't understand why Rennie doesn't get as much praise when he is actually outplaying the best.

Sshhhhh, Rory ... under the radar!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rodders wrote:The Lions captain will in all likelyhood meet most of the following criteria:

a) have toured before at least once
b) experience of beating Australia
c) captained their country and/or club
d) be nigh on guaranteed to start, if such a thing is possible
e) be highly respected in the home nations and the host country

Who meets most of that?

I'd say O'Driscoll is the player ticking most of the boxes but there would be question marks over d.

If O'Driscoll is playing well enough to tour I believe he will captain.

Jeebus, rodders, that rules out any living Welshman!!

Kiwireddevil wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rodders wrote:The Lions captain will in all likelyhood meet most of the following criteria:

a) have toured before at least once
b) experience of beating Australia
c) captained their country and/or club
d) be nigh on guaranteed to start, if such a thing is possible
e) be highly respected in the home nations and the host country

Who meets most of that?

I'd say O'Driscoll is the player ticking most of the boxes but there would be question marks over d.

If O'Driscoll is playing well enough to tour I believe he will captain.

Jeebus, rodders, that rules out any living Welshman!!

They'd have to get Martin Johnson out of retirement if they were going to tour NZ then

N'ah we can have any of the welsh under 20s lads

ScarletSpiderman wrote:N'ah we can have any of the welsh under 20s lads

They beat Australia?

IanBru wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:N'ah we can have any of the welsh under 20s lads

They beat Australia?

I meant for the NZ tour. But thinking about it NZ will have lost to all the home nations by the time the Lions go down there (positive mental attitude and all that)

rodders wrote:Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell, Ross Ford, AW Jones, Gethin Jenkins or Ryan Jones for Lions captain.

O'Driscoll all the way if fit, followed by Ford. The Welsh boys are dark horses.

Has to be someone who has toured before and knows the craic. It always is. It will be again.

Sam can't be risked as captain because he's a fetching openside so he's in direct opposition to Australias best player. Therefore not only does he have enough on his plate dealing with Pocock, if he gets outplayed then thats a big psychological edge to Australia.

Sorry Sam, maybe in 2017.

None of those Welsh menioned are even certain test starters let alone captain material, in the case of Ryan Jones despite having a huge season just gone the back row is the most competitive area so he might miss out all together.

I'm surprised they do not mention Ryan Jones who is in far better form than Lydiate and Faletau. If he keeps up this form he is pushing for a starting berth, probably at 8 and also the captains armband (so long as he can open his big trap more often). I have gone on to mention all of those Welsh players in previous Lions threads, most of them dismissed by fans of rival countries. Tips is one that I mentioned because he is a brilliant fetcher. I would say Robshaw would have to be the one to miss out there.

The backs should be interesting calls. I'm wondering if they mention O'Driscoll. Roberts, Davies, Halfpenny, Cuthbert and North should all definitely get a mention.

Morganwg,

Disagree on Jones, I hope he tours as think he will be a great asset and tourist but he is nowhere near as good at 6 as Lydiate or 8 as Heaslip.

Morg

Jones over Lydiate??? Did you watch any of the Aus tests, Lydiate single handedly saved us from embaressment i n the first test, and had to play for the 7 and 8 positions in the other 2!!

I need to make a few points...

POC, although was a great player, isn't the guy he was 12, or 24 months ago. When you compare him to the likes of Evans, Davies, Lawes, Ryan, Tuohy, Gray and even Kelloch he is lacking in numerous areas.

I think the tight 5 are going to be key for the lions, and we are capable of feilding an unbeleiv ably strong and athletic tight 5...

Cole
Best
Jenkins
Gray
Evans

or

Jones
Ford
Healy
Davies
Lawes

Either of those fielded will more than match the Aussies in all facets.

Also I'm not sure what planet anyone is on to consider Robshaw over the class of Warburton, or form of Rennie?!

Well for a start Warburton had a crap tour where Robshaw had a good one, so I'm not sure what is wrong with people suggesting that. Also, Lydiate did not have a great tour either. He made his tackles again (like any 6) but him and the rest of your back row were blown off the park.

Rory

Again your a million miles out mate!

Warbs didn't tour well, but that's what happens when you have played something like 70 minutes of rugby this year. Tipuric should've been a starter considering how long Warburton was injured!

Robshaw did not tour well, he with most of the English pack showed 5-10 minute glimpses of decent play amongst getting bullied.

Lydiate made 3 try savers in the first test alone. He was one of the man of the match contenders. Falatau was injured after 30 minutes of rugby.
So the unfit, and untested backrow were outplayed you are right, but even unfit and rusty Warburton travels guarentee'd. Infact I'd go as far to say that if Warbs lost his leg Gatland would take him, Rennie is the best 7 in the NH at present bar none, and SOB is too versatile. Infact I'd go as far to say that Tipuric, Henry and Woods are better options too.

I don't mind SOB being too versatile when he outplays McCaw in the first two tests, so that isn't exactly a negative against him. So the reason Lydiate plays well again is because of his tackles? To put things into perspective mate, you say Warburton played badly and Lydiate played well. Here are some facts.

Excluding the third test where Warburton went off at the half hour mark therefore getting little chance to make an impact, Warburton made more tackles than Lydiate. Plus he did more around the park.

SOB being versatile isn't a negative. It's a positive. Meaning Robshaw won't travel because of Rennies form Warbs class and SOB's versatility.

warburton did more? Quantify that for me...

Mccaw is the ledgend he is not because of his effort rate, but because of his class!

As I said Lydiate made 3 trysavers in the first test, 2 decisions to fly out of the line and put his body on the line to save 5 points, and twice it came off!! = Class!

Now I'm not one of the Jon Davies following guys who loves Lydiate, he wouldn't travel on my tour because of better 6 options (Ferris, Croft, SOB) but he was the welsh back row on that tour, it's hard to win a battle your fighting alone.

Do you want the stats? First test he made at least 20 tackles, Lydiate made about 16. Second test they made the same amount at 15 or something. I might have mixed the games up, but the stats are around those figures. In one of the games Warburton made a fantastic break, which is more than I have seen Lydiate do with ball in hand his entire career. Plus he still made a few turnovers, even if it was much less than usual.

Lydiate may have made two good tackles, but he was still outplayed by Higginbotham in that first test alone.

Stats? I hope your kidding. Unless your willing to review each tackle, determine what type of tackle was made, how aggressive it was, what the outcome of the tackle was, and was it a sole tackle, on a back or forward, was it assisted, was it an assist, was it in the tight or loose, and how did it result?

Higginbtham was regarded as having a very good game, but on rewatch he looks very good on front foot ball, Aus tight five were dominant over the Welsh, and therefore the Aus back row had more chances to carry, and a better platform to attack from.

Infact if we talk statistics go and see tacklers beaten, I beleive I read that Phillips beat 5 defender to Genias 3. Does this mean Phillips was the better SH?

No, but Phillips is known for his physicality and ability to break tackles, where Genia is known for his sniping darts. They are also scrum halves, so breaking tackles isn't that big a deal. Lydiate is known for his tackles, hence why I use that when comparing him to other options. Often he isn't actually the best or most effective tackler, nor does he offer as much as other options.

Higginbotham may look better on the front foot, but Wales have been on the front foot plenty and Lydiate doesn't do an awful lot in those situations. Great defender, there is absolutely no denying that, but in attack what does he offer? Support at the breakdown? What back row/forward doesn't offer that.

Genias broken tackle and try was a pretty big deal in that game!

He is almost always the most effective tackler, you can attribute almost half of Warburtons steals to Lydiates technique on the tackle. He hits low, hard and drops every player dead without giving up the gameline.

He does offer little going forward, and thats why he isn't my choice for a lioins tour. I'd also argue his support play at the breakdown is poor, Pocock got in ahead of him a number of times, but IMO that is a massive weakness in the NH in general!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rory

Again your a million miles out mate!

Warbs didn't tour well, but that's what happens when you have played something like 70 minutes of rugby this year. Tipuric should've been a starter considering how long Warburton was injured!

Robshaw did not tour well, he with most of the English pack showed 5-10 minute glimpses of decent play amongst getting bullied.

Lydiate made 3 try savers in the first test alone. He was one of the man of the match contenders. Falatau was injured after 30 minutes of rugby.
So the unfit, and untested backrow were outplayed you are right, but even unfit and rusty Warburton travels guarentee'd. Infact I'd go as far to say that if Warbs lost his leg Gatland would take him, Rennie is the best 7 in the NH at present bar none, and SOB is too versatile. Infact I'd go as far to say that Tipuric, Henry and Woods are better options too.

Robshaw didn't tour that well (neither did Warbs) but neither did he have a tour resembling the one you have described there- he had, in my own and several others', opinion(s) a fantastic first game against SA where he dominated the breakdown and made his usual tackling contribution. He had a very poor entire match though trying too hard to single handedly deal with SA's physicality in the second test, with his worst stats internationally, though he did have a broken thumb and that seems to be a fair excuse for the likes of Toby F. He didn't play test 3. Not a great tour but the opposite if what was described

thebluesmancometh wrote:Genias broken tackle and try was a pretty big deal in that game!

He is almost always the most effective tackler, you can attribute almost half of Warburtons steals to Lydiates technique on the tackle. He hits low, hard and drops every player dead without giving up the gameline.

He does offer little going forward, and thats why he isn't my choice for a lioins tour. I'd also argue his support play at the breakdown is poor, Pocock got in ahead of him a number of times, but IMO that is a massive weakness in the NH in general!!!

That was his clean breaks and little darts, not carries through heavy traffic (like Phillips can offer). I should have clarified that though.

Right, I will watch Warburton's RWC highlight reel where he makes a ton of turnovers and see how many of them involve Lydiate. However, the strengths of Lydiate always confuse me. The two strengths of his (I am always told) are his tackling technique and the fact he apparently allows his 7 to play well and supports him. I have to ask, what decent 6s in world rugby don't do this?

Chequered

Your Lions 7 options if you will, lets say 3 players.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
POC, although was a great player, isn't the guy he was 12, or 24 months ago. When you compare him to the likes of Evans, Davies, Lawes, Ryan, Tuohy, Gray and even Kelloch he is lacking in numerous areas.

POC is superb at the breakdown - and he has been back to his best up to his injury against France this year.

As for Grey, think he is a bit nieve/raw yet. Tries to do too much maybe. D Ryan stole a couple of the Scottish lineouts in the 6Ns.

Sin é wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
POC, although was a great player, isn't the guy he was 12, or 24 months ago. When you compare him to the likes of Evans, Davies, Lawes, Ryan, Tuohy, Gray and even Kelloch he is lacking in numerous areas.

POC is superb at the breakdown - and he has been back to his best up to his injury against France this year.

I concur.

Rory

I wouldn't say his ability to allow his 7 to play free, thats a bit of a cop out IMO. It's one of those phrases thats thrown around on here that doesn't actually mean anything.

Lydiates defences duties are very good, his tackle technique is extremely effective, and his discipline and organisation in the defencive line is good.

IMO he has quite a few weaknesses, decision making at the breakdown, both in att and def, his strength compared to a number of 6 options, and his carrying (although I have seen him carry for the dragons and he can be very destructive)

Where Lydiate shines is when the going get's tough, his speed into contact and then off the deck is incredible, even after 60 minutes.

Lydiate IMO highlights the problem with NH breakdown play.

Exactly it is a cop out, but so many people have said that to me on these forums. Either that or they tell me I just don't understand how the welsh back row works.

I'd rather do a back row selection of 8 players but if I did 7s:

1) Rennie
2) Warburton
3) one of Tipuric, Robshaw or Wood depending on form

And I see Robshaw more as a 6/7 utility anyway

But my point wasn't that Robshaw was more likely to tour than Warburton but rather that I felt his tour was comparable, if not (though I think) better than Warburton's and that I didn't like what seemed to me to be a demonstrably incorrect assessment of Robshaw's tour. If we are saying who is more likely to tour or play for the Lions, it's certainly Warburton, but that wasn't the issue

Sin

POC is good at the breakdown, but I disagree he was at his best this year!

I see your points regarding Gray, he is trying to score from 50 yards out, he screams of juniors who mature earlier than the others and can run in tries from everywhere, but when with a very talented lions squad I think that'll be very effective. He will need someone alongside him to control the lineouts too.

Chequered

Youve stumbled into a convo in which we were discussing who would be more likely to tour.

I would list my 7's as

1) Rennie
2) Warburton
3) SOB

I then see Tipuric, Woods, and Henry as better options than Robshaw.

Rory I agree mate, when I hear those things I chuckle a little, as they tend to just regurgatate comments they see, and struggle to actually quantify Lydiates performances.

I think he's a good player, and his style of play does compliment a fetcher, and a supporting 8, 3 dynamic players who aren't destructive but technically sound. But there are far better 6's around!

Just watching Warburton's highlight reel like I said I would (from the RWC) and while Faletau and Charteris have featured prominently, Lydiate hasn't made any tackle that led to a Warburton turnover. This highlight reel shows all of his turnovers from the RWC. In fact the only thing it does show is a missed tackle by Lydiate on Murray..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0eGPWJ-x0

thebluesmancometh wrote:Sin

POC is good at the breakdown, but I disagree he was at his best this year!

bluesman what games have you been watching? POC has played the best rugby of his career between last May(2011) and his last injury. Hes been fitter and stronger than I've ever seen him. Hes never been as good as he has this season.

Well there is no denying he is a very effective tackler, so why can't he add more to his game? He is 18 stone and 6 foot 4, you think he would be a pretty hard guy to stop in contact, but he doesn't really ever make an impact with ball in hand.