The Lions One Year Out

First topic message reminder :

Our friends at Whiff of Cordite have opened the discussion of the make up of next years Lions Squad with a look at potential travellers in the Forwards.

http://whiffofcordite.com/2012/07/10/lions-2013-the-forwards/

Lions 2013 – the Forwards
Put on your Power of 4 bracelets, park your xenophobia, marvel at the fact Andy Powell and Ugo Monye toured last time out, and brace yourself for cringeworthy archive footage of Iain McGeechan bawling in 2009 – it’s the Lions!

Well, it will be in a year or so anyway. Last year, we looked at the runners and riders two years out, split (as this year) into forwards and backs – we got some things right (Ben Morgan and Dan Tuohy as ones to watch) and some laughably wrong (we said Rory Best was finished and mentioned Ooooooooooohh Matt Banahan).

One year on, we’re going to put our necks on the block (a little) – we’re going to call who is on the plane, who needs to do more, and guess some potential bolters … a fool’s errand if there ever was one. With Warren Gatland as head coach (as surely he will be), we think selection policy will be similar enough to last time, with form the key watchword. McGeechan and Gatty made it clear they wanted players who were finishing the season well, and were happy to leave out players they hugly respected (Ryan Jones) in favour of those who were on top of their form (Alan Quinlan). So we figure it’s not worth trying to name a 35-man panel at this juncture. Today it’s the forwards and Thursday the backs.

Loosehead prop:

On the plane: Fresh from a top notch season with Leinster and Ireland where he emerged as a pack leader, scrumagger of note and destructive carrier, DJ Church can be pencilled in as a starter right now.

Work to do: Gethin Jenkins was favourite to start and a certainty to tour just 6 months ago, but was injured and then out-performed by Paul James in the second half of last season. If James continues his upward trajectory and Jenkins doesn’t improve, James will tour in his stead. Alex Corbisiero had a solid season for England last year – if he holds on to his shirt, he’s going.

Bolters: Prop isn’t a position where you emerge from nowhere so don’t expect a less-established name to go to Oz, but Ryan Grant rescued his career with a move to Glasgow last year, and had a good summer tour, just like Scotland. If he ousts Chunk from the national team, he has a chance.

Hooker:

On the plane: Despite what we said last year, Rory Best is going – he’s been immense for Ireland and Ulster this year. In 2009, Ross Ford toured as a token Scot – this time, he will tour by right – his offloading game for Embra in this years HEC was incredible, and his set-piece work is solid.

Work to do: Dylan Hartley has never quite convinced at the highest level – every time you think he has cracked it, he puts out a performance so bad you go back to square one. Wales have been chopping and changing at hooker for the last year – Matthew Rees has generally been first choice, but has not been playing well – if any of Huw Bennett, Richard Hibbard or Ken Owens pull out a good quality and consistent season and get the shirt for the Six Nations, they will go.

Bolters: He will shortly turn Irish, and multi-HEC winning Richardt Strauss has been a key part of Leinster’s success – although small, he is a dynamic player and looks well-tailored to be put up against the powder-puff Wallaby forwards.

Tighthead Prop:

On the plane: The best scrumagging tighthead in Lions contention is Adam Jones – add his previous Lions experience and Gatty’s trust, and he’s in. Dan Cole is a yellow card machine, but he is improving every year – he had a good tour to SA as well – he’ll make it.

Work to do: There are no Sunday tests, but Euan Murray still need to do better than last year – as it stands he is behind the technically excellent Mike Ross.

Bolters: Again, tighthead props don’t come from nowhere, so don’t expect too many surprises barring injury. Deccie Fitzpatrick stepped up to a very high level this June and didn’t look too out of place – if John Afoa or Ross get crocked, he will come into the reckoning.

Second Row:

On the Plane: Richie Gray could fall into a big hole and spend 11 months getting out and still make the tour – he’s simply fantastic and we love him unconditionally. Captain last time out, Paul O’Connell makes his province and country twice as good when he is in the team – he is a captaincy contender (Gatty likes a meaty captain).

Work to do: After what looked like a breakthrough 2010/11, Courtney Lawes had his 2011/12 ruined by injury – if he comes back near his form of the season before last, he should still make it. The move to Perpignan may have come at the wrong time for Luke Charteris – Bradley Davies and Alun Wyn Jones had good summer tours, and Ian Evans is still playing a t a high level – at least two of that quartet will be missing out. If Donnacha Ryan or Dan Tuohy can continue last years progression, both are in with a shout – more likely Ryan, given how easily he has adopted to the international stage. Geoff Parling is a decent lineout operator, but there would appear to be better options unless he makes more impact around the park.

Bolters: As far as we know, there are no Eben Etzebeth’s waiting to bust out of a reserve team anywhere, but Iain Henderson looks the real deal at Ulster – it’s more than likely too early, but Gatty hasn’t shied from picking raw and talented youngsters before (albeit mostly piano players rather than piano shifters).

Backrow:

On the Plane: This sector is ridiculously competitive, and some big names are going to miss out. As it stands, we see Sam Warburton going – you’ll need a fetcher to go up against Pocock, and Sam is also a captaincy contender. Stephen Ferris offers twitch power and strength unlike anything else in the hempisphere, and Chris Robshaw is ideal dirt-track leadership material – we think these three are in the lead right now.

Work to do: At the back of the pack, one of Jamie Heaslip, Ben Morgan and Toby Faletau is possibly going to miss out – Heaslip has the experience of SA in his favour, and has had a better year than most give him credit for, but is not firing on all cylinders. Morgan was England’s best player in the Six Nations but had a difficult SA tour, and Faletau carries more ball than anyone in the Welsh (Grand Slam) pack.

On the flanks, Sean O’Brien also carries well and he can play right across the backrow – that’s a plus on a busy tour. Looking at exclusive blindsides, Dan Lydiate will tackle until the cows come home; whereas Dave Denton can carry destrictively as well. Firmly ensconsed in the Stephen Jones Club is Tom Croft – he’s great in open field and scored spectacular tries in last years Six Nations, but he also got bumped badly by Dave Denton and dumped into touch by Paddy Wallace (Paddy Wallace!) in Ravers - he’ll need to improve. Or what about nearly-England captain Tom Wood?

If fetching is your thing, why, we can offer you a Justin Tipuric – Pro12 winner with the Ospreys and able deputy for Big Sam – or Ross Rennie, breakdown king in a HEC semi-final. And we haven’t mentioned John Barclay yet. The least you can say is there is depth!

Bolters: He may not have looked ready in New Zealand, but Peter O’Mahony has raw talent – the arrival of CJ Stander will free him to work on improving his game at 6 or 8, and you might see good results if the pressure if kept off. The best openside of the lot is probably Steffon Armitage, the Top14 POTY – a visible HEC campaign and he could make the plane.

Are there any obvious exclusions from their list?
Who would you pick as captain?
Any other bolters?

I will up date with the back choices on Thursday.

rodders wrote:would anyone else take Jonny Wilkinson as 2nd or 3rd fly half?

I would 100%. He's in very good form for Toulon and there are question marks over Sexton and Priestlands, the outstanding no 10 candiates, goal kicking at this level... and Toby Floods too.

That leaves only Halfpenny as the proven test kicker and he isn't guaranteed to start either.

ROG and Stephen Jones are shot at this level and Farrell isn't very good so Wilkinson is a serious dark horse to tour for me.

Or Greig Laidlaw playing at 9?

I don't think he'd tour, as far as Wilko is concerned his International career is over, and he looks all the better for it.

HERSH wrote:I don't think he'd tour, as far as Wilko is concerned his International career is over, and he looks all the better for it.

There must be a reasonable chance that Wilkinson's club place will come under pressure from Michalak who's been on fire at 10 for the Sharks and joins RCT after S15

More chance of Henson playing backup No10 for the Lions than Wilko.

Sin é wrote:
Heislip said in an interview that the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (at that time he had got capped, won a GS and 2 Heineken Cups). BOD & ROG were interviewed at the same time and asked the same question - both said getting capped and winning the GS.

Whats that got to do with anything? ROG hasn't had the best of experiences on Lions tours (understatement) so I doubt that he would see them as career hilights.

BOD has said how much he enjoyed being on the 2009 tour but like a lot of people didn't enjoy the 2001 and (obviously for him) 2005 tours.

BOD being BOD won't be interested in just going on another tour but being a test series winner, he's said numerous times thats one of his biggest regrets and I'd imagine a major reason why he's still playing - To win a test series.

Heaslip came of age as a test no 8 on the 2009 tour so no doubt its a career hilight for him.

HERSH wrote:I don't think he'd tour, as far as Wilko is concerned his International career is over, and he looks all the better for it.

His test career is over because he knows England are building to a RWC and he's not part of that. A lions tour is different, its a one off.

Fiver says he tours....

rodders wrote:would anyone else take Jonny Wilkinson as 2nd or 3rd fly half?

I would 100%. He's in very good form for Toulon and there are question marks over Sexton and Priestlands, the outstanding no 10 candiates, goal kicking at this level... and Toby Floods too.

That leaves only Halfpenny as the proven test kicker and he isn't guaranteed to start either.

ROG and Stephen Jones are shot at this level and Farrell isn't very good so Wilkinson is a serious dark horse to tour for me.

Wilkinson could also be shot at international level - he was at the world cup the last time he played there.

I wouldn't rule out Toby Flood, George Ford or maybe Danny Cipriani - depending on how they go next season. Someone like Ian Madigan could also make it a la Keith Earls last time.

rodders wrote:

HERSH wrote:I don't think he'd tour, as far as Wilko is concerned his International career is over, and he looks all the better for it.

His test career is over because he knows England are building to a RWC and he's not part of that. A lions tour is different, its a one off.

Fiver says he tours....

If Toulon are in the playoffs for the Top 14, he won't. Hines had to leave Perp. to go on the last tour as they wouldn't release him in time. Thats going to be a problem for any players based in France if they are in the playoffs.

Henson will tour if he is given a run at 10 for the London Taffs.

I,ve just read what guy,s on here are saying about the stats on the Welsh tour did you not see the break down of the tour Lydiate was by a mile the top tackler as was published in the paper and though i,m not welsh i like Warberton but his stats was poor .and it was said Lydiate had to cover for him.You cannot be doing the job of 6 and 7 at the break down and be expected to be carrying a lot of ball as well .As was put on here Lydiate was named in the World 15 last month in Rugby World based on his performancies so not bad .Will he go on the Lions tour i would say yes will he be first choice don,t know about that .And as i said before i,m not Welsh nor Irish so i,m not getting invovled in that one as it went on for weeks last time on here who was best .This is based on what facts i have read but also like your good selves what i have observed wacthing the games

Sexton, Priestland and Flood/Ford/ Cipriani?

Nope I think there are too many question marks there. Sexton has shown he can perform on the big stage but he's blown hot and cold as has Flood. I'm not sure Priestland has the cahones when the chips are down at this level but paradoxically hes too good to leave out.

Wilkinson is a man you can count on and Australia is a happy place for him.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Heislip said in an interview that the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (at that time he had got capped, won a GS and 2 Heineken Cups). BOD & ROG were interviewed at the same time and asked the same question - both said getting capped and winning the GS.

Whats that got to do with anything? ROG hasn't had the best of experiences on Lions tours (understatement) so I doubt that he would see them as career hilights.

BOD has said how much he enjoyed being on the 2009 tour but like a lot of people didn't enjoy the 2001 and (obviously for him) 2005 tours.

BOD being BOD won't be interested in just going on another tour but being a test series winner, he's said numerous times thats one of his biggest regrets and I'd imagine a major reason why he's still playing - To win a test series.

Heaslip came of age as a test no 8 on the 2009 tour so no doubt its a career hilight for him.

If BOD or ROG were totally into themselves they would have said winning HCups, BOD captaining his country (rather than getting capped), ROG nominated best player in the 15 years of the HCup, etc. etc.

Crickey, if they won the Lions series, maybe, but even Keith Wood (who has won a Lions series), captained Ireland and was a World Player of the Year said the biggest highlight of his career was getting capped for Ireland.

HERSH wrote:Henson will tour if he is given a run at 10 for the London Taffs.

No he won't - too much trouble on a tour like this.

rodders wrote:Sexton, Priestland and Flood/Ford/ Cipriani?

Nope I think there are too many question marks there. Sexton has shown he can perform on the big stage but he's blown hot and cold as has Flood. I'm not sure Priestland has the cahones when the chips are down at this level but paradoxically hes too good to leave out.

Wilkinson is a man you can count on and Australia is a happy place for him.

Don't think Wilko was far behind Sexton in the poor kicking stakes at the world cup (Ballgate?)

I think you confusing the old Ice Cube Gav with the NEW London Welsh Gav,

Sin é wrote:
If BOD or ROG were totally into themselves they would have said winning HCups

And who are you to speak for BOD and ROG? How many Lions tours have you been on and HEC cups have you won?

Its not a coincidence that BOD signed a contract until 2013. This lions tour is the last big box to tick for him, especially after not winning a test against NZ.

You can twist things however much you want, every player in Britain and Ireland wants to be on this tour especially so for BOD and POC who won't get another chance on the highest stage.

irnbrew wrote: I,ve just read what guy,s on here are saying about the stats on the Welsh tour did you not see the break down of the tour Lydiate was by a mile the top tackler as was published in the paper and though i,m not welsh i like Warberton but his stats was poor .and it was said Lydiate had to cover for him.You cannot be doing the job of 6 and 7 at the break down and be expected to be carrying a lot of ball as well .As was put on here Lydiate was named in the World 15 last month in Rugby World based on his performancies so not bad .Will he go on the Lions tour i would say yes will he be first choice don,t know about that .And as i said before i,m not Welsh nor Irish so i,m not getting invovled in that one as it went on for weeks last time on here who was best .This is based on what facts i have read but also like your good selves what i have observed wacthing the games

Just noticed that Scotland only won 54% of their own lineout throws in the game they won against Australia recently.
Australia won 100% of their own.

rodders wrote:

HERSH wrote:I don't think he'd tour, as far as Wilko is concerned his International career is over, and he looks all the better for it.

His test career is over because he knows England are building to a RWC and he's not part of that. A lions tour is different, its a one off.

Fiver says he tours....

rodders, I'll take that

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rodders wrote:would anyone else take Jonny Wilkinson as 2nd or 3rd fly half?

I would 100%. He's in very good form for Toulon and there are question marks over Sexton and Priestlands, the outstanding no 10 candiates, goal kicking at this level... and Toby Floods too.

That leaves only Halfpenny as the proven test kicker and he isn't guaranteed to start either.

ROG and Stephen Jones are shot at this level and Farrell isn't very good so Wilkinson is a serious dark horse to tour for me.

Or Greig Laidlaw playing at 9?

I would have Laidlaw in my squad as 3rd Fly-half ahead of Priestland. He would also be very valuable as cover for scrum-half if anyone got injured.

HERSH wrote:Henson will tour if he is given a run at 10 for the London Taffs.

A says he won't, even if he gets a run for OW

rodders wrote:Wilkinson is a man you can count on and Australia is a happy place for him.

Nine years ago it was - ten by the time the Lions tour. If he's playing well then he should be considered, but I can't see him being called up, and certainly not because of 2003.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
If BOD or ROG were totally into themselves they would have said winning HCups

And who are you to speak for BOD and ROG? How many Lions tours have you been on and HEC cups have you won?

Its not a coincidence that BOD signed a contract until 2013. This lions tour is the last big box to tick for him, especially after not winning a test against NZ.

You can twist things however much you want, every player in Britain and Ireland wants to be on this tour especially so for BOD and POC who won't get another chance on the highest stage.

I'm not speaking for them. They spoke for themselves. And my observations are that BOD & ROG (who have had very good careers), put as the hightlight of their career, various things they did for Ireland.

BOD had a much better tour to SA than Heislip (and also had a personally good tour to aus - way better than what Heislip did), and he still preferred winning a GS with his Irish mates. Crikey, can you imagine what Heislip would be like if he was made captain.

Put it this way, not winning a GS would be more of a negative to BOD than not winning a Lions Test series.

Sin é wrote:
Crickey, if they won the Lions series, maybe, but even Keith Wood (who has won a Lions series), captained Ireland and was a World Player of the Year said the biggest highlight of his career was getting capped for Ireland.

http://twf.com.au/showthread.php?t=18939

MH: You had a long and distinguished career in the game, what would you say are your highlights?

KW: Well, playing for the Lions was phenomenal; winning in '97 in South Africa was brilliant. Even the tour in 2001, even though we lost the series, was an incredible experience.

http://www.sport.co.uk/features/Rugby_Union/1396/Sportcouk_meetsKeith_Wood.aspx

On the international stage you were also a key feature of the British and Irish Lions tours in 1997 in South Africa and in 2001 in Australia. The highlight has to be that unbreakable defence late in the second test of 1997 where you held off the Boks to clinch an 18-15 victory and seal the series win in Durban.

Yeah I’m glad you remembered the score. Great victory, great game, great tour. The Lions are so special on so many levels. I remember in the last two minutes I collided with their replacement second-row Fritz van Heerden. I tried to pull my leg out of the way and tore my groin. I played on for the last minute or two and you just can’t do anything. I tried to go off but we just didn’t seem to have time so when Neil Jenkins kicked it out on the full for the game to be over and we’d won everybody else was jumping all over the place. I was delighted but I just couldn’t walk. I remember our lock Jeremy Davidson was saying “come on smile Keith, don’t be so grumpy” and I just said “I can’t smile”.

I'd say Wood sees the Lions as a career hilight.

Sin E and Rodders please move on to the issue of the OP. Keep the petty arguments to the Ireland threads where others can give you a wide berth.

Sorry Rava.

Gatland loves Henson, if Henson stays fit and plays well for Oxford Taffs he'll be in contention for the Lions as he can cover 10, 12, 13, 15

Much will depend on form in the AIs and 6N still to come. But as it stands I don't think BOD would be picked on form for a Lions centre selection. You want him there for his experience and his ability to weave magic but he didn't have a strong tour in NZ. Maybe you could attribute that to his unsettled centre partnerships or the fact he hadn't played much rugby this year.

I think the key positions for me will be the backs. The Lions can pick some big boys who are set piece specialists and know the frailties of Australia. So there's a lot to choose from in that respect.

To me where it gets very sketchy is who to put in the backs. That is a big strength of Australia and where the NH sides have not been fluent on a consistent basis. Who to put up against the wizard of Genia? Who to put as flyhalf? Who to put as a centre partnership and the type of game Gatland will employ. Roberts is similar to BOD who has been affected by injury and a dip in form this year, albeit at different times of the year. Then the wings who will have to contend with Ioane and perhaps Mitchell. Plenty of options but not sure about any locked in certainties. Kearney seems to be the front runner but even then what to do with Halfpenny if the Lions don't pick a proven goalkicker at flyhalf?

So to me the back selections are still way up in the air. Plenty of possibilities, granted, in the forwards but they all give solidity to the side. The positions that make doubts arise in my mind are the backs. Plenty of rugby to be played no doubt and for players to get back into form and recover from injury. But big question marks as to their attacking abilities in particular.

HERSH wrote:Gatland loves Henson, if Henson stays fit and plays well for Oxford Taffs he'll be in contention for the Lions as he can cover 10, 12, 13, 15

How keen would the other players be to have him there tho?

HERSH wrote:Gatland loves Henson, if Henson stays fit and plays well for Oxford Taffs he'll be in contention for the Lions as he can cover 10, 12, 13, 15

Man love can only go so far. I suspect Gatland will be told in no uncertain terms that Henson is a non starter. For the good of the tour anyway.

Rodders - there's a lot of interesting questions around the older stagers:

1. Wilkinson as cover for 10 and 12. The question is whether Farrell actually wouldn't be better or possibly also Laidlaw as someone who can cover both 10 and 9 at international level (despite Laidlaw not having JW's pedigree at 10, obviously).

2. Hines as super-sub enforcer at 4. He ruled himself out of Scottish internationals only, not the Lions and would certainly do the Old Man River Simon Shaw unflappable angry dog thing well. His partnership with Gray was the best Scotland lock combination for years and the man is a winner.

3. O'Connell - my pals at Munster say that his knees will be doing well to last another season at this pace. He was the finest in Europe but could you honestly say that the hard, flat pitches of Australia would suit him? Then again, I'd rather Best was throwing to at least one jumper he knows.

4. O'Driscoll - terribly difficult to judge in tangible terms how much his renown and presence brings to his Lions colleagues - arguably a lot. Both JWII and O'Driscoll could claim a good understanding with Jamie Roberts. Much more likely to still be in one piece and able to tour than O'Connell - particularly as he'll almost certainly be playing in the next 6N as no young Irish centre has sufficiently held up his hand to replace him. Yet.

rodders wrote:The Lions captain will in all likelyhood meet most of the following criteria:

a) have toured before at least once
b) experience of beating Australia
c) captained their country and/or club
d) be nigh on guaranteed to start, if such a thing is possible
e) be highly respected in the home nations and the host country

Who meets most of that?

I'd say O'Driscoll is the player ticking most of the boxes but there would be question marks over d.

If O'Driscoll is playing well enough to tour I believe he will captain.

rodders, thought I'd try and put your tests to task:

Quality	Robshaw	BOD	Ford	Warburton	POC	Best
Have toured with Lions before	N	Y	Y	N	Y	N
Experience of beating Australia	N	Y	Y	N	Y	Y
Captained their country and/or club	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Guaranteed to start if fit & on form	N	Y	N	N	N	N
Highly respected in other Home Nations	?	Y	?	Y	Y	Y

Thoughts? Any players/qualities to add?

Sin é wrote:

irnbrew wrote: I,ve just read what guy,s on here are saying about the stats on the Welsh tour did you not see the break down of the tour Lydiate was by a mile the top tackler as was published in the paper and though i,m not welsh i like Warberton but his stats was poor .and it was said Lydiate had to cover for him.You cannot be doing the job of 6 and 7 at the break down and be expected to be carrying a lot of ball as well .As was put on here Lydiate was named in the World 15 last month in Rugby World based on his performancies so not bad .Will he go on the Lions tour i would say yes will he be first choice don,t know about that .And as i said before i,m not Welsh nor Irish so i,m not getting invovled in that one as it went on for weeks last time on here who was best .This is based on what facts i have read but also like your good selves what i have observed wacthing the games

Just noticed that Scotland only won 54% of their own lineout throws in the game they won against Australia recently.

Sin - that'll be the game played in 60km/h winds with the ball resembling a bar of damp soap then?

I suspect that number was lost in lieu of focussing afterwards on two more significant numbers for that game: 6-9.

Guaranteed to start if fit and on form. These are big ifs frankly for all those players whether it be the fit part or on form part.

I think having toured with Lions may not necessarily be an advantage. Nor experience of beating Australia. Captaining experience is more useful.

irnbrew wrote: I,ve just read what guy,s on here are saying about the stats on the Welsh tour did you not see the break down of the tour Lydiate was by a mile the top tackler as was published in the paper and though i,m not welsh i like Warberton but his stats was poor .and it was said Lydiate had to cover for him.You cannot be doing the job of 6 and 7 at the break down and be expected to be carrying a lot of ball as well .As was put on here Lydiate was named in the World 15 last month in Rugby World based on his performancies so not bad .Will he go on the Lions tour i would say yes will he be first choice don,t know about that .And as i said before i,m not Welsh nor Irish so i,m not getting invovled in that one as it went on for weeks last time on here who was best .This is based on what facts i have read but also like your good selves what i have observed wacthing the games

http://www.espnscrum.com/

These stats say otherwise.

Also, the highlighted bit is just rubbish. What does Lydiate do at the breakdown anyway?

Yes. Domineering physical presence.

[quote="rodders"]

http://twf.com.au/showthread.php?t=18939
Read the next paragraph.

Interview with Keith Woods - Thoughts on Martin Johnson and Lions

MH: You had a long and distinguished career in the game, what would you say are your highlights?

KW: Well, playing for the Lions was phenomenal; winning in '97 in South Africa was brilliant. Even the tour in 2001, even though we lost the series, was an incredible experience.

I remember being told by an older player early on that after a period of time, 10 matches or so, every international you play is just another match, but I never felt that. Every chance I got to represent my country I thought it was just a magnificent thing to be able to do and I loved it. So I look at virtually all those international matches I played in as highlights and, you know, we didn't win regularly until the latter half of my career and it was sometimes really, really hard but it was still an honour and a responsibility and I loved it for that.

http://www.sport.co.uk/features/Rugby_Union/1396/Sportcouk_meetsKeith_Wood.aspx

On the international stage you were also a key feature of the British and Irish Lions tours in 1997 in South Africa and in 2001 in Australia. The highlight has to be that unbreakable defence late in the second test of 1997 where you held off the Boks to clinch an 18-15 victory and seal the series win in Durban.

Yeah I’m glad you remembered the score. Great victory, great game, great tour. The Lions are so special on so many levels. I remember in the last two minutes I collided with their replacement second-row Fritz van Heerden. I tried to pull my leg out of the way and tore my groin. I played on for the last minute or two and you just can’t do anything. I tried to go off but we just didn’t seem to have time so when Neil Jenkins kicked it out on the full for the game to be over and we’d won everybody else was jumping all over the place. I was delighted but I just couldn’t walk. I remember our lock Jeremy Davidson was saying “come on smile Keith, don’t be so grumpy” and I just said “I can’t smile”.

Direct question about the Lions.

I'd say Keith sees the Lions as a highlight, but not the highlight of his career (which is what Heislip saw - getting selected for the Lions).

Also, the highlighted bit is just rubbish. What does Lydiate do at the breakdown anyway?

He causes it.

What does that even mean though Glas? How does he cause it? By making a tackle? What player doesn't then?

If you say tackle technique, I would ask you to check the highlights of Warburton during the world cup which shows all of his turnovers. Though Faletau and Charteris were heavily involved in assisting Warburton (and everyone noted their defence after the RWC) Lydiate wasn't involved once. Yet people say he allows Warbs to do what he does. Apparently not.

[quote="Sin é"]

rodders wrote:

http://twf.com.au/showthread.php?t=18939
Read the next paragraph.

Interview with Keith Woods - Thoughts on Martin Johnson and Lions

MH: You had a long and distinguished career in the game, what would you say are your highlights?

KW: Well, playing for the Lions was phenomenal; winning in '97 in South Africa was brilliant. Even the tour in 2001, even though we lost the series, was an incredible experience.

I remember being told by an older player early on that after a period of time, 10 matches or so, every international you play is just another match, but I never felt that. Every chance I got to represent my country I thought it was just a magnificent thing to be able to do and I loved it. So I look at virtually all those international matches I played in as highlights and, you know, we didn't win regularly until the latter half of my career and it was sometimes really, really hard but it was still an honour and a responsibility and I loved it for that.

http://www.sport.co.uk/features/Rugby_Union/1396/Sportcouk_meetsKeith_Wood.aspx

On the international stage you were also a key feature of the British and Irish Lions tours in 1997 in South Africa and in 2001 in Australia. The highlight has to be that unbreakable defence late in the second test of 1997 where you held off the Boks to clinch an 18-15 victory and seal the series win in Durban.

Yeah I’m glad you remembered the score. Great victory, great game, great tour. The Lions are so special on so many levels. I remember in the last two minutes I collided with their replacement second-row Fritz van Heerden. I tried to pull my leg out of the way and tore my groin. I played on for the last minute or two and you just can’t do anything. I tried to go off but we just didn’t seem to have time so when Neil Jenkins kicked it out on the full for the game to be over and we’d won everybody else was jumping all over the place. I was delighted but I just couldn’t walk. I remember our lock Jeremy Davidson was saying “come on smile Keith, don’t be so grumpy” and I just said “I can’t smile”.

Direct question about the Lions.

I'd say Keith sees the Lions as a highlight, but not the highlight of his career (which is what Heislip saw - getting selected for the Lions).

Whats your point. Heaslip sees the lions as a highlight. surely he is entitled to his own opinion

Thanks ASBO, yes that what I'm getting at but 1 thing to add is that each criteria isn't equally waited. I'd say the 4th category is most important.

Kia I'm not sure I agree with that. I think BOD played well in the 1st two tests, I'm honestly not convinced there is a better outside centre in the UK and Ireland still.

The biggest rival would be Davies but without wanting to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons there are serious question marks over whether the Welsh game plan, which swept all before them in the NH, is effective against the SH.

Australia didn't look particularly troubled by the physicality of the Welsh 3/4's, if anything I think they out muscled them with smaller men and Wales looked alarming predictable when not busting over the gainline.

I expect a backlash here but in 5 attempts now Wales haven't shown the subtledy or nouse to pull off a victory against Australia whereas O'Driscoll has several wins in the bag, the most recent 12 months ago when he wasn't playing anywhere near as well as now.

Asbo, interesting table.
If Ford isn't guaranteed to start if fit and on form, and similarly Best, then who would you have as Hooker?

By the way, I don't think Ford would be considered as Captain even if he started.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

HERSH wrote:Gatland loves Henson, if Henson stays fit and plays well for Oxford Taffs he'll be in contention for the Lions as he can cover 10, 12, 13, 15

How keen would the other players be to have him there tho?

If the other players are worried about Henson being there then they need to look in the mirror themselves.

Henson could IMO do very well in the Jeff and don't forget he was selected for Wales before the RWC and was doing ok against England just before he broke/injured his arm.

There will be players selected before him I agree but if injuries strike then I can see him going to make up the numbers.

rodders wrote:The biggest rival would be Davies but without wanting to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons there are serious question marks over whether the Welsh game plan, which swept all before them in the NH, is effective against the SH.

Then the problem isn't who plays at outside centre but who coaches the Lions.

George Carlin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

irnbrew wrote: I,ve just read what guy,s on here are saying about the stats on the Welsh tour did you not see the break down of the tour Lydiate was by a mile the top tackler as was published in the paper and though i,m not welsh i like Warberton but his stats was poor .and it was said Lydiate had to cover for him.You cannot be doing the job of 6 and 7 at the break down and be expected to be carrying a lot of ball as well .As was put on here Lydiate was named in the World 15 last month in Rugby World based on his performancies so not bad .Will he go on the Lions tour i would say yes will he be first choice don,t know about that .And as i said before i,m not Welsh nor Irish so i,m not getting invovled in that one as it went on for weeks last time on here who was best .This is based on what facts i have read but also like your good selves what i have observed wacthing the games

Just noticed that Scotland only won 54% of their own lineout throws in the game they won against Australia recently.

Sin - that'll be the game played in 60km/h winds with the ball resembling a bar of damp soap then?

I suspect that number was lost in lieu of focussing afterwards on two more significant numbers for that game: 6-9.

Australia, unlike scotland (used to playing in rough weather conditions ) had a 100% success rate (7 lineouts).

If Scotland secured the ball on their own throw, they might have won by more. Scotland lost 5 lineouts on their own throw.

What does that even mean though Glas? How does he cause it? By making a tackle? What player doesn't then?

It's not just that he tackles, it's where he tackles. He gets ball carriers well behind the gainline. Have a look at the World Cup quarter final. He negated SOB and Ferris as attacking threats where Australia had failed.

Rava wrote:Asbo, interesting table.
If Ford isn't guaranteed to start if fit and on form, and similarly Best, then who would you have as Hooker?

By the way, I don't think Ford would be considered as Captain even if he started.

I'd have one of them, Rav, just can't decide between them at the mo

The welsh probably did the best out of all the teams though, despite not really firing on all cylinders, they still pushed Australia right to the edge. However, I suppose you could say Australia were missing a lot of big names.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

rodders wrote:The biggest rival would be Davies but without wanting to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons there are serious question marks over whether the Welsh game plan, which swept all before them in the NH, is effective against the SH.

Then the problem isn't who plays at outside centre but who coaches the Lions.

A dream team of Richards, Jones and O'Shea.

Sin é wrote:
Australia, unliked scotland (used to playing in rough weather conditions ) had a 100% success rate (7 lineouts).

If Scotland secured the ball on their own throw, they might have won by more. Scotland lost 5 lineouts on their own throw.

Sin, you really can be a pedant sometimes! If you'd actually bothered to watch the game, you would have noted that they were nearly all mis-thrown, simple as (hence only one of them is registered as stolen ball for Oz)

Well fair enough Rodders. To me the question though on form BOD is the best. I think he made uncharacteristic errors in the first and third tests and didn't shine out in any game apart from the second. You yourself admit he isn't playing near his best. Of course there are reasons behind that. He is coming back from injury and I think BOD was handicapped by the absence of his usual centre partner. It was no surprise to me when BOD's best game was alongside D'Arcy. But I repeat that was on defence. They didn't do a lot on attack so saying Davies was blunt in attack is a moot point. Of course there are other reasons for that with regard to Irish tactics.

Also another point was Wales seemed to be caught off guard by the physicality of the Australian forwards. I don't think they got much ascendancy and when you get front foot ball you have players to test the Aussie line. Davies was without Roberts and Gatland will know the importance of combinations. If Roberts gets fit I'd rather see a proven combination of Roberts and Davies than BOD and D'Arcy for example. I can see that partnership doing more damage with front foot ball than with the Irish pair. You don't have to have combinations but looking at the options available, there will always be a physical player that should be coupled with a more effective runner. Whether that be at 12 or 13.

Like I said, there is a lot of rugby for players to recapture form. But I stand by my view that back selections are going to prove to be the most troublesome for Gatland in terms of finding a player effective on attack as well as defence. Because to win a series in Australia in my view, you will need to score tries as well as penalties.