The Lions One Year Out Part 2

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This is the Whiff guys thoughts on the Backs then

Lions – The Backs

On Tuesday, we looked at the forwards putting themselves forward for Lions selection. Today we see which backs should start learning the words to Power of Four, the fondly remembered Lions anthem.

Scrum Half

Already Packed his Spider-Bite Cream: Mike Phillips. At this juncture, no player is more inked in to the Lions test jersey than the big Welsh number nine. Not the most technically gifted, but a decent passer, his main strength is his running game and ability to link with his forwards. Plus, he’s already impressed on a Lions tour.

Work to do: Ben Youngs would be the obvious and desired deputy to Phillips – someone who offers something completely different, and a potential impact replacement late in matches, upping the pace and running tap penalties. He appears to have recovered his game after a difficult period. Danny Care mixes the good with the bad, but has had a fine season with Harlequins. You suspect Gatland would like Conor Murray in the panel as an insurance plan against Phillips, but he needs to show his best form. He needs to show greater speed off the base, but has a good pass once it gets moving.

Any bolters? Ospreys’ scrum half Rhys Webb is a smashing player, and looks the most capable of making a late burst.

Fly Half

Already Reading His Lonely Planet Guide: Johnny Sexton. With his goal-kicking yips behind him for Ireland, Johnny Sexton was one of the few successes of the Irish summer tour. Still not quite as regal in green as in blue, but we suspect Gatland is the sort of coach who’ll cajole the best out of him. Should be the test starter.

Work to do: We’re still not convinced by Rhys Priestland by a long way. Gatland seems to be a fan, though, even if he’s taken him off place-kicking duty for Wales. If Leigh Halfpenny cannot get into the side at full-back ahead of Rob Kearney, it will compromise his test credentials. Toby Flood and Owen Farrell offer slightly more stable talents than the hot-and-cold Welshman, and both will be on hand to provide solid back-up to Sexton should Gatland choose dependable place-kicking over more mercurial abilities.

Any bolters? A couple. A certain D. Cipriani will be back on English shores this season with Sale. Gatland was his one-time mentor back in the day at Wasps. It remains unlikely that the one-time next big thing will have the discipline and defensive willingness to push for a place on the tour, but how marvellous it would be if he could. The incumbent next-big-thing, George Ford is another who could make a late dash, but needs to depose Toby Flood at Leicester first.

Centres

Surfboard at the ready: The only centre who looks anything close to nailed-on is Wales’ Big Bopper Jamie Roberts. We had him in our ‘work to do’ section last year, but he has done plenty of that in the last twelve months. Hard runner, good hands, when he’s on song he’s close to unplayable; he’ll be a key man for the Lions and nigh on irreplaceable.

Work to do: Can Brian O’Driscoll see out his career with a victorious Lions tour? He would love nothing more. The old ledge-bag looked sprightly for Leinster but played a touch fast and loose in New Zealand. If his body holds together, he’ll surely do enough to make the plane. Oooooooooooohhh Manu Tuilagi and JJV Davies offer more - how shall we put this? - straight-line tendencies, but both would offer a serious threat to the Aussie gainline.

Any Bolters? Quality inside centres to offer competition to Roberts are thin on the ground, and it’s possible his understudy for Wales, Ashley Beck, will do likewise for the Lions. Performance in the Pro12 final underlined his quality.

Wings

Wine-tasting guide packed: George North. There’s no shortage of quality on the wings, with all four countries putting up quality players for examination, but the big, bruising Welshman is top of the bunch. No bosh-merchant, his skill, distribution and movement belie his monstrous physique.

Work to do: A large field. From Ireland there’s Keith Earls and Tommy Bowe. Earls’ ability to play centre could work to his advantage, and he has a Lions tour under his belt. Bowe excelled in 2009, and is Ireland’s best attacker. Wales’ other wing Alex Cuthbert (another monster) has timed his rise from obscurity to test class wing impeccably. Chris Ashton’s star has waned a little, but he’ll be looking to reassert himself at Saracens. And flying Dutchman (via Scotland) Tim Visser is in with a shout. He has only one Six Nations to show he can handle international rugby, but he only has the hopes of a nation riding on it, so no pressure, laddie.

Bolters: This is the most bolter-friendly position on the paddock; youngsters can quickly emerge and put themselves in the frame in a short space of time – it’s also a position where confidence and form have the biggest role to play, so Gatland might look past reputation and take a punt on those who are banging in tries. Christian Wade, Craig Gilroy and Charlie Sharples are just three of many to keep an eye on.

Full Back

Planning a visit to Ayers Rock: Another area of real depth for the Lions, with all four nations putting up a genuine contender. But Rob Kearney, after his annus mirabilis, is at the top of the tree. Outstanding performances on last Lions tour won’t be forgotten either.

Work to do: It’ll be at most two from three terrific international players. Leigh Halfpenny has a mule of a boot and while he isn’t the tallest, is a beautiful runner and dependable catcher. England’s Ben Foden is a shade off his 2010-11 form, but he is a handsome footballer in every sense of the word. Already making a bolt is Scotland’s Stuart Hogg, having been eventually let loose for Scotland this Six Nations. Greased lightning over the turf, his pace would be a real asset.

Any bolters: Felix Jones was mentioned in our comments section this time last year, but injury has been cruel to him. Gloucester’s lightning-fast Johnny May is an exciting talent, but can he break into the England team to make an impression?

Just Eleven Months To Go

A year out from the tour, the augurs are good. Wales ran Australia very close in the recent series, and were painfully unlucky to come out on the losing side in the latter two matches. Surely augmenting that side with a handful of daring Irish, granite-hewn Englishmen, and a giant peroxide-blonde Scot will tilt the balance? Warren Gatland has already been on one successful, albeit losing, tour and his task will be to deliver a harmonious, happy, competitive squad, similar to 2009. Therer’s usually little enough you can do on the tactical innovation side in such a short timeframe, so don’t expect too much variation on the Welsh run-hard-run-straight gameplan, with Mike Phillips directing a brutish pack of forwards and Sexton looking to bring the likes of George North and Tim Visser into play as much as possible. With quality scrummagers, no short of backrow options and plenty of good attacking threats in the backline, this is the Lions’ best chance of a series win since… ooooooh… 1997. Memo to all: don’t get injured.

Gibson wrote:

Thomond wrote:Gibbo at times you talk pure rubbish. So Leinster boys took charge in the second test? We sure saw that lovely backline play, the coaching staff deserve some credit for that and I fecking hate them! I know things are bleak for Ireland but to say the breakdown wasn't an area of positivity is laughable. There are some bright spots in between the shoite.

Leinster backrow? Leinster backs? 2 out of 3 Leinster frontrow? Sexton matching Carter - as predicted 3 years ago?

Yes. We did. We nearly had the feicers. Leinster would give the AB's a proper game. Politically chosen culchies and noordies... spoiled that particular chance. With the exception of Ryan and Best - who were commendable.

Maybe in another 100 years?

So if they can do it in one game, why don't they do it more often? Leinster boys don't give a shoite baout Ireland like the Munster lads a few years back? We play a game we are not suited to playing (physically) and every now and then we are able to dominate teams that's pretty much it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What do you mean 3rd and real test? Why don't the first two don't count, the ones where we actually did do well against the breakdown? In fact in the 3rd test NZ were missing some of their best players.

I don't agree that we need one at all, and I think the tour has clearly proved that. And if we do need one, O'Brien did the best job of any NH 7 on the tours bar Rennie, and against the best opposition (NZ). He is superb at the breakdown nowadays.

You may be right that 7 isn't the best position for O'Brien, but that doesn't mean O'Brien hasn't been excellent as a 7 recently. We also don't know if it really has affected his running game anyway playing at 7, because apparently the reason his running game hasn't been as good is due to his injury. Hopefully the operation will fix that.

Whilst i dont believe Robshaw will travel with the Lions...i think his performance in the first test v SA was absolutely immense.

Im 50/50 on the out and out 7 discussion...BUT what i do believe is that the rest of the pack should offer help in that area...eg Dan Cole has really started to shine in this area.

Really? I think he definitely will if he is fit. He is playing really well, he is a versatile backrow who is the captain of England. I think the Lions will try to play that fast brand of rugby used by Wales, Leinster and Quins and he would fit in perfectly with it as he does with Quins. I would actually be really surprised if he doesn't tour.

Healy is a cert if he can keep playing as he is. He was by far the best prop on the tours.

Rory, Healy was the best loosehead and Cole the best tighthead on the SH tours for the NH but A Jones and Jenkins have the experience and are used to playing together so I'd say it's open at present. Personally I'd go with Healy and Cole knowing that with the Welsh boys on the bench the props will give 80 minutes of powerful rugby.

You see 9's can only work off what their pack has given them, at the breakdown Wales were dominated, and as I said Phillips spent his games on the back foot, and having to wrestle for the ball on most occasions, where Genia had a neatly presented ball regularly, and much more of it!

Bluesman, Phillips was given an awful lot more from his pack then Youngs was given from England's yet the 2nd test performance from Youngs is one of the best individual performances I saw all last season. It was hardly a flash in the pan either, he offered exactly the same high tempo running threat mixed with pure determination in the AP Final when he dragged a limp Tigers team back into the game almost on his own. Remember Youngs has a good record vs Genia as well.

Flood overtake Sexton? Seriously? Sexton is far better than him. Sexton will be pushed by Madigan and improve a fair bit. He is a talented guy who has room and the ability to improve.

Thomond if Flood can have a season without getting injured you'll be suprised at just how good he is. The only real run of games he had last season co-incided with Tigers marching up the table and notching up a record number of back to back TBP wins. As of now Sexton is miles out in front but don't right off Flood just yet.

On Healy I completely agree. His scrummaging is much improved, and his workrate is peerless. Australia are hardly going to be bring a beastly scrum to the series in any event, and Healy is more than capable of dealing with that aspect of play against the Aussies.

The tighthead question is slightly trickier, Cole versus Jones at the moment, but Ross and Murray could come into the equation with big seasons. Again, given the Aussie scrum, I'd be tempted by Cole. His work in the loose is rapidly coming along, and I'd still back him to beat the Aussie looseheads into submission. They don't really have a big physical option to take him on, and technically he's as good as any.

As for Robshaw, I'm with Rory G on this. I just can't see him touring, despite him being England captain (Borthwick didn't tour last time). There are better 7's and better 6's, and SOB (who I can't believe won't be touring if fit) gives you versatility should you need it. Two from Lydiate, Ferris and Croft at 6, and Warburton and Rennie at 7, with SOB going as an option in both positions. It's obviously early days, but I can't see past those options at the moment.

Can't see Robshaw getting in either. Well if he does it will be at O'Briens expense.

I'd say Gatland will go for Warburton and O'Brien and perhaps 2 from Ferris, Lydiate and Rennie... depending on which flank he plans to play SOB on.

Two from 3 of Heaslip, Falateau and Denton and finally a utility second row who can cover the backrow too like Donnacha Ryan or Courtney Lawes.

whats the latest on Kelly Brown? Will he be fit enough to play his way into possible contention?

tigertattie wrote:whats the latest on Kelly Brown? Will he be fit enough to play his way into possible contention?

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/166935.html

Thomond wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Thomond wrote:Gibbo at times you talk pure rubbish. So Leinster boys took charge in the second test? We sure saw that lovely backline play, the coaching staff deserve some credit for that and I fecking hate them! I know things are bleak for Ireland but to say the breakdown wasn't an area of positivity is laughable. There are some bright spots in between the shoite.

Leinster backrow? Leinster backs? 2 out of 3 Leinster frontrow? Sexton matching Carter - as predicted 3 years ago?

Yes. We did. We nearly had the feicers. Leinster would give the AB's a proper game. Politically chosen culchies and noordies... spoiled that particular chance. With the exception of Ryan and Best - who were commendable.

Maybe in another 100 years?

So if they can do it in one game, why don't they do it more often? Leinster boys don't give a shoite baout Ireland like the Munster lads a few years back? We play a game we are not suited to playing (physically) and every now and then we are able to dominate teams that's pretty much it.

Ah T & Stag, I was just winding. We need a change of coach. We also need to look beyond a few of the players we have and trust more in youff. Sooner rather than later.

[quote="Gibson"]We need a change of coach.[quote]

Agree

[quote="Gibson"]We also need to look beyond a few of the players we have [quote]

Agree

Gibson wrote:Trust more in youff. Sooner rather than later.

Agree

I'd love to see this Lions team;

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Dan Cole
4. Richie Gray
5. Paul O'Connell (c)
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Jonathon Sexton
11. Tim Visser
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Leigh Halfpenny
15. Rob Kearney

16. Ross Ford 17. Gethin Jenkins 18. Adam Jones 19. Alun-Wyn Jones 20. Sean O'Brien 21. Chris Cusiter 22. Owen Farrell 23. Chris Ashton

Just has power and pace right through the team. Aussies would struggle to live with it I think.

If the tour was tomorrow;

PROPS
Cian Healy, Alex Corbisiero, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross
HOOKERS
Rory Best, Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford
LOCKS
Paul O'Connell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Richie Gray, Alastair Kellock, Mouritz Botha
BACKROW
Stephen Ferris, Dan Lydiate, Chris Robshaw, Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau, Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip
SCRUM HALF
Mike Phillips, Eoin Reddan, Chris Cusiter
OUTHALF
Jonathon Sexton, Owen Farrell, James Hook
CENTRES
Jamie Roberts, Jonathon Davies, Manu Tuilagi, Scott Williams, Keith Earls
BACK THREE
Chris Ashton, Tommy Bowe, Tim Visser, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney, Stuart Hogg, Alex Goode, Ben Foden

Notch wrote:12. Jamie Roberts
13. Manu Tuilagi

They're probably the two best individuals. So I certainly think the combination should be tested in the build up to the 1st test match. But does it lack guile?

For me Roberts is one of my first names on the team sheet. But Davies or O'Driscoll to partner him might turn out to be better than Tuilagi, who might be better used making a real impact off the bench.

Notch you have got:

Foden
Kearney
Hogg
Halfpenny
Goode

Thats five players covering fullback.

denton played better than every one of those back row options last 6n, so hes well in the mix

Agree, that Denton was fantastic. I thought Ferris was actually awesome in the 6 Nations too. And in the RWC. His destructive abilities in defence are great. He smashes players backwards and can suck any momentum out of opposition attacks. He couldn't really have done much better.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Notch wrote:12. Jamie Roberts
13. Manu Tuilagi

They're probably the two best individuals. So I certainly think the combination should be tested in the build up to the 1st test match. But does it lack guile?

For me Roberts is one of my first names on the team sheet. But Davies or O'Driscoll to partner him might turn out to be better than Tuilagi, who might be better used making a real impact off the bench.

I think tuilagi would be a much better winger than centre, got good pace but doesn't pass well enough to play centre. A great bullocking player, very strong, one on one there are not many going to stop him out wide.

Even at England level if they played a back three of Foden, ashton and Tuilagi with players like May and Twelvetrees inside they would be pretty potent.

For the lions Jamie Roberts, Jd2 with a back three of North, Tuilagi and Kearney would be pretty strong.

If Gatland is made coach, he has a good eye to re-appropriate players, like Jamie Roberts for example, he may well utilise Tuilagi outside of the midfield.

Maes,

I think that would be quite a bold move, there will be enough quality wingers in contentuon without converting a centre.

Notch wrote:If the tour was tomorrow;

PROPS
Cian Healy, Alex Corbisiero, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross
HOOKERS
Rory Best, Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford
LOCKS
Paul O'Connell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Richie Gray, Alastair Kellock, Mouritz Botha
BACKROW
Stephen Ferris, Dan Lydiate, Chris Robshaw, Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau, Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip
SCRUM HALF
Mike Phillips, Eoin Reddan, Chris Cusiter
OUTHALF
Jonathon Sexton, Owen Farrell, James Hook
CENTRES
Jamie Roberts, Jonathon Davies, Manu Tuilagi, Scott Williams, Keith Earls
BACK THREE
Chris Ashton, Tommy Bowe, Tim Visser, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney, Stuart Hogg, Alex Goode, Ben Foden

Ive just nearly choked on my dinner....

Most England fans dont want him near the England side let alone the Lions. I have respect that he tries his heart out...and always gives 100% which many players could learn from...BUT he's an average international at best...

red_stag wrote:Notch you have got:

Foden
Kearney
Hogg
Halfpenny
Goode

Thats five players covering fullback.

I would see Foden, Kearney and Goode as the fullbacks with Halfpenny as a wing and Hogg as a utility back (centre, wing and fullback)

Farrel and Hook over Laidlaw? yeah right

Goode seems a bit of an odd candidate. I also agree with TJ, Laidlaw deserves a place. Over Farrell and definitely over Hook.

I was bemused with Bothas name in the frame...and i find it equally comical that Farrell is aswell.

He is simply not ready...or in my eyes never will be. Even in England...Ford, Burns, Heathcote even Catterick will be better 10's and Allen, Turner Hall, Hopefully twelevetrees and even our Fitzy are better 12's.

A solid defence and kicker should not make you a lion!

I'm a bit confused by all the people picking someone like Lydiate over Robshaw and, honestly, i have never seen the hype with him. The tackling demon who gets everywhere, yet only came 3rd in the tackles made rankings for backrow players in the 6N. Robshaw can easily do that job and also offers brilliant link play and has worked a lot on the "fetching" side of things.

I like Faletau and Heaslip and hope they get back to their previous form, but presently I'd take Denton over either of them (close with Heaslip who has been starting to look like the player of old). Would like to find a place for Croft who offers something completely different to the others, something like

6. Croft
7. SOB
8. Heaslip

19. Warbs/Robshaw

SOB in there to add some grunt whilst maintaining the ruck work that Warbs would offer. I've put Sam as the replacement because i do think hes a quality player, Robshaw is there for offering high quality across the backrow.

Another combo i wouldn't mind looking at is;

6. Ferris - bulk and close quarter carrying
7. Warbs - link play and breakdown
8. Faletau - pacey carrier out wide and tackles all day

19. Robshaw - offers all of the above to a lesser degree and can cover everywhere

Yeah if you look at the stats, Robshaw tackles more and more consistently, even with his T2 shocker, than Lydiate. But Lydiate almost certainly does more damage with each tackle. But I get the feeling that Robshaw, for his flaws, is massively underrated by a lot if you on here. This summer I watched him play a better fetching game than I've seen from Warbs since the RWC and in the 6N he was a more consistent and frequent tackler than Ferris, SOB, Lydiate and any backrower other than Dusautoir despite playing as the team openside, making 50% of the England back row's tackles. I'm not saying he's a better flanker for the Lions than Ferris, SOB, Rennie, Warburton etc necessarily but acting as if he isn't in any of their leagues is against the evidence i can see and frankly disrespectful

Not entirely true CJ. Ferris was the top and most consistent tackler by a fair margin in the 6 nations.

Actually I did the maths and Dusautoir was. I'll find em for you

I agree CJ i actually wouldnt swap Robshaw for any of the above for England at the moment....but i still have that niggly feeling that he wont travel. Dont know why...just do...

it was Dusautoir CJ, i remember the article. Was still in the high 90's for completion and was marginally lower than Ferris and Dusautoir. Either way, well ahead of Lydiate, who i feel, that without JD creaming his pants over him at every opportunity would never have won player of the 6N, which was Richie Grays all the way.

I agree with CJ, that for some reason, a lot of people on this board think that Robshaw is some sort of journeyman, not fit to lace the boots of the likes of Warbuton, Ferris and SOB. He has, in fact, consistently been one of the top backrowers of the Lions options the last season. He also has an incredible engine on him and rarely gets injured. Can the likes of Warbuton, Lydiate or Ferris claim the same? Unfortunately, given the nature of the tour, injuries and fatigue are likely, someone with Robshaws qualities would be invaluable to the tour imo.

Ferris had the third most tackles, just behind Robshaw (but then SOB makes a few too) and 4th per game, just behind Robshaw again. He had the joint 5th best %age, behind Robshaw at 2nd. I imagine if tackles for a loss etc were measured he would be ahead of Robshaw though. And he definitely carries better!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually I did the maths and Dusautoir was. I'll find em for you

I did too, though I don't remember checking Dusautoir's tackle stats, just the home nations.

Anyway, here are the stats from ESPN for the players you mentioned:

Dusautoir: 77/1
Robshaw: 64/1
Ferris: 63/3
O'Brien:44/1
Lydiate: 43/2

So you are right, Dusautoir actually beat everyone by a good bit, with Robshaw coming second. Lydiate and O'Brien both missed one game, though O'Brien also had the least game time out of everyone.

Robshaw- 64 tackles, 5 games, 12.8 per game, 1 miss, 98%
Croft- 36 tackles, 5 games, 5.1 per match, 5 misses, 88%
Stroksoscsch- 12 tackles, 2 games, 6 per match, 2 misses, 86%
Rennie- 71 tackles, 5 matches, 14 per match, 8 misses, 90%
Barclay- 41 tackles, 5 matches (some subs), 8 per match, 2 misses, 95%
Warburton- 17 tackles, 3 matches, 5.7 per match, 2 misses, 89%
Lydiate- 43 tackles, 4 matches, 10.75 per match, 2 misses, 96%
R Jones- 24 tackles, 4 matches (mostly as a sub ), 6 per match, 3 misses, 89%
O'Brien- 44 tackles, 4 matches, 11 per match, 1 miss, 98% but < Robshaw's
Ferris- 63 tackles, 5 matches, 12.6 per match, 3 misses, 95%
Bonnaire- 37 tackles, 5 matches, 7.4 per match, 4 misses, 90%
Dusautoir- 77 tackles!, 5 matches, 15.4 per match, 1 miss!, 99%

In 7 matches, Robshaw has passed the ball 34 times (5 times a game out of 12 receptions per game, I bet that's a better ratio of ball received to spread than Farrell), carried 54 for 68m (only 1.25m per carry, hard yards, 7.5 carries per game), only beating one defender, with 2 offloads. He has given up the ball 3 times in contact or due to handling errors. He has made 90 tackles and missed 5, 4 of which were on Saturday, which is 13 tackles each match at a completion rate of 95%. Before last match it was 99%. He has won 4 throws in the lineout and 1 more on opposition throw in. He has given away only 5 penalties, less than 1 a game, 3 of which were on Saturday and 2 of which were plain wrong. No tries or assists or cards of any sort. Not. Bad. And to call him defensively weak when he was the key player with Barritt in our defence in the Spring is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong. You say good players don't miss half a dozen tackles in a test match. He hasn't missed half a dozen tackles in test matches, period

Copied from just after T2

..I haven't said anything about Robshaw being defensively weak. Or anything about him actually.

What the stats really show is that Dusautoir is a monster

The post above yours was literally copy pasted from another thread. It was originally in response to someone else not you. I know you didn't even mention Robshaw, sorry I know the quote is fairly out of context

ChequeredJersey wrote:The post above yours was literally copy pasted from another thread. It was originally in response to someone else not you. I know you didn't even mention Robshaw, sorry I know the quote is fairly out of context

Sorry man! My mistake (again)!

Thanks for the stats anyway, it is an interesting read.

On that basis, I really don't understand why Lydiate won player of the tournament.

Sorry got carried away. Just getting incensed at some implications that Robshaw is a journeyman but similar players who appear to offer less are touted as Lions starters

Context should be looked at too, though he wouldn't have been my pick

ChequeredJersey wrote:What the stats really show is that Dusautoir is a monster

And so is somebody else whom plenty of posters here are apparently happy not considering as a tourist:

Robshaw- 64 tackles, 5 games, 12.8 per game, 1 miss, 98%
Croft- 36 tackles, 5 games, 5.1 per match, 5 misses, 88%
Stroksoscsch- 12 tackles, 2 games, 6 per match, 2 misses, 86%
Rennie- 71 tackles, 5 matches, 14 per match, 8 misses, 90%
Barclay- 41 tackles, 5 matches (some subs), 8 per match, 2 misses, 95%
Warburton- 17 tackles, 3 matches, 5.7 per match, 2 misses, 89%
Lydiate- 43 tackles, 4 matches, 10.75 per match, 2 misses, 96%
R Jones- 24 tackles, 4 matches (mostly as a sub ), 6 per match, 3 misses, 89%
O'Brien- 44 tackles, 4 matches, 11 per match, 1 miss, 98% but < Robshaw's
Ferris- 63 tackles, 5 matches, 12.6 per match, 3 misses, 95%
Bonnaire- 37 tackles, 5 matches, 7.4 per match, 4 misses, 90%
Dusautoir- 77 tackles!, 5 matches, 15.4 per match, 1 miss!, 99%

Presumably the same people who don't think his 24 tackles in one match had anything to do with Scotland beating Australia recently.

Yeah Rennie too, esp as he is great at the breakdown as well

I'm happy to wait for the stats from next season's Six Nations, and even then I wouldn't base selection on them. You could pick the top three players according to the stats and end up with a horribly unbalanced back row. 'Combinations', which Jiffy would shout if he wasn't shouting 'numbers' instead.

He has the most misses though. If he'd made all of them, he would've topped the beast Dusatoir.

Personally, I like this Rennie. Scotland, for all their attacking flaws, seem to be able to produce top quality backrowers like they do single malts.

Missed him off the list somehow sorry

I'm not saying we should base selection on these stats, just that people are being overly dismissive of Robshaw when the evidence shows that he was a lot better than they thought

These stats tell me one thing and one thing only...

France and Scotland were very poor, were forced to make hundreds of tackles through their lack of keeping hold of the ball.

Dus made loads of tackles, but it is partly because France were poor. This says little od Dus's ability, aside from throwing himself around. The stats doesn't take every tackle in context, and until they can are pretty useless.

Re Robshaw, IMO he's 7/8 down the pecking order. He doesn't offer anywhere near the fetching ability of Warbs, Rennie or Tipuric, the athleticism of Ferris, Croft, SOB, Mahony, the support play of most or the defencive abilities of Lydiate, Ferris, or Wood.
He's one of these players that offer the whole package but to a lower degree, and there are far better options available.

I personally like Robshaw, have done for about 5 seasons, and beleive he should've been playing international rugby well before he has done, but can't justify taking him over others.

CJ

If this was court that 'evidence' you used was the equivilant of the defendants drug dealer telling all he didn't steal the weed.

GS winning teams generally don't need to make as many tackles as those at the bottom of the table.

I'd dispute all of that except the carrying

We came 2nd...

Notch wrote:If the tour was tomorrow;

PROPS
Cian Healy, Alex Corbisiero, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross
HOOKERS
Rory Best, Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford
LOCKS
Paul O'Connell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Richie Gray, Alastair Kellock, Mouritz Botha
BACKROW
Stephen Ferris, Dan Lydiate, Chris Robshaw, Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau, Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip
SCRUM HALF
Mike Phillips, Eoin Reddan, Chris Cusiter
OUTHALF
Jonathon Sexton, Owen Farrell, James Hook
CENTRES
Jamie Roberts, Jonathon Davies, Manu Tuilagi, Scott Williams, Keith Earls
BACK THREE
Chris Ashton, Tommy Bowe, Tim Visser, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney, Stuart Hogg, Alex Goode, Ben Foden

No George North!.....

And thats why this forum is so great.

For the record I'm not a Lydiate lauder, I understand he has his strengths and weaknesses, but in general he divides people.

There are loads of people who just regurgitate JD and talk about his 'tackling' and explain you don't understand the game if you don't see it. THIS IS BS!

Then there are others who say he is useless, misses tackles and is generally outplayed by his opposition. THIS IS ALSO BS!

IMO Ferris has the 6 spot in his pocket, followed by Croft and the versatility of SOB as 3rd cover. Lydiate and Jones reserve.

Rennie is fav for the 7 birth, followed by Warbs, possibly Tipuric, and SOB as cover. One of Warbs/Tipuric and Barclay reserve.

Heaslip and Denton 8's, Morgan reserve.

Thats my picks, with a bolter/wild card thrown in.

PROPS
Cian Healy
Alex Corbisiero
Gethin Jenkins
Adam Jones
Dan Cole
Euan Murray

HOOKERS
Rory Best
Dylan Hartley
Ross Ford

LOCKS
Paul O'Connell
Alun-Wyn Jones
Richie Gray
Donacha Ryan
Luke Charteris

BACKROW
Stephen Ferris
Tom Croft
Sam Warburton
Ross Rennie
Sean O'Brien (8,7)
Dave Denton (8,6)

SCRUM HALF
Ben Youngs
Chris Cusiter
Greig Laidlaw (9,10)

OUTHALF
Jonathon Sexton
Owen Farrell
Toby Flood

CENTRES
Jamie Roberts
Jonathon Davies
Scott Williams
Manu Tuilagi
Keith Earls
Brian O'Driscol

BACK THREE
Tommy Bowe
Rob Kearney
Tim Visser
Stuart Hogg
Leigh Halfpenny
George North
Ben Foden

Test Team :

1 Cian Healy
2 Ross Ford[/b]
3 Dan Cole
4 Richie Gray
5 Paul O'Connell (Captain)
6 Stephen Ferris
7 Ross Rennie
8 Sean O'Brien (8,7)

9 Ben Youngs
10 Jonathon Sexton
11 Tim Visser
12 Jamie Roberts
13 Jonathon Davies
14 George North
15 Leigh Halfpenny

Gethin Jenkins, Rory Best, Alun-Wyn Jones, Dave Denton, Greig Laidlaw, Manu Tuilagi, Rob Kearney

Ok so the thoughts behind some of the selections.

I have never rated Phillips, he spends too much time being "another loose forward" and not enough time being a scrum half for my liking. In the summer tour Genia gave a master class of how to play the crucial fulcrum of Scrum half and Phillips came away looking a bit silly.

The backrow is an interesting one. Injured or not Warburton has failed to reclaim the form that saw him set the RWC alight. He struggled with Pockock in the summer tours, wheras Rennie albeit with Barclay's help from no.8 dealt with Pockock well. Doing much the same here by playing SOB at 8 who is comfortable there and can assist Rennie at the breakdown.

Backs : would have loved to put Kearney at 15 but with Sexton's kicking still a bit iffy I would have Halfpenny at 15 on kicking duties. North, Visser, JD2, Roberts...... it might not be subtle but if we can punch some holes in the Ozzie backline I could see the test series going our way.

Off the bench Laidlaw brings versatility and Tuilagi brings more Physical play, Kearney on to exploit some broken feild running.

A lot of rugby to play between now and tour time but thats who I would pick right now.