The Lions One Year Out Part 2

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This is the Whiff guys thoughts on the Backs then

Lions – The Backs

On Tuesday, we looked at the forwards putting themselves forward for Lions selection. Today we see which backs should start learning the words to Power of Four, the fondly remembered Lions anthem.

Scrum Half

Already Packed his Spider-Bite Cream: Mike Phillips. At this juncture, no player is more inked in to the Lions test jersey than the big Welsh number nine. Not the most technically gifted, but a decent passer, his main strength is his running game and ability to link with his forwards. Plus, he’s already impressed on a Lions tour.

Work to do: Ben Youngs would be the obvious and desired deputy to Phillips – someone who offers something completely different, and a potential impact replacement late in matches, upping the pace and running tap penalties. He appears to have recovered his game after a difficult period. Danny Care mixes the good with the bad, but has had a fine season with Harlequins. You suspect Gatland would like Conor Murray in the panel as an insurance plan against Phillips, but he needs to show his best form. He needs to show greater speed off the base, but has a good pass once it gets moving.

Any bolters? Ospreys’ scrum half Rhys Webb is a smashing player, and looks the most capable of making a late burst.

Fly Half

Already Reading His Lonely Planet Guide: Johnny Sexton. With his goal-kicking yips behind him for Ireland, Johnny Sexton was one of the few successes of the Irish summer tour. Still not quite as regal in green as in blue, but we suspect Gatland is the sort of coach who’ll cajole the best out of him. Should be the test starter.

Work to do: We’re still not convinced by Rhys Priestland by a long way. Gatland seems to be a fan, though, even if he’s taken him off place-kicking duty for Wales. If Leigh Halfpenny cannot get into the side at full-back ahead of Rob Kearney, it will compromise his test credentials. Toby Flood and Owen Farrell offer slightly more stable talents than the hot-and-cold Welshman, and both will be on hand to provide solid back-up to Sexton should Gatland choose dependable place-kicking over more mercurial abilities.

Any bolters? A couple. A certain D. Cipriani will be back on English shores this season with Sale. Gatland was his one-time mentor back in the day at Wasps. It remains unlikely that the one-time next big thing will have the discipline and defensive willingness to push for a place on the tour, but how marvellous it would be if he could. The incumbent next-big-thing, George Ford is another who could make a late dash, but needs to depose Toby Flood at Leicester first.

Centres

Surfboard at the ready: The only centre who looks anything close to nailed-on is Wales’ Big Bopper Jamie Roberts. We had him in our ‘work to do’ section last year, but he has done plenty of that in the last twelve months. Hard runner, good hands, when he’s on song he’s close to unplayable; he’ll be a key man for the Lions and nigh on irreplaceable.

Work to do: Can Brian O’Driscoll see out his career with a victorious Lions tour? He would love nothing more. The old ledge-bag looked sprightly for Leinster but played a touch fast and loose in New Zealand. If his body holds together, he’ll surely do enough to make the plane. Oooooooooooohhh Manu Tuilagi and JJV Davies offer more - how shall we put this? - straight-line tendencies, but both would offer a serious threat to the Aussie gainline.

Any Bolters? Quality inside centres to offer competition to Roberts are thin on the ground, and it’s possible his understudy for Wales, Ashley Beck, will do likewise for the Lions. Performance in the Pro12 final underlined his quality.

Wings

Wine-tasting guide packed: George North. There’s no shortage of quality on the wings, with all four countries putting up quality players for examination, but the big, bruising Welshman is top of the bunch. No bosh-merchant, his skill, distribution and movement belie his monstrous physique.

Work to do: A large field. From Ireland there’s Keith Earls and Tommy Bowe. Earls’ ability to play centre could work to his advantage, and he has a Lions tour under his belt. Bowe excelled in 2009, and is Ireland’s best attacker. Wales’ other wing Alex Cuthbert (another monster) has timed his rise from obscurity to test class wing impeccably. Chris Ashton’s star has waned a little, but he’ll be looking to reassert himself at Saracens. And flying Dutchman (via Scotland) Tim Visser is in with a shout. He has only one Six Nations to show he can handle international rugby, but he only has the hopes of a nation riding on it, so no pressure, laddie.

Bolters: This is the most bolter-friendly position on the paddock; youngsters can quickly emerge and put themselves in the frame in a short space of time – it’s also a position where confidence and form have the biggest role to play, so Gatland might look past reputation and take a punt on those who are banging in tries. Christian Wade, Craig Gilroy and Charlie Sharples are just three of many to keep an eye on.

Full Back

Planning a visit to Ayers Rock: Another area of real depth for the Lions, with all four nations putting up a genuine contender. But Rob Kearney, after his annus mirabilis, is at the top of the tree. Outstanding performances on last Lions tour won’t be forgotten either.

Work to do: It’ll be at most two from three terrific international players. Leigh Halfpenny has a mule of a boot and while he isn’t the tallest, is a beautiful runner and dependable catcher. England’s Ben Foden is a shade off his 2010-11 form, but he is a handsome footballer in every sense of the word. Already making a bolt is Scotland’s Stuart Hogg, having been eventually let loose for Scotland this Six Nations. Greased lightning over the turf, his pace would be a real asset.

Any bolters: Felix Jones was mentioned in our comments section this time last year, but injury has been cruel to him. Gloucester’s lightning-fast Johnny May is an exciting talent, but can he break into the England team to make an impression?

Just Eleven Months To Go

A year out from the tour, the augurs are good. Wales ran Australia very close in the recent series, and were painfully unlucky to come out on the losing side in the latter two matches. Surely augmenting that side with a handful of daring Irish, granite-hewn Englishmen, and a giant peroxide-blonde Scot will tilt the balance? Warren Gatland has already been on one successful, albeit losing, tour and his task will be to deliver a harmonious, happy, competitive squad, similar to 2009. Therer’s usually little enough you can do on the tactical innovation side in such a short timeframe, so don’t expect too much variation on the Welsh run-hard-run-straight gameplan, with Mike Phillips directing a brutish pack of forwards and Sexton looking to bring the likes of George North and Tim Visser into play as much as possible. With quality scrummagers, no short of backrow options and plenty of good attacking threats in the backline, this is the Lions’ best chance of a series win since… ooooooh… 1997. Memo to all: don’t get injured.

Rugger;

I like quite a lot of that team but one thing that I'm not so keen on is having Visser in there (I didn't like Flutey playing before either). He's also only ever had one game at test level and that was against Fiji. In general your wingers are all reasonably similar (perhaps excluding Hogg) as being good all rounders but lacking out and out pace. I'd put in Ashton for Visser, i'd suggest Hogg on the wing but he plays predominantly at FB and, being an inexperienced player at test level, it seems a bit risky to move him there.

I'd also be tempted to put in Care over Blair, on his day Care is brilliant and for the rest of the time he is pretty consistent at being very good. The style of play at Quins would suit the Lions style and i think he would offer a much bigger threat around the fringes than Blair.

Not sure about the Welsh centres, they haven't been firing too well of late and the aussies are very adept at cutting down big runners. If he's playing well BOD has to be there with Roberts to provide a bit of guile.

belovedfrosties wrote:Rugger;

I like quite a lot of that team but one thing that I'm not so keen on is having Visser in there (I didn't like Flutey playing before either).

As much as it contradicts my team I agree 100% with this, but I reckon he will make his mark on the international stage and should he get his name on the Score sheet in the Autumn or 6N I think he'll be hard to ignore.

I do feel that residencey should not qualify you for the Lions but I hink that opens a whole new can of worms.

thebluesmancometh wrote:These stats tell me one thing and one thing only...

France and Scotland were very poor, were forced to make hundreds of tackles through their lack of keeping hold of the ball.

Dus made loads of tackles, but it is partly because France were poor. This says little od Dus's ability, aside from throwing himself around. The stats doesn't take every tackle in context, and until they can are pretty useless.

Re Robshaw, IMO he's 7/8 down the pecking order. He doesn't offer anywhere near the fetching ability of Warbs, Rennie or Tipuric, the athleticism of Ferris, Croft, SOB, Mahony, the support play of most or the defencive abilities of Lydiate, Ferris, or Wood.
He's one of these players that offer the whole package but to a lower degree, and there are far better options available.

I personally like Robshaw, have done for about 5 seasons, and beleive he should've been playing international rugby well before he has done, but can't justify taking him over others.

So just to confirm - if you make lots of tackles, it doesn't mean that you're a good player with a high workrate and should be included.

It means that you are from a poor team, with which you are therefore associated and which means that you shouldn't be included.

Wonderful.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Re Robshaw, IMO he's 7/8 down the pecking order. He doesn't offer anywhere near the fetching ability of Warbs, Rennie or Tipuric, the athleticism of Ferris, Croft, SOB, Mahony, the support play of most or the defencive abilities of Lydiate, Ferris, or Wood.
He's one of these players that offer the whole package but to a lower degree, and there are far better options available.
.

Did you watch England against SA in the 1st or 2nd test? Robhaw was absolutely fantastic on the deck, especially in the 1st. In the 2nd, he had a broken thumb, but still performed well and got some great turnover ball. With a broken thumb, that must have been hard. Out of all starting 7s over the sumer tour, I would say that Robshaw's performances were second only to Rennie's. Warburton is a great player, but hasn't been performing as of late. Tipuric is quality, granted.

I was sceptical when Robshaw was converted to 7, but he's well and truly hushed my criticism. Come on man, give credit where it's due.

George

I'm not saying that at all, I'm just saying that stats are manitpulated by team performance, do you not agree?!

If inclusion to a team is based on stats alone then there are going to be plenty of coaches sacked this season!

Bluestone

I did see the SA tour, and where I think Robshaw was his best he has been in an England shirt I still wouldn't put him into the lions team. SA had no conventional fetcher, and big ball carriers, the breakdown is where you can get at SA, as Wales, and Aus have recently!

Like I said I am a Robshaw fan, I just think others offer more!

Why does Farrell keep getting picked in these squads???

And Bluesmancometh...

I actually think Robshaw does offer as much as the others at the moment...his first test performance was monstrous...but regardless i dont think he'll travel.

Backrow is a luxury for the Lions...and several high profile very good players are going to be left at home.

Geordie

The point I'm trying to make is that he may well be as usefull, or more rounded than most, others have much more stand out abilities, and weaknesses to a point. But they can be negated by their strengths.

Theres not a person alive who can tell me that Robshaw is as Dynamic as SOB, or Croft, as strong as Ferris, or Heaslip, as mecurial at the breakdown as Warbs, supports like Rennie, has the defencive capabilities of Lydiate, offloads like Morgan.

He does all those things to a decent level but not to the same level IMO, I think he's on par with Ryan Jones. Good allrounders but won't travel barring a few injuries!

Well what we are trying to say is that in South Africa...specifically the 1st test (injury free) he did look as good as Warburton etc at the breakdown...and did look as good as Lydiate in the tackle....and showed a better engine than any of them.

He showed all the skills to a VERY high standard...

As ive said before though its irrelevant as the other"higher Profile" players will travel.

Robshaw is a poor mans Haskell.....

Not a chance he will travel unless there are 4 or 5 injuries. Nice bloke but hes not in the top 3/4 players on either flank..... Just my opinion like

rodders wrote:Robshaw is a poor mans Haskell.....

Not a chance he will travel unless there are 4 or 5 injuries. Nice bloke but hes not in the top 3/4 players on either flank..... Just my opinion like

And there in lies the problem Rodders.

We all have our opinions and all see things slightly differently...and i would go so far to say that national bias will ever so slightly creep in to that at times....

So we will all never be right...

So heres to disagreeing

PS As a complete player..i think Robshaw is probably better than Haskell...

OK in fairness Geordie I'm probably slightly exaggerating there...he might travel due to his versatility but for me there are better players on either flank so I personally wouldn't take him.... well maybe for his leadership but he certainly wouldn't be a test starter for me.

...again just an opinion, no harm done

The great thing is that the competition for back-row places is likely to raise the standard of all the candidates (and any potential bolters) in the coming season. Chris Robshaw will want to kick on from the South African tour, Sam Warburton will want to show he's better than his performances in Australia and so on. Plenty of rugby to be played between now and eventual squad announcement.

Robshawe has probably (possible bias) been the most consistent back rower in the NH last season.

He has put in performance after performance & never seems to tire.

Maybe he is a good shout for captain of the midweek side & ready to step in when required?

Good point Luckless, and exactly right. We never know what's going to happen between now and then, but the competition on the flanks is ridiculous. Hopefully there will be enough quality there to overcome Pocock!

Geordie, I agree with you unequivocally about Robshaw. I think he showed some fantastic dimensions to his game, and did them all to such a high standard. Hopefully between the AIs and 6N he can hone them.

Haskell might be a similar level of player but he's still got to prove he can play a match without silly pens

Also don't forget Robshaw's linkman skills which he will hopefully start to bring more effectively into his England game

Robshaw is a very well balanced player actually. I will be very interested to see more from him this year.

Let’s not forget lads, Elsom was always a class player and for one season he was the best in the world, but he’s been pretty poor since 2009. Maybe we won’t need someone to “out Pocock Pocock”, maybe he won’t be the ultimate openside in the world in 12 months time.

We don't need to concentrate on Pocock. If all of our forwards hit the ruck with intensity and clear out efficiently, he can be nullified. I believe we can pick a much more physical set of forwards than the Aussies, so we should concentrate on getting a very powerful and highly mobile pack on the field and hit every ruck with a vengeance. I believe we can outmuscle them at the breakdown for 80 minutes with the right players.

People seem to misunderstand how to "out Pocock Pocock" anyway. Can somebody explain to me why they think a "natural" 7 will do this? Will it be their job to try and clear out Pocock? Once Pocock gets over the ball, they won't be any good. The best players at taking out Pocock, will be the big guys who can clear out a ruck. Not a 7. If you want a 7 so that he can get to the breakdown first before him, well, I'm not sure anyone can unless we pick the 7 with the most pace.

Mikado im a big believer that if we put out a pack that are all very capable on the deck...then we wont need to out pocock pocock...

No reason why props, hookers, second rows etc shouldnt be able to do just as much damage at the breakdown.....

I think it's more key to shackle Genia and his ilk. I genuinely think he and JOC and Beale are huge threats even if we slow Aussie ball down

Good point, Geordie. Gethin Jenkins wins plenty of turnovers for Wales, but he's past his best. It wouldn't surprise me if he misses out on a Test spot, probably to Cian Healy.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mikado im a big believer that if we put out a pack that are all very capable on the deck...then we wont need to out pocock pocock...

No reason why props, hookers, second rows etc shouldnt be able to do just as much damage at the breakdown.....

Exactly. As a pack we actually will be better than Australia at the breakdown if we pick Healy, Best, Cole, O'Connell and Ryan/Gray.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Good point, Geordie. Gethin Jenkins wins plenty of turnovers for Wales, but he's past his best. It wouldn't surprise me if he misses out on a Test spot, probably to Cian Healy.

That is also one aspect of Dan Cole's game that has improved beyond belief over the last 12 months, he was probably our best 7 in the 6 nations and another reason why I think he will be seriously challenging for a starting spot when the tour comes around

The breakdown is one of the main reasons I believe Rory Best should be first choice hooker for the Lions. He and Sean O'Brien are the fetchers in the Irish national team right now.

Blimey guys, didn't mean anything by that really! All I meant was that currently, Pocock is the best 7 in the world over the ball. Once he''s over it, he's like a limpet, and bloomin' difficult to get off. Quality in the forwards will overcome him, i'm sure. Hit him low, hit him hard and you can dislodge him. Whoever gets lowest wins the contact battle at the breakdown. But, therein lies the problem. Pocock gets so low.

Rory: I don't think you need a 7 to overcome Pocock, but it would help. Definitely. But equally so would having a great physcial 6 and 8, mobile props and aggressive forwards. It's just a natural 7 is usually faster and reads the game from a different perspective to others, and can overcome him that way- playing him at his own game essentially.

killer938 wrote:

That is also one aspect of Dan Cole's game that has improved beyond belief over the last 12 months, he was probably our best 7 in the 6 nations and another reason why I think he will be seriously challenging for a starting spot when the tour comes around

Bang on. He's been brilliant on the deck.

Rory disagree that the best way to deal with Pocock is to use big guys, SA try it every year and it rarely works. Select a quick 7 and try get to the breakdown first.

Also think O'Driscoll could be important to stopping Pocock pilfering ball, he's pretty much like an extra open-side playing at 13.

Pick a big front five that can dominate and disrupt the set-piece to ensure that Pocock is going backwards. Make sure that when it's our ball at the scrum, he isn't able to break away early because his prop needs the extra support.

bluestonevedder wrote:

killer938 wrote:

That is also one aspect of Dan Cole's game that has improved beyond belief over the last 12 months, he was probably our best 7 in the 6 nations and another reason why I think he will be seriously challenging for a starting spot when the tour comes around

Bang on. He's been brilliant on the deck.

He also hasn't been bad in the scrum either, haha, even if he didn't get as much credit as Corbs during the 6 nations from certain quarters, he has been a rock there, even down in South Africa, probably one of the toughest environments you could go in to. It is crazy that there should even be an argument about who plays there but it just shows how good Jones is as well.

Yous are all mad....best way to deal with Pocock is to keep the ball off the deck....

All you do is pick Rory Best and Donnacha O'Callaghan and we can choke tackle our way to a 3-0 series win....

You don't have to be too strong if you get there first. If you get to the breakdown quickly we can get at the Aussies.

rodders wrote:Yous are all mad....best way to deal with Pocock is to keep the ball off the deck....

All you do is pick Rory Best and Donnacha O'Callaghan and we can choke tackle our way to a 3-0 series win....

Oh god....England vs Ireland 6N 2011 just came screaming back to me.........

reallybored wrote:Rory disagree that the best way to deal with Pocock is to use big guys, SA try it every year and it rarely works. Select a quick 7 and try get to the breakdown first.

Also think O'Driscoll could be important to stopping Pocock pilfering ball, he's pretty much like an extra open-side playing at 13.

Pick a big front five that can dominate and disrupt the set-piece to ensure that Pocock is going backwards. Make sure that when it's our ball at the scrum, he isn't able to break away early because his prop needs the extra support.

Teams try it with 7s and it rarely works too. Pocock is just immense. Don't forget that SA have been using Brussow at openside for years, and he is one of the best around. The only time a 7 will be needed to get to the breakdown first is off the set piece, from that point we can use our pack to dominate the breakdown and the tight exchanges. Like I said we actually have some very talented pilferers in the pack who don't play 7. If we want a quick 7 to get to the breakdown first off the set piece (not to mention the fact we don't have anyone half as good over the ball, usually they get cleared out) then who would you pick?

At this point the only two options for me are Rennie and O'Brien. The reason I don't include Robshaw is because I haven't seen him up against a top class 7 yet. Warburton needs to get back to his best, but getting blown away at the breakdown three times in a row against Pocock isn't exactly encouraging.

Thomond wrote:You don't have to be too strong if you get there first. If you get to the breakdown quickly we can get at the Aussies.

Not true Thomond. Pocock is significantly better over the ball than anyone else. McCaw is the same. They are like limpets, and almost impossible to shift when they are properly positioned. If it were as simple as getting there first then Pocock and McCaw wouldn't be the best, because they aren't the quickest 7s. What sets them apart is the fact they literally can't be moved.

But Rory if you have got to the breakdown before them and got your hands on the ball then the fact they can't be moved doesn't matter as they have to move you not the other way around.

I agree Rodders- hold the ball up in the tackle and offload like demons. Sounds perfect for Danny Care at 9 and SOB to start

Like I always say... you can't out-Pocock a Pocock. It just won't work.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Thomond wrote:You don't have to be too strong if you get there first. If you get to the breakdown quickly we can get at the Aussies.

Not true Thomond. Pocock is significantly better over the ball than anyone else. McCaw is the same. They are like limpets, and almost impossible to shift when they are properly positioned. If it were as simple as getting there first then Pocock and McCaw wouldn't be the best, because they aren't the quickest 7s. What sets them apart is the fact they literally can't be moved.

Read what Stag says, pretty much explains my point. Rodders how often do you find youself saying that?

Ah but then you have to compete with the fact that Richie etc are cheating barstewards. And I mean that in the most complimentary way

First time I said it Thomond but I think I'll use it more often...hopefully not during of after the test series though...

red_stag wrote:But Rory if you have got to the breakdown before them and got your hands on the ball then the fact they can't be moved doesn't matter as they have to move you not the other way around.

Yes, but the difference is when our players get there first, the SH opposition are pretty efficient at just hitting them at the hip and taking them off the ball. With Pocock you can't really do that, he just doesn't move. Getting there first will count for nothing if you can't actually get over the ball properly. Also, people seem to be forgetting that it isn't simply two 7s going for the ball, one will be securing possession and the other will be trying to steal, depending on who is attacking or defending.

We don't simply need someone with pace, we need someone who is actually good over the ball. We actually have some players that aren't 7s who are fantastic at that, and that is where we have the advantage.

So what we really need is a 7 who is quick to the breakdown when we are in possession, in order to secure it. Also someone who is robust. In which case the best option would be O'Brien or Rennie.

Why not both?

We don't have any 7s who are as good over the ball as Pocock. Like I said the SH teams are efficient at clearing out, I don't think we are going to be doing much damage with our opensides. However, once again the guys who have proven to be the most effective at possibly causing damage (based on recent games) are Rennie and O'Brien in that order.

Or did you mean why not both O'Brien and Rennie in the same side, CJ?

...in the same side or on the same side?

...because playing two flankers on the openside of the scrum is a stroke of genius...

Rennie and Denton did an expert double team job nullifying Pocock in the summer international.
O'Brien and Rennie would be an awesome combination. If the right doesn't get you, the left will.

I would like Rennie and Denton to start for the Lions to be honest. I think they are both fantastic players.

I rate Denton really highly but as I said in my post Rennie at 7 and SOB at 8 would be superb.

SOB can be really dangerous at the base of the Scrum and can lend a huge hand at the breakdown either clearing or Scrapping the ball up.

I would prefer clearing so he can leave the scrapping to Rennie.