The Lions One Year Out Part 2

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This is the Whiff guys thoughts on the Backs then

Lions – The Backs

On Tuesday, we looked at the forwards putting themselves forward for Lions selection. Today we see which backs should start learning the words to Power of Four, the fondly remembered Lions anthem.

Scrum Half

Already Packed his Spider-Bite Cream: Mike Phillips. At this juncture, no player is more inked in to the Lions test jersey than the big Welsh number nine. Not the most technically gifted, but a decent passer, his main strength is his running game and ability to link with his forwards. Plus, he’s already impressed on a Lions tour.

Work to do: Ben Youngs would be the obvious and desired deputy to Phillips – someone who offers something completely different, and a potential impact replacement late in matches, upping the pace and running tap penalties. He appears to have recovered his game after a difficult period. Danny Care mixes the good with the bad, but has had a fine season with Harlequins. You suspect Gatland would like Conor Murray in the panel as an insurance plan against Phillips, but he needs to show his best form. He needs to show greater speed off the base, but has a good pass once it gets moving.

Any bolters? Ospreys’ scrum half Rhys Webb is a smashing player, and looks the most capable of making a late burst.

Fly Half

Already Reading His Lonely Planet Guide: Johnny Sexton. With his goal-kicking yips behind him for Ireland, Johnny Sexton was one of the few successes of the Irish summer tour. Still not quite as regal in green as in blue, but we suspect Gatland is the sort of coach who’ll cajole the best out of him. Should be the test starter.

Work to do: We’re still not convinced by Rhys Priestland by a long way. Gatland seems to be a fan, though, even if he’s taken him off place-kicking duty for Wales. If Leigh Halfpenny cannot get into the side at full-back ahead of Rob Kearney, it will compromise his test credentials. Toby Flood and Owen Farrell offer slightly more stable talents than the hot-and-cold Welshman, and both will be on hand to provide solid back-up to Sexton should Gatland choose dependable place-kicking over more mercurial abilities.

Any bolters? A couple. A certain D. Cipriani will be back on English shores this season with Sale. Gatland was his one-time mentor back in the day at Wasps. It remains unlikely that the one-time next big thing will have the discipline and defensive willingness to push for a place on the tour, but how marvellous it would be if he could. The incumbent next-big-thing, George Ford is another who could make a late dash, but needs to depose Toby Flood at Leicester first.

Centres

Surfboard at the ready: The only centre who looks anything close to nailed-on is Wales’ Big Bopper Jamie Roberts. We had him in our ‘work to do’ section last year, but he has done plenty of that in the last twelve months. Hard runner, good hands, when he’s on song he’s close to unplayable; he’ll be a key man for the Lions and nigh on irreplaceable.

Work to do: Can Brian O’Driscoll see out his career with a victorious Lions tour? He would love nothing more. The old ledge-bag looked sprightly for Leinster but played a touch fast and loose in New Zealand. If his body holds together, he’ll surely do enough to make the plane. Oooooooooooohhh Manu Tuilagi and JJV Davies offer more - how shall we put this? - straight-line tendencies, but both would offer a serious threat to the Aussie gainline.

Any Bolters? Quality inside centres to offer competition to Roberts are thin on the ground, and it’s possible his understudy for Wales, Ashley Beck, will do likewise for the Lions. Performance in the Pro12 final underlined his quality.

Wings

Wine-tasting guide packed: George North. There’s no shortage of quality on the wings, with all four countries putting up quality players for examination, but the big, bruising Welshman is top of the bunch. No bosh-merchant, his skill, distribution and movement belie his monstrous physique.

Work to do: A large field. From Ireland there’s Keith Earls and Tommy Bowe. Earls’ ability to play centre could work to his advantage, and he has a Lions tour under his belt. Bowe excelled in 2009, and is Ireland’s best attacker. Wales’ other wing Alex Cuthbert (another monster) has timed his rise from obscurity to test class wing impeccably. Chris Ashton’s star has waned a little, but he’ll be looking to reassert himself at Saracens. And flying Dutchman (via Scotland) Tim Visser is in with a shout. He has only one Six Nations to show he can handle international rugby, but he only has the hopes of a nation riding on it, so no pressure, laddie.

Bolters: This is the most bolter-friendly position on the paddock; youngsters can quickly emerge and put themselves in the frame in a short space of time – it’s also a position where confidence and form have the biggest role to play, so Gatland might look past reputation and take a punt on those who are banging in tries. Christian Wade, Craig Gilroy and Charlie Sharples are just three of many to keep an eye on.

Full Back

Planning a visit to Ayers Rock: Another area of real depth for the Lions, with all four nations putting up a genuine contender. But Rob Kearney, after his annus mirabilis, is at the top of the tree. Outstanding performances on last Lions tour won’t be forgotten either.

Work to do: It’ll be at most two from three terrific international players. Leigh Halfpenny has a mule of a boot and while he isn’t the tallest, is a beautiful runner and dependable catcher. England’s Ben Foden is a shade off his 2010-11 form, but he is a handsome footballer in every sense of the word. Already making a bolt is Scotland’s Stuart Hogg, having been eventually let loose for Scotland this Six Nations. Greased lightning over the turf, his pace would be a real asset.

Any bolters: Felix Jones was mentioned in our comments section this time last year, but injury has been cruel to him. Gloucester’s lightning-fast Johnny May is an exciting talent, but can he break into the England team to make an impression?

Just Eleven Months To Go

A year out from the tour, the augurs are good. Wales ran Australia very close in the recent series, and were painfully unlucky to come out on the losing side in the latter two matches. Surely augmenting that side with a handful of daring Irish, granite-hewn Englishmen, and a giant peroxide-blonde Scot will tilt the balance? Warren Gatland has already been on one successful, albeit losing, tour and his task will be to deliver a harmonious, happy, competitive squad, similar to 2009. Therer’s usually little enough you can do on the tactical innovation side in such a short timeframe, so don’t expect too much variation on the Welsh run-hard-run-straight gameplan, with Mike Phillips directing a brutish pack of forwards and Sexton looking to bring the likes of George North and Tim Visser into play as much as possible. With quality scrummagers, no short of backrow options and plenty of good attacking threats in the backline, this is the Lions’ best chance of a series win since… ooooooh… 1997. Memo to all: don’t get injured.

Denton can play 6 just as well as he can play 8 though can he not? And SOB can play 6, 7 or 8.

God, a backrow of:

6. Lydiate
7. Rennie
8. SOB

has got me salivating. Or even swapping Ferris for Lydiate on the blindside. So much power and carrying capacity...can't wait to see what the starting backrow will actually be, but it's sooooooooo long to wait!

SOB, Rennie Denton is an unlikely but very valid combo

Aye Denton can play 6 but I prefer him at 8. He plays 6 for Edinburgh to leave the no. 8 berth for either Talei or McInally.

I have said on numerous posts no matter who gets picked for the Lions backrow some fantastic players will be left behind.

Scotland : Barclay, Brown, Denton, Rennie
England : Morgan, Croft, Robshaw
Wales : Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton
Ireland : Ferris, SOB, Heaslip

From that lot pick 2 Blinds, 2 Opens and a couple of Versatile 8s......

6. Ferris
7. Rennie
8. SOB



Talk about bringing the biff. Brutal combination.

George Carlin wrote:6. Ferris
7. Rennie
8. SOB

+1

It's a no brainer for me at this stage. As I said a lot of Rugby to be played before the team will be picked.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I have said on numerous posts no matter who gets picked for the Lions backrow some fantastic players will be left behind.

Scotland : Barclay, Brown, Denton, Rennie
England : Morgan, Croft, Robshaw
Wales : Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton
Ireland : Ferris, SOB, Heaslip

And Justin Tipuric, who could be taking the Wales 7 jersey if Warburton's not careful.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I have said on numerous posts no matter who gets picked for the Lions backrow some fantastic players will be left behind.

Scotland : Barclay, Brown, Denton, Rennie
England : Morgan, Croft, Robshaw
Wales : Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton
Ireland : Ferris, SOB, Heaslip

And Justin Tipuric, who could be taking the Wales 7 jersey if Warburton's not careful.

Apologies I forgot about him but you are bang on. I have been very impressed with Tipuric.

Denton can play 6 just as well as he can play 8 though can he not? And SOB can play 6, 7 or 8

He can Rory but he's not really that physical a player so if he's playing 8 you really need a big lump of a 6 like in the 6N when Scotland fielded Strockosh in order to maintain the balance. Denton's performances dropped noteably when combined with Barclay and Rennie as it was down to Denton to do a lot more work in the tight which is not where he excels. He is more Croft esque in that he works better in the wider channels where his athleticism can be utilised and his lack of raw strength is not noticeable.

Partnered with a Brown or a Ferris he may well do the job but with someone like Lydiate or Croft he may struggle as his carrying in the tight isn't up to scratch.

Luckless, you could add Tom Wood, Jordan Crane and Ryan Jones to that list as well. We are well stocked with quality backrowers, the mid week team should be a real nightmare for the Aussie scratch teams.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Denton can play 6 just as well as he can play 8 though can he not? And SOB can play 6, 7 or 8

He can Rory but he's not really that physical a player so if he's playing 8 you really need a big lump of a 6 like in the 6N when Scotland fielded Strockosh in order to maintain the balance. Denton's performances dropped noteably when combined with Barclay and Rennie as it was down to Denton to do a lot more work in the tight which is not where he excels. He is more Croft esque in that he works better in the wider channels where his athleticism can be utilised and his lack of raw strength is not noticeable.

Denton's not really that physical? I can only assume you haven't seen him play to say that Sam! He almost singlehandedly provided all of our Momentum in the 6N with the ball in hand. I shudder to think how much worse the 6N would have been for us in his absence.

He tackles very hard, is a rampaging ball carrier who is very good in contact but you don't think he's all that pysical....

I would love for you to elaborate why you don't think he's physical.

Barclay I would agree is not a renowned carrier or overly physical but he always makes his tackles. Denton had to pick up the slack in terms of our ball carrying ability but thats not because he's not physical, more to do with the fact that Barclay isn's as strong a carrier as Stroks.

I actually think that the Lions' forwards are going to be a class above their Australian counterparts come next summer. Discounting Pocock at 7, I think we are capable of fielding a better player for player starting pack than the Aussies. Without sounding arrogant, I think the scrum could be a real weapon for us.

I saw Denton in the flesh when I went to see the Ulster-Edinburgh game. The guy is a monster. He is absolutely huge, I didn't think he was as big until I saw him live. His legs were like tree trunks. I also think he is very physical, from what I have seen. He is always involved in the big collisions and rarely comes second best.

bluestonevedder wrote:I actually think that the Lions' forwards are going to be a class above their Australian counterparts come next summer. Discounting Pocock at 7, I think we are capable of fielding a better player for player starting pack than the Aussies. Without sounding arrogant, I think the scrum could be a real weapon for us.

I agree, I think we will have the better pack overall.

Having watched a bit of S15 this year, one tactic that I've noticed teams playing the Force quite often use to deal with Pocock, is to make sure that he is the tackling player, fully committed to the tackle, rather than the second player in where he is at his most dangerous. But as others have said, that still leaves Genia who is basically the heartbeat of the Oz team imo

I think Denton was probably one of the most physical players in the 6N...if not the most. Every time he got the ball he seemed to smash through the first tackle.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Having watched a bit of S15 this year, one tactic that I've noticed teams playing the Force quite often use to deal with Pocock, is to make sure that he is the tackling player, fully committed to the tackle, rather than the second player in where he is at his most dangerous. But as others have said, that still leaves Genia who is basically the heartbeat of the Oz team imo

Ferris showed how to deal with him in the RWC As, maul him and carry him back 10 yards.

Very true

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Having watched a bit of S15 this year, one tactic that I've noticed teams playing the Force quite often use to deal with Pocock, is to make sure that he is the tackling player, fully committed to the tackle, rather than the second player in where he is at his most dangerous. But as others have said, that still leaves Genia who is basically the heartbeat of the Oz team imo

Ferris showed how to deal with him in the RWC As, maul him and carry him back 10 yards.

Spoiler:

Poor old James O'Connor, never stood a chance at holding back this tide....

I would love for you to elaborate why you don't think he's physical

My apologies there should have been added "in the tight exchanges" after the bit about physicality. He works far better off the 10 than around the side of the rucks and often sits in the sweeper role for Scotland using his pace to pick off breaks in the defensive line. When asked to carry the ball around the fringes and tackle the short drives his height works against him and he is not nearly as effective as I explain in the rest of the post.

that still leaves Genia who is basically the heartbeat of the Oz team imo

Best way I've seen to deal with Genia is to field a 9 who is capable of playing the game at a higher tempo. Genia likes to mix the speed of the game and if the tempo gets away from him he goes very quiet very quickly. Couple that with the ability to deny him any set piece ball and he'll be running low on options, especially, if his sniping runs are met by Ferris or SOB etc waiting in the fringes with a Croft or Denton type sweeping across to cut down the attempted and invetiable counter attacks.

Youngs or Care then?

Ive said it before, Youngs has outplayed Genia every time I have seen them play, whether the result has been for us or not. That has to be a factor for both players and something the management should consider. If Youngs is completely off form then don't play him but if he shows anything like the form he can then I would start him. The Aussies know how much he can hurt them because he has done it in at least 3 matches already, including the last time England played them down there when we won.

You're right Killer938. Youngs does know how to play Genia at his own game. It's becoming a great rivalry between the two of them, and one that, considering their age, could entertain us for another decade. Brilliant stuff.

We could mix up Phillips and Youngs, the way Leinster do it with Boss and Reddan. Both bring different attributes and bringing one off the bench always makes an impact as the opposition have to adapt. The more physical Boss normally starts in the hostile environment of away games in the HC.

I'd start Phillips, but I'd bring Youngs on to make an impact with plenty of time on the clock. The Lions will have much better strength in depth than the Aussie's I think. We should use that advantage with smart use of the bench. It's a 22 man game.

including the last time England played them down there when we won.

His first start, a great solo try from the lineout and a man of the match award. Given his ability to attack around the fringes and having seen him drag England back against SA his selection would be an excellent way of tying in the Aus forwards giving the potentially great Lions backline time and space to attack.

I'd start Phillips, but I'd bring Youngs on to make an impact with plenty of time on the clock. The Lions will have much better strength in depth than the Aussie's I think. We should use that advantage with smart use of the bench. It's a 22 man game

23 man game by then Feckless. It's a great plan in theory but Youngs tend to play his best when he starts he doesn't bring as much impact from the bench as you'd expect.

Youngs has proven himself to be able to match, and in some games best, Genia in all games. If hes on form, i see no reason for him not to start, Care on form is another great option to have. Both are better than Philips imo.

Cian Healy, Alex Corbisiero, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross

Rory Best, Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford

Paul O'Connell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Richie Gray, Courtney Lawes, Luke Charteris

Stephen Ferris, Tom Croft, Chris Robshaw/Ross Rennie, Sam Warburton, Sean O'Brien, Dave Denton, James Haskell, Jamie Heaslip, Toby Faletau/Ben Morgan

Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Chris Cusiter

Jonathon Sexton, Toby Flood

Jamie Roberts, Jonathon Davies, Manu Tuilagi, BOD

Chris Ashton, Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney, Ben Foden, George North

Bold = 1st choice 15
Italics = bench

Some important points: Youngs & Flood WILL be the 1st choice halves (simply because they’re the best), Mikey P will be given the summer off, JD & Manu will make a pretty scary centre combo, too much competition in the BR to be 100% sure at this stage.

Given that I think England could win a test series vs Oz, I just can’t see how the Lions won’t take this 3-0.

Barney,

I think Healy and Jones would be better and don't think Hartley is 1st choice hooker.

Ferris and Lydiate are IMO ahead of Croft whilst Kearney is head and shoulders the best XV at the moment but a long way to go yet.

Foden and Halfpenny over Kearney? Jenkins over Healy? Croft/Heaslip starting in the back row? Hartley starting at hooker?

Some very strange calls there..

Also, when has Flood proved himself to be better than Sexton?

Unless injury occurs Halfpenny is a definite test starter I reckon.

I don't agree that he is a definite, but he will be pushing for a starting place. His goal kicking is world class, but I just don't think he is as good as Kearney in other aspects. If he starts I won't really be complaining though, he is a class player.

Just attack that is letting him down atm; he runs like J.Roberts when he should use his pace and step instead like Shane Williams did. That's probably where Kearney has the edge (in attack). It is highly likely the Lions selectors will also want two kickers in the team, which is why I had said I believe he will be a definite.

“I think Healy and Jones would be better and don't think Hartley is 1st choice hooker.”

“Jenkins over Healy?...Hartley starting at hooker?”

Arguably. The FR is highly competitive and my choice is as least as good as yours IMO.

“Ferris and Lydiate are IMO ahead of Croft whilst Kearney is head and shoulders the best XV”

“Foden and Halfpenny over Kearney?”

“Croft/Heaslip starting in the back row?”

Ferris arguably but IMO Croft is class (England’s only world class player) and has to start – he’d scare the life out of the aussies; Lydiate tackles well but offers less elsewhere. No 8 isn’t great at the moment, if Morgan could last 60 mins maybe he’d be a better choice. Kearney is superb under the high ball but Foden is better everywhere else. 1/2p covers the back 3 off the bench.

“Also, when has Flood proved himself to be better than Sexton?”

Everytime I’ve seen them play. FH is also not a strong position in the NH but Flood (when not injured) is the best.

1/2p's got legs and a step though- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ye4d_yco4

Morgannwg wrote:Unless injury occurs Halfpenny is a definite test starter I reckon.

I think hes a definite match day selection but not test starter over Kearney unless of course they go down the Jenkins route in 97 and his kicking gets him selected.

Jenkins wasn't the best fullback in '97. But it was Jenkins' kicks that won the series. So, although Kearney and Foden are better fullbacks, it wouldn't be completely crazy to pick 1/2p instead. Most non-Leinster supporters don't actually realize how good a kicker Kearney actually is though. I've seen him make monster kicks in high pressure situations. He just rarely takes them, with the abundance of kickers at Leinster.

It'll be interesting to see how Sextons kicking goes this year. He was up around 90% for Leinster and Ireland after his RWC yips. Still, there's no harm in having 1/2p on the wing or at fullback to take the long ones.

What people seem to forget is that Gatland is more than likely to be coach so he will favour what he knows. I expect to see plenty of Welsh players in the mix. Stand out omissions though may include Gethin, AWJ, Philipps and Priestland.

Picked today a likely side would be

Healy, Best,Jones
Gray, POC
Lydiate, Warburton, Heaslip
Care
Sexton
North, Roberts, Tuilagi, 1/2, Kearney

Its a huge back division with arguably little creativity based on speed of ball from the base. I can see Ashton or Bowe replacing 1/2 but I htink 1/2 will start somewhere for his boot

Yh thaths my point Rogue, Jenkins wasn't the best XV in Wales let alone the Lions squad but then again Townsend was the No 0 and was most reliable kicker.

I guess it depends on who will be No10 next year and how good a kicker he is.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Cian Healy, Alex Corbisiero, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross

Rory Best, Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford

Paul O'Connell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Richie Gray, Courtney Lawes, Luke Charteris

Stephen Ferris, Tom Croft, Chris Robshaw/Ross Rennie, Sam Warburton, Sean O'Brien, Dave Denton, James Haskell, Jamie Heaslip, Toby Faletau/Ben Morgan

Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Chris Cusiter

Jonathon Sexton, Toby Flood

Jamie Roberts, Jonathon Davies, Manu Tuilagi, BOD

Chris Ashton, Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney, Ben Foden, George North

Bold = 1st choice 15
Italics = bench

Some important points: Youngs & Flood WILL be the 1st choice halves (simply because they’re the best), Mikey P will be given the summer off, JD & Manu will make a pretty scary centre combo, too much competition in the BR to be 100% sure at this stage.

Given that I think England could win a test series vs Oz, I just can’t see how the Lions won’t take this 3-0.

I admire your confidence, the team you selected is weaker than the team fielded by Wales (with the exception of Preistland) against Australia and Australia had a number of key players missing! The Wales games against Australia were lost by poor team selection and tactics, the same management will be making the same mistakes again I suspect i.e., sticking with players playing poorly and not picking form players like Hook and Ian Evans, the best second row with Gray of Scotland in the 6N and RABO.

I suggest P James is a better tighthead than Jenkins, Hartley will not get picked by Gatland as his discipline is poor and he stands up in the scrum giving penalties away. POC is past it, he will be lucky to get into the Irish side with his injury. Lawes will not be in the squad for the same reason as Harley, who wants a second row who gets stripped by a young centre. Tom Croft will be 4th choice if he goes, I prefer Ryan Jones to cover the back and second row. Half backs, as long as Preistland is not there I am happy but I suspect Hook will be in the mix. Roberts is likely to be the 12 he was missed during the Wales tour. 1/2 Penny would be my my first choice 15 as he tackles which is lacking with other 15's likely to be in the squad. Alex Cuthbert is likely to be in the squad and may be Visser but I can't see Ben Morgan or C Cusiter in the squad.

Why would Jenkins be playing TH? And whilst my squad would certainly differ from Barney's, I'm not sure your comments on Croft, POC, Lawes, the team being weaker than Wales' 15, Kearney and Foden being unable to tackle (that's literally laughable) and Morgan have much grounding in fact

POC was in great form before his injury. No reason why he can't come back as strong. Also, he was one of Ireland's stand out players against Australia in the World Cup. Of course, it will be two years on from the World Cup once the Lions run out, but lets not write him off yet. I think people see an age and automatically say he's past it. To be honest, it's not a position I worry about, the Lions have great options either way.

ChequeredJersey wrote:1/2p's got legs and a step though- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ye4d_yco4

Nobody says he hasn't. It's just he doesn't use them often enough (he looks for contact).

glamorganalun wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Cian Healy, Alex Corbisiero, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross

Rory Best, Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford

Paul O'Connell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Richie Gray, Courtney Lawes, Luke Charteris

Stephen Ferris, Tom Croft, Chris Robshaw/Ross Rennie, Sam Warburton, Sean O'Brien, Dave Denton, James Haskell, Jamie Heaslip, Toby Faletau/Ben Morgan

Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Chris Cusiter

Jonathon Sexton, Toby Flood

Jamie Roberts, Jonathon Davies, Manu Tuilagi, BOD

Chris Ashton, Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney, Ben Foden, George North

Bold = 1st choice 15
Italics = bench

Some important points: Youngs & Flood WILL be the 1st choice halves (simply because they’re the best), Mikey P will be given the summer off, JD & Manu will make a pretty scary centre combo, too much competition in the BR to be 100% sure at this stage.

Given that I think England could win a test series vs Oz, I just can’t see how the Lions won’t take this 3-0.

I admire your confidence, the team you selected is weaker than the team fielded by Wales (with the exception of Preistland) against Australia and Australia had a number of key players missing! The Wales games against Australia were lost by poor team selection and tactics, the same management will be making the same mistakes again I suspect i.e., sticking with players playing poorly and not picking form players like Hook and Ian Evans, the best second row with Gray of Scotland in the 6N and RABO.

I suggest P James is a better tighthead than Jenkins, Hartley will not get picked by Gatland as his discipline is poor and he stands up in the scrum giving penalties away. POC is past it, he will be lucky to get into the Irish side with his injury. Lawes will not be in the squad for the same reason as Harley, who wants a second row who gets stripped by a young centre. Tom Croft will be 4th choice if he goes, I prefer Ryan Jones to cover the back and second row. Half backs, as long as Preistland is not there I am happy but I suspect Hook will be in the mix. Roberts is likely to be the 12 he was missed during the Wales tour. 1/2 Penny would be my my first choice 15 as he tackles which is lacking with other 15's likely to be in the squad. Alex Cuthbert is likely to be in the squad and may be Visser but I can't see Ben Morgan or C Cusiter in the squad.

"the team you selected is weaker than the team fielded by Wales" ....I had a little sob after reading that.
Hartley is not a penalty machine but many people like to think he is. Foden is excellent in defense. Croft is just class. Hook was once an excellent centre, he's never been much of a FH or FB.

Anyways, I stand by my selection given the players available:

FR- area of strength, little difference between
Gethin Jenkins, Dylan Hartley, Dan Cole and
Cian Healy, Rory Best, Adam Jones

SR- not weak but not very strong

BR- very strong; pays your money takes your choice

SH – strong (if you’re English or maybe Scottish that is)

FH – not weak but not strong; Flood > Sexton

Centre - not weak but not very strong

Back 3 – very strong; pays your money takes your choice

There's a bit of national bias in these squads. I don't think Gatland (assuming he is the main man) will take two players from the same country in certain positions (ie Cusiter and Blair or Youngs and Care). I don't think there'll be that many Scots in the party on the basis there wasn't last time and I would be very surprised (barring injury) to not see Mike Phillips making the trip.

From a Welsh point of view, I think we'll have 11 tourists as he's bound to pick guys he's worked with given the likely short time space that they will have together before they tour. I would say the Welsh guys to miss out are hookers, probably all the locks bar one, flyhalf and maybe Cuthbert.

So nailed on to travel right now:

Props: Healy, Jenkins, Jones, Cole
Hookers: Best
Lock: Gray, O'Connell
Backrow: Ferris, Warburton, Heaslip
Halfbacks: Philips, Sexton
Centres: Roberts,
Backthree: Kearney, North, Halfpenny

Not saying all of those players would necessarily start in the Test Team but they'll definitively be in the squad.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Cian Healy, Alex Corbisiero, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Dan Cole, Mike Ross

Rory Best, Dylan Hartley, Ross Ford

Paul O'Connell, Alun-Wyn Jones, Richie Gray, Courtney Lawes, Luke Charteris

Stephen Ferris, Tom Croft, Chris Robshaw/Ross Rennie, Sam Warburton, Sean O'Brien, Dave Denton, James Haskell, Jamie Heaslip, Toby Faletau/Ben Morgan

Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Chris Cusiter

Jonathon Sexton, Toby Flood

Jamie Roberts, Jonathon Davies, Manu Tuilagi, BOD

Chris Ashton, Tommy Bowe, Leigh Halfpenny, Rob Kearney, Ben Foden, George North

Bold = 1st choice 15
Italics = bench

Some important points: Youngs & Flood WILL be the 1st choice halves (simply because they’re the best), Mikey P will be given the summer off, JD & Manu will make a pretty scary centre combo, too much competition in the BR to be 100% sure at this stage.

Given that I think England could win a test series vs Oz, I just can’t see how the Lions won’t take this 3-0.

I admire your confidence, the team you selected is weaker than the team fielded by Wales (with the exception of Preistland) against Australia and Australia had a number of key players missing! The Wales games against Australia were lost by poor team selection and tactics, the same management will be making the same mistakes again I suspect i.e., sticking with players playing poorly and not picking form players like Hook and Ian Evans, the best second row with Gray of Scotland in the 6N and RABO.

I suggest P James is a better tighthead than Jenkins, Hartley will not get picked by Gatland as his discipline is poor and he stands up in the scrum giving penalties away. POC is past it, he will be lucky to get into the Irish side with his injury. Lawes will not be in the squad for the same reason as Harley, who wants a second row who gets stripped by a young centre. Tom Croft will be 4th choice if he goes, I prefer Ryan Jones to cover the back and second row. Half backs, as long as Preistland is not there I am happy but I suspect Hook will be in the mix. Roberts is likely to be the 12 he was missed during the Wales tour. 1/2 Penny would be my my first choice 15 as he tackles which is lacking with other 15's likely to be in the squad. Alex Cuthbert is likely to be in the squad and may be Visser but I can't see Ben Morgan or C Cusiter in the squad.

"the team you selected is weaker than the team fielded by Wales" ....I had a little sob after reading that.
Hartley is not a penalty machine but many people like to think he is. Foden is excellent in defense. Croft is just class. Hook was once an excellent centre, he's never been much of a FH or FB.

Anyways, I stand by my selection given the players available:

FR- area of strength, little difference between
Gethin Jenkins, Dylan Hartley, Dan Cole and
Cian Healy, Rory Best, Adam Jones

SR- not weak but not very strong

BR- very strong; pays your money takes your choice

SH – strong (if you’re English or maybe Scottish that is)

FH – not weak but not strong; Flood > Sexton

Centre - not weak but not very strong

Back 3 – very strong; pays your money takes your choice

I cannot see how you think Dylan Hartley is even close to Best - weaker in the scrum, not as accurate in the lineout and less effective in the loose. Also Ferris has systematically outplayed Croft on several occassions - both Ireland vs England and Ulster vs Leicester Tigers. If his pack isn't going forward Croft is very average. Don't think Flood will start ahead of Sexton who is more rounded, or Foden will start ahead of Kearney who is on fire at the minute.

Risca Rev wrote:There's a bit of national bias in these squads. I don't think Gatland (assuming he is the main man) will take two players from the same country in certain positions (ie Cusiter and Blair or Youngs and Care). I don't think there'll be that many Scots in the party on the basis there wasn't last time and I would be very surprised (barring injury) to not see Mike Phillips making the trip.

Risca - you'll have to explain this one for me.

Last time, there were no Scots who were the top home nations pick for their positions (and arguably, none that were even second choice) and so it was annoying but correct that few travelled. This club season and 2013 Six Nations will tell but most fans (not just Scots) would tell you that's not where Scotland is now. Scotland could legitimately claim that they have two first XV starters in Gray and Rennie.

Gatland's biggest victory will be to avoid the inevitable accusations of national bias when he picks his 37.

I posted that on the basis that I've seen squads on here with as many as 8 in. I have nothing against Scotland, but I just don't think they'll get more than 4/5 tourists. If it came down to a 50/50 call between say Priestland and Laidlaw, then he's bound to go with who he knows.

Yes, that's almost certainly true.

The kernel of what's being debated here is the difference between good individual players and players who will facilitate the Lions winning. It was pointed out in a broadsheet article a while back that whilst Scottish players over the past 5-10 years have been much liked and well respected as professionals (Chris Paterson being a great example), they are not seen as winners. This is fair enough, based on an aggregate of recent regional and international performances.

However a good coach's job (and Gatland is a good coach) is to sift through the reasons why teams lose as distinct from individual's performances in the losing team. If you don't do that, then you might as well play the entire Welsh team against the Wallabies because as a collective unit they have recently been the most successful. However, as Welsh fans now know after a 3 game series, the Welsh team in itself will most probably not be enough to win a test.

The temptation is always to defer to players from teams who as a collective have been successful and I'm sure that will happen again here, in part.

If that's true, of course, then England fans can correctly think it's a strange result that as a collective they finished as 6N runners-up but apparently as individuals they do not warrant more than (at best) 1-2 places (usually Cole and either Croft or Youngs depending on your persuasion) in a starting XXII.

All you can hope for is that Gatland uses his tactical understanding to see what combinations work and that he chooses on form.

They've been some unexpected Lions combinations that have worked brilliantly over the years. In 1989, the Wallabies had no answer to an amazing back row combination of Mike Teague, Finlay Calder and Dean Richards and a kevlar front row of David Sole, Brian Moore and Dai Young. It's the right combinations that will win it.

As Jiffy would shriek.

Gretgael1 wrote:POC was in great form before his injury. No reason why he can't come back as strong. Also, he was one of Ireland's stand out players against Australia in the World Cup. Of course, it will be two years on from the World Cup once the Lions run out, but lets not write him off yet. I think people see an age and automatically say he's past it. To be honest, it's not a position I worry about, the Lions have great options either way.

I'm pretty stunned at the amount of people writing POC off. I can only think they haven't been watching much rugby because he's arguably been the standout lock in world rugby over the past 18 months.

He's been literally carrying Ireland and Munster at times and both have struggled badly when he's been out.

I believe he'll be the first name on the test teamsheet if he can even return to 90% fitness from his latest injury. His form prior to that was the best of his career.

His reading and calling of the lineout is peerless in the NH, he wins more ball on the deck than most opensides and there's very few players, if any, who can match his workrate in the tight or lose. Australia will be very happy if he doesn't make the tour.