The Lions One Year Out Part 2

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This is the Whiff guys thoughts on the Backs then

Lions – The Backs

On Tuesday, we looked at the forwards putting themselves forward for Lions selection. Today we see which backs should start learning the words to Power of Four, the fondly remembered Lions anthem.

Scrum Half

Already Packed his Spider-Bite Cream: Mike Phillips. At this juncture, no player is more inked in to the Lions test jersey than the big Welsh number nine. Not the most technically gifted, but a decent passer, his main strength is his running game and ability to link with his forwards. Plus, he’s already impressed on a Lions tour.

Work to do: Ben Youngs would be the obvious and desired deputy to Phillips – someone who offers something completely different, and a potential impact replacement late in matches, upping the pace and running tap penalties. He appears to have recovered his game after a difficult period. Danny Care mixes the good with the bad, but has had a fine season with Harlequins. You suspect Gatland would like Conor Murray in the panel as an insurance plan against Phillips, but he needs to show his best form. He needs to show greater speed off the base, but has a good pass once it gets moving.

Any bolters? Ospreys’ scrum half Rhys Webb is a smashing player, and looks the most capable of making a late burst.

Fly Half

Already Reading His Lonely Planet Guide: Johnny Sexton. With his goal-kicking yips behind him for Ireland, Johnny Sexton was one of the few successes of the Irish summer tour. Still not quite as regal in green as in blue, but we suspect Gatland is the sort of coach who’ll cajole the best out of him. Should be the test starter.

Work to do: We’re still not convinced by Rhys Priestland by a long way. Gatland seems to be a fan, though, even if he’s taken him off place-kicking duty for Wales. If Leigh Halfpenny cannot get into the side at full-back ahead of Rob Kearney, it will compromise his test credentials. Toby Flood and Owen Farrell offer slightly more stable talents than the hot-and-cold Welshman, and both will be on hand to provide solid back-up to Sexton should Gatland choose dependable place-kicking over more mercurial abilities.

Any bolters? A couple. A certain D. Cipriani will be back on English shores this season with Sale. Gatland was his one-time mentor back in the day at Wasps. It remains unlikely that the one-time next big thing will have the discipline and defensive willingness to push for a place on the tour, but how marvellous it would be if he could. The incumbent next-big-thing, George Ford is another who could make a late dash, but needs to depose Toby Flood at Leicester first.

Centres

Surfboard at the ready: The only centre who looks anything close to nailed-on is Wales’ Big Bopper Jamie Roberts. We had him in our ‘work to do’ section last year, but he has done plenty of that in the last twelve months. Hard runner, good hands, when he’s on song he’s close to unplayable; he’ll be a key man for the Lions and nigh on irreplaceable.

Work to do: Can Brian O’Driscoll see out his career with a victorious Lions tour? He would love nothing more. The old ledge-bag looked sprightly for Leinster but played a touch fast and loose in New Zealand. If his body holds together, he’ll surely do enough to make the plane. Oooooooooooohhh Manu Tuilagi and JJV Davies offer more - how shall we put this? - straight-line tendencies, but both would offer a serious threat to the Aussie gainline.

Any Bolters? Quality inside centres to offer competition to Roberts are thin on the ground, and it’s possible his understudy for Wales, Ashley Beck, will do likewise for the Lions. Performance in the Pro12 final underlined his quality.

Wings

Wine-tasting guide packed: George North. There’s no shortage of quality on the wings, with all four countries putting up quality players for examination, but the big, bruising Welshman is top of the bunch. No bosh-merchant, his skill, distribution and movement belie his monstrous physique.

Work to do: A large field. From Ireland there’s Keith Earls and Tommy Bowe. Earls’ ability to play centre could work to his advantage, and he has a Lions tour under his belt. Bowe excelled in 2009, and is Ireland’s best attacker. Wales’ other wing Alex Cuthbert (another monster) has timed his rise from obscurity to test class wing impeccably. Chris Ashton’s star has waned a little, but he’ll be looking to reassert himself at Saracens. And flying Dutchman (via Scotland) Tim Visser is in with a shout. He has only one Six Nations to show he can handle international rugby, but he only has the hopes of a nation riding on it, so no pressure, laddie.

Bolters: This is the most bolter-friendly position on the paddock; youngsters can quickly emerge and put themselves in the frame in a short space of time – it’s also a position where confidence and form have the biggest role to play, so Gatland might look past reputation and take a punt on those who are banging in tries. Christian Wade, Craig Gilroy and Charlie Sharples are just three of many to keep an eye on.

Full Back

Planning a visit to Ayers Rock: Another area of real depth for the Lions, with all four nations putting up a genuine contender. But Rob Kearney, after his annus mirabilis, is at the top of the tree. Outstanding performances on last Lions tour won’t be forgotten either.

Work to do: It’ll be at most two from three terrific international players. Leigh Halfpenny has a mule of a boot and while he isn’t the tallest, is a beautiful runner and dependable catcher. England’s Ben Foden is a shade off his 2010-11 form, but he is a handsome footballer in every sense of the word. Already making a bolt is Scotland’s Stuart Hogg, having been eventually let loose for Scotland this Six Nations. Greased lightning over the turf, his pace would be a real asset.

Any bolters: Felix Jones was mentioned in our comments section this time last year, but injury has been cruel to him. Gloucester’s lightning-fast Johnny May is an exciting talent, but can he break into the England team to make an impression?

Just Eleven Months To Go

A year out from the tour, the augurs are good. Wales ran Australia very close in the recent series, and were painfully unlucky to come out on the losing side in the latter two matches. Surely augmenting that side with a handful of daring Irish, granite-hewn Englishmen, and a giant peroxide-blonde Scot will tilt the balance? Warren Gatland has already been on one successful, albeit losing, tour and his task will be to deliver a harmonious, happy, competitive squad, similar to 2009. Therer’s usually little enough you can do on the tactical innovation side in such a short timeframe, so don’t expect too much variation on the Welsh run-hard-run-straight gameplan, with Mike Phillips directing a brutish pack of forwards and Sexton looking to bring the likes of George North and Tim Visser into play as much as possible. With quality scrummagers, no short of backrow options and plenty of good attacking threats in the backline, this is the Lions’ best chance of a series win since… ooooooh… 1997. Memo to all: don’t get injured.

George Carlin wrote:
They've been some unexpected Lions combinations that have worked brilliantly over the years. In 1989, the Wallabies had no answer to an amazing back row combination of Mike Teague, Finlay Calder and Dean Richards and a kevlar front row of David Sole, Brian Moore and Dai Young. It's the right combinations that will win it.

That comment is bang on. When a coach sticks with "what he knows" we'll get another waste of time series like SCW's tour of NZ in 2005.

Look how well Roberts and BOD played in 2009 as another example of the right combinations.

The team I posted :
1 Cian Healy
2 Ross Ford[/b]
3 Dan Cole
4 Richie Gray
5 Paul O'Connell (Captain)
6 Stephen Ferris
7 Ross Rennie
8 Sean O'Brien (8,7)

9 Ben Youngs
10 Jonathon Sexton
11 Tim Visser
12 Jamie Roberts
13 Jonathon Davies
14 George North
15 Leigh Halfpenny

Gethin Jenkins, Rory Best, Alun-Wyn Jones, Dave Denton, Greig Laidlaw, Manu Tuilagi, Rob Kearney

This side plays to our Strengths and offers the best chance of exposing Australia's frailties.

Radge, that's what concerns me with the (expected) choice of Gatland as head coach for the tour: that, if in doubt, he'll pick a Welshman; and that the gameplan will the the same gameplan that brought Wales three defeats (albeit narrow ones) against the Wallabies last month.

I'm sure someone will respond by saying that it was Howley who was in charge for last month's Test series, but do we really think Gatland would have sat on his hands if Howley had introduced anything he didn't approve of?

I think POC is a fantastic player. One of the things I really hope for is for he and Gray to form a really good partnership. Gray could learn so much from a player like POC.

Gray's weakest area is normally the tight exchanges, he is a big powerful runner in open play, a solid tackler and pretty good at the breakdown. His pick and go's are a weakness and has been touched on he may have a weakness in Scrummaging.

Rooming with someone like POC and forming a partnership over the course of the Lions IMO will help Gray a lot and make him an even better player.

[/quote]

I cannot see how you think Dylan Hartley is even close to Best - weaker in the scrum, not as accurate in the lineout and less effective in the loose. Also Ferris has systematically outplayed Croft on several occassions - both Ireland vs England and Ulster vs Leicester Tigers. If his pack isn't going forward Croft is very average. Don't think Flood will start ahead of Sexton who is more rounded, or Foden will start ahead of Kearney who is on fire at the minute.[/quote]

Well if the pack is on the front foot then they are always going to look better. If you look at the Ulster v Leicester game last season at Ravenhill, yes Croft got completely outplayed, but then look at the England v Ireland game from the 6 nations and Croft completely outplayed Ferris, its not a coincidence that in both matches one pack completely dominated the other.

If you look at the game at Welford Road where the packs were pretty evenly matched over the course of the game, it was a very even contest between the two. They are both top quality internationals and both should be on tour in my opinion. Ferris may be better in the tight and on the back foot but Croft is better on the front foot with quick ball and of course his lineout skills are pretty much unrivaled so having both options is a great position for the Lions to be in. Of course, there are several other 6's that are in contention as well but, assuming Ferris is pretty much nailed on to go, I think having the option of Croft who provides something completely different to others means he should go as well. He has also proved that he can perform to an incredibly high standard in Lions tests as well.

I agree rugger radge. To be honest, I think that someone like POC would be a brilliant role model for any young player in the squad, but especially someone like Gray. POC has got that ferocity and intensity that I think someone like Gray would adopt. Don't get me wrong, Gray is fantastic at the moment, but if he were a little meaner, he would be unstoppable in my opinion.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think POC is a fantastic player. One of the things I really hope for is for he and Gray to form a really good partnership. Gray could learn so much from a player like POC.

Gray's weakest area is normally the tight exchanges, he is a big powerful runner in open play, a solid tackler and pretty good at the breakdown. His pick and go's are a weakness and has been touched on he may have a weakness in Scrummaging.

Rooming with someone like POC and forming a partnership over the course of the Lions IMO will help Gray a lot and make him an even better player.

I think both players would benefit from playing with each other. For me, it seem the best combination for the for second row.

IMO best Backrow combo :

Blind Sides to tour : Ferris & Croft

Ferris brings physicality, power and spine rattling tackles. He's shown time and time again an ability to perform at the highest level. Worth bringing for that Scragging tackle on Genia in the RWC alone.

Croft is a superb player too, what he lacks in Ferris' strength he makes up for in guile and he is a great line out option.

Opensides : Rennie and Warburton.

Rennie has been the stand out 7 in the Summer and in the 6N. Sure Scotland got mullered in the 6N but Rennie dealt with everything put in front of him, comfortably. Warburton is a class act too but has gone off the boil since the RWC, he'll travel I would expect if not Tipuric or Robshaw will come along, it's not as if we are struggling for Strength in depth in that position.

No.8 : SOB & Denton.

Versatility wins here, both are fantastic ball carrying 8s who can scavange on the deck to help the opensides and they are both renowned tacklers. They can also cover 6 & 7 between them should we get injuries or Gat's wants a utility backrower on the bench.

test backrow : 6. Ferris 7. Rennie 8. SOB

You know it makes sense

O’Brien plays very little rugby at 8 these days. In the last season he was pretty consistently picked and played at 7 for Ireland and Leinster, the previous year he showed his versatility and picked up MOTM awards in the HC in all 3 backrow positions (surely a first for any player in one season of cup rugby?). Would he find it that easy to flip the switch and move back to the 8th man position?

+1. Great backrow. I think most team would struggle with their physciality, both in the tackle, at the breakdown, and with ball in hand.

Mickado wrote:O’Brien plays very little rugby at 8 these days. In the last season he was pretty consistently picked and played at 7 for Ireland and Leinster, the previous year he showed his versatility and picked up MOTM awards in the HC in all 3 backrow positions (surely a first for any player in one season of cup rugby?). Would he find it that easy to flip the switch and move back to the 8th man position?

I have always thought he would make a far better 8 than Heaslip. A Number 8 pickup from a 5 meter Scrum down the Blind side with Ferris there to help him crash over..... try time I think.

I have no Idea why he doesn't get used at 8. Possibly one of the strongest players I can recall playing and his biggest sterngth IMO is his carrying ability. It doesn't get used enough I think.

I reckon he would be comfy at 8. He has played there before as you said having picked up a MOTM accolade in the process. His breakdown work has improved hugely since his transition to 7 for club and country but as I have said I would hate to see a guy of his size scrapping at the breakdown. Leave that for the likes of Rennie and Warburton in the Lions shirt.

I would rather see him crashing into the Oz midfield breaking tackles, gaining momentum and leaving the foraging work for the smaller guys. He's too much of a wrekcing machine to have fumbling about for the ball on the deck.

My way of thinking anyway.

One thing that just sprang to mind - how long is the break between the end of domestic rugby and the tour? If Leinster make the HEC and RABO finals, a not-unlikely eventuality, how will players like SOB deal with being backrow for a domestic and HEC campaign up to the very end as well as Autumn Internationals and the 6N then going straight into Lions pre-tour and tour? I don't think it should affect our choices but if it takes weeks, reputedly, to get back to normal after a World Cup, a full season plus 10 Internationals before an arguably equally gruelling tour can't be easy either

Is he not getting a Hip operation that'll keep him out untill the Autumn?

As I said in an Ideal situation this is the team I would pick. A lot of rugby to go on between now and then.

SOB is at a similar age to Johnnie Beattie who was IMO one of the best no.8s in the NH in 2010. He then had a long lay off through injury and frankly wasn't the same when he came back and hasn't been since.

Radge - at the same time, O'Brien has the perfect build for competing at the breakdown IMO. Low centre of gravity, built like a rhino and probably one of the quickest flankers in world rugby. His carrying hasn't been nearly as effective this season however apparently this may be attributed to his injury. After he returns from the surgery I hope he will be back to his destructive best with ball in hand.

Last season he was one of the best ball carriers I have ever seen in rugby. Now he is making a name for himself as a fantastic pilferer at the breakdown, and he is constantly improving here. Not to mention his huge tackle count each game. If he keeps this up he will be one of the most well balanced flankers in world rugby.

I seriously hope Ferris can keep healthy for as long as possible, because he and O'Brien on the flanks is by far our best combination.

have always thought he would make a far better 8 than Heaslip. A Number 8 pickup from a 5 meter Scrum down the Blind side with Ferris there to help him crash over..... try time I think.

There are concerns about picking a flanker at 8 against the Ozzies particularly at the scrum where there could be a lot of volitile movement. Control at the base of the scrum is critical if you're playing 8 and should not be overlooked purely on the basis of 'more firepower please'. No point taking a load of excellent props if all their good work is undone when the 8 loses possession and the Lions scrummy gets battered by Genia and the Wallaby flankers.

I wasn't specifically talking about SOB I was talking about any player from a club going for the double

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Radge - at the same time, O'Brien has the perfect build for competing at the breakdown IMO. Low centre of gravity, built like a rhino and probably one of the quickest flankers in world rugby. His carrying hasn't been nearly as effective this season however apparently this may be attributed to his injury. After he returns from the surgery I hope he will be back to his destructive best with ball in hand.

Last season he was one of the best ball carriers I have ever seen in rugby. Now he is making a name for himself as a fantastic pilferer at the breakdown, and he is constantly improving here. Not to mention his huge tackle count each game. If he keeps this up he will be one of the most well balanced flankers in world rugby.

I seriously hope Ferris can keep healthy for as long as possible, because he and O'Brien on the flanks is by far our best combination.

I agree with all of that. For me, SOB is the perfect build for competing on the ground. Since he's been giving a consistent run in the position he's excelled. He was Leinster's best player at the end of the season and Ireland's best tourist in NZ. He's not carrying as much ball any more, which would be considered his main asset, but his work on the ground stealing and slowing opposition ball has been great.

Yeah definitely, but I think he can still be used as a carrying option at 7, especially when on the attack after he secures first phase ball, our tight 5 (most of whom are excellent on the ground) can secure possession primarily. McCaw has recently become a fantastic ball carrying 7 actually, and obviously Wallace was fantastic for Ireland at 7 with ball in hand. I really hope SOB's carrying improves after his surgery, as he claims this has been affecting his explosive power in contact.

He full on jogged into contact for the first half of the season, think towards the end he just decided to throw caution to the wind for the HC finals

But isn't there a tactical side to the 8 role that a regular 8 like Heaslip would be much better at than a flanker like O'Brien, simply because of experience?

Feckless Rogue wrote:But isn't there a tactical side to the 8 role that a regular 8 like Heaslip would be much better at than a flanker like O'Brien, simply because of experience?

There certainly is, and it is often overlooked. I have no doubt O'Brien could make a good 8, but if he wanted to really focus on becoming an 8 (I don't think he should) then he should play there often, and specialise in the position. However, he has said himself he doesn't ever see himself as a number 8, but rather a flanker. He also says he doesn't mind whether he plays 6 or 7, though I have heard he has always wanted to ultimately become an openside flanker.

6) Ferris
7) O'Brien

This should be our flanking partnership for as long as possible. I wouldn't trade either of them for anyone.

The reason I tout for SOB at 8 is if I were a blind side flanker defending a 5 meter scrum, who would I rather have rampaging towards me..... Heaslip or SOB?

Well really when it comes to that, the 8s who often score from the back of the scrum are a) on the front foot and b) have a lot of pace to exploit a gap. Rarely is it brute strength in these situations, from what I have seen. I think both Heaslip and O'Brien rely on their pace, otherwise they don't make a huge amount of ground. I would actually rely on Heaslip to score in that situation over O'Brien, simply because he is very consistent in terms of his control at the scrum, and he is very dynamic off the scrum.

When you think of the best 8s like Read, Parisse, Harinordoquy, Fernandez Lobbe or even Denton. There are bigger options out there, but they are all very quick and very clever. They are certainly very physical, but they would get bested up against a prop or second row generally in terms of brute physicality. Picamoles is a little different though, he has the pace and the huge bulk to back it up.

True enough, my other reason for SOB at 8 for the Lions though is he can bring his newfound breakdown skills to the fore and assist whoever is playing 7 whether Rennie or Warburton, much like Barclay did for us when we beat Australia last month.

The reason I tout for SOB at 8 is if I were a blind side flanker defending a 5 meter scrum, who would I rather have rampaging towards me..... Heaslip or SOB?

I'd want whichever 8 had the best footballing skills and so could control the ball brilliantly at the base of the scrum giving our pack the opportunity to simply plough over. I'd back Jenkins/Healy and Cole/A Jones to smash the Aussie pack up front when driven on with the level of beef the Lions will be able to field.

Picamoles is a little different though, he has the pace and the huge bulk to back it up.

and the tendancy to knock on...

If you're looking at ability off the base then it is all about the initial control otherwise the 8 is going to be tackled as he fumbles for it by the opposition 9 or the flankers coming round if he gets away slowly. Being able to stay steady whilst achieving the one handed pick and burst is a real skill.

Picamoles actually has fantastic hands, though because he always looks for the off load he can sometimes try it when it isn't on and end up knocking the ball on. SBW is the same at times. It isn't exactly a trait though, he doesn't do knock it on that often.

Picamoles is a good player but for me he is a poor man's Parisse. A bit too much flash and not enough end product for my liking, I prefer to see an 8 provide more of the grunt work in the tight than he offers.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Picamoles is a good player but for me he is a poor man's Parisse. A bit too much flash and not enough end product for my liking, I prefer to see an 8 provide more of the grunt work in the tight than he offers.

+1

ChequeredJersey wrote:One thing that just sprang to mind - how long is the break between the end of domestic rugby and the tour?

Heineken Cup Final in Dublin - 18th May 2013

Barbarians v Lions in Hong Kong - 1st June 2013

It is exactly 2 weeks between HEC Final and Lions first match.

kunu wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Picamoles is a good player but for me he is a poor man's Parisse. A bit too much flash and not enough end product for my liking, I prefer to see an 8 provide more of the grunt work in the tight than he offers.

+1

Not sure what Picamoles you guys are watching, the guy does a ton of work in the tight. Just because he is good in the loose doesn't mean he doesn't do the donkey work. His stats tell a completely different story, or just watching him play.

Also, he isn't really anything like Parisse, more like an Alberts with a fantastic offload.

Can Gatland ask Clubs and countries to manage his likely picks with the Lions in mind?

I think Picamoles is a superb player.

Chequered I think thats unlikely. He'll make his picks and just won't pick them for that match.

I think its vital there are fresh players. I can see it happening that one or two guys who are involved in the HEC and league finals being overlooked in favour of a guy who might play for a smaller club.

Example: You could have Sean O'Brien v Chris Robshaw v Toby Falatau fighting for a place and Gats could decide that (example only not saying anything) that because Quins got knocked out of Europe in the pool stages and didn't make the playoffs that Robshaw is a better fresher option and O'Brien could be called out as a top class replacement if needed after a few weeks rest.

red_stag wrote:I think Picamoles is a superb player.

Chequered I think thats unlikely. He'll make his picks and just won't pick them for that match.

I think its vital there are fresh players. I can see it happening that one or two guys who are involved in the HEC and league finals being overlooked in favour of a guy who might play for a smaller club.

Example: You could have Sean O'Brien v Chris Robshaw v Toby Falatau fighting for a place and Gats could decide that (example only not saying anything) that because Quins got knocked out of Europe in the pool stages and didn't make the playoffs that Robshaw is a better fresher option and O'Brien could be called out as a top class replacement if needed after a few weeks rest.

So true. That's how The Lions have worked/not worked - for yonks. Throw in injury, suspension, form, Lions experience, fitness, freshness,adaptablity & suitablity - within a choosen System. These things can all override some of our Chosen Ones, when push really comes to shove.

They really have a massive juggling job on their hands, do Lions Coaches.

red_stag wrote:I think Picamoles is a superb player.

Chequered I think thats unlikely. He'll make his picks and just won't pick them for that match.

I think its vital there are fresh players. I can see it happening that one or two guys who are involved in the HEC and league finals being overlooked in favour of a guy who might play for a smaller club.

Example: You could have Sean O'Brien v Chris Robshaw v Toby Falatau fighting for a place and Gats could decide that (example only not saying anything) that because Quins got knocked out of Europe in the pool stages and didn't make the playoffs that Robshaw is a better fresher option and O'Brien could be called out as a top class replacement if needed after a few weeks rest.

Well that's Faletau and Lydiate knackered then, as they'll undoubtedly be playing in the Rabo and Amlin finals a few weeks before

Risca:

Some guys seem to forget, the Irish back row were stopped in their track in the RWC and the 6N but ruled out by some on this site, also the English back row did not do too bad either!

I am amazed that anyone who alleges to know about Rugby can suggest a Lions side with not one forward from last season's GS winners!What a fluke that was.
I am probably too old to engage in this tub thumping but would urge youngsters to engage grey matter.
Most of these "great players" were bested by Wales this year.Where did Scotland and Ireland finish?
England pushed us and I can accept their call for consideration.
Know your place.

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am amazed that anyone who alleges to know about Rugby can suggest a Lions side with not one forward from last season's GS winners!What a fluke that was.
I am probably too old to engage in this tub thumping but would urge youngsters to engage grey matter.
Most of these "great players" were bested by Wales this year.Where did Scotland and Ireland finish?
England pushed us and I can accept their call for consideration.
Know your place.

I just love & respect foightin talk, from a another experienced man. Even if it is misguided.

As for the youngsters, they love picking fantasy players and teams. Its what they do. Bless em.

Gibson wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am amazed that anyone who alleges to know about Rugby can suggest a Lions side with not one forward from last season's GS winners!What a fluke that was.
I am probably too old to engage in this tub thumping but would urge youngsters to engage grey matter.
Most of these "great players" were bested by Wales this year.Where did Scotland and Ireland finish?
England pushed us and I can accept their call for consideration.
Know your place.

I just love & respect foightin talk, from a another experienced man. Even if it is misguided.

Respect!

Taff butt,
It seems the kids are in bed. And I agree with you that the Welsh backrow shafted the Irish one at the RWC. And in the last few games between us, actually. No doubt.

So, what is your optimum backrow starting unit for the Lions? The unit and how it gels - is key. No point in picking our individual players and just slotting them in willy-nilly. Its all about the unit. And balance.

Im still not sure. But, Id have Warburton at 7 and Captain. All going well. Best natural 7 in the NH. Not sure between SOB & Ferris at 6. But Heaslip at 8. Cant see another Lion near him, experience-wise and effectively. Open to discuss it mind.

That's my call anyway. May have to shift a token Englishman in at 8 though. Or Ross Rennie at 7?

I'm still here, but I think Taff is one of the most biased posters on here so there isn't much point telling him he is wrong.

Seriously though, to the people who think the welsh back row "outplayed" the irish back row, I think there was a LOT more to it than that. I have said before, but the welsh backs are the main go-to men when they need momentum, not the back row (unlike the irish). I suppose when you have 6 foot 4 backs that is fair enough. But it gives the back row half as much work to do, and the welsh back row is known to be very defensive rather than destructive on the attack.

Meanwhile, since the irish back line is so pathetic right now our back row have a lot of work to do. So they end up getting shut down every time, because they are so spread out in terms of work load. We have no physicality in the back line, or enough pace to provide any sort of attack. We even had the best platform to attack from that we could have asked for against NZ and did nothing with it. So our team just crumbles against any decent opposition.

So yeah there is a lot more to it than the welsh back row outplaying our back row. As for the GS winners making most of the team, well yeah, they probably should. However the fact they lost three times to Australia cannot be ignored, nor can the lack of form shown by certain players (such as Warburton).

Gibson wrote:Taff butt,
It seems the kids are in bed. And I agree with you that the Welsh backrow shafted the Irish one at the RWC. And in the last few games between us, actually. No doubt.

So, what is your optimum backrow starting unit for the Lions? The unit and how it gels - is key. No point in picking our individual players and just slotting them in willy-nilly. Its all about the unit. And balance.

Im still not sure. But, Id have Warburton at 7 and Captain. All going well. Best natural 7 in the NH. Not sure between SOB & Ferris at 6. But Heaslip at 8. Cant see another Lion near him, experience-wise and effectively. Open to discuss it mind.

That's my call anyway. May have to shift a token Englishman in at 8 though. Or Ross Rennie at 7?

Gibson,I am not advocating a Welsh backrow.Far from it.None would feature for me.Ferris and SOB are immense and would get my vote(dont tell Rory!)Tipuric is better than Warbs of late.Robshaw is a very tidy player.
To have Gethin,Adam,AWJ,Luke,Evans and Davies dismissed is crass.POC was a great.He aint been so clever for a while.The clock moves on.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Gibson wrote:Taff butt,
It seems the kids are in bed. And I agree with you that the Welsh backrow shafted the Irish one at the RWC. And in the last few games between us, actually. No doubt.

So, what is your optimum backrow starting unit for the Lions? The unit and how it gels - is key. No point in picking our individual players and just slotting them in willy-nilly. Its all about the unit. And balance.

Im still not sure. But, Id have Warburton at 7 and Captain. All going well. Best natural 7 in the NH. Not sure between SOB & Ferris at 6. But Heaslip at 8. Cant see another Lion near him, experience-wise and effectively. Open to discuss it mind.

That's my call anyway. May have to shift a token Englishman in at 8 though. Or Ross Rennie at 7?

Gibson,I am not advocating a Welsh backrow.Far from it.None would feature for me.Ferris and SOB are immense and would get my vote(dont tell Rory!)Tipuric is better than Warbs of late.Robshaw is a very tidy player.
To have Gethin,Adam,AWJ,Luke,Evans and Davies dismissed is crass.POC was a great.He aint been so clever for a while.The clock moves on.

So true. Jenkins is proven WC for one. And moving to France may stamp that fact even more. On POC: Some say he has been left behind, by more dynamic, ball-carrying, passing - locks. For me, he would need to come back fully fit and improve his game, to travel. Big ask.

Tipuric/Warburton? I know Id pick Sam. For his class and leadership qualities alone.

And yes, Robshaw is big time in the mix. We need a squad full of leaders, as well as great players. He fits both bills of late.

See, this is where I am just baffled. POC before his injury was playing some of the best rugby of his life. Similar to how David Wallace was playing some of the best rugby of his life at 35 before his unfortunate injury. To say he hasn't been "clever" for a while just makes me wonder what games people are watching. The clock does indeed move on, hence why people are picking better options over the players listed. And if come the Lions tour POC is still injured or he hasn't recovered properly, he won't be selected. Simple.

Tips is the best fetcher in the NH, probably up there with the best in the world. That may seem premature, but you should watch this young man in action before you call me up on it. What may limit him from being the best is not being as destructive like the big guys like SOB, Ferris, Pocock... He isn't massive, but he has a wingers pace.

Tipuric looks like a fantastic fetcher, better than Warburton, but many welsh on here have described him as being the link man while Warburton is the breakdown specialist. I am not sure I agree, Tipuric has looked very dangerous on the ground anytime I have seen him.

Gibson wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Gibson wrote:Taff butt,
It seems the kids are in bed. And I agree with you that the Welsh backrow shafted the Irish one at the RWC. And in the last few games between us, actually. No doubt.

So, what is your optimum backrow starting unit for the Lions? The unit and how it gels - is key. No point in picking our individual players and just slotting them in willy-nilly. Its all about the unit. And balance.

Im still not sure. But, Id have Warburton at 7 and Captain. All going well. Best natural 7 in the NH. Not sure between SOB & Ferris at 6. But Heaslip at 8. Cant see another Lion near him, experience-wise and effectively. Open to discuss it mind.

That's my call anyway. May have to shift a token Englishman in at 8 though. Or Ross Rennie at 7?

Gibson,I am not advocating a Welsh backrow.Far from it.None would feature for me.Ferris and SOB are immense and would get my vote(dont tell Rory!)Tipuric is better than Warbs of late.Robshaw is a very tidy player.
To have Gethin,Adam,AWJ,Luke,Evans and Davies dismissed is crass.POC was a great.He aint been so clever for a while.The clock moves on.

So true. Jenkins is proven WC for one. And moving to France may stamp that fact even more. On POC: Some say he has been left behind, by more dynamic, ball-carrying, passing - locks. For me, he would need to come back fully fit and improve his game to travel. Big ask.

Tipuric/Warburton? I know Id pick Sam. For his class and leadership qualities alone.

I would love Sam to get the captaincy but his form and injuries have knocked him back.Tipuric is hungry and snapping at Sam's heels.
POC was fantastic.Down to Hayes?Fact is he is on a downward spiral.
For me 1/2 back is Gatland's toughest call.Nobody stands out.Coached out of them??
Webb at the Ospreys would be my dark horse.Number 10 .......................!

Poor Warbs has been injured and carrying injuries since after the world cup Rorz. He'll come back and stake a claim for the Lions no.7 jersey, i'm sure. He had a tough season with the Blues (probably because their pack was always going backwards) but usually plays out of his skin for Wales.

Its a long way to go lads. Present form, fitness and being injury-free, will sway to-and-fro, between key players. Being watching the Lions for... well, a long time now. A year out, this is just a nice harmless discussion. Fun tho.

One thing is for sure. Sexton if fit, will be at 10. No one even near him. And he's getting even better.

Morgannwg wrote:Poor Warbs has been injured and carrying injuries since after the world cup Rorz. He'll come back and stake a claim for the Lions no.7 jersey, i'm sure. He had a tough season with the Blues (probably because their pack was always going backwards) but usually plays out of his skin for Wales.

+1

Gibson wrote:Its a long way to go lads. Present form, fitness and being injury-free, will sway to-and-fro, between key players. Being watching the Lions for... well, a long time now. A year out, this is just a nice harmless discussion. Fun tho.

One thing is for sure. Sexton if fit, will be at 10. No one even near him. And he's getting even better.

As it stands you are probably right.Wait til Tovey shows his stuff and things might well change.

Warburton is a class player, in the RWC he was unplayable, probably the best 7 in the tournament. However, the injury excuse doesn't really work, he is just out of form. SOB played in NZ despite needing surgery, and now he is out until November at the earliest.