Del Potro vs Murray: Who *at their best* is a better player?

by User 774433 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 7:42 pm

29 out of the last 30 slams have been won by the Fedalovic tripoly. The only exception being of course, Juan Martin Del Potro's victory in the US Open in 2009.
Despite Del Potro being the only one to break the three's grip in slams, it has mainly been Andy Murray who has consistently threatened the top 3; in Masters, in rankings, and (sometimes) in slams.
But the fact still remains, Del Potro has bagged the big one, Murray (despite getting closer) hasn't and might not ever.
So, who, 'at their best' as I put it would be considered the better player? If they were to compete on a surface they both play well on, let's say US Open, and they were both playing their best tennis, who would you fancy to win? (Currently of course Murray is playing better tennis, while Del Potro has not looked his old self since his injury despite making solid progress.)

Gameplay:
Of course, it is very difficult to compare the ground-strokes of these two as they play with two very different styles.
Style: Andy Murray is a patient counterpuncher, he doesn't instinctively attack but waits for the right moment before pouncing. Meanwhile Del Potro's gameplan is a start contrast. He takes a huge swing and literally blasts the ball with each stroke, eager to take the initiative. Hence it is not easy to compare the two.
Serve: Del Potro has arguably a bigger first and second serve. He is a few inches taller than Murray, and uses his height to hit the ball with great pace. When in the zone returning the Del Potro serve is a huge task. Murray on the other hand has a decent first serve but for a long while his second serve has been a weakness. I am pleased to say that his second delivery has looked slightly more dangerous recently, but I still feel with his height Del P is a bigger server.
Return: If I say Del Potro is a better server, it is fair to say Murray is a better returner (of serve). Murray for me is the best returner of serve in the world joint with Djokovic, using his agility to react quickly and return a tricky serve deep with penetration. Meanwhile Del Potro, although he has a longer reach, cannot create the same angles and depth on the return compared to Murray.
Movement: Murray is a far better mover. He is faster than Del Potro, who does admittedly move well for his size, but Murray's court coverage and pace means he will be able to move much better than the Argentinian.
Groundstrokes: Both Murray and Del Potro have different baseline games, but both know how to use their respective style effectively. On the backhand side I feel Murray has the edge and can generate pace from nowhere, but Del Potro has a fearsome bludgeoning forehand which can rip apart nearly any opponent.
Variety: This is another of Murray's key strengths. While Del Potro blasts the ball with pace, which on its day is a terror no doubt, Murray has much more subtle variety in his game. He uses the dropshot very effectively and is improving at the net. On the other hand Del Potro rarely uses the dropshot and looks very uncomfortable at the net.

Rankings:
Murray is currently number 4 in the world, and has been in this position for a long period of time, stretching back to 2008 when he attained his world number 4 ranking. His highest ranking was number 2, but this was for a brief period in 2009. Meanwhile Del Potro is currently number 9 in the world. Before his wrist injury, he was number 4 in 2010, but then subsequently slipped down the rankings.
Titles:
Unlike Murray, Del Potro has won a Grand Slam Title. This came in the US Open in 2009. Murray has reached 4 finals though, but has only managed to win 1 set in these 4 matches. Nevertheless he has won far more titles overall including 8 Masters 1000 while Del Potro is yet to win a Masters 1000.

So, who is the better player?
Well consistency wise you have to give it to Murray. He has been a feature in the top 4 for around 4 years now, which is a phenomenal effort. Del Potro is yet to achieve this consistency and good results all year round, but we have to keep in mind that just when he was looking to take off he was struck by a wrist injury.
On comeback Potro has been steady, but I feel is slowly coming back to where he was. We should not look to much into Del Potro's recent loss at Wimbledon, he has never moved well on grass. Also we have to remember in the French Open he was on the verge of knocking out Federer, before being halted by a knee injury after winning the first 2 sets (unfortunately he could only win 5 more games in the final 3 sets Sad

)
But this does not answer the question posed in the title.

Who would win if they both played their 'best' level?
Earlier in the article I used the USO as an example where they both play their best tennis, and let's stick with that. Suppose they met in the the USO final... what do you think?
Murray is more consistent tournament to tournament, but when Del Potro is on fire in one tournament he is very difficult to stop. Remember his sensational obliteration of Nadal in the SF, and then his stunning hitting in the final victory against Federer? But then again Murray can play some brilliant tennis too. In Shanghai 2010 he beat Federer with the loss of only 5 games, and bagelled Nadal in the last set of Tokyo last year.
Overall however I would just give the edge to Del Potro. He might not be as consistent, and has not looked in top form since his injury, but when on fire I feel he would have too much firepower for Murray. Del Potro in 5.

by CaledonianCraig Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:04 pm

Sorry but I feel you have over-looked one key fact - their head-to head record. That stands at Andy Murray 5 Juan Martin Del Potro 1. If these two came face-to-face in a US Open Final I'd be confident of a Murray win every time. Sure Del Potro is a great player on his day but more often than not that day doesn't come.

by User 774433 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:13 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Sorry but I feel you have over-looked one key fact - their head-to head record. That stands at Andy Murray 5 Juan Martin Del Potro 1. If these two came face-to-face in a US Open Final I'd be confident of a Murray win every time.

Well they have not played in the last 2-3 years have they.
Del Potro was a late developer, hence I think the H2H gives a slightly false impression. Also when Del Potro is at his best I think he can beat nearly everyone, irrelevant of previous record.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Sure Del Potro is a great player on his day but more often than not that day doesn't come.

He was developing very nicely before his wrist injury, building up form and momentum before the injury.
Now of course it is a different story, but I believe slowly he is building and will be a huge threat in all the slams apart from Wimby (he cannot move on grass).

by invisiblecoolers Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:13 pm

As usual Great Article IMBL Hug

.

Lemme try to answer the question in a neutral view.

Who the better player is?
Very difficult to say but I guess its Del Potro right now, and y?

Ans: Del P on his best day will beat anybody on any surface [barring grass], he has proved that enough times. FO 2009 was real close, still can't figure out how Federer won that, USO 2009 DP had some luck big time, but he was a bit unlucky in FO 2009 so its kinda compensated.

Del Po has a big attacking game play, he can win points from both side, while his Forehand is devastating his DHBH sets up the winner perfectly, to add to it he got a deadly serve . His running and court coverage is spectacular for a 6ft 6' inch guy.
He doesn't have to rely on the opponent to win a match, he can win the match even if the opponent have a good day at the office.

Murray on the other hand is becoming aggressive on court, but his basic game play is very defensive which gives a lot of comfort for attacking players like Fed/Djoko, even Nadal is attacking Murray these days when they play.
Murray needs a bit of luck to topple great opponents like the current Top3 in big matches to win, he is most likely to lose against them if they play their best or have a good day at the office.

But saying all that when they play each other Murray holds the edge coz he knows how to beat Del Po and their gamestyle suits Murray. Its like Fed-Nadal match up.

Fed might be the better player or GOAT, but among the two its Nadal who will come trumps on most surface on most occasions, likewise Del Po might be the better among the two but its Murray who will come top when the play each other most times.

Injury saddened what would have been a great career for Del Po, so I am not sure whether he can hit that heights again, but Murray certainly will, this guy is so unlucky and will get his chances sooner or later, so for the moment its Del Po for me, but it might all change we have to wait n watch. thumbsup

by User 774433 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:20 pm

invisiblecoolers wrote:As usual Great Article IMBL .

Lemme try to answer the question in a neutral view.

Who the better player is?
Very difficult to say but I guess its Del Potro right now, and y?

Ans: Del P on his best day will beat anybody on any surface [barring grass], he has proved that enough times. FO 2009 was real close, still can't figure out how Federer won that, USO 2009 DP had some luck big time, but he was a bit unlucky in FO 2009 so its kinda compensated.

Del Po has a big attacking game play, he can win points from both side, while his Forehand is devastating his DHBH sets up the winner perfectly, to add to it he got a deadly serve . His running and court coverage is spectacular for a 6ft 6' inch guy.
He doesn't have to rely on the opponent to win a match, he can win the match even if the opponent have a good day at the office.

Murray on the other hand is becoming aggressive on court, but his basic game play is very defensive which gives a lot of comfort for attacking players like Fed/Djoko, even Nadal is attacking Murray these days when they play.
Murray needs a bit of luck to topple great opponents like the current Top3 in big matches to win, he is most likely to lose against them if they play their best or have a good day at the office.

But saying all that when they play each other Murray holds the edge coz he knows how to beat Del Po and their gamestyle suits Murray. Its like Fed-Nadal match up.

Fed might be the better player or GOAT, but among the two its Nadal who will come trumps on most surface on most occasions, likewise Del Po might be the better among the two but its Murray who will come top when the play each other most times.

Injury saddened what would have been a great career for Del Po, so I am not sure whether he can hit that heights again, but Murray certainly will, this guy is so unlucky and will get his chances sooner or later, so for the moment its Del Po for me, but it might all change we have to wait n watch.

Great post clap

However I don't think head 2 head is as significant as you say. Before the USO 2009 Nadal had won 66% of his matches against Del Potro and 100% in Slams. But Del Potro was so brutal he managed to render the past H2H irrelevant and play a stunning match to blast Nadal. OK Nadal might have had a abdominal strain and hence was not serving as normal, but Del Potro's hitting was simply frightening.

by Josiah Maiestas Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:35 pm

Murray will have the better results due to lack of injuries, who is better at their BEST is a pretty easy conclusion though, Juan Martin. Trouble is despite all of Juan's ferocious groundstrokes, they rarely incorporate much in the way of dimension, you can tell by his posture where he will hit. Murray's best tennis is on par with Ferrer's. Juan's best tennis won him a slam and got him to the final of the Masters Cup.

by carrieg4 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:39 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Murray's best tennis is on par with Ferrer's.

Thanks JM, I have had a shockingly bad day and needed a laugh Hug

by User 774433 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:40 pm

Carrieg, as a Murray fan what do you think?
Try to be unbiased! Wink

by carrieg4 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 8:57 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Carrieg, as a Murray fan what do you think?
Try to be unbiased!

Always try to be IMBL. If Del Potro is on his game he has the ability to blow anyone, including Murray, off the court although it is by no means a certainty that he will. I don't think he has a plan b though which could be his downfall. The variety and strength of return would be the deciding factor in my opinion. If each of them was injury free and playing to the best of their physical and mental ability I believe Murray would lead the H2H but it wouldn't all be one way traffic.

I just hope Del Potro does get back to his A game soon and I would be happy to be proven wrong.

I will say that Murray is a better player, except on clay, than Ferrer though.

by CaledonianCraig Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:04 pm

Sorry It Must Be Love but if you can give me some justification on what makes Del Potro better than Murray then I am all ears. The only area Del Potro holds sway is a slam win and it isn't exactly as if he beat Murray on the way to the title there.

If we are talking about head-to-heads - Murray wins.

If we are talking about titles won - Murray wins.

If we are talking about Masters Cup wins - Murray wins.

If we are talking about out and out consistency over a number of years - Murray wins hands down.

If we are talking about slam consistency - Murray wins.

If we are talking about rankings - Murray wins.

It is easy to point to Del Potro's injury as a reason as to why he is where he is now but I don't buy that. He has been free of that injury for over a year now and remember that Murray himself has had a wrist injury of his own that blighted his career for a few months in 2010 if I remember correctly but he got back on with it.

I can only speak from my own point of view but if Murray was to set up a slam final against Del Potro I'd be delighted and very confident.

by User 774433 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:09 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
If we are talking about head-to-heads - Murray wins.

If we are talking about titles won - Murray wins.

If we are talking about Masters Cup wins - Murray wins.

If we are talking about out and out consistency over a number of years - Murray wins hands down.

If we are talking about slam consistency - Murray wins.

If we are talking about rankings - Murray wins.

Nope, we are talking about who would win if they both played against each other at their very best.
Head2Head is not that relevant. In AO 2009 Del Potro was crushed by Federer, totally destroyed. At the time he was miles behind in the Head2Head. However he recovered to push him close at FO and beat him in USO final.
If you read my article in the second last paragraph I acknowledge what you have said above.

by lydian Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:15 pm

Murray has never pushed Fed in slams like Delboy has. Nor beaten from 2 sets down...

by CaledonianCraig Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:18 pm

Well I can only say from how I feel and that is if Murray was to face Del Potro in the US Open Final I'd deel very confidentt of a Murray win. No doubt Federer, fans would feel the same as would Djoko fans no doubt. I am waiting for Del Potro to prove he can be consistent but he has not done that yet in his career - or else we'd see him pressing the top four in the rankings.

by lydian Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:21 pm

Delboy is too inconsistent yes...but he is one hell of a dangerous floater...he would have arguably beat Roger at FO this year had his knee not decided to pack in on him...

by CaledonianCraig Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:26 pm

Perhaps it is just a case of Del Potro being a bad match-up for Federer? Certainly, Murray has not had problems with him. And consistency is key if one wants to succeed at any sport is it not?

by carrieg4 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:27 pm

lydian wrote:Murray has never pushed Fed in slams like Delboy has. Nor beaten from 2 sets down...

It's all really about match ups though. If the question was are Federer, Djokovic and Nadal better than Murray at their best then obviously yes they are currently - I'm still waiting for Murray 2.0 to emerge if it ever does. That was not the question though.

The match between Del Potro and Federer is irrelevant in a comparison between Del Potro and Murray. If DP and Murray are playing each other at their best then I would give Murray the edge due to movement, returns etc frustrating DPs gameplay. As I say not all one way traffic and, if I am proven wrong, so be it. BTW don't think DP would get the drop on Fed these days - I think he would have hung in there at the FO even without the knee.

I am still hoping that DP returns to his best so we can find out though - I like the ATP tour with him in it.

by lags72 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 9:44 pm

lydian wrote:Murray has never pushed Fed in slams like Delboy has. Nor beaten from 2 sets down...

I don't think he was ever actually two sets down lydian (2-1 to Fed after the third IIRC) but your fundamental point holds good.

As an aside to the Murray/Delpo debate : Delpo surely needs to start making some progress in reducing his h2h deficit vs Fed, currently standing at 2-12. Of itself the h2h record is not important, but it would at least be evidence that he is finally getting back to somewhere near his best. Equally, if a strong 23 year old Delpo continues to have trouble versus a 30 y.o. Fed then you might question just how high he can climb ranking wise ......

by Danny_1982 Thu 12 Jul 2012, 10:26 pm

Both of them playing as well as they can in the US open final? Murray wins, quite easily. Murray would give him a mix of pace, use his tremendous slice to get the ball down low (which Del Potro hates) and move him around the court. That's why he has a 5-1 h2h.

Delpo likes a hitting contest. That's how he beat Federer in New York. He also pummelled Nadal in the semis time because Nadal's heavy topspin sits up a treat for him to bladder it, Rosol esq. I think both players have learned how to handle him a bit more since then, just move him around.

Murray and Delpo may not have met for a while, but I believe they met a month or so before Delpo's US open win, and Murray beat him. Tactically I don't think Delpo can touch him, and Murray will win most of their meetings I think.

In terms of the bigger threat to the current top 3, that's an interesting one. I would still say Murray though. He beats the top guys far more often. I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever see him (Delpo) at slam threatening level again because it's been a while.

Let's be honest here, apart from 1 slam Murray is ahead on everything.

by Turron Thu 12 Jul 2012, 10:54 pm

"He takes a huge swing and literally blasts the ball with each stroke, eager to take the initiative."

He sounds almost like Rosol!

by User 774433 Fri 13 Jul 2012, 12:07 am

Great posts guys, very interesting analysis thumbsup

For the Murray fans, I did actually acknowledge that Murray was much more consistent in my penultimate paragraph (and as we know consistency is very important:))

As for the head 2 head argument- it's interesting. I know Murray leads and all, but I feel Del Potro at his best can blast him with power. Whether Murray's defensive play and variety would combat Del P at his best I'm not sure. Del Potro also had a very poor record against Federer and got thrashed in AO 2009, but 9 months later Fed could not stop a fully firing Del Potro. At his best Del Potro is a beast.

Turron wrote:"He takes a huge swing and literally blasts the ball with each stroke, eager to take the initiative."
He sounds almost like Rosol!

Indeed, he has a very attacking game-plan like Del Potro. But Del Potro takes a bigger swing while Rosol's shots are slightly more compact.

by CaledonianCraig Fri 13 Jul 2012, 5:39 am

Well Danny has already pointed to the evidence that Murray's game would come through as Del Potro lost to Murray just before he won the US Open (when we can all presume he was at his best at that time).

by lydian Fri 13 Jul 2012, 8:49 am

Yes but H2Hs between them don't count really do they...if Murray can beat Delpo in a slam and Delpo can beat Fed in a slam it doesn't mean Murray will beat Fed in a slam. We have seen Delpo beat Fed at USO...we saw him nearly beat Fed this year at French but for his knee...we have also seen him push Fed to the wire at French 2009. Murray has never been anywhere near beating Roger in a slam. Surely that's a better comparator than their own H2H.

by hawkeye Fri 13 Jul 2012, 9:01 am

I wonder who Federer would prefer to play in a slam. Del Potro at his best or Murray at his best?

by Calder106 Fri 13 Jul 2012, 9:30 am

lydian wrote:Yes but H2Hs between them don't count really do they...if Murray can beat Delpo in a slam and Delpo can beat Fed in a slam it doesn't mean Murray will beat Fed in a slam. We have seen Delpo beat Fed at USO...we saw him nearly beat Fed this year at French but for his knee...we have also seen him push Fed to the wire at French 2009. Murray has never been anywhere near beating Roger in a slam. Surely that's a better comparator than their own H2H.

Don't agree with that either. Given that they have not met now for a few years I don't think that H2H is a good guideline but neither do I think it is how they have matched up against Federer in slams.

It would be easy to look at Wimbledon and say Ferrer beat Del Porto in three sets but Murray beat Ferrer in four in the following round. I expect it would be possible to come with a number of other comparators using different players but I would not give credence to any of them.

Were they to meet at the USO, which I think currently could not be before the Q/F's', it would be a match that could go either way. If Murray's serve was working (i.e. around 65% first serves in) I would fancy him to win but if not then it would possibly sway to Del Porto. Given Del Potro's current apparent injury issues then the longer the match lasted the more it would favour Murray. But then again we do not know how much Murray will be affected mentally by his Wimbledon final loss. We all know what happened after his two AO final losses.

Therefore so many factors whivh really make it very hard to predict a match up between these two very good players.

by Guest Fri 13 Jul 2012, 9:34 am

Murray would win hands down. Just need to see what Ferrer recently done to Del Potro. Murray at least in 4.

I am amazed the OP would fancy Delpo in a 5th set against Murray when fitness would be the key issue.

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 9:36 am

Whilst I think that Hawkeye has written a good article, I think it's a bit daft to be basing a discussion on a theoretical basis

Fact is Del Potro has never been able to maintain his best for anything more than 10% of his matches against the Top 4. Even in his US Open win, there was an inconsistency only matched by Fed's most inconsistent Slam final ever

It never ceases to amaze me how many good judges of Tennis on these boards are seduced by the occasional great sets that DP plays. This is probably, at Slams he looks awesome against everybody outside the Top 20 and hence people get lulled into the 'DP is back"

I mean for how much longer are we going to allow a 2-year old injury as an excuse?

Yes. At his very best DP's perhaps the best in the world. Problem is this is meaningless as this usually only lasts for an hour against the very best, until the usual fitness issues / lack of movement / lack of variety, i.e. the other essentials of the game kick in

Frankly, it's a bit insulting to Murray to think that DP is in the same league. He isn't. He's not even in the same one as Tsonga or Ferrer. How many more times does he have to fail against these players for people not to realise? (and please stop saying that DP will be great at the 'next slam' - this has been said for the last year)

Now a discussion comparing Tsonga's best with Murray or any of the other Top 4 that's relevant

by User 774433 Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:04 am

Murray fans, peace peace Very Happy

If you read the penultimate paragraph I do acknowledge that Murray has been far more consistent (consistently better too Smile

), just read the 'rankings' and 'titles' sections of the article if you want proof of this.

BUT, Del Potro at his best is not an easy proposition. Danny made a great point that Murray's variety would hurt Del P, his dropshot and slice would move him around and expose the Argentinian's movement. But then again Del Potro can blast through opposition on his day...
It's a very close one. I don't think Murray would cruise. I think it would be a close 5 setter... and the result would hinge on a few points.

Btw Banb, this isn't Hawkeye's article.

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:06 am

lydian wrote:we saw him nearly beat Fed this year at French but for his knee.

I thought it was DP's wrist that had caused his delay in progress?

Or is it is hip?

Or his thigh?

Or just his general lack of ability to move around the court with any great skill needed to be a consistent Top 3 performer?

With regards to Fed it's about match ups. Fed always at his most vulnerable with those with big forehands or good returners. He can do something about the latter (as he's started to do against Murray) but will always be vulnerable to a hot Del Potro until the business end of a match

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:09 am

It Must Be Love wrote:Btw Banb, this isn't Hawkeye's article

Oopps!!

If it's any consolation, I was quite amazed at how balanced and well thought out it was for a Hawkeye one Laugh

by User 774433 Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:24 am

Thanks Banbro thumbsup

I agree that Del Potro has not yet been back to his best after his injury, but is slowly building. He is still very young and has time on his hands... but whether he can get back to his pre-injury form we don't know.

by User 774433 Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:28 am

Also another good point that Hawkeye and Lydian raised was about the top 3.
If you read the title of the article I say who 'at their best is a better player?' A Murray Del Potro match would only cover one aspect of this.

What about the rest of the top 3? Who would they fear most.
Federer for example, if he had to choose between Del P and Murray to face in the USO would probably prefer to play Del P, as Murray is more consistent match after match and is on better form.
However if it was a final, and he knew that both players would play their best... then I think he would fear the big-hitting Del Potro more.

What do you guys think?

by Guest Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:38 am

You have to give this perspective. Has Del Potro beaten Nadal, Murray or Djokovic in a 5 setter? The answer is no. That is why you need to take these factors into account. Players like Berdych and Del Potro would need to take out a Murray, Nadal or Djokovic in 3/4 sets. Anything beyond that is a no no for me.

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 11:03 am

Actually Berdy's a better shout. He actually has the ability to damage the Top 4 and has done so to Murray and Federer

On form, he's got the all round skills and enough movement to be the best on any given day

by lydian Fri 13 Jul 2012, 11:30 am

Exactly IMBL....I can tell you Nadal fears Delpo more than Murray. I would say the same for Federer too. Djokovic I dont know.

banbrotam...come on, you know Delpo's knee gave out this French Open...and yes he had time off for a career-threatening wrist injury. I dont see why that is almost a subject of fun to be pointed at? If you're pointing fingers at that then why not point finger's at Murray's back which he seems to rub everytime he loses a point.

Delpo's problem is consistency, we all know that. But if they both play to their best I think JMDP is the more devastating player.

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 12:11 pm

lydian wrote:Exactly IMBL....I can tell you Nadal fears Delpo more than Murray. I would say the same for Federer too. Djokovic I dont know.

banbrotam...come on, you know Delpo's knee gave out this French Open...and yes he had time off for a career-threatening wrist injury. I dont see why that is almost a subject of fun to be pointed at? If you're pointing fingers at that then why not point finger's at Murray's back which he seems to rub everytime he loses a point.

Delpo's problem is consistency, we all know that. But if they both play to their best I think JMDP is the more devastating player.

Murray's hilarious back troubles (or is it his thigh, leg, head or big toe? Laugh

) rarely prevent him from winning as it's a nervous tick - not really an actual occurrence

DP can't maintain his consistency when severe questions are asked - Murray and the others (including Tsonga, Ferrer and Berdych) often do. That's the difference.

We can talk about a DP that is more consistent until we're blue in the face, because it's an idealism. Like Murray serving at above 70% first serves for a tournament. Or Fed making less than 10 errors in a match

You see the weak points of the games of the Top 4 doesn't interfere with them competing well against each other - of course they're not perfect so they often lose these games

DP's problem is more marked. He's too ungainly to be able to move in a manner that will trouble the Top 4, when they are on their 'average' form. So the reason why I kind of raised my eyebrows about the 'injury' excuses is that these are a result of him constantly being out of comfort zone, when playing these player - they make him more prone to injury and niggles

People also forget, when dining out on the DP US Open win, that all the Top 6 have improved. Nadal made that happen in 2010 - when he suddenly started serving better. Then Nole took it further. Suddenly (in two out of the last three Slams anyway) Murray has at last 'got it' and now looks at home on a consistent basis at the Slams. And of course there were times during the SF and F that Fed looked like it was 2004 again

DP looks to have some better other shots, but even if fit seems miles away from the Top 4 to me. I have no reason to think that Murray and Nole in particularly wouldn't have anything other than delicious fun in running him ragged. Murray's along with Fed has the ability to break anyone's resolve merely with a classy wrong footing drop shot from almost in the crowd - that type of thing plays with the mind and then suddenly the niggles hurt a bit more

Is DP the better player on form. No. Simply because Murray at his best doesn't make errors, so DP would have to go for his shots more etc, i.e. DP would never be allowed to play his best

by Josiah Maiestas Fri 13 Jul 2012, 1:11 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:Murray would win hands down. Just need to see what Ferrer recently done to Del Potro. Murray at least in 4.

I am amazed the OP would fancy Delpo in a 5th set against Murray when fitness would be the key issue.

Ferrer has far less drops in form through a match than Murray. Once Del Po starts getting into his returns Murray would start blaming everybody but himself and be in a tug
of war. Ferrer didn't have to do that to beat Del Po and beat him very easily where Murray would need 1 or 2 TB's to scrape trough a power hitter (see his match with Karlovic
as an example).

by Guest Fri 13 Jul 2012, 1:27 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Murray would win hands down. Just need to see what Ferrer recently done to Del Potro. Murray at least in 4.

I am amazed the OP would fancy Delpo in a 5th set against Murray when fitness would be the key issue.
Ferrer has far less drops in form through a match than Murray. Once Del Po starts getting into his returns Murray would start blaming everybody but himself and be in a tug
of war. Ferrer didn't have to do that to beat Del Po and beat him very easily where Murray would need 1 or 2 TB's to scrape trough a power hitter (see his match with Karlovic
as an example).

Karlovic is on another planet with his serve. In no way could Delpo serve at the same speeds or level.

Del Potro for me relies on slips in returns from likes of Ferrer, Murray, Nadal and Djokovic.

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:24 pm

[quote="Josiah Maiestas"where Murray would need 1 or 2 TB's to scrape trough a power hitter (see his match with Karlovic
as an example).[/quote]

Laugh

Karlovic a power hitter! Now I've heard everything

Given your assertion that anyone over 6'5" is a powerhitter and that Andy struggles against such players or "scrape through" - how do you explain the Murray record against such (tall) players, which I think is near as damn it a 90% success rate over at least 25 such games

The ATP did a feature on Murray and his success over such players - but what do they know picard

Or maybe you've naively assumed that any tall player is a power hitter

Keep trying young Josh. Keep trying

by reckoner Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:27 pm

Bit patronising to people younger than you aren't you?

by Josiah Maiestas Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:32 pm

Murray and Delpo only met once at the slams and that was in 2008. Who do you think Federer and Djokovic would prefer to meet in slams out of them 2? Yes Murray does struggle somewhat with big servers, as he does often with Berdych.

ATP were talking about Murray's results, not his performances. I am talking about Murray's performances if you used your brain a bit.

by reckoner Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:33 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Murray and Delpo only met once at the slams and that was in 2008. Who do you think Federer and Djokovic would prefer to meet in slams out of them 2? Yes Murray does struggle somewhat with big servers, as he does often with Berdych.

ATP were talking about Murray's results, not his performances. I am talking about Murray's performances if you used your brain a bit.

I wouldn't worry mate, the HRT hasn't kicked in yet.

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:37 pm

reckoner wrote:Bit patronising to people younger than you aren't you?

Not as insulting as the author constantly is to Murray!! I suggest you go through the history and you will see that my reference to Josiah's youthfull, but naive exuberance is 100% justified

Other than that, we'd have to think that he's simply not a person appreciative of the skills of these great players

by reckoner Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:40 pm

That might be the case, but it's somewhat futile to take the mick out of people solely based on their youth - chances are they are going to outlive you, you know!

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:47 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Murray and Delpo only met once at the slams and that was in 2008. Who do you think Federer and Djokovic would prefer to meet in slams out of them 2? Yes Murray does struggle somewhat with big servers, as he does often with Berdych.

If the best returner in the world "struggle somewhat with big servers" then goodness knows what the others are doing Rolling Eyes

You see, you constantly make disparaging comments about Murray, without looking at the facts. Give him a big server and a poor mover anyday, rather than the other way around and he's alluded to that. His head to record shows this!!

Do you think you could actually take a look at the players that Murray has a 40% or less success ratio against? And then write with a more informed opinion

Josiah Maiestas wrote:ATP were talking about Murray's results, not his performances. I am talking about Murray's performances if you used your brain a bit.

So he has something like a 30-5 winning ratio against these players, whislt not but his "performances" are suspect in these games, because he "struggles somewhat with big servers"?? Laugh

I'm basing my opinions on facts. You're doing it on based on your liking of a players "performances" yet I need to use my "brain" a bit more? Whatever Josiah!!

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:52 pm

reckoner wrote:That might be the case, but it's somewhat futile to take the mick out of people solely based on their youth - chances are they are going to outlive you, you know!

Not if it's apparent that their youth and the subsequent arrogance that youth brings, causes them to disrespect great players. I couldn't care less if Josiah outlives me.

I've no issue with him - it's just that I have far more intelligent conversations with my 19 year old, fairly non tennis fan, about Murray and his rivals than I do with Josiah, simply because unfortunately all of our friends comments about Murray are tainted with a personal strong dislike of his game

This then means there is no chance of a fair appraisal from him and every fact is skewed to justify the dislike, i.e. typical of the 'black and white' views that some young people have (not all as Tom is great on these boards)

by banbrotam Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:54 pm

banbrotam wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:Murray and Delpo only met once at the slams and that was in 2008. Who do you think Federer and Djokovic would prefer to meet in slams out of them 2? Yes Murray does struggle somewhat with big servers, as he does often with Berdych.

If the best returner in the world "struggle somewhat with big servers" then goodness knows what the others are doing You see, you constantly make disparaging comments about Murray, without looking at the facts. Give him a big server and a poor mover anyday, rather than the other way around and he's alluded to that. His head to record shows this!!

Do you think you could actually take a look at the players that Murray has a 40% or less success ratio against? And then write with a more informed opinion

Josiah Maiestas wrote:ATP were talking about Murray's results, not his performances. I am talking about Murray's performances if you used your brain a bit.

So he has something like a 30-5 winning ratio against these players, but his "performances" are suspect in these games, because he "struggles somewhat with big servers"??

I'm basing my opinions on facts. You're doing it on based on your liking of a players "performances". Yet I need to use my "brain" a bit more? Whatever Josiah!!

by hawkeye Fri 13 Jul 2012, 3:00 pm

banbrotam. You are funny! The way you think that anyone who strays from the acceptable view that everyone in the locker room loves Andy, that Andy is nice and that he will definately win a slam one day is a biased Murray basher and also probably me! Also what do you mean by this

banbrotam wrote:

Murray's hilarious back troubles (or is it his thigh, leg, head or big toe? ) rarely prevent him from winning as it's a nervous tick - not really an actual occurrence

I thought the acceptable Murray fan line was that Murray writhes around in agony because... well because he was in agony?

Also (again). How do we know you are really 50?

by Josiah Maiestas Fri 13 Jul 2012, 3:01 pm

Banbro goes on like every single comment i've made about Murray have been unflattering. A poor delusional man who gets his knickers in a twist all too easily, where were you when I gave Murray a very good chance of beating Federer in the final?

You are taking any criticism of your fav player the way a fangirl would (such as haddie-nuff).

by Super D Boon Fri 13 Jul 2012, 3:18 pm

I watched the US Open final and it was clear as day to me that Del Po won because Federer's level was lowered. At the time you have to consider he just had kids and had just (after Wimbledon) broke Sampras' record so was on a bit of a malaise. Murray has never been fortunate enough to have either Fed or Djok playing at a reduced level.

by User 774433 Fri 13 Jul 2012, 3:42 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Banbro goes on like every single comment i've made about Murray have been unflattering. A poor delusional man who gets his knickers in a twist all too easily, where were you when I gave Murray a very good chance of beating Federer in the final?

You are taking any criticism of your fav player the way a fangirl would (such as haddie-nuff).

Guys we don't need this to get personal. thumbsup: That applies to everyone.

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