England Rugby's strategic plan was/is too overambitious

First topic message reminder :

I was reading an interesting blog from Johnny Beattie, who questioned Scotland rugby's strategic plan. The strategic plan left Beattie quite jaded and he found comfort in realising that over-ambition is not just a 'Scottish disease'.

An interesting blog, but the thing that got me jaded was the over-ambition polluting out from the England camp. The strategic plan from 2008 was to win the Six Nations four times (including two Grand Slams) and to win the RWC in 2011 and 2015.

The English rugby strategic plan 2008 to 2015 has as one of its targets "to win the World Cup in 2011 and 2015, and to win the Six Nations four times including two Grand Slams".

I put it to you, m'Lud, that they have already failed to make their rather ambitious targets. England were beaten by France in the quarter-final in 2011, and to think, they were supposed to win that tournament. Maybe nobody had told the opposition!

The problem is that as you sit in your room and write down your sporting targets and try to imagine your route to world domination, every other country in the world is trying to get better as well.

England won the 2011 Six nations on points difference, finished second in 2012 and did not make it past the 2011 RWC quarter final. I agree with Beattie. England should re-think their strategic plan. Morg's realistic strategic plan for England for between now and 2015:

1. Win at least one other Six Nations
2. Beat South Africa at home before the 2015 RWC
3. Get out of the group stages at the 2015 RWC
4. Get an English team into the Heinken Cup final before 2015

What would be your strategic plan be for England, or your own team for between now and 2015?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2012/06/are_scotland_smart_to_spell_ou.html

So is a draw to be celebrated?

Its not a win is it. Really it has more in common with a loss. You didn't realise your goals if you drew.

no its just a draw- it isnt common to a win or loss, its bang in the middle- what are you talking about?

mystiroakey wrote:wales have beaten them all bar all the sh teams- so its not as good from my pov and why you need to scale back your expectations for the welsh team

You made me miss parts of Good Morning Vietnam for this? But, those were my expectations (so they would be a bit high). We were a kick or two away from a RWC final so I want my team to go one better next time. Also the route to that requires other achievements, hence my target setting for Wales. We've got three years to do some damage!

well I did you a massive favour didnt I. You have probally seen it 100 times.

No, my first actually. I heard it was good. It's no Full Metal Jacket though.

btw celebrating an acheivment is based on fans expectations of what the acheivement is. Its up to the indivudual players or fans as to what they see as an acheivemnet or a negative- be that a win, a big win, a draw, a narrow loss or a big loss, or perhaps more importantly how the team played(in less big games).

NZ fans were gutted with the narrow win v ireland, ireland were happy enough!

England were slightly more upbeat after the draw v SA mainly because England lost the first two games- so it was a step up.

the narrow loss for wales v aus must be grinding on the team and fans- because it keeps happening

However draws could be seen as an acheivment if you only need a draw in a group game, a narrow loss can also take you through- like what france acheived v tonga.

Its not a simple case of "is a draw to be celebrated"- it is based on many factors. If Italy drew against england next 6 nations they would celebrate- if ireland got the draw v NZ they would have celebrated. Its about the teams standing in the world game and the situation the game is in!

But this is all obvious - surely! there is no black and white to this

mystiroakey wrote:

NZ fans were gutted with the narrow win v ireland, ireland were happy enough!

What did they want, 61-0?

maestegmafia wrote:Is drawing a game equal to winning or losing?

Erm, better than losing but not as good as winning.

Maybe you could have Googled that if you weren't sure

Anything other than a win is a disappointment. If you score a try to draw level and you fail to convert do you feel the same frustration as if you has scored and converted to draw level? Some teams will say yes because they didn't win. Some teams will say no because they didn't lose. Depends on what you're most used to I guess.

A draw can be encouraging

that draw was a 'sign'

gowales wrote:A draw can be encouraging

I agree if you're used to losing against an opponent. If Wales had drawn any of the tests against Oz, no doubt they would've felt frustrated that they hadn't been able to win but they would've felt encouraged by the progress. The ABs treated the win against Ireland as a loss and went out in the 3rd test to make amends. Your standards and expectations change depending on your results.

A draw in itself doesn't really mean anything. It's all about context. In rugby (unlike say football) no side genuinely goes into a game to try and get a draw.

As Kia says, it depends on your previous results against a side, but also how the game pans out. If you come from behind to snatch a draw it may feel better than having your lead wiped out.

I'd still rather draw than lose (natch), even if it is a bit of a halfway house. In terms of regaining the 4th spot in the rankings it was very handy for England and that shouldn't be sniffed at.

No, particularly as England has struggled recently against SA. A draw is a step up from a loss in that context. It's even more encouraging when you realise it was achieved with a young, largely inexperienced squad.

But you only need look at the win against Oz for England in Australia to see what a win rather than a draw can do for your confidence.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:No, particularly as England has struggled recently against SA. A draw is a step up from a loss in that context. It's even more encouraging when you realise it was achieved with a young, largely inexperienced squad.

But you only need look at the win against Oz for England in Australia to see what a win rather than a draw can do for your confidence.

The most encouraging thing for England is that the players were reportedly gutted by only drawing when they knew they could have won. But it also shows their inexperience - in the RWC '03 final, Johnson demanded the ball for an extra phase because he could see that Dawson was out of position and wanted the pass going to Jonny to be a good one. The England of 2012 didn't have enough composure to go for the extra phase and let Farrell snatch at a kick that never really looked on. It would have been interesting to see if Robshaw might have made a difference - his experience of closing matches out late in the day with Quins (Quins v Stade 2009, Quins v Stade 2011, Quins v Saints 2012, countless others) might have been enough.

But the point remains that at least 6 teams (NZ, Aus, SA, Fra, Eng, Wal) will go into this RWC cycle with a serious ambition to win the thing, and will have ambitious targets that require regular wins over the other 5. Not all of them will achieve that. Doesn't mean it's unrealistic.

Morg was one of the few Welshmen not to celebrate their several "joint second places" in the 6 nations and "joint 3rd" in the world cup, after all its only winning that is cause for celebration.
England as we know are a much more positive side, who can forget their lap of honour for not getting beaten by as much as usual by New Zealand?

True happiness is found through seeing the positives in everything, ask Steve Borthwick. he couldve let Englands results get him down, he never did. He may have looked miserable on the outside but inside he was gay and bright.
Shouldnt we all be like Steve Borthwick? He ugly, rejected by his country, an object of ridicule but he can take the positives from that and still gets on with his life. i wish I could be more like him. Just imagine how many positives he couldve taken from the loss to Wales let a lone a draw.