England v South Africa, The Oval, 1st Test Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Here we go then, England v South Africa at The Oval where the battle for Number 1 will commence. A win or draw in the series for England will see them retain that coveted spot whereas South Africa need a series win to take the crown. This will be a true battle of the World's two best Test teams. Here are the lineups:

1 Andrew Strauss (capt), 2 Alastair Cook, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Kevin Pietersen, 5 Ian Bell, 6 Ravi Bopara, 7 Matt Prior (wk), 8 Tim Bresnan, 9 Graeme Swann, 10 Stuart Broad, 11 James Anderson

England bat down to 10 with the formidable Cook opening (made 294 less than 12 months ago), KP (who walks into any team at the moment) and the best WK batsmen in the game, Matt Prior (averages over 40 and he bats at 7). Add the fact that their probable No.8 bats with an average over 40! England have probably the best all-round bowling attack in the game - 2 World-class quicks, a World-'class spinner and a very good all-rounder in Tim Bresnan who averages over 40 with the bat and under 30 with the ball. One weak link though, Ravi Bopara.

1 Graeme Smith (capt), 2 Alviro Petersen, 3 Hashim Amla, 4 Jacques Kallis, 5 AB de Villiers (wk), 6 Jacques Rudolph, 7 JP Duminy, 8 Vernon Philander, 9 Dale Steyn, 10 Morne Morkel, 11 Imran Tahir

7 specalist batsmen which includes the best no.3 in the World and the best all-rounder seen in this era. There's also Graeme Smith and De Villiers who both average a shade under 50. Then the best fast bowling attack in the World, Steyn (best bowler in the World), Morkel and Philander (average of 14.15 in 7 Tests). Weak links? Petersen isn't the best opener, Boucher the usual WK is injured and Tahir is far from the best spinner in the World.

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My series prediction: 2-0 England.

Enjoy the game!

[gboycottnut]

Well flower.. Time to sort it out. See,s we ignored the warnings of the Pakistan drubbing and are being shown where the best team in the world really are...far ahead of us right now.

Don't often agree with boynut but he is dead right on this one. Men and boys out there.

Not only were there warnings that this type of situation was going to happen from the Pakistan drubbing earlier this year, but also during the recent England V West Indies test series I was alarmed that our so-called much rated and vaunted lower batting order weren't scoring the runs when faced with what was a fairly poor bowling attack that the Windies had at their disposal.

[trebellbobaggins]

Yep, seems you were spot on. When an higher order who could bat turned up.. Our vaunted bowlers looked like Poorly controlled schoolboys.

[Duty281]

So one Test makes a series now does it?

[mystiroakey]

duty the test isnt even over mate, nothing suggests SA are the better team, certainly playing better today and yesterday- but thats it

[Duty281]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/345970.html

Remember this Test? Fairly similar to the one now with England hanging on at the end. Next game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvaus2009/engine/current/match/345971.html

Australia are then battered by 115 runs.

[Duty281]

duty the test isnt even over mate, nothing suggests SA are the better team, certainly playing better today and yesterday- but thats it

Very true.

[trebellbobaggins]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/345970.html

Remember this Test? Fairly similar to the one now with England hanging on at the end. Next game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvaus2009/engine/current/match/345971.html

Australia are then battered by 115 runs.

true but this test is setting the scene for a series and it doesn't make a pretty scene for England fans.

[gboycottnut]

Vaughn reckoned it gets tougher. The difference is we are too poor and made it look a minefield. The pitch has nothing to do with it today, they are simply better than us. We could not beat them in helpful or unhelpful conditions. The winter warned us.

CORRECT! Looking at the 2 teams for this test match, the huge difference is the greater batting depth that the South Africans have with 7 SPECIALIST batsmen. With England not having a similar batting depth available, perhaps England should consider a strategy of selecting a specialist opener to bat at number 6 to help provide them with greater stability.

[Duty281]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/345970.html

Remember this Test? Fairly similar to the one now with England hanging on at the end. Next game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvaus2009/engine/current/match/345971.html

Australia are then battered by 115 runs.

true but this test is setting the scene for a series and it doesn't make a pretty scene for England fans.

But how is this first Test any different from the first Test of another series?

[Biltong]

We're not the best team, the rankings tell you that.

[gboycottnut]

duty the test isnt even over mate, nothing suggests SA are the better team, certainly playing better today and yesterday- but thats it

Wrong there. On paper South Africa are much stronger in the batting than us as they have 7 specialist batsman whilst we only have 6.

[Duty281]

Vaughn reckoned it gets tougher. The difference is we are too poor and made it look a minefield. The pitch has nothing to do with it today, they are simply better than us. We could not beat them in helpful or unhelpful conditions. The winter warned us.

CORRECT! Looking at the 2 teams for this test match, the huge difference is the greater batting depth that the South Africans have with 7 SPECIALIST batsmen. With England not having a similar batting depth available, perhaps England should consider a strategy of selecting a specialist opener to bat at number 6 to help provide them with greater stability.

Sorry, what do you mean SA have the greater batting depth? England have 7 batsmen that average 40+ and Bopara, followed by a No.9 and No.10 that average more than South Africa's No.8.

[gboycottnut]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/345970.html

Remember this Test? Fairly similar to the one now with England hanging on at the end. Next game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvaus2009/engine/current/match/345971.html

Australia are then battered by 115 runs.

true but this test is setting the scene for a series and it doesn't make a pretty scene for England fans.

But how is this first Test any different from the first Test of another series?

Well how about this. England are playing against another team that know how to bat well in our own conditions.

[mystiroakey]

duty the test isnt even over mate, nothing suggests SA are the better team, certainly playing better today and yesterday- but thats it

Wrong there. On paper South Africa are much stronger in the batting than us as they have 7 specialist batsman whilst we only have 6.

Nope it isnt wrong. england on paper are the better team- fact

[gboycottnut]

Vaughn reckoned it gets tougher. The difference is we are too poor and made it look a minefield. The pitch has nothing to do with it today, they are simply better than us. We could not beat them in helpful or unhelpful conditions. The winter warned us.

CORRECT! Looking at the 2 teams for this test match, the huge difference is the greater batting depth that the South Africans have with 7 SPECIALIST batsmen. With England not having a similar batting depth available, perhaps England should consider a strategy of selecting a specialist opener to bat at number 6 to help provide them with greater stability.

Sorry, what do you mean SA have the greater batting depth? England have 7 batsmen that average 40+ and Bopara, followed by a No.9 and No.10 that average more than South Africa's No.8.

England may have 7 batsmen averaging 40+, but this means nothing at all because 2 of these guys are actually lower order players and are not as such genuine specialist batsmen who crucially have the technique required to cope and handle well high quality fast bowling at a test match level.

[mystiroakey]

This place is driving me mad again..

[trebellbobaggins]

We're not the best team, the rankings tell you that.

You will be by the end of this series. You are. Easily.

[mystiroakey]

cant we just congratulate the other team for once and still feel self assured about our own team!!??

[gboycottnut]

duty the test isnt even over mate, nothing suggests SA are the better team, certainly playing better today and yesterday- but thats it

Wrong there. On paper South Africa are much stronger in the batting than us as they have 7 specialist batsman whilst we only have 6.

Nope it isnt wrong. england on paper are the better team- fact

How do you come to that conclusion? Looking at these 2 teams on paper, the bowling attacks are of similar strength, with the huge difference being South Africa have a greater batting depth as they have SEVEN specialist batsmen with 3 of these guys (Smith,Petersen,Rudolph) being opening batsmen at a test/first class level. In contrast, our own batting lineup looks very fragile particularly at number 6. First we tried Bairstow this summer, but he couldn't cope against the Windies fast bowling menace Kemar Roach and now we try Bopara at 6 but it seems things just aren't going to get any better until we find a reliable solid player to bat at number 6, short of moving Prior up to 6 or even drafting in a specialist opener from county cricket such as Moore, Northeast, Carberry, Bell Drummond.

[trebellbobaggins]

So one Test makes a series now does it?

if we can face them here? expect a couple more 80 all outs on better pitches sadly.

[Duty281]

No, South Africa do not have a greater batting depth. England bat down to 10, South Africa bat down to 7. As mystiroakey says, England on paper are better.

[trebellbobaggins]

cant we just congratulate the other team for once and still feel self assured about our own team!!??

Not sure out batting depth was ever good enough to feel that way in truth.

[Duty281]

So one Test makes a series now does it?

if we can face them here? expect a couple more 80 all outs on better pitches sadly.

So we've had one innings of 385 under a mostly cloudy sky and that equates to 80 all out on a minefield does it? Interesting logic...

[gboycottnut]

So one Test makes a series now does it?

if we can face them here? expect a couple more 80 all outs on better pitches sadly.

So we've had one innings of 385 under a mostly cloudy sky and that equates to 80 all out on a minefield does it? Interesting logic...

I don't think that the cloudy sky was responsible for England posting only 385. The South African bowling was mainly responsible for this, with the help of some poor shots from our batsmen.

[mystiroakey]

bowling was aided by the conditions- as you may have witnessed(i certainly did) england were posing just as many questions at the start of the SA innings before the rain delay

[gboycottnut]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/345970.html

Remember this Test? Fairly similar to the one now with England hanging on at the end. Next game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/engvaus2009/engine/current/match/345971.html

Australia are then battered by 115 runs.

true but this test is setting the scene for a series and it doesn't make a pretty scene for England fans.

But how is this first Test any different from the first Test of another series?

[trebellbobaggins]

England are getting stuffed? SA are the new dominant force in cricket? quite different.

[trebellbobaggins]

No, South Africa do not have a greater batting depth. England bat down to 10, South Africa bat down to 7. As mystiroakey says, England on paper are better.

sadly for us, they do not play cricket on paper.

[gboycottnut]

No, South Africa do not have a greater batting depth. England bat down to 10, South Africa bat down to 7. As mystiroakey says, England on paper are better.

But this means nothing if only 6 of them are actual proper specialist batsmen, as only a proper and solid technique will help in dealing with high quality sustained pace bowling, as opposed to flashy type of players with questionable techniques against pace bowling which is what players like Bopara, Swann and Anderson have around them.

[mystiroakey]

the proof is only in the pudding lads- just wait..

[Duty281]

If South Africa had a World-Class spinner then I'd back them to win..but they don't so I'm backing a draw.

[mystiroakey]

this has draw writen all over it! i will eat a hat if its not!

[gboycottnut]

If South Africa had a World-Class spinner then I'd back them to win..but they don't so I'm backing a draw.

Well they don't need a world class spinner as they have a world class bowling attack. The West Indies proved in the 1980's that a team can conquer the world without having a world class spinner.

[trebellbobaggins]

especially against a batting line up led by a badly out of form Captain that is very long way from world class.

[gboycottnut]

this has draw writen all over it! i will eat a hat if its not!

Didn't Geoff Boycott say something similar early this year when England were playing against Pakistan, where I think he said that he will sell his houses if England don't win or hang on for a draw.

[mystiroakey]

i didnt say it back then though- however i am saying it know!! this is in england- that should be the key

[trebellbobaggins]

i'm sort of enjoying the reality of our sub par winter come home to roost.

it needs to if we are ever to compete with the best teams. Flower needs a very good spring clean.

[chrisss]

especially against a batting line up led by a badly out of form Captain that is very long way from world class.

So scoring a duck after scoring two centuries against the Windies and a century in his last match for Middlesex = being "badly out of form"?

[gboycottnut]

especially against a batting line up led by a badly out of form Captain that is very long way from world class.

A badly out of form captain who can only score a big hundred very occasionally and at very rare times mainly when facing a very mediocre mickey mouse bowling attack, but with frustratingly very low and non-existant scores at all other times when having to face a genuine high quality bowling attack.

[trebellbobaggins]

yeah he is failing when it matters. The windies doesn't count. It's hurt us that he's still here because of it really. Compare him to the truly world class Smith.

[gboycottnut]

yeah he is failing when it matters. The windies doesn't count. It's hurt us that he's still here because of it really. Compare him to the truly world class Smith.

Yep, those 2 fake hundreds he made against the Windies earlier this summer have now come back to haunt England now.

[trebellbobaggins]

not having sky so i cannot see this farce is suddenly a great decision. Good to know i am not the only Jonah then, still bad without me.

[gboycottnut]

not having sky so i cannot see this farce is suddenly a great decision. Good to know i am not the only Jonah then, still bad without me.

Sky have given a free Sky Sports viewing pass/promotion offer to every non Sky Sports Sky customer for this weekend so that it allows for the watching of this farce. Frustratingly this is very bad timing to get to watch a day's live cricket this summer. They could have done this free promotion offer earlier this summer when England were on top playing against another team which is even worse than ours and doesn't know how to play test cricket in our own conditions.

[Duty281]

South Africa to declare at tea tomorrow 250 ahead. England to make around 350/5 before the handshake on Monday. Draw no question. Can't wait for Leeds in the 2nd Test, should favour the bowlers a bit more.

[gboycottnut]

South Africa to declare at tea tomorrow 250 ahead. England to make around 350/5 before the handshake on Monday. Draw no question. Can't wait for Leeds in the 2nd Test, should favour the bowlers a bit more.

More likely to be this, South Africa will bat until tea tommorrow without losing a wicket with Amla getting near to 400 runs. South Africa's captain then takes pity on England's bowlers and decides to declare early so that that they can spared any more further torture. But then South Africa's pace bowlers having had almost 2 days of rest come charging in and bowl out England in 1 and a bit session just like in 1994 when Messrs Ambrose and Walsh skittled England's batting for a very paltry and miserly total of only 45 odd runs.

[msp83]

Seems like a world away from my previous comment in this post. Then England was fighting hard, establishing their grip in the match after a rather shaky first over. Sadly for England, they haven't won a single session on days 2 and 3, and they have been completely outplayed over the last couple of days.
Is it the end of England glory under Andrew Strauss? I don't think so. South Africa, on any condition, is a tough opposition for any side in the world, and they are just proving that yet again here. Their batting lineup is real class. Although England's stronger lower order that again proved its worth by scoring 99 runs for the 7th 8th and 9th wickets give them an advantage, South Africa's top 7 I believe is better. Smith is a touch above Strauss's class, so is Amla over Trott and De Villiers over Bell. Kallis's relatively poor record in England may even things with Pietersen to some extend, but Rudolph at 6 is a better option than Bopara, and despite his struggles against Swann, JP Duminy is pretty good.
So unlike other sides England roled over in recent times, the South Africans have a much better lineup. So Their bowling strength wouldn't work always on flatter tracks such s this.
Don't think this match has gone away from England as yet, if they withstand the pressure, a draw is well within their grasp. And don't forget South Africa is never far from a choke!!!!!.

[mystiroakey]

msp- you didnt mention cook in all that!!

[gboycottnut]

Seems like a world away from my previous comment in this post. Then England was fighting hard, establishing their grip in the match after a rather shaky first over. Sadly for England, they haven't won a single session on days 2 and 3, and they have been completely outplayed over the last couple of days.
Is it the end of England glory under Andrew Strauss? I don't think so. South Africa, on any condition, is a tough opposition for any side in the world, and they are just proving that yet again here. Their batting lineup is real class. Although England's stronger lower order that again proved its worth by scoring 99 runs for the 7th 8th and 9th wickets give them an advantage, South Africa's top 7 I believe is better. Smith is a touch above Strauss's class, so is Amla over Trott and De Villiers over Bell. Kallis's relatively poor record in England may even things with Pietersen to some extend, but Rudolph at 6 is a better option than Bopara, and despite his struggles against Swann, JP Duminy is pretty good.
So unlike other sides England roled over in recent times, the South Africans have a much better lineup. So Their bowling strength wouldn't work always on flatter tracks such s this.
Don't think this match has gone away from England as yet, if they withstand the pressure, a draw is well within their grasp. And don't forget South Africa is never far from a choke!!!!!.

But this is what and many would call proper cricket, rather than a crash bang wallop style of fast food cricket which is what a ODI /T20 match is. If only we had Devon Malcolm bowling for us again the situation at the end of today might have been different!

[Galted]

Don't know what all the hysteria is about - game was roughly even after day 2 & SA's batsmen played out of their skins on day 3 which has been the best day for batting (as was predicted) - it happens. Draw's the most likely result, a single victory might be enough for the series win & often it boils down to one or two sessions of carnage - either attack is capable of it.

[mystiroakey]

galted i am hoping people arnt staying away becuase of gb and trebbs(allthough we know why tebbs does it- but it just becomes abit draining if its in sterio).. They are miles of base. its two days of test cricket thats all.

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