England v South Africa, The Oval, 1st Test Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Here we go then, England v South Africa at The Oval where the battle for Number 1 will commence. A win or draw in the series for England will see them retain that coveted spot whereas South Africa need a series win to take the crown. This will be a true battle of the World's two best Test teams. Here are the lineups:

1 Andrew Strauss (capt), 2 Alastair Cook, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Kevin Pietersen, 5 Ian Bell, 6 Ravi Bopara, 7 Matt Prior (wk), 8 Tim Bresnan, 9 Graeme Swann, 10 Stuart Broad, 11 James Anderson

England bat down to 10 with the formidable Cook opening (made 294 less than 12 months ago), KP (who walks into any team at the moment) and the best WK batsmen in the game, Matt Prior (averages over 40 and he bats at 7). Add the fact that their probable No.8 bats with an average over 40! England have probably the best all-round bowling attack in the game - 2 World-class quicks, a World-'class spinner and a very good all-rounder in Tim Bresnan who averages over 40 with the bat and under 30 with the ball. One weak link though, Ravi Bopara.

1 Graeme Smith (capt), 2 Alviro Petersen, 3 Hashim Amla, 4 Jacques Kallis, 5 AB de Villiers (wk), 6 Jacques Rudolph, 7 JP Duminy, 8 Vernon Philander, 9 Dale Steyn, 10 Morne Morkel, 11 Imran Tahir

7 specalist batsmen which includes the best no.3 in the World and the best all-rounder seen in this era. There's also Graeme Smith and De Villiers who both average a shade under 50. Then the best fast bowling attack in the World, Steyn (best bowler in the World), Morkel and Philander (average of 14.15 in 7 Tests). Weak links? Petersen isn't the best opener, Boucher the usual WK is injured and Tahir is far from the best spinner in the World.

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My series prediction: 2-0 England.

Enjoy the game!

[mystiroakey]

so then if bop can save this game- are peops gonna get over his inclusion..

Obviously thats a big IF!!

[Biltong]

Hell, I am happu for Ernie, I was wondering if he will ever get another major.

That's his 4th now.

[mystiroakey]

he was allways to good for 3!!

so its deserved in my mind.

[liverbnz]

Will those that had a moan at me and Trebs on friday now admit that we were right to hold such pessimism?

3-0 SA this series. Easy.

Come on now Fists, you're either doing that reverse psychology rubbish that's been dogging these match threads or you're being genuine. Which one is it?

[LivinginItaly]

so then if bop can save this game- are peops gonna get over his inclusion..

Obviously thats a big IF!!

Well he certainly has the opportunity to silence some of the critics and possibly make a career defining score in this innings. To be honest he can't do much worse than the others, Cook excepted who was out to a good one first up, as they have all succumbed to the pressure of the situation and given their wickets away.

[Duty281]

4 more to the England!

[Duty281]

Another over survived by England, easy, easy, easy!

[liverbnz]

England can still save this if the remaining batsman don't just chuck their wickets away like the majority have already. The pitch is still offering very little for the seamers and Tahir is not the greatest threat in the world.

Just bat sensible.

[dyrewolfe]

Well, both Bell and Bopara have now outscored Cook and Trott and will likely outscore KP too (assuming this post doesn't jinx them).

If, fingers crossed, no more wickets fall today, England still have a fighting chance, but these two will need to bat well past lunch tomorrow, for us to save the game.

[Guest]

dont wanna jinx it but ravi and belly putting together a decent partnership here..

JP will also be effective tomorrow if given the ball.

[LivinginItaly]

Well if these two can last tonight and for part of tomorrow one positive could be that runs will also be important. This I feel will be better for our lower order as I don't think they have the mental capacity to just bat time.

[Guest]

Prior does and has done in the past, however i always worry about swanny and broad with the bat when pressure is on.

[Biltong]

We seriously need a wicket here.

[Biltong]

Too late, stumps day4

[Guest]

stumps...

no doubt about it, saffer's day (amla's day)!!

[DHLS07]

What a performance from Amla. Huge few days for the Proteas. You have to admire them as a team. Kallis has been superb with bat and ball.

[Duty281]

Well done South Africa but we can save this. It's still a flat pitch doing little with a now softish ball. If we're 4 or 5 down at lunch we can do it. What's those immortal words that Churchill uttered? We will never surrender! Come on England!

[DHLS07]

My money is on Bopara being out within the first 15 minutes tomorrow, with Bell following before lunch.

[trebellbobaggins]

Let this series finish winless then Strauss must do the right thing and make way for in form players.

Can you nominate a suggestion as to who could replace Andrew Strauss at opener? Then I'll take your comment on board.

Well if we don't have anyone that can replace a constantly failing against top teams opener then we can expect to be in the bottom of the rankings pretty soon I fear.

[Guest]

im sorry but this is ridiclous....

Its one game for christ's sake....talk about ridiclous knee-jerking!

and your talk about sliding down the rankings is complete tosh!

[trebellbobaggins]

But it isn't. This tendency to fold has been creeping in and was cruely exposed by Pakistan. This has been on the cards.

[Guest]

Pakistan was on dustbowls this isnt...Ajmal is better than Tahir!!!!!!!!!!

The kneejerking needs to stop ITS ONE GAME!

[gboycottnut]

Well done South Africa but we can save this. It's still a flat pitch doing little with a now softish ball. If we're 4 or 5 down at lunch we can do it. What's those immortal words that Churchill uttered? We will never surrender! Come on England!

It may be a flat pitch but South Africa have got the pace bowlers to get whatever ounce of pace and bounce is available to bowl out our hopeless and vastly overrated bunch of players.

[trebellbobaggins]

Well fair enough but I fear it isn't. We will soon see. If we're in a mess by the end of this series others might start to wonder. If India stuff us on a dust bowl then others might even agree.

[Guest]

well lets not knee-jerk just yet, like i said its only one game so any over=reacting at this stage is ridiclous.

[gboycottnut]

Pakistan was on dustbowls this isnt...Ajmal is better than Tahir!!!!!!!!!!

The kneejerking needs to stop ITS ONE GAME!

But Steyn and co are better pace bowlers than the Pakistani pace bowlers of Umar Gul and co that rolled over England's overrated bunch of players who annoyingly it seems can only bat well against ordinary mediocre bowling attacks like the recent West Indian bowling attack.

[Duty281]

Well done South Africa but we can save this. It's still a flat pitch doing little with a now softish ball. If we're 4 or 5 down at lunch we can do it. What's those immortal words that Churchill uttered? We will never surrender! Come on England!

It may be a flat pitch but South Africa have got the pace bowlers to get whatever ounce of pace and bounce is available to bowl out our hopeless and vastly overrated bunch of players.

Would you care to explain how we're overrated? We'v lost only 1 Test Series since May 2009.

[trebellbobaggins]

I hope they can turn it around. They need to find some fight and most importantly play with their heads. If you give wickets away to the best n the world you will lose every time.

[Guest]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

[gboycottnut]

Well done South Africa but we can save this. It's still a flat pitch doing little with a now softish ball. If we're 4 or 5 down at lunch we can do it. What's those immortal words that Churchill uttered? We will never surrender! Come on England!

It may be a flat pitch but South Africa have got the pace bowlers to get whatever ounce of pace and bounce is available to bowl out our hopeless and vastly overrated bunch of players.

Would you care to explain how we're overrated? We'v lost only 1 Test Series since May 2009.

Well in terms of batting, our batsmen just can't adapt well enough to the wicket and the opposition bowlers, whilst our own bowlers can't get genuine quality test match calibre batsmen out on flat wickets and without the aid of cloud cover.

[guildfordbat]

Well if these two can last tonight and for part of tomorrow one positive could be that runs will also be important. This I feel will be better for our lower order as I don't think they have the mental capacity to just bat time.

Living in Italy - assuming we get that far, I think it'll take us until around tea tomorrow to overtake South Africa's score. That's a long time to last and we'll have to keep going after that for some time to get an uncatchable lead. Very, very difficult. I fear an innings defeat being confirmed around mid afternoon.

In the very unlikely event that we pull off a draw, it might be fun to see what the regular Bopara bashers here have to say.

Btw, has anyone on this thread commented on de Villiers' keeping? Seven catches so far and hardly noticed - that says quite a lot.

[Duty281]

Well done South Africa but we can save this. It's still a flat pitch doing little with a now softish ball. If we're 4 or 5 down at lunch we can do it. What's those immortal words that Churchill uttered? We will never surrender! Come on England!

It may be a flat pitch but South Africa have got the pace bowlers to get whatever ounce of pace and bounce is available to bowl out our hopeless and vastly overrated bunch of players.

Would you care to explain how we're overrated? We'v lost only 1 Test Series since May 2009.

Well in terms of batting, our batsmen just can't adapt well enough to the wicket and the opposition bowlers, whilst our own bowlers can't get genuine quality test match calibre batsmen out on flat wickets and without the aid of cloud cover.

Clearly you missed when we went to the UAE when England bowled brilliantly on flat decks. Our batting only struggles in one area; the subcontinent.

[gboycottnut]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

It is a bit ironic that England's last test series win over South Africa came in the late 1990's, at a time when England were supposed to be the worse team in world cricket. Now things are opposite, and despite being officially ranked the best team in world cricket, England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition.

[Duty281]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

It is a bit ironic that England's last test series win over South Africa came in the late 1990's, at a time when England were supposed to be the worse team in world cricket. Now things are opposite, and despite being officially ranked the best team in world cricket, England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition.

You clearly don't know anything about cricket.

[gboycottnut]

Well if these two can last tonight and for part of tomorrow one positive could be that runs will also be important. This I feel will be better for our lower order as I don't think they have the mental capacity to just bat time.

Living in Italy - assuming we get that far, I think it'll take us until around tea tomorrow to overtake South Africa's score. That's a long time to last and we'll have to keep going after that for some time to get an uncatchable lead. Very, very difficult. I fear an innings defeat being confirmed around mid afternoon.

In the very unlikely event that we pull off a draw, it might be fun to see what the regular Bopara bashers here have to say.

Btw, has anyone on this thread commented on de Villiers' keeping? Seven catches so far and hardly noticed - that says quite a lot.

Also the fact that he along with Rudolph and Duminy didn't get a chance to bat is very worrying sign for our chances for the rest of the test series of being able to bowl out this very strong South African batting lineup.

[gboycottnut]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

It is a bit ironic that England's last test series win over South Africa came in the late 1990's, at a time when England were supposed to be the worse team in world cricket. Now things are opposite, and despite being officially ranked the best team in world cricket, England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition.

You clearly don't know anything about cricket.

I know more about cricket than you do as I have followed it since the early 1980's when England at that time were better than many teams apart from the West Indies.

[Duty281]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

It is a bit ironic that England's last test series win over South Africa came in the late 1990's, at a time when England were supposed to be the worse team in world cricket. Now things are opposite, and despite being officially ranked the best team in world cricket, England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition.

You clearly don't know anything about cricket.

I know more about cricket than you do as I have followed it since the early 1980's.

Then how on earth have you come to the conclusion that: "England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition." When, since May 2009, England have done the following:

West Indies x2 (Home win)
Australia (Home and Away wins)
South Africa (Credible away draw)
Bangladesh (Home and Away wins)
Pakistan (Home win)
Sri Lanka (Home win and credible away draw)
India (Home whitewashing of the then No.1 team)

How could we have done all that if we don't know how to play proper Test Cricket? As a matter of fact, the only team missing from that list is New Zealand, who we haven't played in that period of time.

[DouglasJardinesbox]

Well if these two can last tonight and for part of tomorrow one positive could be that runs will also be important. This I feel will be better for our lower order as I don't think they have the mental capacity to just bat time.

Living in Italy - assuming we get that far, I think it'll take us until around tea tomorrow to overtake South Africa's score. That's a long time to last and we'll have to keep going after that for some time to get an uncatchable lead. Very, very difficult. I fear an innings defeat being confirmed around mid afternoon.

In the very unlikely event that we pull off a draw, it might be fun to see what the regular Bopara bashers here have to say.

Btw, has anyone on this thread commented on de Villiers' keeping? Seven catches so far and hardly noticed - that says quite a lot.

Well said re Bopara. A masterful century from Ravi, and those shouting for Finn will be crawling away from their keyboards for a while!

[LivinginItaly]

Wonder if Bresnan will show why he is preferred over Finn. Afterall the reason must have something to do with his batting ability.

[mystiroakey]

well even if we can get this draw- finn has to be in for bres- but I am also hoping that bop can cement his place with a mimum of batting out till lunch.

[gboycottnut]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

It is a bit ironic that England's last test series win over South Africa came in the late 1990's, at a time when England were supposed to be the worse team in world cricket. Now things are opposite, and despite being officially ranked the best team in world cricket, England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition.

You clearly don't know anything about cricket.

I know more about cricket than you do as I have followed it since the early 1980's.

Then how on earth have you come to the conclusion that: "England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition." When, since May 2009, England have done the following:

West Indies x2 (Home win)
Australia (Home and Away wins)
South Africa (Credible away draw)
Bangladesh (Home and Away wins)
Pakistan (Home win)
Sri Lanka (Home win and credible away draw)
India (Home whitewashing of the then No.1 team)

How could we have done all that if we don't know how to play proper Test Cricket? As a matter of fact, the only team missing from that list is New Zealand, who we haven't played in that period of time.

I mean in terms of shot selection and technique. A lot England's players have got bucketful of runs against mediocre bowling attacks, with the best example being Bopara's 3 centuries V West Indies, but come the crunch time when he had to play against high quality pace bowling, his batting technique for handling quality pace bowling was found out. And the majority of England's dismissals today and on Friday came about mainly due to bad shot selection. As for the England wins at a test level which you have listed, well any decent test team such as New Zealand could have got those wins over the West Indies, Bangladesh and a poor Pakistani 2010 team. As for the wins over Australia and India, Australia were very poor in the last Ashes test series, whilst India simply underperformed last summer when we beat them 4-0 as a result of 2 things, winning a tough World Cup campaign and their star batsman Virender Sehwag being out injured at the start of the test series and not being able to find any form when he eventually came into the last couple of test matches.

[DouglasJardinesbox]

So bad, those teams, that SA haven't beat any of them at home in 4 years....

[Biltong]

Not that I am bothered by the ranking, however in defence of SA.

Pakistan away 1-0 series win 2007
NZ at home 2-0 series win 2007
WI at home 2-1 series win 2007/08
Bangladesh away 2-0 series win 2008
India away 1-1 series draw 2008
England away series win 2-1 2008
Bangladesh at home series win 2-0 2008
Australi away 2-1 series win 2008
Australia at home 1-2 series loss 2009
England at home series draw 1-1 2009/10
India away 1-1 series draw 2010
WI away 2-0 series win 2010
Pakistan neutral 0-0 series draw 2010
India at home 1-1 series draw 2010/11
Australia at home 2011 1-1 series draw 2011
Sri lanka at home series win 2-1 2011
NZ away 1-0 series win 2012

Total 8 away series, 6 wins , 2 draws.

Total home 8 home series, 4 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss.

Total neutral territory one, drawn

Last 5 years, 17 series, 10 wins, 6 draws, 1 loss.

46 matches, 24 wins, 11 draws, 11 losses.

Win rate 2.18

Not too shabby, if I may say so myself.

[JDizzle]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

It is a bit ironic that England's last test series win over South Africa came in the late 1990's, at a time when England were supposed to be the worse team in world cricket. Now things are opposite, and despite being officially ranked the best team in world cricket, England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition.

They won in South Africa in 2004/2005.

And this knee jerking is totally ridiculous. We didn't make whole sale changes when Mitchell Johnson blew us away at Perth and we came back and battered them at Melbourne and Sydney, we didn't make wholesale changes when we got battered in the UAE and we got a credible drawn series in Sri Lanka. We are not in the 90's any more, we aren't going to re-call Graeme Hick or Mark Ramprakash, and we aren't going to form a bowling attack with Ronnie Irani and Mark Ealham. Stop it. We are the masters at digging out a drawn game, and we can do it again tomorrow. Kallis and Amla have shown if you take your time and get yourself in you can bat all day if you don't play a poor shot. We can still do this! Channel the spirit of Colly boys! Come on!

How fantastic were Amla and Kallis though? Sensational. That's how to bat in a Test match.

[gboycottnut]

jesus christ...

the way people are acting its like we gone back to the 90's...

ITS ONE GAME IN A SERIES...

It is a bit ironic that England's last test series win over South Africa came in the late 1990's, at a time when England were supposed to be the worse team in world cricket. Now things are opposite, and despite being officially ranked the best team in world cricket, England's players don't know how to play proper test cricket against top quality opposition.

They won in South Africa in 2004/2005.

And this knee jerking is totally ridiculous. We didn't make whole sale changes when Mitchell Johnson blew us away at Perth and we came back and battered them at Melbourne and Sydney, we didn't make wholesale changes when we got battered in the UAE and we got a credible drawn series in Sri Lanka. We are not in the 90's any more, we aren't going to re-call Graeme Hick or Mark Ramprakash, and we aren't going to form a bowling attack with Ronnie Irani and Mark Ealham. Stop it. We are the masters at digging out a drawn game, and we can do it again tomorrow. Kallis and Amla have shown if you take your time and get yourself in you can bat all day if you don't play a poor shot. We can still do this! Channel the spirit of Colly boys! Come on!

How fantastic were Amla and Kallis though? Sensational. That's how to bat in a Test match.

But England don't have a Amla or a Kallis left who can bat through hour after hour with a defensive batting mode/mind. The rest of England's batting including both Bell and Bopara are all shot-making/stroke-playing type of batsmen in the mode of a David Gower or a Michael Vaughan rather than a brick wall style of dullish batsman in the mode of a Chris Tavare or Geoff Boycott.

[Biltong]

I agree with gboycottnut, both Kallis and Amla showed patience, concentration and discipline until lunch and then accellerated their innings to near 5 runs per over until the declaration without really increasing the risk in their stroke play.

[mystiroakey]

we have the players to get 225 more runs minimum and by that time it will be game over- we dont need any cooks strauss or trotts(or as you say athertons or boycotts)

[JDizzle]

England do have players like that; they are called Trott and Cook. Admittedly they are out his innings, but Cook played one rash shot in his first innings and that was the end. It can be done. And Bell and Ravi don't need to dig in in the conventional sense, the pitch is good and they should just play their natural game. They've both batted for long periods of time when playing their natural games before and they can do it again. It's not likely, but I am keeping the faith.

And Amla and Big Jacques did hand out a lesson, but it is do-able for England! However well you bat, you don't make 300 on a minefield! Maybe (definitely) Bell and Bops don't have the ability to bat like Amla, but they don't need to. If one gets a 100, and the other gets a 70 then the game will nearly be saved! It's not nearly as impossible as is being made out!

[gboycottnut]

I agree with gboycottnut, both Kallis and Amla showed patience, concentration and discipline until lunch and then accellerated their innings to near 5 runs per over until the declaration without really increasing the risk in their stroke play.

And by contrast to these 2 batsmen, a lot of England's batsmen today showed none of these qualities with the chief culprit being one Kevin Pietersen who foolishly thought that he could get England out of their current hole by playing risky attacking shots from every ball faced.

[JDizzle]

Yeah, I agree about KP. There is playing your natural game, and then there is playing like a total bellhop.

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