England v South Africa, The Oval, 1st Test Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Here we go then, England v South Africa at The Oval where the battle for Number 1 will commence. A win or draw in the series for England will see them retain that coveted spot whereas South Africa need a series win to take the crown. This will be a true battle of the World's two best Test teams. Here are the lineups:

1 Andrew Strauss (capt), 2 Alastair Cook, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Kevin Pietersen, 5 Ian Bell, 6 Ravi Bopara, 7 Matt Prior (wk), 8 Tim Bresnan, 9 Graeme Swann, 10 Stuart Broad, 11 James Anderson

England bat down to 10 with the formidable Cook opening (made 294 less than 12 months ago), KP (who walks into any team at the moment) and the best WK batsmen in the game, Matt Prior (averages over 40 and he bats at 7). Add the fact that their probable No.8 bats with an average over 40! England have probably the best all-round bowling attack in the game - 2 World-class quicks, a World-'class spinner and a very good all-rounder in Tim Bresnan who averages over 40 with the bat and under 30 with the ball. One weak link though, Ravi Bopara.

1 Graeme Smith (capt), 2 Alviro Petersen, 3 Hashim Amla, 4 Jacques Kallis, 5 AB de Villiers (wk), 6 Jacques Rudolph, 7 JP Duminy, 8 Vernon Philander, 9 Dale Steyn, 10 Morne Morkel, 11 Imran Tahir

7 specalist batsmen which includes the best no.3 in the World and the best all-rounder seen in this era. There's also Graeme Smith and De Villiers who both average a shade under 50. Then the best fast bowling attack in the World, Steyn (best bowler in the World), Morkel and Philander (average of 14.15 in 7 Tests). Weak links? Petersen isn't the best opener, Boucher the usual WK is injured and Tahir is far from the best spinner in the World.

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My series prediction: 2-0 England.

Enjoy the game!

[mystiroakey]

SA.. WELL DONE- Great win and good no.1

[VTR]

Good analysis Biltong. The England analysis a bit shorter!

Batting: Started ok but gutless and spineless from day 2 onwards apart from a couple of knocks from Prior and Bell

Bowling: Powderpuff

[Duty281]

David Lloyd's getting a lot of stick on Twitter from...Indian fans. Short memories or what?

[trebellbobaggins]

Congrats , best team in the world and better by a significant margin right now.

A group of players with some old heads and tns of experience have stayed good far longer than England managed and peaked at the right time. The world is your oyster. Hope you guys stay number one longer and more convincingly than England managed.

[VTR]

What is it with India fans? Meet one in person and they are respectful and knowledgable. Put a keyboard in front of them and they turn into a bunch of myopic rabid dogs! There's hardly much glory for them in this: in fact it makes their pathetic showing last summer look even worse and it was bad enough to start with.

[brennomac]

Didn't see today's play (was keeping up with it on cricinfo) but saw a fair bit of the Saturday and Sunday play.

So, on the same pitch in the same conditions, SA scored 318 per wicket lost, Eng scored 31 per wicket lost. That can mean either of a few things - SA batted brilliantly. Yes they did but some - not a lot - of the bowling from Eng was truly dire.
SA bowled brilliantly. Yes they did and all the bowlers chipped in but some of the shots from England players getting out were criminal. It's an indication of the Eng batting that they made Tahir - until now more than workmanlike - look like a bleeding magician - while Swann, supposedly one of the best spinners in the world, went more than 50 overs without looking like getting anybody out.
England batted badly. Firtst day they didn't but to go from 267-3 to all out 385 was criminal when 500 was the least they should have been looking for
England bowled badly - well good as Amla, Smith and Kallis were no can deny that an awful lof the bowliong was truly dire.
Oh and add in that a stand-in SA wicket keeper picked up 8 catches!

Someboldy said earlier that only Trott, Prior and Bell can hold their heads up after this mauling but that's probably a bit unfair on Cook. Fact is that the bowlers were uniformly awful, most of the batting after the first dsay was poor.
Maybe too many Eng players haved been believing their own hype and believed that becoming number 1 means they're a class apart. But again, a team doesn't get to no. 1 without being good and doesn't become a bad team after one bad beating. But the severity of this thrashing does not augur well fcr the next two days - a huge amount of pyschological damage has been done top Eng, not just because they lost but how they lost.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Lets face it there was more top this than not picking Finn on a wicket that wouldnt have suited him.

SA had it dead right, this series will be decided on "crazy sessions" and England are more prone to those.
They looked to be well in control at the end of day 1, then proceeded to have 4 days of crazy sessions (OK perhaps we can discount this morning from that)


This test does highlight that theres a huge psychological element to test cricket. SA may have proven they are the better side but the margin and nature of the victory vastly exaggerates the gap in ability between the sides. Whatever it was England cracked on day 2 (overconfidence? many of the wickets went down to stupidity) and SA grew from that.

[mystiroakey]

finn or no finn i doubt they would have scored less. we just put pressure on ourselves by not scoring 500 plus first innnings on an easy pitch(by taking to many chances thinking we had allready won the game). the final innings for england was underpressure and we didnt score freely, and that negative approach knocks 7 bells out of us confidence wise..

next game will be completely different

[Guest]

total annhilation, completely embarassing..

however its only one game, and i fully expect us to bounce back!

[eirebilly]

I really was thinking that there was nothing in this track but i cant find a reason for this.
I would have said that the batting lineups were evenly matched but that England edged it with their bowling attack, completely outdone in both aspects.

There is always next test though

[Galted]

brutal from SA, only 1 team in it but 3 factors Eng would do well to remember
the SA bowlers are relentless and aren't going to give up as easily as some attacks that Eng have played in recent years when the score is starting to mount, Eng batsmen need a lot more application
the SA batsmen showed a lot of patience, didn't risk anything when the runs were slow in coming, just ground out the runs & capitalised when Eng wilted - again not something Eng may be used to over the past few seasons
SA had the best of the conditions of the 1st four days and Eng were destroyed psychologically by the start of the last session yesterday (I think SA did well not to slog & get to 637/2 rather than 670/6)
Eng more than capable of fighting back, SA have often thrown it away after big starts (remember India then Sri Lanka series in SA) - fancy SA to win series but there's a lot more fight & skill in Eng than we've seen

[eirebilly]

I am not one for kneejerk reactions but i would certainly bring Finn in for Bopara next test.

[guildfordbat]

Solid performance from England and Cook and Trott in particular. But plenty before needed before SA out of contention.

As posted last Thursday evening whilst others were starting to celebrate an England win.

Look no further than the Surrey threads for cricket wisdom (and the odd typo).

[msp83]

Hope England would bounce back. More importantly, hope there would be more life in the pitch.

[ShankyCricket]

I think you have to go back to the 2008/09 series in Oz for the last time the Saffers won 2 tests in a row in a series. And the UAE apart, we have always come back strong after huge defeats. So I have faith that we can beat South Africa in the next test. No need for knee jerking reactions.
Unless Onions for Bresnan qualifies as knee jerk.

[ShankyCricket]

And before all the Bresnan fans come out and say "oh he hasnt done anything wrong to be dropped" he is averaging 40.46 in 5 tests in 2012. Now we cant pick him based on what he did against India 12 months ago, can we?

[Shelsey93]

Where do we go for the next Test?

Well, I think that we need to bring a fresh bowler in, who hasn't already been tonked around. If fit Headingley conditions could dictate that that's Onions, though Finn continues to knock on the door. Sadly Bresnan would have to miss out on this occasion if all are fit. Hopefully Broad will be back up to speed - he's got enough credit in the bank to come back from what was a really poor performance.

The five bowler question also begins to raise its head again. However, I think that this afternoon showed what having an extra batsman can do - we would have had no chance whatsoever without playing seven batsmen. England have been scarred by Headingley '09 when Broad batted batted seven and we got thrashed by an innings, so I can't see them doing that again here.

[gboycottnut]

Where do we go for the next Test?

Well, I think that we need to bring a fresh bowler in, who hasn't already been tonked around. If fit Headingley conditions could dictate that that's Onions, though Finn continues to knock on the door. Sadly Bresnan would have to miss out on this occasion if all are fit. Hopefully Broad will be back up to speed - he's got enough credit in the bank to come back from what was a really poor performance.

The five bowler question also begins to raise its head again. However, I think that this afternoon showed what having an extra batsman can do - we would have had no chance whatsoever without playing seven batsmen. England have been scarred by Headingley '09 when Broad batted batted seven and we got thrashed by an innings, so I can't see them doing that again here.

I do have to question whether Stuart Broad is worth his place in the test side based on his test performances so far this summer. He has made scores of 25, 10, 16, and 0 from 2 tests V West Indies and 1 test V South Africa. In terms of bowling, apart from getting 11 wickets in the first test V West Indies, he hasn't done much with the ball since then. He got 3 wickets in the second test V West Indies and crucially not only did he not get any wickets V South Africa but his pace was well down what it was say last summer V India.

[Shelsey93]

Where do we go for the next Test?

Well, I think that we need to bring a fresh bowler in, who hasn't already been tonked around. If fit Headingley conditions could dictate that that's Onions, though Finn continues to knock on the door. Sadly Bresnan would have to miss out on this occasion if all are fit. Hopefully Broad will be back up to speed - he's got enough credit in the bank to come back from what was a really poor performance.

The five bowler question also begins to raise its head again. However, I think that this afternoon showed what having an extra batsman can do - we would have had no chance whatsoever without playing seven batsmen. England have been scarred by Headingley '09 when Broad batted batted seven and we got thrashed by an innings, so I can't see them doing that again here.

I do have to question whether Stuart Broad is worth his place in the test side based on his test performances so far this summer. He has made scores of 25, 10, 16, and 0 from 2 tests V West Indies and 1 test V South Africa. In terms of bowling, apart from getting 11 wickets in the first test V West Indies, he hasn't done much with the ball since then. He got 3 wickets in the second test V West Indies and crucially not only did he not get any wickets V South Africa but his pace was well down what it was say last summer V India.

Certainly still more than worth a place - dropping your best players after a couple of bad games was what we did in the '80s and '90s. But he looked poor this week. Hopefully he makes the most of the unusually long gap between Tests to be back on song for Headingley.

[liverbnz]

It wouldn't surprise me if there were no changes for Headingly to be honest. Strauss has already come out in defence of his bowlers and 1 Test doesn't really change the class of this England attack. Although perhaps a little 'rotation' wouldn't do any harm.

However, England's top 6 have a lot to answer for. Another realitive failure against top class bowling attack and if they continue to do so in this series they could rightfully considered flat-track bullies. Yet strangely, if England do lose this Test series I expect the top 6 will remain the same, except possibly Bopara.

Anyway, too early to be writting them off yet. Time for assessment will be in 4 weeks.

[eirebilly]

As i said, i am not one for kneejerk reactions but Bopara has never looked like a test player to me (much the sam as i said of Morgan) so i think that his is the only position that will come under threat.

England need to look at either a proper batsman to fill that role or and extra bowler (Finn/Onions) for the next test in my opinion.

[Fists of Fury]

Broad's lack of pace is baffling. All of our bowlers look slightly down, but Broad's has been the most worrying decline. That full, zipping length that has brought him great success is rendered ineffective by that 7-8mph pace deficit.

[DouglasJardinesbox]

Finn & Onions in for Bopara and Bresnan. We need 20 wickets, and have to rely on the top 6 batters getting it right.

[gboycottnut]

Finn & Onions in for Bopara and Bresnan. We need 20 wickets, and have to rely on the top 6 batters getting it right.

With Broad underperforming badly with both the bat and the ball in this first test, I would have Finn in for Broad, Onions in for Bresnan. As England still need 6 specialist batsmen, I would leave Bopara in the team, but perhaps move him down to 7 with Prior moving up 1 place to bat at 6. A bowling unit of Anderson, Finn, Onions and Swann is I believe a better unit than that of Anderson, Broad, Bresnan and Swann.

[mystiroakey]

i like the sound of bringing finn and onions in- just to let broad and bres know they are not invincible. We should utilse our squad abit and rotate them abit

[Fists of Fury]

I like the sound of that, Gboycott, given how down on pace and threat Broad and Bresnan have been, but there is no way in hell that they'll make two changes to the bowling unit. It'd be seen as far too knee jerk, and they're bound to back them to bounce back (rightly or wrongly...probably wrongly).

[gboycottnut]

I like the sound of that, Gboycott, given how down on pace and threat Broad and Bresnan have been, but there is no way in hell that they'll make two changes to the bowling unit. It'd be seen as far too knee jerk, and they're bound to back them to bounce back (rightly or wrongly...probably wrongly).

What I find annoying is that the selectors seem to have no backbone and are afraid to make such changes to the team because it would be seen as a knee jerk reaction etc and a sign that they made the wrong decisions for the team selected for the first test.

[mystiroakey]

id drop strauss , get cook is as captain and push bell up to open- also get taylor in now to blood him in against the new no.1 test team

[liverbnz]

The selectors have no backbone? The very same selectors that dropped Steven Finn after he took 5 wickets in an innings at Brisbane?

The selectors did not get things wrong. The team was right, it just under-performed. For the bowlers, it was a first time in a long, long time.

Furthermore, the English selectors will not base their selections based on media and forum (over)reaction.

[eirebilly]

I am not sure about dropping Broad, he just had a bad game along with pretty much all of the bowlers.

I still think that Bopara is a weak link but who to replace him with?

[guildfordbat]

The cricket so so serine today. Almost as if both teams were going through the motions. It did seem abit to easy in fairness. no disrespect to SA, but i honestly believe this england team is leagues above any other(in these conditions) and they almost only have to turn up in any format

No need for any changes then.

[mystiroakey]

The cricket so so serine today. Almost as if both teams were going through the motions. It did seem abit to easy in fairness. no disrespect to SA, but i honestly believe this england team is leagues above any other(in these conditions) and they almost only have to turn up in any format

No need for any changes then.

oi what ya doing, naughtyI have fixed it for you

[Duty281]

David Lloyd's getting a lot of stick on Twitter from...Indian fans. Short memories or what?

I will imagine those Indians will now lay off, they've been bowled out by Sri Lanka for 138!

[gboycottnut]

I am not sure about dropping Broad, he just had a bad game along with pretty much all of the bowlers.

I still think that Bopara is a weak link but who to replace him with?

But not only did Broad have a bad game, but he had an absolute STINKER, particularly with his bowling. Also he hasn't performed with the bat at all this summer with his highest score being 22. As for his bowling, apart from getting 11 wickets in the first test V West Indies at the start of this summer, he hasn't done much in the 2 subsequent test matches he has played for England since then.

[gboycottnut]

David Lloyd's getting a lot of stick on Twitter from...Indian fans. Short memories or what?

I will imagine those Indians will now lay off, they've been bowled out by Sri Lanka for 138!

They are probably still winding up David Lloyd about the huge bruise he got when he got whacked in the private parts by a Jeff Thomson thunderbolt during an ashes test match in 1974.

[Pal Joey]

msp83 is a good lad though...

[eirebilly]

But not only did Broad have a bad game, but he had an absolute STINKER, particularly with his bowling. Also he hasn't performed with the bat at all this summer with his highest score being 22. As for his bowling, apart from getting 11 wickets in the first test V West Indies at the start of this summer, he hasn't done much in the 2 subsequent test matches he has played for England since then.

Pretty much all of the bowlers had stinkers to be fair. Broad is still very much a match winner. He has done it in the past on many occasions and will do it again. He may not be having the best time with the bat but is he not considered a bowler who can sometimes bat these days? I think that you are being a bit harsh on him for highlighting his failures with the bat to be honest.

[wadey101]

Do you still honestly believe that this England side is leagues above any other (in these conditions) and they almost only have to turn up in any format then mysti?

[mystiroakey]

no

do you?

[gboycottnut]

Do you still honestly believe that this England side is leagues above any other (in these conditions) and they almost only have to turn up in any format then mysti?

Only when those other sides don't have all their best 11 players available to them, eg. Sehwag missed a couple of tests at the start of last summer's 4 match test series between England and India, many of the West Indies best players weren't available to them during the recent WI V England test series.

[Fists of Fury]

Sehwag missing Tests doesn't mean a thing. He can't play in England. Also, when he did play, he got a king pair!!

[Shelsey93]

We are very good at pressing home an advantage when we hold one. Going back to 2010 we have generally got ahead early in series and pulverised the opposition, never looking back from that point onwards. That didn't happen in the winter or this week, and its a worry that when we're not flying we don't have a middle gear to compete on level terms with an opposition that's going well.

Its a similar story in one-day cricket - get the momentum behind us and we're great; lose a couple and the wheels can quickly come off.

I don't know why this is, but its a habit we need to get out of. Its almost like they're so used to just winning that the batsmen's brains become scrambled when they need to work hard - i.e. against the Pakistan spinners and against this SA attack. There is isn't really a recent precedent for the bowling unit collectively being so ineffective. But Broad aside they rarely bowled real dross and you've got to back them to turn things around.

We always talk about our bowling depth and in the past turning to reserves that are up and raring to go has been to our advantage. To do so after one Test wouldn't have been Plan A, but I think we do need to give SA something else to think about, whether that be Onions's tight line or Finn's extra pace. These things often sort themselves out with injuries/ stunning form dictating what should happen, but if all the seamers are fit I reckon on this occasion a 'horses for courses' type decision might be the way to go - Finn on a quick pitch, stick with Bresnan if we think its going to reverse, Onions otherwise.

[wadey101]

No I don't and have nver thought that.

[mystiroakey]

england at home are a very tough proposition- and were best in the world- if you didnt realise this then you havent been watching us recently- we have beaten all comers over the last few years

[mystiroakey]

and my sentiment was our problem- we underestimated them after day 1 as i have said- it was a good position and we thought it was game over.. we shouldnt have thrown our wickets away on a relatively easy pitch! we did that because we knew/thought we were the best- the confidnece in the england set up at home was something else- clearly the team and myself have been rocked off that feeling!

[Biltong]

To be honest mystir I have a bit of an issue with a mindset of "we are the best"

It can be a very dangerous mentality to have. I agree with you England under estimated us after day one. I made mention of it earlier, when you think you are the best the mentality could not allow for consideration of who you are playing.

I like that SA isn't the best, it means we know we have to prove ourselves everytime we go out there and it has proven to give us a consistency that few teams have emulated over the past 18 years.

We joke about being number 2, but it is because we seldom hit awe inspiring hights, but also seldom hit very low lows.

[mystiroakey]

your not no.2 any more pal.

[FerN]

your not no.2 any more pal.

Yes, we are number 3 now accourding to the ICC website

[Biltong]

2, 3 what's the difference

[mystiroakey]

Thought you would be no.1

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