Is Gatland the right man for the Lions?

Since the summer series I'm having serious doubts about whether the Lions can win the series with Gatland at coach.

To be blunt I don't think Gatland has the nouse to put a team together to beat Australia.

He's turned Wales into the best, most powerful, organised, disciplined and structured team in the NH but that has been shown on 5 occaisions now not to be enough to beat Australia and even more times not enough to beat the SH teams..who wales play more than any other NH side at Gatlands behest.

This is not a criticism of Wales who have fantastic players, and I have huge respect for, but the way that Gatland has built the side and approaches the game.

As with Wasps, Wales are a team built on aggressive blitz defence, counterrattacking and physical superiority and when this is matched there is no plan B.

In the past 12 months the other NH teams haven't been able to match Wales physical intensity over 80 min, skill and offloading ability but the SH teams have shown they can, hence I can see Australia winning the series 2-1 with Gatland at the helm.

I'm not sure if there are alternatives though, with question marks over all the home nations international coaches right now.

Thoughts?

You will get a lot of angry Welshmen after you for this. I would probably agree with you though, we should get someone to do a rain dance before every test, that way Andy Robinson can take charge!



Doesn't Deccie have an alright record against SH teams......

Can Gatland be blamed for the 3-0 whitewash if Howley was in charge? I'm sure he had input but to me it's not the same as actually being there.

Like you say, what other viable alternatives are there? Jake White would no doubt like to have a crack but I don't think anyone in the UK or Ireland are putting up their hand. Geechs is as old as Nessy!

SCW?

Only if Alistair Campbell can go. That pre-match speech of his was up there with Henry V before the Battle of Agincourt.

Jake White's a good shout. Graham Henry would probably like another crack at it as well. Wouldn't mind seeing Wayne Smith either.

Thomond wrote:You will get a lot of angry Welshmen after you for this.

Beats having an angry Irish mob after me for a change sure....

Sure we're all friends in here Thom ... .....

Yerra, we're not usually angry at you. You're an Ulsterman, apparently we can't be seen to agree with you.....

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Gatland picks the best players from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the Lions will win this test series.

However if he tries to be too faithful to some of his Welsh favourites it will turn into a similar debacle as the SCW tour in 2005. Wales were beaten by the Australians in the summer series, although the games were close it was a whitewash.

Wales showed they struggled up front at the breakdown and their Scrum was under a wee bit pressure too. Wales are the best team in the NH at the moment, the Grand Slam in the 6N is testament to that, but something just didn't work in Australia and Gatland will have a year figure out what went wrong and come up with a solution.

He has the players at his disposal to win this series with class, talent, experience, youth and depth across all the positions. It has the potential to be the strongest Lions touring squad of this generation..... please Gatland don't make a mess of it!

I posted this on another thread but I'll lump it in here too.

Is Gatland the right man for the Lions?
No.

But, this has nothing to do with his success with Wales. For me, its simply I believe the Lions should be coached by folks from the Home Nations. If the Lions are the B&I Lions, then players and coaches should be B&I.

Yes, I'm sure his ancestry is B&I, probably from 100 or 200 years ago (maybe more). But this is the same as establishing Eng/Ire/Wal/Scot residency based upon a great-great-great grandfather. Good, bad, or indifferent, I believe we should have home grown coaches leading the team.

doctor_grey wrote:Is Gatland the right man for the Lions?
No.

But, this has nothing to do with his success with Wales. For me, its simply I believe the Lions should be coached by folks from the Home Nations. If the Lions are the B&I Lions, then players and coaches should be B&I.

Yes, I'm sure his ancestry is B&I, probably from 100 or 200 years ago (maybe more). But this is the same as establishing Eng/Ire/Wal/Scot residency based upon a great-great-great grandfather. Good, bad, or indifferent, I believe we should have home grown coaches leading the team.

Something he'll have in common with the Lions' opponents

personally I think Joe Schmidt and Conor O'Shea are the outstanding coaches in the NH right now but neither have coached at International level.

I'm just concerned with Gatland because he has had numerous chances to build Wales into a side which can beat the SH teams, and in my opinion the players to do it and time and time again he's come up short.

Fair enough Kia about Gatland not being on tour this summer but the tactics, selection and pattern that Howley implemented were influenced by Gatland.

Seriously though, it's become such a (supposed) certainty that Gatts is getting the job that I keep assuming he already has.

That what spending too much time on a forum does for you.

I can see where your coming from but 1. there's doesn't seem to be many other candidates and 2. I feel you're being a tad harsh on both Gats and Wales who for all the failings of both have come very close to beating both Oz and SA, coming from a time when we'd get pasted by both to regularly getting within a score and matching them in most/all facets of the game (still a loss which is terrible, but a definate improvement). Gats also wasn't in charge for the summer tour, so I won't mention them, but not sure why your opinion of him would change between the 6Ns and the post-summer tours.

Gats has many faults, and I was one of the people seriously considering whether he should be the Wales boss in 2009/10, but he has improved Wales and started hammering in that we can match the very best in the world and shouldn't be in awe of them. Unfortunately I still think the players still haven't got that last bit of belief which will get them over the finish line.

However some of the English and Irish players may have this...

Well if you break it down into 2 seperate sterile enviroments.

Pick a Lions coach after the 6N = Gatland
Pick a Lions coach after the summer = Robinson

I certainly don't want Robinson leading the Lions when I think he was a very lucky boy to keep his job after the 6N debacle.

Is the likes of Lancaster in contention? Kidney? Kidney I suspect falls into the Robinson catergory for Irish fans so I would say no to him too.

Lievermont?

And Scottish Smirnoff!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Lievermont?

Now, that would be interesting. Can you imagine the selection discussions on here with him in charge...

I can see the headlines now :

"Lievermont selects 90 strong touring party for the Lions tour to Australia."

The mid-week side would have a great chance of making the first squad under Lievremont's rotation policy.

It'd be interesting to see if he tries to grow that molestache again.

I added English coz they are used to beating SH sides/Oz teams, and Irish because they have players used to winning with Leinster/Munster (and Ulster...) and have had recent success of beating Oz/SA

I suppose the Scots have beaten Oz and SA recently but didn't feel their players had the winning mentality of the other's having not won a 6Ns or qualified from their WC group recently

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I can see where your coming from but 1. there's doesn't seem to be many other candidates and 2. I feel you're being a tad harsh on both Gats and Wales who for all the failings of both have come very close to beating both Oz and SA, coming from a time when we'd get pasted by both to regularly getting within a score and matching them in most/all facets of the game (still a loss which is terrible, but a definate improvement). Gats also wasn't in charge for the summer tour, so I won't mention them, but not sure why your opinion of him would change between the 6Ns and the post-summer tours.

No I accept that Wales have come very close and have been doing for a while. Lets be clear I firmly believe that Wales have good enough players to be beating the SH teams.

My opinion on Gatts has changed because he hasn't really evolved Wales from the RWC and since the two defeats by Australia in 2011. I thought that they would kick on from then and win the series down under but instead they were whitewashed.

I honestly think Wales were complacent and expected to overpower Australia in the 3/4s and pack and when this didn't happen they showed a lack of adaptability between the tests. This is in part down to the players but also down to the way Gatland has coached and moulded the side.

The 2 pass from the ruck, direct powerrunning game just seems to be too predictable and limited against the SH teams and I'm not sure that Gatland can coach a side to play any other way.

The way to beat a team coached by Gatland:

Kick to the corners when in your own half or at least kick the ball over the blitz defense
When attacking from within thier half, move ball along the line with a dummy runner moving into the blitz, and a player cutting the angle on the ball.

When defending against the Gatland, two passes then hit attack, have two men taking the 2nd reciever who will be taking the hit, slow ball down at the ruck, aim for a turnover.

But you do need to hand it to Gats. His simple, simple brand of rugby is effective. Just shows that if you do the basics right...............

Gatland, Kidney, Robinson, Lancaster... It's a no-brainer tbh.

I think the Lions will lose anyway, I can't see Aus losing this series under Deans.

Gatland's only tactic is kick/chase/defend, regardless of who the opposition are or what they are doing at any given time during a game.

However, with some powerhouse English and Irish forwards, in combination with juggernaut Welsh backs, these are probably the best tactics to beat Australia.

The Lions aren't going to outplay or outrun them.

Morgannwg wrote:Gatland, Kidney, Robinson, Lancaster... It's a no-brainer tbh.

I think the Lions will lose anyway, I can't see Aus losing this series under Deans.

Really?

I'll be slightly disappointed if the Lions don't win 3-0,unless there is some sort of injury crisis at TH or the 2 halfback spots I don't see the Lions losing the series.

I agree Gats is not the right man for the job but not for the reason of the summer tour

That was Howley's problem

He shoudln't be picked because of the effect on Wales and i think Lewis and the WRU will be asking the question what will happen pre RWC if he is off for a year?

in my view he is the best of a bad bunch though in terms of the Lions. I think it is touch and go whether he will get picked but he represents the best chance of a series win.

You going to give it to kidney/Robinson or Lancaster? No way

Jonners perhaps, we all know how good he is with a touring side?

Gatland needs to learn from Martin Johnson and realise that to beat the SH teams you need to realistically aim at putting 30+ points on them.

Maybe Jonno could come along as a specialist adviser?

Is Gatland the right man for the Lions?

I guess no one can realy answer that to be honest.

The 2 questions i would like to ask is why is Gatland being given the Lions job in the first place.

Is it 1) since being in charge of Wales in has taken them to is it ( 3 Grsnd Slams?)

Or is it 2) out of all the NH coaches, he is the most experienced Internetional coach?

If he has been given/offered the Lions job. Will he pick the Best players from all NH teams, or will he Pick mainly Wales players and only the odd 1/2 from other NH teams?

But if Gatland does not get the Lions job. Then who will be the coach?

Who out ot the rest of the NH would be a better coach (International coach) than Gatland?

Would the Likes of Andy Robinson be a better Lions coach than Gatland? He may not have won many Grand Slams while he has been in charge of Scotland. But he did get a win againts Australia in the summer tours.

Stewart Lancaster. He has only just started coaching at this level (International)level that is. And so far as done a bad job. But would he be better than Gatland? Dont know is the Answer to that. But then agains he did get a Draw in SA this summer. A draw is not a win. but then it is not a loss either.

When does it get anounced Who is going to be getting the Lions coach job?

I believe that none of the current international head coaches should coach the lions. All the successful lions teams have been coached by men who were the not current head international coaches of any of the 4 nations..
Personally I would appoint Conor O'Shea who would create a more unified lions team. Back him up with a forwards coach Graham Rowntree and Rob Howley for the backs.

Casartelli wrote:Gatland's only tactic is kick/chase/defend, regardless of who the opposition are or what they are doing at any given time during a game.

However, with some powerhouse English and Irish forwards, in combination with juggernaut Welsh backs, these are probably the best tactics to beat Australia.

The Lions aren't going to outplay or outrun them.

Totally agree, Gatland's tactics have not changed, everybody knows what Wales are going to do hence Wales don't hammer anybody, with the players they have they should be winning games by bigger margins. As some comment on here, Wales are so predictable and slow getting the ball out with Phillips they should be doing better. I prefer Lancaster or Mike Ruddock as the coach, at least they don't coach one dimensional rugby.

Haven't really had time to respond to the comments but I'm glad people have taken the OP in the spirit intended, not a WUM or criticism of Wales or Gatland but a genuine question .

Agree there are not many obvious alternative candidates. Interesting to see Johno's name mentioned.

I think it will be Gatland and deservedly so, I just think there are big question marks as to whether he can come up with a strategy to win the series.

Strange, but this is one time I actually feel it is not the huge uphill battle to have a shot at winning. There is real talent across the nations. The hardest part is picking from some very good players and ensuring they can all play in the system the coach wants, or the system is tailored to the specific skill sets of the selected players.

For instance, look at the back row. There must be around a dozen players who could play and represent us well. With guys who are strong, tough, quick, good foragers, and so on.

Choices everywhere. Only positions I am not completely comfortable with are at 10, 12, and 13. To be fair, there are some fairly good centre options, but at out half????????

doctor_grey wrote:Strange, but this is one time I actually feel it is not the huge uphill battle to have a shot at winning. There is real talent across the nations.

One word..... 2001 (not really a word but hey ho).

The Lions were huge favourites then, especially after spanking the Ozzies in the 1st test. We had Jonno, Wilko, Dayglo, Woodie, Billy Whizz, BOD, Howley, Back, Hill ...some of the best players we've ever produced in the home nations.

We lost 2-1. Never underestimate the Australians, especially at home .

rodders wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Strange, but this is one time I actually feel it is not the huge uphill battle to have a shot at winning. There is real talent across the nations.

One word..... 2001 (not really a word but hey ho).

The Lions were huge favourites then, especially after spanking the Ozzies in the 1st test. We had Jonno, Wilko, Dayglo, Woodie, Billy Whizz, BOD, Howley, Back, Hill ...some of the best players we've ever produced in the home nations.

We lost 2-1. Never underestimate the Australians, especially at home .

You are right the Lions in 2001 had their best lions team in the last 30 years.. Losing was down to the coach Henry..

Jeez who'd be a coach. Henry admitted that he got things wrong in 2001 and that learning experience made him a better coach. He didn't go for the authoritarian headmaster role and became more approachable and his relationship with the players changed for the better. But I never agree with putting a loss down to the coach exclusively. The players are also responsible. Austin Healy made some comments about the powder puff Aussie forwards and they put in their best performance. The Lions had a huge pack but they were outplayed in that final test. That's not down to the coach.

That said, I think these kinds of discussions about the Lions shows that the fans are really up for this series and think they have a great chance if the right team is selected. Which is great really and it's fantastic to see this amount of enthusiasm and passion for a concept that seemed to be at an all time low in 2005. The SA series did a lot to restore pride and now there seems to be a hunger to show that the Lions can win a series, despite being a huge task.

Kia I'm way too young to remember the great Lions teams of the 70's ( ) , but the 1997 Lions tour was one of the real hilights of my time as a rugby fan. It was really awesome and a real watershed moment for NH rugby in the pro era.

Johno came of age as a captain, the RL guys returned and showed the SH teams could be matched physically and Geech had the lions playing a style of rugby that it seemed only the SH could play. Legends were born and the nucleus of Englands WC winning side was formed on that tour. The team spirit was fantastic.

From then on we haven't come close to that, well until 2009 and its understandable that anyone who's only followed the Lions since 2001 would think its a pile of overhyped rubbish. I have a replica 2005 jersey and haven't put it on since the 1st test.

I think Gatland is without a doubt the right man for the job.

- He has worked in Ireland, England and Wales
- He has won the 6 Nations twice
- He has won the Heineken Cup
- He has won the Amlin Cup
- He has won the Premiership three times
- He has won the NPC Championship
- He has won the Anglo Welsh Cup
- He has been assistant coach on a Lions tour already
- He has been coaching in Britain and Ireland since 1994

I think having taken this summer off and given the reins to Rob Howley will have done him some good and given him a chance to step back from the team a bit.

The lasting memory for me about the Lions series in 1997 was scoring 3 tries to nil and losing the match. It was probably the most frustrated I have been until last year October.

rodders wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Strange, but this is one time I actually feel it is not the huge uphill battle to have a shot at winning. There is real talent across the nations.

One word..... 2001 (not really a word but hey ho).

The Lions were huge favourites then, especially after spanking the Ozzies in the 1st test. We had Jonno, Wilko, Dayglo, Woodie, Billy Whizz, BOD, Howley, Back, Hill ...some of the best players we've ever produced in the home nations.

We lost 2-1. Never underestimate the Australians, especially at home .

Agreed. Don't forgot it's likely the Aussies are going to be a LOT stronger than they were against Wales where, with the exception of Genia, they didn't play great and had quite a few injuries to key players.

I don't think we should make any assumptions that we're going to be able to power through the Aussies with our forwards either. Sides have made that mistake before and come unstuck.

rodders wrote:Kia I'm way too young to remember the great Lions teams of the 70's ( ) , but the 1997 Lions tour was one of the real hilights of my time as a rugby fan. It was really awesome and a real watershed moment for NH rugby in the pro era.

Johno came of age as a captain, the RL guys returned and showed the SH teams could be matched physically and Geech had the lions playing a style of rugby that it seemed only the SH could play. Legends were born and the nucleus of Englands WC winning side was formed on that tour. The team spirit was fantastic.

From then on we haven't come close to that, well until 2009 and its understandable that anyone who's only followed the Lions since 2001 would think its a pile of overhyped rubbish. I have a replica 2005 jersey and haven't put it on since the 1st test.

You cheeky sod. I'm 36! It'd be fantastic for the Lions to get a series win. Hell, it's in Australia. I don't mind. Just lull you into a false sense of security for the next one in NZ!

I agree though, if you've come late to this Lions concept, there's not a lot to cheer about. That's why a victory would mean so much and why so much interest has been shown in this thread. There is hunger for success because though the Lions have their detractors, there are many genuine Lions and neutral fans who love that something traditional like the 3 match series still has a place in the modern professional game and that some things should not be eliminated in the name of progress and that some traditions are worth maintaining. We've already lost the Barbarians to indifference and apathy. I'd hate to see the Lions go a similar route.

biltongbek wrote:The lasting memory for me about the Lions series in 1997 was scoring 3 tries to nil and losing the match. It was probably the most frustrated I have been until last year October.

Really Bilts?? I thought it might be whenever half the Boks team fell for that ridiculous dummy from Matt Dawson.... ....

I think the Lions desperately need a series win to keep the concept alive. 2009 through it a lifeline but a series win is needed.

If this tour goes badly I think there will be big pressure to change the Lions format, so there is a lot riding on this tour.

Kia ... chin up sure thats why there's vets categories ...

rodders wrote:

biltongbek wrote:The lasting memory for me about the Lions series in 1997 was scoring 3 tries to nil and losing the match. It was probably the most frustrated I have been until last year October.

Really Bilts?? I thought it might be whenever half the Boks team fell for that ridiculous dummy from Matt Dawson.... ....

you want me to have a talk with Ruan Pienaar? huh, huh?

It's always difficult picking a Lions coach and I don't think we will know until afterwards whether or not he was the right choice. Ultimately coaching the Lions is different because it's not about building up a squad over time and developing players in the way that a normal coach is. It's about very quickly bringing together a group of players from different backgrounds, who in some cases will get on well but in others not so much and getting them to the stage where they will be commited to each other and play to a coherent game plan. The most similar job is possibly coaching the Barbarians, so I'd maybe consider someone like Mallett who managed to coach them to a win over New Zealand a few years back. Added bonus for those that are keen on this sort of thing is that although he was brought up in Africa he was born in the UK.

If I was a Welsh fan I'd also be less than happy at the idea of Gatland disappearing for a season to coach the Lions. It's a side issue but is relevant to an extent.

Biltong - really? Have the Straueli days been erased from your memory or does frustration not cover it!

Big, Straueli was just embarressing.

In fact for the pperiod after Nick Mallet in 2000 until the appointment of Jake White, I have wiped my memory clean.

I simply recognise that as losing time.

biltongbek wrote:

rodders wrote:

biltongbek wrote:The lasting memory for me about the Lions series in 1997 was scoring 3 tries to nil and losing the match. It was probably the most frustrated I have been until last year October.

Really Bilts?? I thought it might be whenever half the Boks team fell for that ridiculous dummy from Matt Dawson.... ....

you want me to have a talk with Ruan Pienaar? huh, huh?

Gatland head coach, Robinson forwards coach, Nigel Davies backs coach. Win.

rodders wrote:I honestly think Wales were complacent and expected to overpower Australia in the 3/4s and pack and when this didn't happen they showed a lack of adaptability between the tests. This is in part down to the players but also down to the way Gatland has coached and moulded the side.

The 2 pass from the ruck, direct powerrunning game just seems to be too predictable and limited against the SH teams and I'm not sure that Gatland can coach a side to play any other way.

I've been saying this for a while: if the opposition know what's coming, they're better placed to defend against it. There's a frustrating predictability to the way Wales play; when it produces victories it's easier to ignore, but when it leads to defeats it frustrates all the more. All sides need a gameplan but they need more than one, and the players have to be given license to play outside the gameplan as the match unfolds in front of them. Since the World Cup (which was ultimately a failure) Wales have become more and more conservative. It would be such a wasted opportunity if the current crop of fantastic British and Irish players were prevented by the coach's tactics from being the best Lions they can be.

Jonno would be an absolutely inspired choice. Won't happen this time though.

Won't really matter who's in charge. I can see no way at all that the Lions won't win this series. I'd be bewildered and bemused if it isn't a 3-0 whitewash.

I've said from the start I'd like to see Joe Schmidt lead the tour to Aus.

Gatland has done a great job with Wales but what Joe has done with Leinster has been remarkable.