Ireland: What the provinces should be doing to improve.

So there has been quite a bit of discussion about the NIQ signings for the provinces, about how much of an impact they have had on the success of the provinces, and how they are potentially blocking young IQ players who need immediate game time. I think of course it is a concern, because there are certain key positions that the provinces just cover up with NIQs. However, the most irritating thing of all is that the provinces do have the opportunity to help each other, help strengthen our options for the national team, and help develop our young and talented players who need the game time.

For example, Ulster are weak (in terms of depth at least) in the back row, mainly due to the unpredictability of Ferris' injuries. He can't really be relied on. We need to strengthen our options, and so we have looked elsewhere in SA, Australia and NZ for options. At 9/10 we are pretty bare, although I am happy that we are sticking to our guns and giving Jackson the opportunity to start. I am also pleased that we signed the Ulsterman Niall O'Connor back from Connacht, to boost our options rather than buying more NIQ players.

As for Munster, the weakness is primarily at 12 and in the front row. For Leinster, the weakness is in the second row.

Is there a solution to their weaknesses? Well yes, one is to just cash in for the NIQ players, which is what we have been doing so far. The other, and much more beneficial option, is to look at the bigger picture and realise where one province is weak, another is strong. At Ulster we have our captain Muller starting in the second row, alongside Tuohy for the most part. Backing them up is Stevenson, who has had a tremendous season. A great young talent in Henderson is also waiting in the wings. So we have 4 very strong options, 3 of which could help Ireland's cause, and need the game time. Leinster need more depth at second row.. hmm, what could possibly happen here to solve all of these problems?

This is one example, there are a few other positions where the provinces and indeed Ireland could do with more options. Therefore they need to be IQ, and they need significant game time.

For Leinster, the signings of Stevenson or Henderson would be hugely beneficial, and both would at least get bench time for their respective teams. For Ulster, the signing of Auva'a would have given us an IQ ball carrying option, which has been filled by Nick Williams. We did sign back O'Connor as a backup to Jackson, without signing an NIQ, which is great. For Munster, signing Fitzpatrick, Macklin or Furlong would solve their problems at 3. Signing Spence or O'Malley would have removed the need for signing Laulala. Signing Dominic Ryan would have removed the need to sign Stander. Many other fringe players could boost the Connacht team, who will continue to grow.

I do think some big name players have been (and will still be) a huge boost to the teams. Pienaar, Muller, Afoa, Nacewa, Mafi, Botha. These guys have been great. However, it is a good thing we are reducing how many we are allowed, and that we are also trying to allow one NIQ per position spread out among the provinces (which I am hoping comes into play for Afoa/Botha).

The IRFU need to nail these rules down, and try to encourage the provinces to help one another out first before looking elsewhere. I hope that this will come into play, and I think we would see dramatic results in both the provincial teams, and in the national team. The options are there, and the best thing is, they are actually IQ.

I agree - not much more to say really, we need to start getting an awful lot more clever with how we use our resources, players in this case.

The IRFU and the provinces need to wrok together, if they want a better Ireland. Wil it harm HC chances probably at the beginning at least but I think it could be beneficial long term. The German FA did something similar with their Bundesliga teams and they are now a very, very good football side

I'm not sure it would even reduce the quality of the provinces. Like I said I think it would strengthen the provinces. I have seen many teams recently bring through young options, give them more game time, and watched them thrive as they step up to the next level. They were just as promising as the Hanrahans, the Hendersons and the Macklins here. There are about 20 IQ players who could do with more game time, and they are being denied that opportunity.

Good idea in theory and would be great for Ireland however in practice this would be impossible for a couple of reasons.

Firstly the provinces would never agree. They are in direct competition with each other in the Rabo and HEC. Why would they agree to let their resources go to their rivals at the behest of the IRFU? What coach would agree to work in that enviroment? The fans would go bananas too if the IRFU were trying to persuade their young players to go to rival provinces.

Secondly the players can't be forced to go somewhere they don't want to go and thats even ignoring the fact that Ulster are a registered company in another country and tax jurisdiction and the complications surrounding that. They have contracts and legal rights, the power is in the players hands not the IRFUs.

Sorry but I don't believe this could happen.

The thing is rodders, some of these players I am talking about aren't even getting regular game time. They are basically extra to what their team needs, they themselves would want regular game time, and they would want the best opportunity to represent Ireland.

The likes of Ruddock, Macklin, Bracken, and a few of the U20s guys could really do with moving elsewhere. For their own careers even.

I'm not disputing that Rory but those guys, certainly Ruddock has had opportunities to move and have chosen to stay and Leinster. Thats all there is to it really, it comes down to the players.

Well he isn't being too smart about his decisions, and they should make sure he knows that. He is falling further and further behind other options at Leinster each year, yet he has a chance to possibly start in HEC games for another province. That opportunity will be gone for him soon though if he isn't careful, because he really is fading.

Yeah I hear that and I agree in theory that it might be good for him to go elsewhere and be a key player, I'd have loved him at Ulster, but its the players descision not the IRFUs.

The IRFU couldn't and shouldn't push the provinces to let players they want to keep, go. That would be a step too far and would essentially mean the provinces are no longer autonomous. Plus the IRFU can't be seen to favour one province over another.

A lot of Ulster players have come through the Academy, failed to get their contract renewed and left.

Guys like Conor Gaston and James Sandford at London Irish, David McIlwaine is doing really well at Doncaster, Tommy Seymour at Glasgow, Ian Whitten at Exeter now. A lot of pretty good players have left Ulster and left Ireland because we've no room for them all in our squad.

One thing the IRFU could look at is trying to identify whether they could be enticed to go to one of the other provinces if they want to get more gametime. I firmly believe Whitten is a better player than the massively overrated James Downey for instance, and younger too. The IRFU and Munster should have made a serious play for him.

Whitten to Munster would have been great for all concerned but maybe Whitten just wanted to move to England?

But yes in the instance of players wanting to leave, or their province not offering them a new contract, maybe the other provinces should be given 1st option? That could possibly work but maybe that happens anyway?

Yeah, maybe. For Ulster its good because he has a two year contract. He'll get exposed to a different environment and a different challenge and then he'll hopefully resign to compete with Luke Marshall for the 12 shirt once Paddy Wallace retires

I think the IRFU do try and encourage these cross-provincial transfers. But you can't force a player to move to a team against his will. Donncha Ryan didn't want to move to Leinster. He wanted to fight for his Munster jersey and eventually got it. Ruddock just didn't want to play for Ulster. Simple as that.

Offering them more money is the only thing that could entice them.

The idea that players are just pawns of the IRFU to be moved around between the provinces willy nilly is a bit much.

These are people, with families, friends, social lives, studies, etc etc.

As Feckless says the IRFU do ENCOURAGE players to move. If they don't want to go then........

Ruddock btw. Turned down Munster and Ulster to stay at Leinster. And why wouldn't he. He played 21 games last season for a total of 1200 minutes. Compared to 17 the previous season and 3 the one before. Would he do any better than that in Munster or Ulster?

That's 6 less than Isa Nacewa.

Not bad for a guy who is getting no gametime.

Obviously I am not suggesting they are moved against their will. Obviously the NIQ players also have families, friends, social lives etc, but for the sake of their careers, they move abroad to a different country. A good few IQ players would do well playing at another province, rather than getting a lack of game time where they are, or less game time than they might have. Whitten was a very good example, he would have benefitted playing for Munster, and Munster would have benefitted from having him to replace Mafi.

I didn't realise Ruddock had played that much, however had Ryan been fit I doubt Ruddock would have got anywhere near that amount of game time. The following players would be ahead of him (or at least should be since they are all better players):

Heaslip
O'Brien
McLaughlin
Jennings
Auva'a
Ryan

Ruddock would fall behind these guys I would say. Then you have the fantastic U20s back row, all Leinster players, who shall be stepping up at some point. Plus the likes of Jordi Murphy who was in the U20s last season.

It is obvious some of these players would be better suited elsewhere, especially in positions where the depth is so strong, but not as strong for other provinces who could do with more talented IQ players.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:The idea that players are just pawns of the IRFU to be moved around between the provinces willy nilly is a bit much.

These are people, with families, friends, social lives, studies, etc etc.

As Feckless says the IRFU do ENCOURAGE players to move. If they don't want to go then........

Blah blah blah, enough of the sob stories mcladyboy, stop hogging all the players and just give us Madigan and K2 you greedy bollix....

...nah I concur Jen.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Obviously I am not suggesting they are moved against their will. Obviously the NIQ players also have families, friends, social lives etc, but for the sake of their careers, they move abroad to a different country. A good few IQ players would do well playing at another province, rather than getting a lack of game time where they are, or less game time than they might have. Whitten was a very good example, he would have benefitted playing for Munster, and Munster would have benefitted from having him to replace Mafi.

I didn't realise Ruddock had played that much, however had Ryan been fit I doubt Ruddock would have got anywhere near that amount of game time. The following players would be ahead of him (or at least should be since they are all better players):

Heaslip
O'Brien
McLaughlin
Jennings
Auva'a
Ryan

Ruddock would fall behind these guys I would say. Then you have the fantastic U20s back row, all Leinster players, who shall be stepping up at some point. Plus the likes of Jordi Murphy who was in the U20s last season.

It is obvious some of these players would be better suited elsewhere, especially in positions where the depth is so strong, but not as strong for other provinces who could do with more talented IQ players.

Ferris
O'Brien
Heaslip

Best back rowers in Ireland by a distance. Big gap back to the rest.

Jennings is a better 7 than Ruddock. Auva'a possibly a better 8. Kev probably a better 6 for now.

Ruddock can play the other 2 positions better than them though. i.e better 6 and 8 than Jennings etc. (actually Kev is a better 8 in fairness)

Ruddock did not look so good this season. But he will probably make up for it next season. He has the talent.

Jordi Murphy that you mentioned is only 5 months younger than him, and waaay behind him in development. Ryan is actually 8 months older and on the same level, in my mind anyway.

The other lads will come through in good time, and there will not be room for them all. Jennings is the only one who is remotely old.

Something has to give. We shall see. At the moment, they all want to play for Leinster, the province of their birth (inc Ruddock) and who can blame them

If the irish provences really want to improve, then they have to have the courage to break free from insular thinking that dogs the Irish national team.

So long as Ireland choose to ignore the benefits and importance of sevens in the development of vital attack back play and positions, then sadly Irish rugby will never be consistently competitive with teams of similar ranking.

I dont write this to be hurtful (and I apologise if some interpret this post as hurtful) all I'm attempting to achieve is to state something that is patently obvious.

Sevens is not the be all and end all of improving Irish rugby, but it would be probably the easiest,cheapest, improvement remedy to adopt, Is there a chance that the Provinces could actually take the initiative and give the boys at the top some direction?

Don't disagree with that Laurie. It's a mindset thing. Kiwis have a very different national character. Frontier types who can fix things and have a can do attitude. Not just in Rugby.

They also have a more open attitude in sharing knowledge between their S15 franchises than we do between our Provinces.

We are more hidebound having a longer history etc. I have stuff in my fridge that is older than your country.

Actually we probably share less knowlege between Provinces, compared to the rest of the world, Where ever you go in the World you will find New Zealanders coaching rugby.

Whats actually crazy, is the reason why we do it, we go and try fix everybody elses rugby problems in every far flung corner, then go running back home proclaiming how rugbywise/clever/skiful we are ,quickly followed by "Now please give me a coaching appointment".

I think the example you give when it comes to the lock situation at Ulster probably isn't the best one. For a long season in an attritional sport like rugby, you need at least 5 locks and if Ulster were to let one of those go, they would only have 4. Henderson will be heading into his first season of professional senior rugby and will need to be managed carefully through that process. If Stevenson were to move, he'd just be taking the same role as a back up there as well and I'm guessing he'd like to keep that role in his home province.

If we're talking about locks, it is players like Dave Foley or Ian Nagle that should be "encouraged" to join Leinster because Munster have serious strength in that area in the senior squad and still another 2 in the academy who could do a job if needs be.

After saying that though, I get your point, but there does need to be real strength in that position at that province before we do that I feel. As you state, the backrow situation at Leinster is a prime example.

The other situation where I think it should happen is if a province would seem to have two elite players in one position one should be encouraged to move on. This could happen soon in the case of Spence and Cave.

But, we can't force players to move on.

Fair point MBTGOG - If Ulster still had Baker playing though, then it would have been a good idea for one of those guys to move abroad. I think Stevenson may have started had he played for Leinster, I think he is a fantastic player and he could be the replacement for Cullen.

I have a number of issues with this idea,

Say in the Example, its decided Spence needs more gametime, moves to Munster and becomes a crowd favourite and a star after a few years, playing better than Cave,

would he return to Ulster if he's now settled in Munster, would David Humph be happy, now say Cave gets injuried and forced to retire, and we get a Young Munster center that needs gametime as Spence is keeping him out of the team, Ulster get a young Munster center who turns out to be not that good.

Would Ulster fans be happy to be watching an average munsterman playing while an Ulster man is lighting up Thomond park? would David humph be happy with that?

To be honest while what you are saying would benifit Ireland it wouldn't the Provinces.

The only way that it would work out is by having a central acamady that all the young players come through and are then selected by the Provinces each year by draft, (they will pick the players for the areas they need). But then you could end up with a Munster team with more Ulster players than Munster players in it, and I feel what fans like about the Provinces most is that they are mostly local players playing for them.

Well for a start Ulster have multiple options at 13. Cave, Spence, Payne, Trimble and now Bowe. Farrell and Allen too. So if Cave did receive an injury and Spence left we would still have a ton of options. That is the whole point though, it would only be in positions where the province is strong. If we only had Cave and Spence then it wouldn't work of course.

That argument about Spence playing well for Munster is like saying Leinster fans would be annoyed if the likes of Carr or Cronin played well. Or if Keatley played well for Munster. I am sure they would be happier that they did end up lighting the place up, as of course it benefits the whole team. And in your example of Spence lighting up Thomond Park, how would that not help Munster if that were the case? Or if we had signed a Leinster back row who did the same etc.

The reason it would help the provinces is because certain positions for the provinces are weak, while in other provinces the positions are strong and have a ton of depth. With certain players not getting game time. The thing is, the provinces would rather look abroad than realise there are some good IQ players here that could do with the game time, and they have about 4 options ahead of them.

Madigan is the player I am most worried about. He's 23/24 and has very little prospect of playing 10 regularly in the HEC for the forseeable future if Sexton is fit.

Leinster won't want to loose him, and he won't want to leave but from an Ireland perspective its not great that the second best, and potentially the best, fly-half in the country is playing an impact role at his province when he should be coming into his prime.

By contrast Ulster are in a position where they have a much more inexperienced and younger player thrust into the starting line up. In an ideal world Madigan(or even Keatleys) and Jacksons positions would be reversed but unfortunately thats just not how it works.

I have noticed that in the S15 this happens though with their players. There are some players who remain loyal no matter what (Smith, McCaw) however these guys are nailed on starters and captains, so that is understandable. There are other players though who have moved around, and ended up starting for another team where they otherwise may not have had that chance. Players like Nasi Manu and Colin Slade who played for the Crusaders.

Again these guys have social lives/family etc.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well for a start Ulster have multiple options at 13. Cave, Spence, Payne, Trimble and now Bowe. Farrell and Allen too. So if Cave did receive an injury and Spence left we would still have a ton of options. That is the whole point though, it would only be in positions where the province is strong. If we only had Cave and Spence then it wouldn't work of course.

That argument about Spence playing well for Munster is like saying Leinster fans would be annoyed if the likes of Carr or Cronin played well. Or if Keatley played well for Munster. I am sure they would be happier that they did end up lighting the place up, as of course it benefits the whole team. And in your example of Spence lighting up Thomond Park, how would that not help Munster if that were the case? Or if we had signed a Leinster back row who did the same etc.

The reason it would help the provinces is because certain positions for the provinces are weak, while in other provinces the positions are strong and have a ton of depth. With certain players not getting game time. The thing is, the provinces would rather look abroad than realise there are some good IQ players here that could do with the game time, and they have about 4 options ahead of them.

Thats not what i'm saying, your twisting, I said how would they feel if they did better than the player retained by the province. Would Leinster fans have been happy if Keatley had turned out to be the Irish internation 10 and Sexton had turned out crap? watching him each week play for Munster because they weren't allowed to keep him?
Its ok when you have the better player in the position but if you are forced to move a younger player that turns out better, you can be annoyed. Think about Bowe at Ospreys, everyone wanted him back, now imagineon his return the IRFU would only offer a central contract if he played for Munster because they had more need, We wouldn't have been happy.

They do need to Help each other more I agree, but not big changes, things like when Whitten said he wanted to get gametime, contacting the other Provinces first and giving them first refusal on him or arranging a 1/2 year loan, if none are intrested then let him seak a new club.

Arrange 1/2 year loan deals for younger players, to other provinces. Not the we'll try and get them back in a few years when their contact expires that exists with Connacht at the minute. means Connacht and the rest can Plan better for the future.

I don't really understand your examples though. If we have good depth at 13, and Spence did head to Munster and play well, why would we complain? We have an abundance of options there, and Cave is starting over Spence right now anyway. If Sexton played crap and Keatley played well, Leinster still have Madigan. They have two extremely talented 10s, they have never needed Keatley, so if he played well fair enough, they still have two fantastic 10s.

Also, this isn't anything to do with not being allowed to play, or giving central contracts only if they join this province or that. This is for players like Whitten, who would do better at another province. It would help him as a player, the province he joins, and ultimately it would help Ireland.

He isn't the only player who would do well playing for another province, and being encouraged to do so.

say Spence went to Munster and became the Irish 13 ahead of Cave and a better player, would Ulster fans not be annoyed we counld have kept him?

I don't see why they would. I would be annoyed that Ulster missed out and played Cave ahead of him when he was still at Ulster, but clearly right now Ulster believe Cave is the better player. Spence is a fantastic player and if he is getting consistent game time somewhere else, then that is a good thing.

If he became the irish 13 I would be delighted, why wouldn't people be happy with that? More depth at 13 for Ireland, two great centres in Cave and Spence starting for the provinces. It is a win-win in my opinion.

Kingshu,

Muster sent Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin over to Leinster. They would not be the players they are now had they remained.

red_stag wrote:Kingshu,

Muster sent Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin over to Leinster. They would not be the players they are now had they remained.

Thats a bit of a distortion! All of them went from Munster to another club where they really developed as players before Leinster got interested enough in them. It's not a case of Leinster developing Irish players who had limited opportunities at Munster. It's about guys development stagnating at Munster, them moving to pastures new (two to England) and them being developed by those teams only to be plucked off the scrapheap by Leinster once they proved themselves as top players.

thats why I'd push loan moves to other provinces rather than just moves to England/another province with an eye to bring them back if they prove themselves. If Spence did become the Irish 13 ahead of Cave at the end of the loan he would be back with Ulster.

My main point is that any of these moves should be loans, when the loan period is over then go back to there orginal province, if they are not required still, they th eProvince he was loaned to get first refusal to offer him a contract, if they don't the other provinces get second refusal, and they hes open to the market.

Of course a player has a say in every step of this.

His point still remains true though, they would not be the players they are now had they stayed at Munster. 2 of them did move abroad first, but using the modern example of Whitten, it would have been so much better had he moved to Munster instead of Downey, and instead of heading abroad.

Is the system really as broken as we think though?

Can't help but feel there's a lot of knee jerk reactions to how the provinces operate. Things can always be improved but I think there's a lot more problems with how the national side is run than anything else.

It will be good to see if Faloon can spark some life back into his career with Connacht, as he will most likely be starting.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:His point still remains true though, they would not be the players they are now had they stayed at Munster. 2 of them did move abroad first, but using the modern example of Whitten, it would have been so much better had he moved to Munster instead of Downey, and instead of heading abroad.

Would it have been that much better if he joined Munster? In what sense?

If anything about the provinces is broken and needs fixing it's Connacht.

We need to use Connacht as a development province. Have certain key positions like tighthead, second row, outhalf, inside centre etc. reserved for Irish players. Whatever position the national team is struggling with at the time.

If we have a promising player who isn't getting gametime, offer him a good deal at Connacht but more than anything suggest if he impresses it's the fast track to national team selection. Involve him in national squads. Thats the incentive needed to entice players west. Instead, going to Connacht is a death sentence for international selection. Its that myopia which is killing us,

Some of the national problems lie with the provinces IMO Notch.

We've missed a golden opportunity with Connacht these past two years, with them being in the Heineken Cup and not having any good players to compete in it with.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Some of the national problems lie with the provinces IMO Notch.

It's a minority. I think the role of foreign players is a particularly overstated scapegoat. Yes it not ideal but the benefits to Irish Rugby have far outweighed the negatives.

MBTGOG wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:His point still remains true though, they would not be the players they are now had they stayed at Munster. 2 of them did move abroad first, but using the modern example of Whitten, it would have been so much better had he moved to Munster instead of Downey, and instead of heading abroad.

Would it have been that much better if he joined Munster? In what sense?

Munster needed a replacement for Mafi. Whitten is younger than Downey, a better player than Downey, and Ireland are also having trouble at 12. He is behind Wallace at Ulster, but at Munster he would have been given the chance to start since Mafi was leaving. Which means more options for Ireland. The fact he is abroad means he will get less recognition.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Some of the national problems lie with the provinces IMO Notch.

It's a minority. I think the role of foreign players is a particularly overstated scapegoat. Yes it not ideal but the benefits to Irish Rugby have far outweighed the negatives.

I do agree with that in a way, because I think people are trying to put all of the success of the provinces down to individual foreign signings, and some fans in particular seem very bitter about the likes of Leinster doing so well. However, there have been a ton of signings for next season which just aren't that necessary IMO. It was highlighted in another thread.

Well first of all, I'd disagree he is better than Downey. Secondly, Downey is good because he provides a solid option for the next 2 years while Hanrahan develops. Lastly, Whitten's best performances last season I saw were from the wing and it might just be that playing in England is exactly what he needs now.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Some of the national problems lie with the provinces IMO Notch.

It's a minority. I think the role of foreign players is a particularly overstated scapegoat. Yes it not ideal but the benefits to Irish Rugby have far outweighed the negatives.

I do agree with that in a way, because I think people are trying to put all of the success of the provinces down to individual foreign signings, and some fans in particular seem very bitter about the likes of Leinster doing so well. However, there have been a ton of signings for next season which just aren't that necessary IMO. It was highlighted in another thread.

I think they are pretty necessary- guys like Andrew Goodman and Nick Williams will be needed for next season during international windows. They won't be taking up first team places.

I think Whitten is better than Downey by a long shot. He not only offers a carrying option at 12, but he actually has good awareness and footballing skills. Downey is a one dimensional, poor man's Roberts in my opinion.

However you did bring up a flaw in my argument. If Whitten signed for Munster, that could potentially stall the development of Hanrahan. However, even there I think Hanrahan is going to be seen as the replacement to ROG rather than play at 12.

They are Notch, but like I said could we not have had IQ players fill those roles instead? I used the example of signing Leo Auva'a (who is actually a very good player) to play the same role essentially that Williams would be playing for Ulster.

Does he want to leave Dublin though? Do Ulster want him? And do Leinster want to lose him? Answer to all three is probably not

A lot of this is a) talking as if players are pawns who'll move wherever the IRFU want them and b) taking control of signings away from the provinces.

They've already put in a lot of restrictions. Filling those journeyman spots with Irish qualified players won't have any impact on our national side whatsoever. Surely the fact that Leinster have needed to sign a player to cover for time Madigan will be involved with Ireland is proof the system is actually working? Ditto Ulster and Ferris/Henry.

I know for a fact if Ulster could have signed an Irish player to fill the role of Williams they would have. We've signed Roger Wilson, we've tried to sign the likes of McLaughlin, Ruddock and Muldoon before and been turned down. If we can't get an Irishman to do the job, ruling out an NIQ is just going to make it harder to maintain a consistently high standard across an overcrowded system.

I would have preferred to have signed Downey a year or two ago as I don't think he is as good but he offers what we need now and I think Laulala will feed off well from his type of game.

I think you're overrating Whitten. If he was as good as you say, Ulster would not have let him go. Whitten is a good direct runner and I think that works better coming in off the wing.