Ireland: What the provinces should be doing to improve.

First topic message reminder :

So there has been quite a bit of discussion about the NIQ signings for the provinces, about how much of an impact they have had on the success of the provinces, and how they are potentially blocking young IQ players who need immediate game time. I think of course it is a concern, because there are certain key positions that the provinces just cover up with NIQs. However, the most irritating thing of all is that the provinces do have the opportunity to help each other, help strengthen our options for the national team, and help develop our young and talented players who need the game time.

For example, Ulster are weak (in terms of depth at least) in the back row, mainly due to the unpredictability of Ferris' injuries. He can't really be relied on. We need to strengthen our options, and so we have looked elsewhere in SA, Australia and NZ for options. At 9/10 we are pretty bare, although I am happy that we are sticking to our guns and giving Jackson the opportunity to start. I am also pleased that we signed the Ulsterman Niall O'Connor back from Connacht, to boost our options rather than buying more NIQ players.

As for Munster, the weakness is primarily at 12 and in the front row. For Leinster, the weakness is in the second row.

Is there a solution to their weaknesses? Well yes, one is to just cash in for the NIQ players, which is what we have been doing so far. The other, and much more beneficial option, is to look at the bigger picture and realise where one province is weak, another is strong. At Ulster we have our captain Muller starting in the second row, alongside Tuohy for the most part. Backing them up is Stevenson, who has had a tremendous season. A great young talent in Henderson is also waiting in the wings. So we have 4 very strong options, 3 of which could help Ireland's cause, and need the game time. Leinster need more depth at second row.. hmm, what could possibly happen here to solve all of these problems?

This is one example, there are a few other positions where the provinces and indeed Ireland could do with more options. Therefore they need to be IQ, and they need significant game time.

For Leinster, the signings of Stevenson or Henderson would be hugely beneficial, and both would at least get bench time for their respective teams. For Ulster, the signing of Auva'a would have given us an IQ ball carrying option, which has been filled by Nick Williams. We did sign back O'Connor as a backup to Jackson, without signing an NIQ, which is great. For Munster, signing Fitzpatrick, Macklin or Furlong would solve their problems at 3. Signing Spence or O'Malley would have removed the need for signing Laulala. Signing Dominic Ryan would have removed the need to sign Stander. Many other fringe players could boost the Connacht team, who will continue to grow.

I do think some big name players have been (and will still be) a huge boost to the teams. Pienaar, Muller, Afoa, Nacewa, Mafi, Botha. These guys have been great. However, it is a good thing we are reducing how many we are allowed, and that we are also trying to allow one NIQ per position spread out among the provinces (which I am hoping comes into play for Afoa/Botha).

The IRFU need to nail these rules down, and try to encourage the provinces to help one another out first before looking elsewhere. I hope that this will come into play, and I think we would see dramatic results in both the provincial teams, and in the national team. The options are there, and the best thing is, they are actually IQ.

LordDowais does have a point but I feel that Wales were forced to fast track those players, we'll never know if tehy would have been better fast tracked or not, but I'd say if the regions had more funding they still would have pushed them through as their talent stands out, but some of them I bet they would have preferred to take their time over.

Ulster had to rebuild a few times over the last 6/7 years, Leinster acamady is really churing out talent, Munster have had a successfull team but now its a rebiulding stage. Leinster will prob have a rebuilding season in a few years.

It was just that in Wales all 4 regions were in the rebuilding stage at the same time (more or less), Dragons like Connacht are in a constant rebulding phase,
Scarlets were the first to go through it and are now emerging for it, Ospreys entered it next and as such are their resources, it was pretty seamless, Cardiff Blues have entered it now, and it looks it may take them a year or so like Scarlets to emerge.

Every team goes through cycles, A core of players break into the team, develop, win things, then decline and a rebuilding phase starts again. If Ulster Munster and Leinster were all in the rebuilding phase (at the same time) like the regions are/were we'd see a lot more players pushed forward, the truth is Munster are rebuilding, Ulster developing and Leinster are peaked/peaking.

in a year maybe two we will see Leinster rebuilding, Munster developing and Ulster Peaked
then Ulster rebuilding, Leinster developing Munster peaked, etc etc

Thomond wrote:Dowlais has a point until the last 2 years or so the provinces didn't really pick young players Munster in particular, Our emphasis is changing now and there are young guys getting more and more game time. Ulster and Leinster leading the charge. I think you are very harsh on Dowlais there is some merit to what he is saying.

What I hear him saying is that Wales were forced to push young talent through due to a lack of funds in the regions.

The knock on effect is that they are getting some excelent young players through to the national team.

Agree with that. I don't agree with the "therefore Ireland should do the same" aspect though.
Or that the reason that we don't is because we are unwilling to sacrifice the performance of the provinces in the HC.

Munster are a bit of a special case in fairness. They had a great team that grew old together and they did not react fast enough to replace them.
Personally I think there was a fair bit of denial there. After Croker 09 Many Munster people thought it was a blip and that normal service would be restored soon after.

There was a 2 year lag in reaction time in Munster. Doesn't make them crap or stupid. It happens, and I'm sure they will learn from it.

On the Young player v old player thing. There are swings and roundabouts and it should be a balance.
Unless you are the All Blacks there will not be a steady stream of top quality internationals coming through at all times.
Sometimes it makes sense to hang on to a Brian O'Driscoll or a Paul O'Connell a bit longer than they would.
Also, if you get players playing at international level too young they just finish younger and there is no advantage. Wear and tear etc. There are reasons that few players get 100 international caps.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There is a little bit of merit to what he is saying but he says that we never play our young players and as a leinster fan i cannot accept that.

red_stag wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There is a little bit of merit to what he is saying but he says that we never play our young players and as a leinster fan i cannot accept that.

I cant speak for other provinces because i didnt watch much of the other provinces in the rabo last season.

Thomond, Munster did probably try to hold a great, but ageing team together for a bit to long. But with such an all-conquering side, it's easy to see how tempting it was for the coach to squeeze every last bit out of them. They kept that side together and resisted transition for a bit to long. But they wouldn't have been the first champion team to fall into that trap. Now they're very far into a transitional phase and still doing ok. HC quarter final (topped group by a massive 10 points) and a PRO12. semi. Not bad for a team in transition.

Ireland should also be in a transitional phase. But it's a transition that Kidney seems hell bent on ignoring. Understandable in the build up to the RWC I guess. But what was the deal with the last 6 Nations? He played the same 15 in every match except when injury forced his hand. He played the ageing DOC over Ryan, despite the fact that Ryan had taken his place at Munster and was playing much better. Crazy decision. He still won't let go of ROG, still brings him on in every game. For what? Madigan is playing better, let alone Sexton.

Ireland have enough quality players throughout the team to be doing better than they are. Like every team outside New Zealand/South Africa, we have some problem positions where we're lacking in the same quality. But we have Healy, Best, POC, Ryan, Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien, Sexton, Bowe, Earls, Kearney plus younger players outside the team that are thriving in the PRO12 and getting plenty of HC games.

Everyone will agree that that's a vastly superior quality to what we had in the dark days of the 90's. But unfortunately our results are getting closer to the 90's than to the 00's. A change is desperately needed in the management of the test side.

red_stag wrote:I agree I think Dowlais gets a bit rap and unfairly gets dismissed as a wum by many.

There is a lot of truth to what he says.

We have seen lots of teams just sign foreigner after foreigner so as to stay winning.

Examples:

In the centre since 2006: Munster have Trevor Halstead, Lifeimi Mafi, Rua Tipoki, Will Chambers, Save Tokula, Jean de Villiers, Casey Laulala - completely unacceptable.

In a similar way Leinster had Will Green, Ollie le Roux, Heinke van der Merwe, Stan Wright and Nathan White.

Rather than the experienced foreigner helping the Irish guys to develop for a long time this was not really the case.

That's true. And that's where Dowlias really has a point. But with those examples, how many Irish players would have become international class if only they got the chance and weren't behind those foreigners? What centres did Munster produce that were talented enough for international rugby but were blocked? Was the lack of Irish centres at Munster a symptom of foreigners? Or was constant foreign signings a symptom of a lack of good Irish centres in Munster?

Look guys, you have got me all wrong on here, I am far from a wum, o.k I like a bit of tongue in cheek nonsense but I do not come on here just to troll and for you to think that is unfair. All I do on here is type what I see and think, I do not expect any of you to agree with me, but "SOME" of you on here are so blinkered at times you cannot see the wood for the trees. For me the Irish provinces have never been in transition, they have always been good, with the exception of Ulster before they signed some quality South Africans. But, I do watch a hell of a lot of rugby and I know what goes on in front of my eyes, and for the most you can name the Leinster and Munster sides for who they will put out in the HC and the Rabo, and like it or not I always seem to see the same players playing at least for the last two or three seasons unless there is a world cup then half the time I have not got a clue who the Irish regions are putting out for the most of it. Yes I acknowledge that the provinces bring in youth but they do not do it often, I always like the look of Rhys Ruddock when he plays, but what other youngsters do you play often, you lot know better than me, so perhaps you can tell me, but I bet you my mortgage that come HC time or international those youngsters will not get a chance, why ? Because the provinces will not risk it. I know finances have pushed us this way in Wales but that is a situation that is out of the fans hands and it is the situation we find ourselves in so you cannot criticise us for that. So to end please do not call me a wum or a troll as it is deeply offending I have been on here since this site was formed and although I read more on here than I contribute I still have over 1000 posts on this forum and this is the first I have heard myself being referred to as a wum, just because you do not agree with me does it does not make either of us right, after all we are all on here giving our respected views that is what makes the debates any good.

LordDowlais wrote:Look guys, you have got me all wrong on here, I am far from a wum, o.k I like a bit of tongue in cheek nonsense but I do not come on here just to troll and for you to think that is unfair. All I do on here is type what I see and think, I do not expect any of you to agree with me, but "SOME" of you on here are so blinkered at times you cannot see the wood for the trees. For me the Irish provinces have never been in transition, they have always been good, with the exception of Ulster before they signed some quality South Africans. But, I do watch a hell of a lot of rugby and I know what goes on in front of my eyes, and for the most you can name the Leinster and Munster sides for who they will put out in the HC and the Rabo, and like it or not I always seem to see the same players playing at least for the last two or three seasons unless there is a world cup then half the time I have not got a clue who the Irish regions are putting out for the most of it. Yes I acknowledge that the provinces bring in youth but they do not do it often, I always like the look of Rhys Ruddock when he plays, but what other youngsters do you play often, you lot know better than me, so perhaps you can tell me, but I bet you my mortgage that come HC time or international those youngsters will not get a chance, why ? Because the provinces will not risk it. I know finances have pushed us this way in Wales but that is a situation that is out of the fans hands and it is the situation we find ourselves in so you cannot criticise us for that. So to end please do not call me a wum or a troll as it is deeply offending I have been on here since this site was formed and although I read more on here than I contribute I still have over 1000 posts on this forum and this is the first I have heard myself being referred to as a wum, just because you do not agree with me does it does not make either of us right, after all we are all on here giving our respected views that is what makes the debates any good.

Dunno who called you a Wum. All I saw was someone saying you were NOT a Wum.

I certainly never said or implied it.

I have no issues with your posts on this or any other thread. The fact that I don't agree with ALL that you say is part of a forum. There would be no fun if we all agreed.

LordDowlais I never thought you were a WUM,

I think that at the minute Munster don't really know who there H-cup or rabo team is at present, ie which one does Zebo go into?
Ulster similar in some places Gilroy has to displace Trimble or Bowe to geet into the H-cup team, no easy ask - he shouldn't be put in it unless he deserves it. Maligan will play plenty of Pro 12 games, but should he be in the H-cup team ahead of Sexton, he hasn't earned it.

The think with the Welsh transaction to youth, was there wasn't anyone already holding the Shirt for them to get these games, the Provinces are more competative and if you want to be in the H-cup team you have to earn the shirt first, to do that you have to prove yourself in the BandI cup and Pro 12,

The best team should start in the H-cup, the players that have earned it, the rest will have to work harder. The Pro 12 is where you will see these players, and if they do well they will play in the H-cup, take Zebo and Gilroy for instance (2 good young wingers) Gilroy haas to prove to be better than Trimble or Bowe 2 Irish internationals with plenty of experience, and many expect this is th eyear he will. Zebo has to push past either Howlett or Earls and two top class (one former) internationals, and many expect this is the year he will as Dougie is faded out of the Munster limelight.

on another thread is has young Irish player to watch this season, but if you think of the strenght of the Provinces, both first XV and squad you will see that only the very best will make it, we can afford to be picky (expect in some position that we are weak ie tighthead, but these are being addressed) being touted as a big year for Marshall as well, there are many more and each Province has about 4/5 young players to look out for this year, sure thats not as many as the regions, but we don't need to blood as many, its about quality not quanity at the provinces.

Here is a list of current senior squad under 25 y/o players with time in the Rabo (OK. Healy and Fitz are internationals )

Conway
Cooney
Fitzgerald
Flanagan
Healy
D Kearney
Macken
Madigan
J McGrath
O'Malley
Ruddock
Ryan
T Sexton

Here are current academy players with Rabo caps

Furlong
Gilsenan
Hudson
Marshall
L McGrath
Moore
Murphy
O'Connell
O'Shea
Reid
Tracy

LordDowlias, you must have missed this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylg9PK4W0Bs

Thats Craig Gilroy. He played in the 2011 Junior World Cup for Ireland U20s. Thats him scoring the decisive try in the Heineken Cup quarter-final aged 20.

Ulster started Paddy Jackson in the Heineken Cup semi-final and final! He captained Ireland U20s in the 2012 Six Nations. Last year you had Nevin Spence starting the quarter-final aged 20.

I'm only speaking as an Ulster fan here, but we have blooded our fair share of young guys on the big stage. The ones who are ready have been put in there.

We've signed foreign players with lots of experience yes, but right alongside that are a lot of guys from our Academy. The halfback partnership of Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Jackson sums it up. Getting the best to mentor the younger guys.

LordDowlias I like that you bought this up for debate, some have turned it into a personal argument, but I love disussing the Welsh regions and what I think they should do to bring in bigger crowds, appeal to more people etc etc, I do it so much I think some people think i'm welsh.

So fairs fair to offer a different view on things

I'm interested to see what Rob Penney does in Munster. He has a lot of experience of bringing through young players so lets see what he'll do in the big HEC games. Irish rugby selections are usually very, very conservative.

Kingshu wrote:LordDowlias I like that you bought this up for debate, some have turned it into a personal argument, but I love disussing the Welsh regions and what I think they should do to bring in bigger crowds, appeal to more people etc etc, I do it so much I think some people think i'm welsh.

So fairs fair to offer a different view on things

+1

Outside perspectives are always welcome.

Just checked the updated squads here and a few players have really bulked up it seems!

Peter O'Mahony is apparently 108kg now.

Makes me think he is really going to focus on 6 or 8, where that sort of bulk is pretty necessary. He has looked a wee bit outmatched physically at times, so maybe the added bulk will help him.

profitius wrote:I'm interested to see what Rob Penney does in Munster. He has a lot of experience of bringing through young players so lets see what he'll do in the big HEC games. Irish rugby selections are usually very, very conservative.

Kingshu wrote:LordDowlias I like that you bought this up for debate, some have turned it into a personal argument, but I love disussing the Welsh regions and what I think they should do to bring in bigger crowds, appeal to more people etc etc, I do it so much I think some people think i'm welsh.

So fairs fair to offer a different view on things

+1

Outside perspectives are always welcome.

+ 2 Sometimes Outside perspectives can be a fresh eye on things. You can be too close to your own situation to see what is happening