Ireland: What the provinces should be doing to improve.

First topic message reminder :

So there has been quite a bit of discussion about the NIQ signings for the provinces, about how much of an impact they have had on the success of the provinces, and how they are potentially blocking young IQ players who need immediate game time. I think of course it is a concern, because there are certain key positions that the provinces just cover up with NIQs. However, the most irritating thing of all is that the provinces do have the opportunity to help each other, help strengthen our options for the national team, and help develop our young and talented players who need the game time.

For example, Ulster are weak (in terms of depth at least) in the back row, mainly due to the unpredictability of Ferris' injuries. He can't really be relied on. We need to strengthen our options, and so we have looked elsewhere in SA, Australia and NZ for options. At 9/10 we are pretty bare, although I am happy that we are sticking to our guns and giving Jackson the opportunity to start. I am also pleased that we signed the Ulsterman Niall O'Connor back from Connacht, to boost our options rather than buying more NIQ players.

As for Munster, the weakness is primarily at 12 and in the front row. For Leinster, the weakness is in the second row.

Is there a solution to their weaknesses? Well yes, one is to just cash in for the NIQ players, which is what we have been doing so far. The other, and much more beneficial option, is to look at the bigger picture and realise where one province is weak, another is strong. At Ulster we have our captain Muller starting in the second row, alongside Tuohy for the most part. Backing them up is Stevenson, who has had a tremendous season. A great young talent in Henderson is also waiting in the wings. So we have 4 very strong options, 3 of which could help Ireland's cause, and need the game time. Leinster need more depth at second row.. hmm, what could possibly happen here to solve all of these problems?

This is one example, there are a few other positions where the provinces and indeed Ireland could do with more options. Therefore they need to be IQ, and they need significant game time.

For Leinster, the signings of Stevenson or Henderson would be hugely beneficial, and both would at least get bench time for their respective teams. For Ulster, the signing of Auva'a would have given us an IQ ball carrying option, which has been filled by Nick Williams. We did sign back O'Connor as a backup to Jackson, without signing an NIQ, which is great. For Munster, signing Fitzpatrick, Macklin or Furlong would solve their problems at 3. Signing Spence or O'Malley would have removed the need for signing Laulala. Signing Dominic Ryan would have removed the need to sign Stander. Many other fringe players could boost the Connacht team, who will continue to grow.

I do think some big name players have been (and will still be) a huge boost to the teams. Pienaar, Muller, Afoa, Nacewa, Mafi, Botha. These guys have been great. However, it is a good thing we are reducing how many we are allowed, and that we are also trying to allow one NIQ per position spread out among the provinces (which I am hoping comes into play for Afoa/Botha).

The IRFU need to nail these rules down, and try to encourage the provinces to help one another out first before looking elsewhere. I hope that this will come into play, and I think we would see dramatic results in both the provincial teams, and in the national team. The options are there, and the best thing is, they are actually IQ.

red_stag wrote:Kingshu,

Muster sent Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin over to Leinster. They would not be the players they are now had they remained.

I'd say you had your tongue fairly bet into yer cheek when you wrote that.

Keatley, Ronan and Jones being "sent" the other way. I remember Cheika being livid after Jones signed for Munster. I think Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh in 06 were the last players we signed directly from Munster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:His point still remains true though, they would not be the players they are now had they stayed at Munster. 2 of them did move abroad first, but using the modern example of Whitten, it would have been so much better had he moved to Munster instead of Downey, and instead of heading abroad.

Would it have been that much better if he joined Munster? In what sense?

Munster needed a replacement for Mafi. Whitten is younger than Downey, a better player than Downey, and Ireland are also having trouble at 12. He is behind Wallace at Ulster, but at Munster he would have been given the chance to start since Mafi was leaving. Which means more options for Ireland. The fact he is abroad means he will get less recognition.

I think you can wave goodbye to ever returning to your home province if you move to one of the big 3. For instance, if Tommy Bowe had moved to Leinster/Munster, he would never have gone back to Ulster. With regard to Whitten, he is about the same age as Ivan Dineen & Danny Barnes (not to mention JJ Hanrahan), so he would be blocking their development and I think I'd prefer not to have players who have one eye on getting back to their home province.

I really don't see the problem with young players heading over to play in another league and coming back again. Sean Dougal has worked out well for instance in the way he has come to Munster.

Whitten is a good direct runner but he was in an Ulster team that have a gameplan that depends on a very different type of 12. He was a round peg in a square hole at Ulster, but he was also highly rated enough they tried to work him into the team where they could. He was let go because of Luke Marshall. They can't both get the gametime they need and Marshall suits our style of play better. Ulster had a surplus at 12.

Truth is, Whitten is very highly thought of. Expect to see him back in an Ulster shirt at some point in his future career. What his stock soar in the Premiership next season. You heard it here first.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

red_stag wrote:Kingshu,

Muster sent Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin over to Leinster. They would not be the players they are now had they remained.

I'd say you had your tongue fairly bet into yer cheek when you wrote that.

Keatley, Ronan and Jones being "sent" the other way. I remember Cheika being livid after Jones signed for Munster. I think Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh in 06 were the last players we signed directly from Munster.

I think Cronin might regret his move to Connacht (with Flannery's injury). He would be undisputed first choice Munster hooker now if he had remained in Munster. He would have benefited too with Flannery as his role model.

It will be interesting to see how he does for Exeter next season. They have a strong centre partnership in Naqelevuki and Shoemark. If he makes it into their first choice side, he will have done really well.

Interesting comment from Jerry Flannery about the young Munster players. I'd imagine that there would be a similar feeling in the other provinces about wanting to play for your province for the right reason.

But there are a lot of new, good young players who've come in too, and it's good for them that we've gone as well because now it's really up to them. They work hard and they love playing for Munster for the right reasons

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/jerry-flannery-we-need-to-have-greater-expectations-of-ireland-3175447.html

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

red_stag wrote:Kingshu,

Muster sent Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin over to Leinster. They would not be the players they are now had they remained.

I'd say you had your tongue fairly bet into yer cheek when you wrote that.

Keatley, Ronan and Jones being "sent" the other way. I remember Cheika being livid after Jones signed for Munster. I think Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh in 06 were the last players we signed directly from Munster.

I think Cronin might regret his move to Connacht (with Flannery's injury). He would be undisputed first choice Munster hooker now if he had remained in Munster. He would have benefited too with Flannery as his role model.

I think you could well be right there.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

red_stag wrote:Kingshu,

Muster sent Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin over to Leinster. They would not be the players they are now had they remained.

I'd say you had your tongue fairly bet into yer cheek when you wrote that.

Keatley, Ronan and Jones being "sent" the other way. I remember Cheika being livid after Jones signed for Munster. I think Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh in 06 were the last players we signed directly from Munster.

I think Cronin might regret his move to Connacht (with Flannery's injury). He would be undisputed first choice Munster hooker now if he had remained in Munster. He would have benefited too with Flannery as his role model.

I think you could well be right there.

Im sure he's happy that he moved to leinster because of that HC winners medal that he has

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

red_stag wrote:Kingshu,

Muster sent Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin over to Leinster. They would not be the players they are now had they remained.

I'd say you had your tongue fairly bet into yer cheek when you wrote that.

Keatley, Ronan and Jones being "sent" the other way. I remember Cheika being livid after Jones signed for Munster. I think Trevor Hogan and Stephen Keogh in 06 were the last players we signed directly from Munster.

I think Cronin might regret his move to Connacht (with Flannery's injury). He would be undisputed first choice Munster hooker now if he had remained in Munster. He would have benefited too with Flannery as his role model.

I think you could well be right there.

Im sure he's happy that he moved to leinster because of that HC winners medal that he has

Don't a lot of the lads say that the big thing about winning the HC was to do it with your friends/lads you grew up with. Bet Cronin would love to be in Munster playing with all the lads he grew up with, (schools and age grades in front of family and friends!) He is also in a club where most the lads of his age grew up/played together as well from a young age.

People can make new friends you know, Sin.

Doc used to always throw that one out about having "2 hc medals in his ar$e pocket" I suppose it's our turn.

A lot of the Irish posters on here might not like what they are about to read here, but as an outsider with an interest in Irish rugby as competitors what I think the provinces should do is sacrifice immediate success for long term riches for both region and national rugby. You must be living in a cave if you have not seen what is going on here in Wales, finances have pushed Wales into a corner with regards to how we utilise our own grown talent, no longer can the regions in Wales afford house hold names from the SH even our established Welsh players are casting their gaze far afield for more money, as a result we are unearthing gems, John Davies, Lloyd Williams, Sam Warburton, Justin Tuperic, Scott Williams, Alex Cuthbert, George North, Dan Lydiate, Toby Faletua, not to mention the younger players who are knocking on the door for international honours, just look at the U20 world cup squad. O.k we have had a couple of barren seasons in Europe, and probably will for the next few years but when these kids hit their prime things will change. What I can see is the fact that the Irish provinces are so used to success they will try to maintain it at any cost, weather that be by buying in foreign talent to shore up the inefficiencies at the province or keep flogging the once very talented players and at the same time blocking the development of younger players. It is almost like a drug to the provinces in Ireland, they have had a taste of the big time, now they want to keep it at any cost. There is only one way out of this, and that is to start looking from within, use the talent you are capable of producing, even if it means taking a couple of hidings on the way, you will soon see the benefit of it all.

ah yer just jealous

LordDowlais wrote:A lot of the Irish posters on here might not like what they are about to read here, but as an outsider with an interest in Irish rugby as competitors what I think the provinces should do is sacrifice immediate success for long term riches for both region and national rugby. You must be living in a cave if you have not seen what is going on here in Wales, finances have pushed Wales into a corner with regards to how we utilise our own grown talent, no longer can the regions in Wales afford house hold names from the SH even our established Welsh players are casting their gaze far afield for more money, as a result we are unearthing gems, John Davies, Lloyd Williams, Sam Warburton, Justin Tuperic, Scott Williams, Alex Cuthbert, George North, Dan Lydiate, Toby Faletua, not to mention the younger players who are knocking on the door for international honours, just look at the U20 world cup squad. O.k we have had a couple of barren seasons in Europe, and probably will for the next few years but when these kids hit their prime things will change. What I can see is the fact that the Irish provinces are so used to success they will try to maintain it at any cost, weather that be by buying in foreign talent to shore up the inefficiencies at the province or keep flogging the once very talented players and at the same time blocking the development of younger players. It is almost like a drug to the provinces in Ireland, they have had a taste of the big time, now they want to keep it at any cost. There is only one way out of this, and that is to start looking from within, use the talent you are capable of producing, even if it means taking a couple of hidings on the way, you will soon see the benefit of it all.

To be fair Lord Dowlais, I think there are still more NWQ players, playing in Wales than NIQ players playing in Ireland.

I don't believe there to be any Problems with the Provinces or National team, the National team may not be going great but it has still got plenty of very very good players to call on.

Just because Wales (Scarlets in particular) had to play young players due to finanaces and have produced a good batch, does not mean everyone should copy this.

What is wrong with developing players by bringing them into a winning team, as giving them game time building them up, after all this is how
Rob Kearney ERC European Player of the Year 2012.
Sean O'Brien ERC European Player of the Year for 2011
ROG* ERC European Player of the Year for 2010
*Ronan O'Gara selected as Best player of the 1st 15 years by illustrious Panel as part of ERC15 in 2010
Ferris, Earls, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Zebo, Gilroy and a host of other great players came through this way, is there really a need to change it?

With that sort of player development, why should we put out youth Provinces, when we don't have to?

To say they want to keep success at any cost is wrong, we are very tough lines on NIQ recuitment and numbers, Irish international rest periods etc, much stricter than Wales (how many NWQ players did Blues have over the limit and what was the punishment?).

Wales were forced to,and had a talented generation, to produce a crop of players. Ireland Produce quality year after year after year, and remain competitive in all competitions while doing so.

Just to add If Ireland had a crop of players like Wales just had I think they would have been fast tracked as well.

It just depends when they players come alone, sometimes you will develop a few each year, and somtimes a load will come, doesn't mean your doing something wrong because you don't get a crop through.

Think when BOD, ROG, POC etc came through as a crop, crops of great players just sometimes come through in a group, and sometimes them come through slowly each year.

Wales will be doing the same as Irand bringing a few players through each year, untill there is another crop of players - could be 10 or more years before you get antoer group like the ones ou just got.

I agree with Dowlis actually. Yes we have produced some fantastic players across a number of positions but this masks the fact that in other positions like the tight 5 forwards and midfield we haven't produced anywhere near enough quality or depth over the past decade.

That is in large part down to the number of NIEs in certain positions. There have been far too many NIQ props and second rows over the years as well as too many 3/4s.

Until the IRFU take a stricter line on recruitment then we will continue to struggle to produce the depth and quality needed to compete with the top sides.

I agree Rodders but the IRFU are tightening up on this, they always had the final say, but hopefully they are not the yes men they were.

Thats all thats really needed, a po-active IRFU, don't need to suddenly, play younth teams to develop players at the expense of Pro 12 and H-cup. tweeking the system rather than changing it wholesale/

No we don't need to do what Wales did but the IRFU need to really step in and be more proactive to try and change things over the next 3-4 seasons.

Honestly I think the NIQ quota should be slashed to 3 and then eventually 2, with only 1 player per area - forwards, half back or 3/4s.

The IRFU are part of the problem too by giving out long term contracts to aging players. I think over 30s should only be allowed 1 year rolling extensions.

This would help free up opportunities for young guys to come through because right now the 1st team opportunities are very limited(outside the rabo) and its too easy for the provinces to sign overseas players rather than risk academy players.

Kingshu wrote:I agree Rodders but the IRFU are tightening up on this, they always had the final say, but hopefully they are not the yes men they were.

Thats all thats really needed, a po-active IRFU, don't need to suddenly, play younth teams to develop players at the expense of Pro 12 and H-cup. tweeking the system rather than changing it wholesale/

Seriously ? I know they came out with a plan a few months back but all I am hearing at the moment is that the provinces are signing young South Africans and some New Zealanders. Also how long are players like D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara going to be centrally contracted for ?

LordDowlais wrote:
Seriously ? I know they came out with a plan a few months back but all I am hearing at the moment is that the provinces are signing young South Africans and some New Zealanders. Also how long are players like D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara going to be centrally contracted for ?

BOD and ROG end of 2013 season, D'arcy and O'Connell 2014.

Personally I don't think any player who won't 100% be at the 2015 RWC shouldn't have a central contract.

rodders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Seriously ? I know they came out with a plan a few months back but all I am hearing at the moment is that the provinces are signing young South Africans and some New Zealanders. Also how long are players like D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara going to be centrally contracted for ?

BOD and ROG end of 2013 season, D'arcy and O'Connell 2014.

Personally I don't think any player who won't 100% be at the 2015 RWC shouldn't have a central contract.

So Irish rugby is all about the World Cup? Everything builds up to that.

Kingshu wrote:Just to add If Ireland had a crop of players like Wales just had I think they would have been fast tracked as well.

It just depends when they players come alone, sometimes you will develop a few each year, and somtimes a load will come, doesn't mean your doing something wrong because you don't get a crop through.

Think when BOD, ROG, POC etc came through as a crop, crops of great players just sometimes come through in a group, and sometimes them come through slowly each year.

Wales will be doing the same as Irand bringing a few players through each year, untill there is another crop of players - could be 10 or more years before you get antoer group like the ones ou just got.

I guess you have not been watching much of the Welsh regions or the national side then. We have Habberfield, Bevington, Harry Robinson, Steffan Jones, Adam Warren, Ross Jones, Rhodri Jones already making inroads at their regions, also with the U20 doing well, with players like Samson Lee, Steffan Jones, Hamilton I think we will be seeing a lot more in about ten months, not ten years.

MBTGOG wrote:

rodders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Seriously ? I know they came out with a plan a few months back but all I am hearing at the moment is that the provinces are signing young South Africans and some New Zealanders. Also how long are players like D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara going to be centrally contracted for ?

BOD and ROG end of 2013 season, D'arcy and O'Connell 2014.

Personally I don't think any player who won't 100% be at the 2015 RWC shouldn't have a central contract.

So Irish rugby is all about the World Cup? Everything builds up to that.

No not everything but that is the pinacle of the game, not the Heino or 6N.

If you want to do well then you need to plan and prepare not just plod along and hope things fall into place 2 years down the line.

Munsty it is possible to have short term and long term goals you know....however if you prioritise the former then you cannot expect to succeed at the latter.

The two should not be mutually exclusive.

Not really sure that the Welsh regions have really had any choice in their actions. The Dragons have always been the poor relation of the other regions, and always had to make do with what their finances can afford, which tends to be youngsters and cheap NWQ bulk. The Scarlets, Ospreys and Blues all splashed as much cash as possible on NWQs and 'stars'. Then as each of them ran out of cash they dropped were forced into playing younger cheaper options. The likes of Jon Davies, George North etc would have made it into the regions even when we were buying NWQs because they are good players. However the likes of Cai Griffiths, Scott Andrews, Nathan Williams, Simon Gardener etc may have been kept out by NWQs, but then in fairness these lads have not really improved/graced the international side either.

The Irish provences are playing good rugby and winning things left right and centre. Yeah there is room for improvement, and if there isn't then that would be sad as it would mean the quality of rugby would never be able to go up. There are a number of NIQ players in the Provincial squads however they seem to be able to compete in both the Rabo and HEC, which the regions are not yet capable of doing. Also the Irish international side is not at its best right now, however there are plenty of quality youngsters to call upon, the thing is they are not being called up/played. That is not the provincial sides fault.

The provinces arent the problem, we need them to be succesful to keep the growing interest and support for rugby in the country.

LordDowlais wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I agree Rodders but the IRFU are tightening up on this, they always had the final say, but hopefully they are not the yes men they were.

Thats all thats really needed, a po-active IRFU, don't need to suddenly, play younth teams to develop players at the expense of Pro 12 and H-cup. tweeking the system rather than changing it wholesale/

Seriously ? I know they came out with a plan a few months back but all I am hearing at the moment is that the provinces are signing young South Africans and some New Zealanders. Also how long are players like D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara going to be centrally contracted for ?

A part of this is you only hear news about signings, you wouldn't get a BBC article about a player moving from a development contract to a Professional contract, the Provinces all have plenty of young players progressing, Leinster even have more than they need. Whitten, Gaston, ToL etc haven't left for more money but because competation for places is so feirce. The Provinces (Connacht except) are limited to 4 NIQ and one project player, the rest are IQ.

Only Leinster could put out an all IQ team and be competative, for the others it is better to have a limited number of NIQ players, to be the senor players and add Leadership and experience when the internationals are away/rested. Also they bring a different way of doing things to help develop the younger players all round game. Plus its better for a young player to learn how to grind out a close win, than have a heroic loss, experence in grinding out results and playing in the big games is important for developing players.

Without the NIQ I'd say there was less chance of grinding out close wins and of reaching the latter stages of competations.

rodders wrote:Munsty it is possible to have short term and long term goals you know....however if you prioritise the former then you cannot expect to succeed at the latter.

The two should not be mutually exclusive.

True, but neither should long term goals outweigh the short term ones.

Medium term goals are the answer,

Seams to be DK's plan, we'll not try for this years 6 nations, but not really plan for the world cup either!

The only thing the provinces need to change is giving players like DOC, ROG etc central contracts and then the IRFU need to get rid of kidney. The NIQ players are not the problem when you consider we only have 5. Then we will we our national team improve

Kingshu wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I agree Rodders but the IRFU are tightening up on this, they always had the final say, but hopefully they are not the yes men they were.

Thats all thats really needed, a po-active IRFU, don't need to suddenly, play younth teams to develop players at the expense of Pro 12 and H-cup. tweeking the system rather than changing it wholesale/

Seriously ? I know they came out with a plan a few months back but all I am hearing at the moment is that the provinces are signing young South Africans and some New Zealanders. Also how long are players like D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara going to be centrally contracted for ?

A part of this is you only hear news about signings, you wouldn't get a BBC article about a player moving from a development contract to a Professional contract, the Provinces all have plenty of young players progressing, Leinster even have more than they need. Whitten, Gaston, ToL etc haven't left for more money but because competation for places is so feirce. The Provinces (Connacht except) are limited to 4 NIQ and one project player, the rest are IQ.

Only Leinster could put out an all IQ team and be competative, for the others it is better to have a limited number of NIQ players, to be the senor players and add Leadership and experience when the internationals are away/rested. Also they bring a different way of doing things to help develop the younger players all round game. Plus its better for a young player to learn how to grind out a close win, than have a heroic loss, experence in grinding out results and playing in the big games is important for developing players.

Without the NIQ I'd say there was less chance of grinding out close wins and of reaching the latter stages of competations.

Yes but rarely do I miss a Rabo/HC game when a Welsh team is involved and I am yet to see an Irish province fielding up and comming tallent except when Leinster came to the Ospreys when the WC was on. The Irish provinces have their HC teams and their Rabo teams and hardly ever do you see them using youngsters, Munster are starting to buck the trend with players like Zebo but like here in Wales that is out of need rather than choice and he is one of a very, very few I have seen. Where are all the young props ? Where are all the young second rowers ? Where are all the young backs ?

Dowlais, leinster and munster have the exact same amount of foreign players as the ospreys and scarlets for the new season. If you look at the squads last year the ospreys and scarlets actually had more foreign players.So its hard to blame our national problems on NIQ Players

"What the provinces should be doing to improve."

Get rid of those damn Leinster and Ulster mob for a start

Blydi upstarts

LordDowlais wrote:Only Leinster could put out an all IQ team and be competative

Nah man!!

01 Marcus Horan
02 Mike Sherry
03 Stephen Archer
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Peter O'Mahony
07 Niall Ronan
08 James Coughlan
09 Conor Murray
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Simon Zebo
12 JJ Hanrahan
13 Keith Earls
14 Johne Murphy
15 Denis Hurley

16 Damien Varley
17 John Ryan
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 Tommy O'Donnell
20 Peter Stringer
21 Ian Keatley
22 Felix Jones

Not world beating but certainly able to compete.

LordDowlais wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I agree Rodders but the IRFU are tightening up on this, they always had the final say, but hopefully they are not the yes men they were.

Thats all thats really needed, a po-active IRFU, don't need to suddenly, play younth teams to develop players at the expense of Pro 12 and H-cup. tweeking the system rather than changing it wholesale/

Seriously ? I know they came out with a plan a few months back but all I am hearing at the moment is that the provinces are signing young South Africans and some New Zealanders. Also how long are players like D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara going to be centrally contracted for ?

A part of this is you only hear news about signings, you wouldn't get a BBC article about a player moving from a development contract to a Professional contract, the Provinces all have plenty of young players progressing, Leinster even have more than they need. Whitten, Gaston, ToL etc haven't left for more money but because competation for places is so feirce. The Provinces (Connacht except) are limited to 4 NIQ and one project player, the rest are IQ.

Only Leinster could put out an all IQ team and be competative, for the others it is better to have a limited number of NIQ players, to be the senor players and add Leadership and experience when the internationals are away/rested. Also they bring a different way of doing things to help develop the younger players all round game. Plus its better for a young player to learn how to grind out a close win, than have a heroic loss, experence in grinding out results and playing in the big games is important for developing players.

Without the NIQ I'd say there was less chance of grinding out close wins and of reaching the latter stages of competations.

Yes but rarely do I miss a Rabo/HC game when a Welsh team is involved and I am yet to see an Irish province fielding up and comming tallent except when Leinster came to the Ospreys when the WC was on. The Irish provinces have their HC teams and their Rabo teams and hardly ever do you see them using youngsters, Munster are starting to buck the trend with players like Zebo but like here in Wales that is out of need rather than choice and he is one of a very, very few I have seen. Where are all the young props ? Where are all the young second rowers ? Where are all the young backs ?

Leinster played nearly 50 different players last season.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Dowlais, leinster and munster have the exact same amount of foreign players as the ospreys and scarlets for the new season. If you look at the squads last year the ospreys and scarlets actually had more foreign players.So its hard to blame our national problems on NIQ Players

I am not on about NIQ/NWQ players, I am mostly on about older players being kept at to long when there should be alternitaves to look at, for example how old is Cullen ? As good as he has been for Leinster, he as always played and perhaps they should have blooded a youngster in that position by now.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Dowlais, leinster and munster have the exact same amount of foreign players as the ospreys and scarlets for the new season. If you look at the squads last year the ospreys and scarlets actually had more foreign players.So its hard to blame our national problems on NIQ Players

I am not on about NIQ/NWQ players, I am mostly on about older players being kept at to long when there should be alternitaves to look at, for example how old is Cullen ? As good as he has been for Leinster, he as always played and perhaps they should have blooded a youngster in that position by now.

But you made reference to it earlier and now your changing your arguement to older players now. As mick says we played nearly 50 different players last season which included a lot of young players. Yes we do need to look at some of our older players and see if their time is up,but we do play a lot of youngsters in the rabo

Leinster have 5 props in the Academy. Some of them very promising.

24 players in total. This season we took in a full pack bar tight head in year one.

In their 40 man senior squad there are 8 players over 30. and 15 under 25.

Of the 8 only Leo Cullen (34) and Brian O'Driscoll are over 33.

Lord - to be fair you could have asked a season before last how good is Martyn Williams, Stephen Jones or Shane Williams. They were all getting on and taking up shirt space that could have been ocupied by Sam Warburton, Rhys Priestland and Tom Prydie. The Irish Provinces have probably got a better ballence than us.

I am not disputing weather they are there or not, as I believe that Ireland has some really promising young players, it's just that you do not use them enough. The one time I saw them get used they were tooled by the Ospreys during the WC, then rather than let them keep on learning as soon as the WC was over the old guard came back. Also you say that Leinster only have Brian O'Driscoll Leo Cullen are over 33, then how old are Gordon D'Arcy and Mike Ross ? Also has Shane Horgan retired ?

Yes shane horgan retired

Anyway I have given my tuppence to this thread and now I am getting sidetracked into a debate about weather Ireland has any young players, so I will now take my leave. Just as long as you all know that I think Ireland DO have quality young players, it's just the provinces are to scared to use them as they are scared of loosing their status as the best in Europe.

There were three Irish teams in the knock-out stages of the HEC this seaso and all all-Ireland final. They're doing fine.

It you're askng what they need to be doing to improve the national squad, simple - lobby central office to let Kidney go.

Ulster have a 20 year old destined to be first choice fly half next season. Their new coach is a former Baby Blacks coach, picked to develop talent. Our previous head coach is working in the academy to develop new talent, as is Allen Clarke, who was charge of elite development for the entire IRFU. A good 25 year old inside centre did not have his contract renewed because it was thought that the upcoming 21 year old kid has more potential.

Focussing on anything other than Kidney and national coaching as being at the heart of Ireland's problems is a smokescreen.

To be fair you can't just ship of older players because you want a younger player in, if the older player is competative and winning the shirt on merit, not reputation then why not keep him on, with less games like BOD, games have to be managed.

Also we hark on about player loyality, it works two ways, we can't except a player to give his best years (when he could have been earning more else where) and then ship him on cos hes a bit older. If you want players to be loyal to the Province the Province has to give a little back in return, and thats what we do by managuing them to prolong their careers.

If Leinster just shipped on players like D'arcy who have given their careers to Leinster, would SoB etc not be tempted to move to France, but by sticking with the, limiting games and looking after them and their careers, we give these players reason to stay, as long as they are still wining the shirt on merit, they may find them selves moving down the pecking order for a year or two and then decide to retire.

Don Alfonso wrote:There were three Irish teams in the knock-out stages of the HEC this seaso and all all-Ireland final. They're doing fine.

It you're askng what they need to be doing to improve the national squad, simple - lobby central office to let Kidney go.

Ulster have a 20 year old destined to be first choice fly half next season. Their new coach is a former Baby Blacks coach, picked to develop talent. Our previous head coach is working in the academy to develop new talent, as is Allen Clarke, who was charge of elite development for the entire IRFU. A good 25 year old inside centre did not have his contract renewed because it was thought that the upcoming 21 year old kid has more potential.

Focussing on anything other than Kidney and national coaching as being at the heart of Ireland's problems is a smokescreen.

Total agree and well said. The provinces have provided the perfect platform to irish rugby and have increased the interest in rugby in this country . Yes some minor tweaks can be made but to blame the provinces for the national teams bad performances is baffling

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway I have given my tuppence to this thread and now I am getting sidetracked into a debate about weather Ireland has any young players, so I will now take my leave. Just as long as you all know that I think Ireland DO have quality young players, it's just the provinces are to scared to use them as they are scared of loosing their status as the best in Europe.

just as long as you understand hat we disagree .

you have that notion in your head and you want the facts to agree with you whether they do or not.

As national teams Wales have won the recent close games against a badly coached Ireland. Ireland have won loads at provincial level.

apart from grand slam years Ireland have been ahead for the previous 10 years nationally.

Dowlais has a point until the last 2 years or so the provinces didn't really pick young players Munster in particular, Our emphasis is changing now and there are young guys getting more and more game time. Ulster and Leinster leading the charge. I think you are very harsh on Dowlais there is some merit to what he is saying.

I think Dowlis is spot on.

You guys can't handle the truth.

We suck.

There is a little bit of merit to what he is saying but he says that we never play our young players and as a leinster fan i cannot accept that.

I agree I think Dowlais gets a bit rap and unfairly gets dismissed as a wum by many.

There is a lot of truth to what he says.

We have seen lots of teams just sign foreigner after foreigner so as to stay winning.

Examples:

In the centre since 2006: Munster have Trevor Halstead, Lifeimi Mafi, Rua Tipoki, Will Chambers, Save Tokula, Jean de Villiers, Casey Laulala - completely unacceptable.

In a similar way Leinster had Will Green, Ollie le Roux, Heinke van der Merwe, Stan Wright and Nathan White.

Rather than the experienced foreigner helping the Irish guys to develop for a long time this was not really the case.