Who's gonna partner Ma'a now...

Now that Conrad Smith has been ruled out of the first two Bledisloe Cup matches?
Does Hansen choose SBW before he heads to japan or...
Next cab off the rank is Tamati Ellison.
He would be my pick.
Sayonnara Sonny!

Well they're going to have to call up a few new centres to the squad. I've not seen much of Fruean, has he improved enough to stop being as much a liability as a threat?

There's also the young 12 at the 'canes whose name I can't remember. He has looked a good footballing option alongside Barritt and Smith.

Ellison for mine. Watch the Crusaders Hurricanes game and see why Freuan shouldn't be anywhere near the team yet. Then watch Smith and see why he's the best in the world. Big loss that man.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well they're going to have to call up a few new centres to the squad. I've not seen much of Fruean, has he improved enough to stop being as much a liability as a threat?

There's also the young 12 at the 'canes whose name I can't remember. He has looked a good footballing option alongside Barritt and Smith.

The jury is still out on Fruean. Still a work in progress.
The 12 playing for the Huricanes is Bateman. He had a spell in Japan but now back in NZ. Only 24/25 yrs old.
But that would mean Ma'a plays centre. Not that it would concern Ma'a too much.
I'm predicting big International season from Ma'a. He will hit the ground running. Beware of a wounded Nonu!

Defo Ellison. Has matured even more since leaving Wellington for the land of the rising Yen and since coming back has looked an international player, moreso than when he left (1 cap v Italy)

Hansen may play Cruden/Carter/Nonu. I don't saying he should, or thinking this, but he might.

Depending in injuries Hansen may go with what AWOP has said, or Carter, SBW, Kahui. Both Williams and Nonu have played 13 in their careers have they not? Should not be a problem, but Smith is a huge loss.

I can't think Hansen would put Carter at 12, he is to important in directing traffic from 10, Nonu at 12, I think it is worth giving Fruean a go.

I know everyone in NZ says he is questionable in defence, but surely that can be worked on?

It can Biltong but not against the Wallaby backline.

Ellison easy. Its also only for the Oz matches it seems. Frueans ahead of everone else as back up and he does deserve the chance.

Please don't anyone mention a cruden carter nonu backline. Nonu is not a 13 and carter at 12 this year was an abysmal setup.

Carter and cruden must play 10. Nonu must play 12. Bateman looks the next best to back Nonu up and has thrived under Hammets canes rennaisance.

Carter/ cruden...nonu/ bateman... ellison/ fruean as the 10, 12, 13 pairs but Id avoid a nonu fruean combo until a big lead is established as against oz they'll be turned and end up running into eachother.

Does Andre Taylor have any midfield experience from the naki perhaps?

Conrad Smith will miss at least 3 matches maybe more,Ellison has pulled a hamstring,Kahui is out all season.Nonu at 12 ,Bateman at 13 is one possible combo.SBW may be asked for a last goodbye if he wants it,Adam Whitelock
at 13,Nonu 12.Or even Ryan Crotty at 12 and Nonu at 13,of these Adam Whitelock is solid and intelligent.For me the nearest to Conrad available.

Whitelock was the other I thought of but he's fairly raw and has mainly benched for crusaders this year. Nonu needs someone reliable at centre while finds his own form but he's also proven he's more of an individual than a team man in terms of his natural game. He's not happy until he's gone on one of his solo bursts.

He's learnt the passing game but mainly cos he's had to but in looking at his japan and blues jaunts he's not an inspirer of others in the smith mould.

Thats why having he and fruean wouldn't work under pressure. They'll both try and do it on their own rather than work together.

Didn't know ellison was injured. Interesting conundrum for hansen but where we fall down there wre gaining in other positions. Front five is getting stronger. Mccaw is able to back 8. Kerr barlow is emerging as a second 9. Were ok at wing and fullback so all in all a good chance to lok for genuine centres as smiths not the youngest kid on the block.

By the sounds of it Ellison will be touch and go as to whether he is fit or not and with it being a hamstring they won't want to rush him.
For me he would be the clear choice to play 13 if he is able to play.
Crotty and Bateman are both mainly 12s so if either were to be given a go it would mean nonu shifting out to 13 which shouldn't be to much of a challenge as he has played there a lot.
Adam Whitelock could be a shout, he is a similar style to smith and rarely makes a mistake, not a flash player but does the basics and is reliable. He has started the majority of games this season at the crusaders either at 13 or 14. Freuan has been great one week and poor the next, I think he would relish international rugby but i don't think the selectors will go with him.
The other name i have heard being touted about in nz is ben smith switching to 13 as he has played a lot there previously and again has similar characteristics to conrad smith.

For me I'd go Nonu at 12 and ellison at 13 if he is fit.

10. Carter
12. Nonu
13. Cruden

It's what Lancaster would do

I just read this in the paper...

'However Fruean's health mean he still struggles to stay with a high tempo for an entire match'

Health, anyone know what's wrong with Fruean?

EBOP

Its his heart,,

But talking about New Zealand centres, I see Wayne Smith is starting Andrew Horrell again against the Crusaders at centre, I get the feeling that Smith regards this as something worth putting a bit of work in progress into.

Yeah Robbie Fruean just after he had helped nz win the u19 world cup he came down with rheumatic fever then discovered he had a condition called pancarditis which is an inflammation of the heart, he had to undergo open heart surgery to repair it.
He then had to miss out on some of the season in 2010 as he had an irregular heart beat.
His illness has meant he still isn't at 100% fitness wise and can effect his ability to keep up a good level off stamina over 80mins.

Majestic83 wrote:By the sounds of it Ellison will be touch and go as to whether he is fit or not and with it being a hamstring they won't want to rush him.
For me he would be the clear choice to play 13 if he is able to play.
Crotty and Bateman are both mainly 12s so if either were to be given a go it would mean nonu shifting out to 13 which shouldn't be to much of a challenge as he has played there a lot.
Adam Whitelock could be a shout, he is a similar style to smith and rarely makes a mistake, not a flash player but does the basics and is reliable. He has started the majority of games this season at the crusaders either at 13 or 14. Freuan has been great one week and poor the next, I think he would relish international rugby but i don't think the selectors will go with him.
The other name i have heard being touted about in nz is ben smith switching to 13 as he has played a lot there previously and again has similar characteristics to conrad smith.

For me I'd go Nonu at 12 and ellison at 13 if he is fit.

Tend to agree with this, Maj, think Whitelock might be the answer rather than shifting Ma'a around to make room for another 12 or having Creuan come in as a bosher at 13

Apparently when he takes his jersey off, the sugery scars across his chest look like Spaghetti junction.

Wow! Thanks guys for explaining this.

Yeah, agree about Whitelock, the crusaders have always had these reliable players over the years, littered amongst the stars that get all the attention. Crotty is another at the moment.

10. Cruden
12. Carter
13. Nonu

That would be an interesting combination to say the least.

The All Blacks without Smith are a lot more vulnerable

Laurie, think Horrell was originally a 10 wasn't he? Or was drafted as cover in that position. He's done well this year.

Yeah Horrell is normally a 10 who has been restricted to playing 15 at the chiefs. Been battling with Robbie Robinson all season for the 15 jersey who also is a 10 having to play 15 due to the amount of talent at 10 in nz. Robbie Robinson seems to be ahead of him at 15 starting more of the important games.

The thing here is that its Wayne Smith, yes they were short of a centre the last time they played the Cantabrians, but I somewhat get the feeling that Smith has seen something, that he likes the look of.

We shall see in a day or twos time.

isn't it the AB way that when in doubt, pick a fullback as the centre?

Tough choice for Shag. hopefully his decision will be successful

dallym wrote:isn't it the AB way that when in doubt, pick a fullback as the centre?

Long been a problem with our selectors. They dont really know what makes a good 13 as well as they do other positions.
Some positions are obvious- good or bad. A good 10 doesnt miss touch, hits good up and unders, directs the play one way or another.

A good wing scores tries, uses his pace, takes and returns up and unders.

You could run through most positions and its obvious- its usually based on what they do and dont do with the ball.

With Centre (and to a point 12) its not so obvious. Putting a good ball in front of the winger used to be the primary trait of a good centre. Not in todays world- Danie Fourie certainly wasnt a great Centre for that reason!.

Its about having an awareness of the area around them in midfield both on attack and defence. Its about knowing the variations different sides use to occupy that space and beyond it, and know how, when at where to shut it down, or open it up, either through a well timed run or tackle.

Thats why I hate filling centre positions with players of other positions. They just dont know what to do. Players like Cullen, who loved the open range, had a license to run whenever and wherever he wanted. At centre he was hopeless. Centres more about controlling space not exploiting it endlessly any which way you can.

The great centres are always excellent defenders for that reason. They have a knack of knowing where the breaking point is, the point where the line will bust open or needs to be shut down and use excellent timing to pull off a try saving tackle or try creating run. And that sums up Smith perfectly- fantastic timing.

Thats also what Fruean lacks and why hes so hot and cold- he has good games when his individual flair shines, and bad when he doesnt know how to control the space around him. Gets away with it mostly at sxv, but gainst a full Ozzie attack probably wouldnt have a clue.

Not too worried about who they pick, as long as its a centre.

Thanks TM, learnt something there.

Wrt the ozzies, will their backline be back in full force by the 4N? All the big names we know and fear. Thought they weren't that sharp in the wales series, and their s15 sides have struggled in the backline a bit. Also, the the importance of combinations, is there any one oz s15 team that will provide the bulk of the players in the backline. They're scattered around a bit.

13 has always been the key area in the Nz setup and is a specialist position co-ordinating attack and defence.10,12,15 are filled by 5/8s more of a utility thing
Adam Whitelock is the best bet.Like many Crusaders over the years does tje basics well ,few frills but very effective. Team players not primadonnas that is what made Crusaders so good over the years.

yes they are ebop. The only wood they have on us at the mo is an extra two weeks in camp.
They could struggle this year and the oz argie match in argie could be one argie will target heavily and could well win it.
For us against SA a backline like this might go ok:
A smith, kerr barlow
Carter, cruden
Nonu,
Fruean
Savea, gear
Jane
Dagg

Big and tough through the middle mixed with pace in the back three. The bok backline won't take as much looking after if they kick a fair bit . Geez Id be tempted to put that sort of backline out in SA.

emack2 wrote:13 has always been the key area in the Nz setup and is a specialist position co-ordinating attack and defence.10,12,15 are filled by 5/8s more of a utility thing
Adam Whitelock is the best bet.Like many Crusaders over the years does tje basics well ,few frills but very effective. Team players not primadonnas that is what made Crusaders so good over the years.

You're not wrong there alan. That's always been the case. You can count on not more than one hand the players who would make the shortlist of the best AB xv last forty years.
Carter, mccaw, mehrtens, marshall and bachop.
In their previous heydays in the 80s it took team players like Dale atkins, victor simpson, Craig green, warwick taylor, even wayne smith and robbie deans to carry the day. No superstars' just good solid team players have always been the canterbury way. Quite the oposite of auckland and its gluttony of stars.

why? Did she get a divorce from Da'a?




I'll get me coat.....

You missed Shayne Philpott off your list Taylorman!

Ellison if he can make it back seems the most accomplished. If he's not ready I prefer the safety first option of Whitelock who can defend and look to release players on the outside rather than having a go himself like Fruean.

I definitely don't want to see any fullbacks or wings playing at OC and I don't want Carter and Nonu as a centre combination.

You're exactly right about closing down space on defence and opening it up on attack Taylorman. Smith leaves a big hole in that aspect. What we don't want is someone who is unable to make the right decisions on defence. I'd rather make sacrifices on attack rather than on defence. There's plenty of firepower elsewhere on the field. The Aussies will pounce on any perceived weakness so we need to be rock solid on defence. That's the appeal of Ellison and the fact, much like Smith, he's so deceptively strong and can create half chances through that strength. If not a boring but reliable option who's not going to leak holes in the defence. Safety first against that potent Aussie backline.

Dead right Kia. It'd be a different story if our forwards were more evenly matched but we can take them.

The Aussies are masters of living off scraps and manipulating defences. We need someone who is not impetuous in that position otherwise they'll get dragged away from where they should be and open up holes for Beale etc to run amok.

Richie's doing well at 8 but man we have Read there. Long term I'd like him as a 6. Really hope he gets some exposure there at some stage.

The question remains though whether Cooper, Beale, O'Connor wil be on fire first up in the Rugby Championship.

I think with the little rugby they have played and especially the moves Beale and O'Connor made their form will be questionable.

Or whether Beale will be in the team at all. I hope so. Personally I'd like to see him at 10 just to see what damage he could do even though that damage would be against us!

Whitelock? Have we lost our marbles? This guy is in cricketing parlance Military Medium and not Test Match standard. If he was, he’d have been there by now simply put. He may be safety first but this is Test Rugby, not a Friday night v the Cheetahs in Timaru....c’mon guys, the well isn’t that barren yet!

There’s what....three weeks until we kick off v the Convicts. Ample time to get over a hamstring pull....if it were a pull, then the press would be all over this by now trying to come up with the options and starting the panic mongering by seeing Whitelock was the only viable option but seeing as they haven’t I would suggest Ellison is more than likely to start v the Wannabies.

Beale did look very classy at 10 for the Rebels. O'Connor talked himself up as a 12 but I'm not sure he is really suited to that position, especially against the All Blacks I'd be tempted to add more meat to the midfield.

9.Genia
10.Cooper
11.JOC
12.McCabe
13.AAC
14.Ioane
15.Beale

That's a backline of real ability, the only player probably not that great is McCabe but seeing as his tackle count and hard running helps Aus out quite a bit he'd be worth keeping.

Any ABs centre partnership will be there to dominate that lot. A defensively naive OC will be exploited ruthlessly by that backthree and AAC.

Haha mintie. Rod Latham was a lethal opener as well as a strike bowler. Adam Whitelock is another Canterbury man who can get the job done perfectly well.

We don't have many options in the cupboard with Smith out. I think Ellison is the best bet but after that there are not a lot of options. Who would you put if Ellison isn't available?

yappysnap wrote:10. Carter
12. Nonu
13. Cruden

It's what Lancaster would do

Just a friendly question from a neutral. Does Cruden play centre? Looks kinda lightweight for that.

As much as Dagg does Don. That's a big no in case you thought that was a viable option!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/37602.html

Gotta laugh Kia, I think we view 1992 with rose-tinted glasses! Greatbatch did ok as a pinch hitter but Latham wasn’t exactly explosive as per his underwhelming stats above! Chimed in here and there with a few wickets but I’d suggest that it was because Larsen was able to build up immense pressure consistently at one end, so risks were taken against other (Latham) bowlers who managed to cash in so to speak. Watching his son play for NZ now is like an incredibly slow process of torture. Talking of wells being dry.......

I think that mini era revolved around the abilities of Crowe and Jones whilst relying on little contributions here and a massive team ethic

Anyway, we’re not too flush with options at 13 but using a winger who sometimes plays centre isn’t a good call in my opinion. If it were down to a short term measure, it could be diabolical but SBW would more than do a job there

Mate those are frightening statistics. He had a strike rate of over 2 balls per run!

Actually that's a good shout with SBW mintie. That's made me feel a bit better. Make no mistake, we've been blessed with Smith as our rock in the AB backline. You only miss something when it's not around. Like Dipak Patel opening the bowling...

Gaw don't start kia. Philpott, latham, blackadder himself, leon macs the other one they threw in at centre...all plodders... well...almost all.

Must agree with mintee. Not sold on whitelock yet. Ellisons the standout but from the news tonight sbw is still contracted till he goes to japan so he's the obvious choice even though not a 13. Not a lot to choose from and none with smiths knowledge of the very different attacks we'll face.

When does SBW fly out to Japan? I'd assume it was soon after Super Rugby ended so he'd be a no go.

Ellison not available? To be honest Freuan would be next cab off that rank. Unless Hsnsen wants Nonu at 13 and either Bateman or Crotty. Moving Nonu out again doesn't fill me with confidence though.

I still curse Hogan's hamstring. We could have won that thing...

dallym wrote:isn't it the AB way that when in doubt, pick a fullback as the centre?

Tough choice for Shag. hopefully his decision will be successful

That is so correct...Lets see if Shag learnt anything like what not to do off Ted.

disneychilly wrote:When does SBW fly out to Japan? I'd assume it was soon after Super Rugby ended so he'd be a no go.

Ellison not available? To be honest Freuan would be next cab off that rank. Unless Hsnsen wants Nonu at 13 and either Bateman or Crotty. Moving Nonu out again doesn't fill me with confidence though.

I still curse Hogan's hamstring. We could have won that thing...

His contract finishes with the NZRFU when his team has completed all their Super xv committments, this weekend is probably his last game in New Zealand for quite some time.

You missed out Captain Invisible. Mr Reuben Thorne. Unlike Brad he does have an e at the end of his name but sadly he was unlike Brad in many other ways...

I wish we did have someone like Yoda who was genuine cover for both sides of the scrum. Very rare and Ben Franks doesn't really have it. Another of your plodders Taylorman!

That's a worry if SBW can't play laurie. Let's all just cross our fingers for Ellison then.

I imagine they'll go with Carter at 10 then 12 SBW and 13 Nonu with both of them alternating in attack and defence when needed.

Actually that could work really well if Carter can control the game as per the norm. The opposition will never be sure who'll be coming in at 12 or 13 until the play happens so there'll be plenty of confusion.

Another + for Ellison is that he knows how the likes of Cory Jane and Ma’a Nonu play from their combo at Wellington.

My prediction is there is gonna a slightly angry Ma'a that lines up against Aust in August!
He might tolerate the SBW circus for a while but now....
Its Ma'as time!