Team GB

First topic message reminder :

Having watch Team GB bundle their way to a draw last night in the Olympic football a thought struck me, wouldn’t it be great to have a Team GB in the rugby union world, every four years we could form a team and take on the worlds bests SH teams in a test match series.

What do you guys think?

I don't think anyone is stoking up controversy. Some people think it's a bit of for an organisation to remove the choice from the player. However it was a joint decision by the IRFU, RFU, SRU and WRU so no issue (even if you were trying to invent one). In fact, the issue (if there is one) is that the RFU, SRU and WRU have said they won't pick Irish players, not the IRFU banning Irish players from playing for Great Britain.

Given the way the team is called Great Britain (why not UK?) it makes sense for them to represent Ireland (although it really doesn't matter to me).

hammer


the team is GB, there is also an Irish team

NI are the grey area, because they can pick and choose

we dont call it GB and NI(or the UK), and the Irish dont call theres ROI- because NI players can play for Ireland or GB. so its politically correct in this case to call the olyimpic team just GB(people actually missinterprete this as GB arrogance- when in actual fact its PC for ROI's or in this case Irelands benefit)

However there is no sense in playing in a team just because of what it is called. The individuals play for the team they associate themselves with.

But if it's supposed to represent NI as well and there are people in Northern Ireland who see 'GB' as their team it should be UK. Doesn't mean people from NI HAVE to represent them.

Plus I hate the name 'Team GB'

It doesnt represent NI as well though hammer-

The northern irish can either play for this invented country 'ireland'(not ROI- the real country) or the invented country/union of GB(not UK the full union).

If we called it UK on the flip side ireland would be called ROI and by that rationale all NI nationals would only play for team UK

offcourse there is no reason why we have to go by this logic- but it is seen as the most PC approach if you get my drift

we are basically saying ireland is the sporting nation- but you can play for gb if you want- rather than say the uk is the sporting nation and you can play for the republic of ireland if you want.

people forget that ireland is also incorrect. The sepreate country is the ROI not ireland.

anyway its all rubbish and bs- but there is simply no correct soloution unless we name the teams.

"England,Wales, Scotland and some of the Northern Irish"

"Republic of iIeland and some Northern Irish"


bit of a mouthfull right?

rodders wrote:
And its the right call by the IRFU to do so because it takes the decision out of the players hands

Y'see that is where you and I are fundamentally, diametrically opposed, Rodders. Why on Earth is it the right decision to take it out of the players' hands? I don't care what unions are involved, and what facile, one-size-fits-all arbitration a bunch of faceless sports management jobsworths have cooked up. It's ludicrous.

To be clear, I wouldn't lose any sleep if no NI player ever represented GB in rugby 7s. Don't care. But the idea that they can't, because it's a bit complicated and people like to imagine identity is this simple, primary colours issue, I find disrespectful. lazy and smug.

If Ireland field a 7s team, and there are no IRFU-contracted player on the team, then fair enough. I'll buy the "too much disruption" line. If there are, they're due a metaphorical slap. If, as is most likely, there's no Olympic Ireland 7s team, and NI players are not eligible for a GB team, then I think that's shocking. And that criticism is aimed at the RFU, the WRU and the SRU.

It's a point of principle. A recognition that people you respect and value may hold different ideas to you. The same way Keith Woods' point of principle meant that we now refer to the "British and Irish Lions".

But hey, whatever's easiest, right?

Any NI player should be allowed to play for gb- end of story- the whole point in this agreement we have is to give the individual the choice,

mystiroakey wrote:Any NI player should be allowed to play for gb- end of story- the whole point in this agreement we have is to give the individual the choice,

Precisely right.

Ironically, I doubt any would want to - if the Unions hadn't delivered a mighty decree from on high, the issue would probably never have raised it's head. But it genuinely makes me angry.

Firstly, you've all been SinE'd. Sorry to say it, hate to see it happen, but it is quite funny from the outside.

Secondly, even the fact this discussion is taking place is frustrating.

I met an Olympic Boxer and Bronze medalist who competed for Ireland at the one of the games Mary Peters was competing in for Britain. He spoke of her exceptionally fondly as many, many other people in NI do. They all stuck together, the Northern Irish athletes of the time. There was solidarity there beyond what flag they happened to be under. And the core value of Irish Rugby over the years has been solidarity, to an amazing and inspirational extent.

So lets not create an artificial divide where none need exist. It's a non-issue.

In fairness, I know better than to be Sin E'd. He has been posting about golf and David Beckham. I know nothing about golf, don't like it and haven't contributed to any discussion about Rory McIlroy, Gmac etc. And I've no interest in Beckham or Keane.

I understand your misgivings - these debates can easily end up sounding lile a shouting match between a bunch of Rangers and Celtic fans who've met in the bar on the ferry from Larne on their way to Glasgow for an Old Firm match. But honest, open debates about identity and NI are necessary and possible, if people show a bit of respect. If we can't talk about it, then there's an issue. Stepping in to "defuse" every dicussion with "sure, as long as we all just get along" stops anyone learning anything.

"So lets not create an artificial divide where none need exist. It's a non-issue"

your the one creating the divide by sticking up for not given the individual the choice

I was wondering if Sin e was a wum or not- because every time he argued he argued with lies.. If that lad is just making stuff up I feel for him thats all I can say.

mystiroakey wrote:It doesnt represent NI as well though hammer-

The northern irish can either play for this invented country 'ireland'(not ROI- the real country) or the invented country/union of GB(not UK the full union).

If we called it UK on the flip side ireland would be called ROI and by that rationale all NI nationals would only play for team UK

Well, thats misinformed anyway.

From the written Constitution:

THE STATE

Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.
Article 5
Ireland is a sovereign, independent, democratic state.

The only time Rep. of Ireland is used is to distinguish the soccer teams (which is now redundant anyway since players born in NI can play by right for the Rep. of Ireland).

"His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom has considered the position created by the new Constitution ... of the Irish Free State, in future to be described under the Constitution as 'Eire' [sic] or 'Ireland' ... [and] cannot recognize that the adoption of the name 'Eire' or 'Ireland', or any other provision of those articles [of the Irish constitution], involves any right to territory ... forming part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ... They therefore regard the use of the name 'Eire' or 'Ireland' in this connection as relating only to that area which has hitherto been known as the Irish Free State."

Don Alfonso wrote:In fairness, I know better than to be Sin E'd. He has been posting about golf and David Beckham. I know nothing about golf, don't like it and haven't contributed to any discussion about Rory McIlroy, Gmac etc. And I've no interest in Beckham or Keane.

I understand your misgivings - these debates can easily end up sounding lile a shouting match between a bunch of Rangers and Celtic fans who've met in the bar on the ferry from Larne on their way to Glasgow for an Old Firm match. But honest, open debates about identity and NI are necessary and possible, if people show a bit of respect. If we can't talk about it, then there's an issue. Stepping in to "defuse" every dicussion with "sure, as long as we all just get along" stops anyone learning anything.

I actually agree in full with this. Well said.

Sin e mate thanks for that- now go out and enjoy some sun pal-or maybe read up on your golf..

Mystir, I do believe the individual should have the choice. I just wish thy didn't have to choose. It's complex. I feel a mix of emotions regarding this.

I completely agree with you- its becoming ridiculas. as it stands nothing is right or wrong. combined we have royally ******* this up

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e mate thanks for that- now go out and enjoy some sun pal-or maybe read up on your golf..

Yea mystiroakey, you were wrong again.

I know enough about golf to know that P Harrington hasn't been winning in the US (and in some cases not making the cut) so that means that his marketing value/sponsorship deals are not going to be as good.

Your probably peed off that Rory dumped his English management in the first place and the reason he dumped it was because of the partying/drinking image that Chubby had which wouldn't go down well in the US anyway.

Don Alfonso wrote:

rodders wrote:
And its the right call by the IRFU to do so because it takes the decision out of the players hands

Y'see that is where you and I are fundamentally, diametrically opposed, Rodders. Why on Earth is it the right decision to take it out of the players' hands? I don't care what unions are involved, and what facile, one-size-fits-all arbitration a bunch of faceless sports management jobsworths have cooked up. It's ludicrous.

Don its right because it means the individual players are not put in a position where they have to choose, which would be stressful and controversial, as we see with the Golfers.

The IRFU have made a blanket descision across the board so there is no grey area. The IRFU have a responsibility for the whole of Irish rugby and as every single professional player in the country is directly or indirectly on the IRFU payroll so there is no way that they would allow players to declare for another rival country. If a player is not based in Ireland then they are outside the IRFUs juristiction and would be free to do as they pleased.

In terms of how they will enforce this well there is a lot of speculation here which I'd say is mostly fanciful nonsence. I'd say there is simply a gentlemans agreement with the other Unions not to select Irish players.

Considering NI based players represent Ireland at every level of rugby I don't really see that there is any evidence that they wish to represent anyone else, and if they did then they are quite entitled to move overseas if they don't wish to adhere to the IRFUs ruling.

Edit: Just to clarify in terms of individual sports, such as Golf and Athletics, I fully support the rights of the athletes to declare for who they choose. I just believe that a team sport like rugby is different and that the players need to stick together.

Sin e- your an absoloute joke, You know zip all about golf(you have proved that time after time)- dont even try and tar me with your xenophobic brush- Why the heck do i care what management firm rory signs upto. Gonna be honest you just wanted some ireland v england/britain debate from the start- As i have said before i am not gonna participoate. There are loads of forums out there were you can view your xenophobic mindset- Run along.

Don Alfonso wrote:In fairness, I know better than to be Sin E'd. He has been posting about golf and David Beckham. I know nothing about golf, don't like it and haven't contributed to any discussion about Rory McIlroy, Gmac etc. And I've no interest in Beckham or Keane.

I understand your misgivings - these debates can easily end up sounding lile a shouting match between a bunch of Rangers and Celtic fans who've met in the bar on the ferry from Larne on their way to Glasgow for an Old Firm match. But honest, open debates about identity and NI are necessary and possible, if people show a bit of respect. If we can't talk about it, then there's an issue. Stepping in to "defuse" every dicussion with "sure, as long as we all just get along" stops anyone learning anything.

The people who object most to debate about identity in NI are people from NI who like to pretend that there is no issue.

The IRFU and other Unions involved are avoiding getting into the same situtation that has happened between the IFA & FAI - and who can blame them.

Mystiroakey meet my good friend Sin E. Have a nice day ....

"Considering NI based players represent Ireland at every level of rugby I don't really see that there is any evidence that they wish to represent anyone else, and if they did then they are quite entitled to move overseas if they don't wish to adhere to the IRFUs ruling."

ermm that is not the answer.. Sorry mate that is plain wrong on every level..They shouldnt have to move country because one organisation goes against the 'british/irish' agreement. This goes way deeper than sport mate. I agree though that there should be no reason why any player would want to..But let the individual's make that consious decision

Sin e you your not exactly well thought of on this forum are you pal?

I absolutely agree that individual players should be allowed to make the decision and I can't see the IRFU taking the same despicable and deplorable attitude of the IFA (Northern Ireland football body) in trying to take legal proceedings to stop players making their own decision.

Sin é wrote:
The people who object most to debate about identity in NI are people from NI who like to pretend that there is no issue.

The IRFU and other Unions involved are avoiding getting into the same situtation that has happened between the IFA & FAI - and who can blame them.

There is no issue. Its nothing to do with identity its to do with individual sports and how they are administered. Every single athlete and player has a choice.

Every single player who picks up a rugby ball in Ireland knows that they are eligible ro represent one National side only, Ireland. Cricket is the same. End of story.

It's nothing to do with the constitutional question of NI or politics.

Individual sports are a bit different, ultimately you are competing for yourself and athletes need to take whatever opportunity is presented to them.

Sonia O'Sullivan for example competed for Australia in the latter stages of her career.

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e- your an absoloute joke, You know zip all about golf(you have proved that time after time)- dont even try and tar me with your xenophobic brush- Why the heck do i care what management firm rory signs upto. Gonna be honest you just wanted some ireland v england/britain debate from the start- As i have said before i am not gonna participoate. There are loads of forums out there were you can view your xenophobic mindset- Run along.

Well you know zip all about Ireland and how Irish people are viewed in the US. In fairness I wouldn't expect you to.

"Every single player who picks up a rugby ball in Ireland knows that they are eligible ro represent one National side only, Ireland. Cricket is the same. End of story."

nope thats not the same mate- any cricketer can play for england and 'wales' if he wants to..

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e- your an absoloute joke, You know zip all about golf(you have proved that time after time)- dont even try and tar me with your xenophobic brush- Why the heck do i care what management firm rory signs upto. Gonna be honest you just wanted some ireland v england/britain debate from the start- As i have said before i am not gonna participoate. There are loads of forums out there were you can view your xenophobic mindset- Run along.

Well you know zip all about Ireland and how Irish people are viewed in the US. In fairness I wouldn't expect you to.

The reality is I do full well know. Your problem is that you base some sad notion of self worth based on what another country thinks of you.

Yeah, there have been a good few Irish cricketers to be fair.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I absolutely agree that individual players should be allowed to make the decision and I can't see the IRFU taking the same despicable and deplorable attitude of the IFA (Northern Ireland football body) in trying to take legal proceedings to stop players making their own decision.

Surely allowing players to declare for GB would be equivilent to the IFA allowing players to declare for ROI? As with the IFA, the IRFU are developing the players and can' possibly support them declaring for rival teams.

In this instance the IRFU have the capacity to do something about it, whereas the Soccer situation is a total mess.

I am 100% in support of the IRFU nipping this in the bud and making a clear cut decison for the good of Irish rugby and in my opinion the players too. The players don't need idiot journalists asking them which team they will play for the way Rory and GMac have.

mystiroakey wrote:"Every single player who picks up a rugby ball in Ireland knows that they are eligible ro represent one National side only, Ireland. Cricket is the same. End of story."

nope thats not the same mate- any cricketer can play for england and 'wales' if he wants to..

Yes sorry you are right, I meant in that cricket is an all ireland governed sport. Ignore.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The people who object most to debate about identity in NI are people from NI who like to pretend that there is no issue.

The IRFU and other Unions involved are avoiding getting into the same situtation that has happened between the IFA & FAI - and who can blame them.

There is no issue. Its nothing to do with identity its to do with individual sports and how they are administered. Every single athlete and player has a choice.

Every single player who picks up a rugby ball in Ireland knows that they are eligible ro represent one National side only, Ireland. Cricket is the same. End of story.

It's nothing to do with the constitutional question of NI or politics.

Individual sports are a bit different, ultimately you are competing for yourself and athletes need to take whatever opportunity is presented to them.

Sonia O'Sullivan for example competed for Australia in the latter stages of her career.

Its to do with identity Rodders - within NI,some identify more as 'Irish' or some identify more as 'British'. Outside of NI, everyone just sees you as Paddies!

Identity isn't ambigious down here - no one had a problem with Joe Joyce playing cricket for England and Sonia only represented Australia so that she could go to the Commonwealth Games where Ireland would not have been competing.

I think if a player from Northern Ireland wants to declare for GB then they should have that choice. I'm not hypocritical to the point were I'm going to say footballers in the North should be allowed to declare for the Republic, or Northern athletes should be able to represent Ireland in the Olympics, butNorthern rugby players can only represent Ireland and not the UK or GB.

In saying that I don't think any of the Ulster players would declare for GB, and some including Andrew Trimble have already stated that they would play for Ireland if it came to something like the Olympics.

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e you your not exactly well thought of on this forum are you pal?

“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.” Oscar Wilde

I don't disagree with that sin but I don't know what your point is?

My view is that in individual sports athletes are entitled to represent whoever they are qualified to and their decision should be respected - whether its GMAC, Lennox Lewis or Sonia O'Sullivan.

In team sports the governing body should make the call.

Let's be honest, given the parental nationality rules etc it's likely that many NI players would qualify for the English rugby team anyway. The rules lend themselves to the following, and I think tent are utterly utterly right to- if you feel affiliated with a place, if you would call youself British or Irish, then that's where you should be allowed to and choose to play. If you think of yourself as both British and Irish, as many of my friends think of themselves as British and Indian because of their origins and many Americans think of themselves as American and Italian or Irish (but rarely English. I suppose that's linked to the whole Empire thingy or the fact that aspects of American and Britih culture are very similar. Bit sad though), then you should be able to choose either. The ability to make a choice is never a bad thing and if we attempt to take it from people because it is controversial, stressful or too difficult we are on a slippery slope that leads nowhere good. Autonomy, as long as it doesn't impinge on other humans, is a basic right.

mystiroakey wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e- your an absoloute joke, You know zip all about golf(you have proved that time after time)- dont even try and tar me with your xenophobic brush- Why the heck do i care what management firm rory signs upto. Gonna be honest you just wanted some ireland v england/britain debate from the start- As i have said before i am not gonna participoate. There are loads of forums out there were you can view your xenophobic mindset- Run along.

Well you know zip all about Ireland and how Irish people are viewed in the US. In fairness I wouldn't expect you to.

The reality is I do full well know. Your problem is that you base some sad notion of self worth based on what another country thinks of you.

You didn't even know the name of the country you were talking about (in fact you authoritively claimed that it was called the Republic of Ireland).

As a small country we do what we can to get ahead and if that is trying to be liked in the US, we'll do it.

Artful_Dodger wrote:
In saying that I don't think any of the Ulster players would declare for GB, and some including Andrew Trimble have already stated that they would play for Ireland if it came to something like the Olympics.

And thats the bottom line.

I also support any players right to chose but I also support a governing body to do what they need to do for the good of the sport in that country.

The IRFU cannot support Irish based players declaring for GB any more than the IFA can support players defecting to ROI. They simply wouldn't be doing their job if they did.

Thankfully in Rugbys case I don't believe there is an issue as your example above shows.

The US is in nearly as much trouble as Europe and the UK. If you want to suck up to a country, I'd try and find solidarity with China or Japan

I was proving a point. Ireland is split- My point was allways calling teams ireland is for political correctness not reality

Sin e fails to relaise that it was the uk that helped Ireland of there economic strife(by offering billions of pounds of loans at cheaper interest rates than there credit ratiug suggests)! He also fails to realise that we in britain suck up to the USA as much as the irish do!!

rodders wrote:I don't disagree with that sin but I don't know what your point is?

My view is that in individual sports athletes are entitled to represent whoever they are qualified to and their decision should be respected - whether its GMAC, Lennox Lewis or Sonia O'Sullivan.

In team sports the governing body should make the call.

My point is that NI has just come through a 30 year war over identity (one lot telling them they are Irish and the other lot telling them they are British). There is no ambiguity about Sonia's identity, there is about GMac & Rory (who both claim to be Northern Irish). The fact that they are asked these questions says it all. I don't believe anyone asked Sonia if she was Irish or Australian or Joe Joyce if he was English or Irish.

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e you your not exactly well thought of on this forum are you pal?

“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.” Oscar Wilde

Ah now mystiroakey Sin is an acquired taste.. you'll learn to love him...

...I suspect not today though.... ....

Sin e- Us golf fans dont care who they play for or who they would pick. as i have said so many times.Only people with political issues will ask those questions,

mystiroakey wrote:I was proving a point. Ireland is split- My point was allways calling teams ireland is for political correctness not reality

Ireland is the name of the country I live in. You got that fact wrong. Nothing to do with political correctness.

yep and its called that over the republic to make you feel better. couldnt we just call northern ireland - ireland as well- jeas that would be confusing wouldnt it!