Team GB

First topic message reminder :

Having watch Team GB bundle their way to a draw last night in the Olympic football a thought struck me, wouldn’t it be great to have a Team GB in the rugby union world, every four years we could form a team and take on the worlds bests SH teams in a test match series.

What do you guys think?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't disagree with that sin but I don't know what your point is?

My view is that in individual sports athletes are entitled to represent whoever they are qualified to and their decision should be respected - whether its GMAC, Lennox Lewis or Sonia O'Sullivan.

In team sports the governing body should make the call.

My point is that NI has just come through a 30 year war over identity (one lot telling them they are Irish and the other lot telling them they are British). There is no ambiguity about Sonia's identity, there is about GMac & Rory (who both claim to be Northern Irish). The fact that they are asked these questions says it all. I don't believe anyone asked Sonia if she was Irish or Australian or Joe Joyce if he was English or Irish.

OK I get you.

The only response that I can give here is that neither GMAC or Rory are responsible for the consitutional position of NI. They are sportsmen and public figures and I'm sure they have little desire to involve themselves with politics. Unfortunately whatever descisons they make will be politicised by some people, as you are doing here.

Sonia O'Sullivan declared for Australia for sporting reasons and I have no doubt that whoever Rory and GMac declare for it will also be for sporting reasons, not political ones. Neither will have a wish to offend or alienate any supporters but unfortunately whatever they do that will happen. That is the fault of the enviroment and not the athlete, and I fully support them whatever team they represent. For the record I hope they opt for Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e- Us golf fans dont care who they play for or who they would pick. as i have said so many times.Only people with political issues will ask those questions,

You might be happier sticking with your golfing buddies then ?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Sin e you your not exactly well thought of on this forum are you pal?

“The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.” Oscar Wilde

Ah now mystiroakey Sin is an acquired taste.. you'll learn to love him...

...I suspect not today though.... ....

I think your wrong mate- I have tried with this guy, yet he keeps trying to bring some hate into the debate. He knows about sport only for the political elements. He only knows and cares about golf through these green glasses..These type of 'fans' are the reason why golf will be an issue- not us true fans who wont care and support who we want regardless

Actually, quick research shows that regarding Ireland Vs republic of Ireland, Sin is quite correct, the UN official name is Ireland.

ChequeredJersey wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

sin e- some information on your country. please read

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't disagree with that sin but I don't know what your point is?

My view is that in individual sports athletes are entitled to represent whoever they are qualified to and their decision should be respected - whether its GMAC, Lennox Lewis or Sonia O'Sullivan.

In team sports the governing body should make the call.

My point is that NI has just come through a 30 year war over identity (one lot telling them they are Irish and the other lot telling them they are British). There is no ambiguity about Sonia's identity, there is about GMac & Rory (who both claim to be Northern Irish). The fact that they are asked these questions says it all. I don't believe anyone asked Sonia if she was Irish or Australian or Joe Joyce if he was English or Irish.

OK I get you.

The only response that I can give here is that neither GMAC or Rory are responsible for the consitutional position of NI. They are sportsmen and public figures and I'm sure they have little desire to involve themselves with politics. Unfortunately whatever descisons they make will be politicised by some people, as you are doing here.

Sonia O'Sullivan declared for Australia for sporting reasons and I have no doubt that whoever Rory and GMac declare for it will also be for sporting reasons, not political ones. Neither will have a wish to offend or alienate any supporters but unfortunately whatever they do that will happen. That is the fault of the enviroment and not the athlete, and I fully support them whatever team they represent. For the record I hope they opt for Ireland.

I think there would have been a bit of uproar if Sonia wanted to represent Australia in the Olympics She was only interested in representing Australia in an event she couldn't represent Ireland in.

mystiroakey wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

sin e- some information on your country. please read

wiki

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, quick research shows that regarding Ireland Vs republic of Ireland, Sin is quite correct, the UN official name is Ireland.

yeah he is correct- but its for politacal correctness reasons only- ireland geographically is split- its very confusing and we have to make the distinction sometimes. Otherwise things get way to confusing. What he is doing is trying to pick at irrelevant points to try and win an irrelevant argument and miss the important parts of the debate

mystiroakey wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, quick research shows that regarding Ireland Vs republic of Ireland, Sin is quite correct, the UN official name is Ireland.

yeah he is correct- but its for politacal correctness reasons only- ireland geographically is split- its very confusing and we have to make the distinction sometimes. Otherwise things get way to confusing. What he is doing is trying to pick at irrelevant points to try and win an irrelevant argument and miss the important parts of the debate

Sorry if you find it confusing. Lets change the name of the country so your not - or why not change the name of Northern Ireland to something else if you find it so confusing, thats within your power. Why don't you lobby Westminster to do it.

Here is a pic of our 'politically correct' passport. Note it says Éire Ireland.

http://www.google.ie/search?q=irish+passport&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=BBl&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnsu&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=gfoUUKrcGMbRhAfz1YCYBg&ved=0CE4Q_AUoAQ&biw=1054&bih=673

Just as a general thing, Wikipedia is a more reliable source than pretty much every public newspaper and most other sites and books because it is actually continuously monitored by experts. It's no pubmed journal but it's unreliability is grossly misrepresented. In this case it was wrong, which doesn't help this point, but saying "that's Wiki :. It's wrong" is not a very valid argument.

Sin é wrote:
I think there would have been a bit of uproar if Sonia wanted to represent Australia in the Olympics She was only interested in representing Australia in an event she couldn't represent Ireland in.

Well I think you are applying double standards here. You want to bring politics into a descision which is essentially a sporting one.

Anyways I'm done on this one.

I'll support NI (and Irish) athletes whoever they declare for, however in a team sport like rugby I'd be very disappointed to see an Irish player represent anyone other than Ireland and fully support governing bodies like the IRFU protecting their investment and securing their resources.

sin e- dude

ChequeredJersey wrote:Just as a general thing, Wikipedia is a more reliable source than pretty much every public newspaper and most other sites and books because it is actually continuously monitored by experts. It's no pubmed journal but it's unreliability is grossly misrepresented. In this case it was wrong, which doesn't help this point, but saying "that's Wiki :. It's wrong" is not a very valid argument.

true in actual fact its one of the best sources out there

mystiroakey wrote:sin e- dude

]


what a way to kill a debate- i must remember that

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think there would have been a bit of uproar if Sonia wanted to represent Australia in the Olympics She was only interested in representing Australia in an event she couldn't represent Ireland in.

Well I think you are applying double standards here. You want to bring politics into a descision which is essentially a sporting one.

Anyways I'm done on this one.

I'll support NI (and Irish) athletes whoever they declare for, however in a team sport like rugby I'd be very disappointed to see an Irish player represent anyone other than Ireland and fully support governing bodies like the IRFU protecting their investment and securing their resources.

I wouldn't call it double standards - I'd say we should be mindful of the difficulties it could pose for the individuals within NI because of the recent conflict. I don't think for instance that Sonia or Joe Joyce got any death threats when they decided they were going to represent another country, unlike some of the soccer players who have declared for the republic (and just to be even handed, they probably would have got death threats from their own community if they had declared for NI when they had the chance to play for Ireland (ROI )

ChequeredJersey wrote:Just as a general thing, Wikipedia is a more reliable source than pretty much every public newspaper and most other sites and books because it is actually continuously monitored by experts. It's no pubmed journal but it's unreliability is grossly misrepresented. In this case it was wrong, which doesn't help this point, but saying "that's Wiki :. It's wrong" is not a very valid argument.

I agree, its generally ok, though I'm surprised that they have not at least explained the difference. Its quite obvious to Irish people because they can translate the Irish language version which Fifa didn't bother to change. (Incidentally, its 'Ireland' on the soccer badge as well, not republic of).

The soccer situation is a mess, and one I don't want to discuss.

Lets not pretend that we have the same problem in other sports though because thankfully we don't.

Wayne McCullough was from the Shankill and carried the Irish flag in Barcelona in 1992. Thats 20 years ago, before the current peace process.

This is all old news .

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think there would have been a bit of uproar if Sonia wanted to represent Australia in the Olympics She was only interested in representing Australia in an event she couldn't represent Ireland in.

Well I think you are applying double standards here. You want to bring politics into a descision which is essentially a sporting one.

Anyways I'm done on this one.

I'll support NI (and Irish) athletes whoever they declare for, however in a team sport like rugby I'd be very disappointed to see an Irish player represent anyone other than Ireland and fully support governing bodies like the IRFU protecting their investment and securing their resources.

I wouldn't call it double standards - I'd say we should be mindful of the difficulties it could pose for the individuals within NI because of the recent conflict. I don't think for instance that Sonia or Joe Joyce got any death threats when they decided they were going to represent another country, unlike some of the soccer players who have declared for the republic (and just to be even handed, they probably would have got death threats from their own community if they had declared for NI when they had the chance to play for Ireland (ROI )

I'm in pedant mode this morning. It's ED Joyce.

Thanks KD, its still early in the morning here and I know a Joe Joyce!

rodders wrote:The soccer situation is a mess, and one I don't want to discuss.

Lets not pretend that we have the same problem in other sports though because thankfully we don't.

Wayne McCullough was from the Shankill and carried the Irish flag in Barcelona in 1992. Thats 20 years ago, before the current peace process.

This is all old news .

The whole boxing thing is incredible as to how they got them all together. I heard someone from the boxers talking about the lads from the Shankill learning the words of the soldiers song (in Irish) and how proud they are when they get to lead out with the Irish flag. It could have been the same with soccer if they hadn't split.

Wrote a long rejoinder to Rodders, which my iPhone swallowed. Ffs.

The football analogy is false. There is no standing GB rugby union team for players to declare for rather than Ireland. We are talking about a GB 7s team for the Olympics, in which an equivalent Irish team may not be competing.

And as for L4L's point about it being "divisive", if that's how fragile team spirit is in Ireland, we're doomed. Did Leinster find it insurmountable for team spirit that Nathan Hines used to face the Irish lads in the 6N? No, there was mutual respect there.

There seems to be some assumption that for a team to have a good team spirit, they need to be homogenous. They don't. That's the most wonderful thing about the "Ireland" rugby team.

And as for this assumption that the poor loves need to be spared the stress of having to declare - please. Are these the same guys who compete in HEC finals and carry the weight if the expectations of both Ireland and NI to RWCs? They will make big choices in their lives, as do we all. And it wouldn't be stressful if we accepted that nothing trumps personal conscience.

The fact that Ireland can't afford to run a 7s team is an issue though. It should be noted though that it is highly unlikely that any Irish player would make the GB 7s team because we don't actually have a team on the circuit.

Don Alfonso wrote:

And as for L4L's point about it being "divisive", if that's how fragile team spirit is in Ireland, we're doomed. Did Leinster find it insurmountable for team spirit that Nathan Hines used to face the Irish lads in the 6N? No, there was mutual respect there.

Thats a completely different situation in that nationality or identity isn't that relevant generally to the club you play for. I wonder how Hines felt playing for Scotland against Australia (or how Tom Court feels playing for Ireland against Australia)?

Both seemed to be okay with it.

Again, though, it's not the same at all. Maybe it's closer to State of Origin?

I await your reply. I will be disappointed if it does not reference Paul McNaughton's quote about Ulster getting more money for NIQs, and Martyn Williams' quote about Paul O'Connell being a fantastic captain. It's only when you shoehorn those in that I can be sure you are taking a debate seriously.

That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Wow talk about making stuff up to make your own irrational hatred of certain Leinster players more acceptable.

What has that got to do with the current discussion anyway?

But the issue is the players themselves, not the fans. Do the Munster players have issues with them?

Besides which, as you and I well know, Leinster fans can be so precious...

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Why should we hate those players?

Don Alfonso wrote:But the issue is the players themselves, not the fans. Do the Munster players have issues with them?

Besides which, as you and I well know, Leinster fans can be so precious...

Oi watch it

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Wow talk about making stuff up to make your own irrational hatred of certain Leinster players more acceptable.

What has that got to do with the current discussion anyway?

One of many similar quotes to be found on the interwebbie

"And presumably they're deaf (and Internet rugby forum blind) when they miss the vitriol and scorn poured by Leinster fans onto Ian Dowling for not waiting 100 years for Leinster to discover him. And when by chance you hear this stuff at eg Welford Road and Twickenham and you happen to come from Kilkenny, you might think: "Nah. I'm not one of this tribe."

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Wow talk about making stuff up to make your own irrational hatred of certain Leinster players more acceptable.

What has that got to do with the current discussion anyway?

One of many similar quotes to be found on the interwebbie

"And presumably they're deaf (and Internet rugby forum blind) when they miss the vitriol and scorn poured by Leinster fans onto Ian Dowling for not waiting 100 years for Leinster to discover him. And when by chance you hear this stuff at eg Welford Road and Twickenham and you happen to come from Kilkenny, you might think: "Nah. I'm not one of this tribe."

Lol you're a hypocrite.

You criticised someone for using wikipedia as a source but when it suits you an anonymous quote on the internet suddnely becomes gospel?I can find 100 quotes in the internet which proclaim the September 11th terrorist attacks were masterminded by George Bush does that make them true?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Why should we hate those players?

Because Leinster fans see them as traitors ? (I don't think they should, just explaining the rationale as to why Leinster fans might not like either Ronan or Dowling, though they seem to be fine with Jones & Keatley so far.

Well im a leinster fan (obvious i know) and i dont hate those players at all.

I don't think all that many rugby fans 'hate' in the genuine sense of the word, at least I hope thats still the case. I'm often left uncomfortable reading your views on sport Sin. There's often a nasty streak that runs through them. Not much mutual respect and camaraderie.

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Why should we hate those players?

Because Leinster fans see them as traitors ? (I don't think they should, just explaining the rationale as to why Leinster fans might not like either Ronan or Dowling, though they seem to be fine with Jones & Keatley so far.

Which Leinster fans see them as traitors,in over 10 years of attending matches I've never heard any criticism of either player.In fact the only time I've ever heard either mentioned was when talking to some people from Drogheda who were quite proud of Niall Ronan.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Well im a leinster fan (obvious i know) and i dont hate those players at all.

Well, surely you must have noticed that they got singled out a lot by the Leinster fans for abuse when playing in the RDS. The Leinster players seemed to single Dowling out a bit for special 'attention'.

Notch wrote:I don't think all that many rugby fans 'hate' in the genuine sense of the word, at least I hope thats still the case. I'm often left uncomfortable reading your views on sport Sin. There's often a nasty streak that runs through them. Not much mutual respect and camaraderie.

I never used the word hate (I used the word 'detest' originally). In the post above I used 'not like' - all a long way from hate.

You are trying to put words in my mouth.

Is that your way of showing respect and camaraderie?

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I don't think all that many rugby fans 'hate' in the genuine sense of the word, at least I hope thats still the case. I'm often left uncomfortable reading your views on sport Sin. There's often a nasty streak that runs through them. Not much mutual respect and camaraderie.

I never used the word hate (I used the word 'detest' originally). In the post above I used 'not like' - all a long way from hate.

You are trying to put words in my mouth.

Is that your way of showing respect and camaraderie?

Yet you responded to Leinsterfan4lifes question about why should we hate those players without clarifying the difference,now that you are being shown up you're trying to change the argument to one of dictionary definitions.

Mutual respect and camaraderie Sin. That would require the engagement of both parties. I just don't understand the negativity and confrontation you sometimes bring to the table. It makes me uncomfortable.

I was at the leinster vs munster game in the aviva last season and never heard any abuse given to niall ronan. It was played in a very pleasant atmosphere.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I don't think all that many rugby fans 'hate' in the genuine sense of the word, at least I hope thats still the case. I'm often left uncomfortable reading your views on sport Sin. There's often a nasty streak that runs through them. Not much mutual respect and camaraderie.

I never used the word hate (I used the word 'detest' originally). In the post above I used 'not like' - all a long way from hate.

You are trying to put words in my mouth.

Is that your way of showing respect and camaraderie?

Yet you responded to Leinsterfan4lifes question about why should we hate those players without clarifying the difference,now that you are being shown up you're trying to change the argument to one of dictionary definitions.

Obviously I was too subtle for you all in my response: Read my post again.:

Because Leinster fans see them as traitors ? (I don't think they should, just explaining the rationale as to why Leinster fans might not like either Ronan or Dowling, though they seem to be fine with Jones & Keatley so far.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I don't think all that many rugby fans 'hate' in the genuine sense of the word, at least I hope thats still the case. I'm often left uncomfortable reading your views on sport Sin. There's often a nasty streak that runs through them. Not much mutual respect and camaraderie.

I never used the word hate (I used the word 'detest' originally). In the post above I used 'not like' - all a long way from hate.

You are trying to put words in my mouth.

Is that your way of showing respect and camaraderie?

Yet you responded to Leinsterfan4lifes question about why should we hate those players without clarifying the difference,now that you are being shown up you're trying to change the argument to one of dictionary definitions.

Obviously I was too subtle for you all in my response: Read my post again.:

Because Leinster fans see them as traitors ? (I don't think they should, just explaining the rationale as to why Leinster fans might not like either Ronan or Dowling, though they seem to be fine with Jones & Keatley so far.

Funny that you didn't make a big deal about it,it's not like you.You still haven't provided any proof that Leinster fans don't like Ronan or Dowling.

Notch wrote:Mutual respect and camaraderie Sin. That would require the engagement of both parties. I just don't understand the negativity and confrontation you sometimes bring to the table. It makes me uncomfortable.

You inferred that I used the word 'hate'. You don't deserve my respect for doing that.

I apologise if I gave that impression. Best of luck.

Notch wrote:I apologise if I gave that impression. Best of luck.

Apology accepted.

More importantly, how good an album is "An Awesome Wave" by Alt-J? Genuinely superb.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:That was meant in a light-hearted way. A lesser man would have used smilies.

Must remember those two points for future reference as they obviously get under a few people's skins

(I'm obviously a lesser man)!

As an aside in a situation a bit closer to home, Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and I don't think Ian Dowling was very popular with either the Leinster players or their fans (and he had never played for Leinster).

Why should we hate those players?

Because Leinster fans see them as traitors ? (I don't think they should, just explaining the rationale as to why Leinster fans might not like either Ronan or Dowling, though they seem to be fine with Jones & Keatley so far.

Which Leinster fans see them as traitors,in over 10 years of attending matches I've never heard any criticism of either player.In fact the only time I've ever heard either mentioned was when talking to some people from Drogheda who were quite proud of Niall Ronan.

I'm from Drogheda, and we are quite proud Niall Ronan. I've never met a Leinster fan that hates him or Dowling. I can't let you get away with claiming that Sin, when it's not true.

Don Alfonso wrote:Wrote a long rejoinder to Rodders, which my iPhone swallowed. Ffs.

Don I respect your view, I don't really want to debate this one further, I've stated my opinon so I'll leave it here. I do believe that this is much ado about nothing though .