Heres one to create some debate?

Just to create some Friday fun and arguments!

List the Pro 12 teams in order from oldest to newest.

This should generate some debate.

Leinster, Munster, Ulster 1879
Connacht 1885
Benetton Treviso 1932
Edinburgh Rugby 1970
Zebre 1973
Glasgow Warriors 2000
NGD, Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues 2003

*from the Pro 12 website,

Edinburgh, Glasgow time to argue your cases for being older.

even with the Italians, the Welsh regions are still the youngest teams in existance in the league (you ain't got no history)

I'm sure the Scarlets are older than that. Their boss was talking about their proud history over decades. Same with the Blues (apparently they were in the final of the first EC)

Kingshu wrote:Leinster, Munster, Ulster 1879
Connacht 1885
Benetton Treviso 1932
Edinburgh Rugby 1970
Zebre 1973
Glasgow Warriors 2000
NGD, Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues 2003

*from the Pro 12 website,

Edinburgh, Glasgow time to argue your cases for being older.

even with the Italians, the Welsh regions are still the youngest teams in existance in the league (you ain't got no history)

OK, let's keep it simple. Glasgow and Edinburgh compete for the 1872 Cup - the clue as to their origin is in the name of the cup!

There is also the lump of silverware known as the 1872 Cup, which celebrates the first meeting of Scotland’s two great rugby cities, 139 years ago.

from the Torygraph in Dec-11

Tough to define oldest. When they were founded in their current form.

This according to wikipedia.


Glasgow - 1872
Leinster - 1879
Ulster - 1879
Munster - 1879
Connacht - 1885
Treviso - 1932
Edinburgh - 1996
Scarlets - 2003
Dragons - 2003
Ospreys - 2003
Cardiff Blues - 2003
Zebre - 2012

and on ERC site has Edinburgh 1970, but Glasgow as
Founded: 1872

I can understand an argument for 1872, or 2000 but I don't understand why Edinburgh are on both sites founded in 1970? and 1996 thrown into the mix now as well good stuff.

Personally I kinda think Glasgow and Edinburgh were both founded in 2000 for the Celtic League, but have roots back to older teams. Kinda like the Scarlets founded 2000 but roots go to an older team.

Zebre are they the same team as 1973??

Kingshu wrote:and on ERC site has Edinburgh 1970, but Glasgow as
Founded: 1872

I can understand an argument for 1872, or 2000 but I don't understand why Edinburgh are on both sites founded in 1970? and 1996 thrown into the mix now as well good stuff.

Personally I kinda think Glasgow and Edinburgh were both founded in 2000 for the Celtic League, but have roots back to older teams. Kinda like the Scarlets founded 2000 but roots go to an older team.

Zebre are they the same team as 1973??

I think the Zebre team of the 70's was an invitational side, so the name might be the same but it's a different team altogether.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm sure the Scarlets are older than that. Their boss was talking about their proud history over decades. Same with the Blues (apparently they were in the final of the first EC)

I think the Scarlets are actually something like 2007 or 2008 (around there) as they were the Llanelli Scarlets from 2003 til then.

Also the clubs of Llanelli, Cardiff, Newport still exist, and are the older entities you are thinging of.

Kingshu according to wiki there used to be a Edinburgh district side which indeed played a game vs Glasgow in 1872.

The Edinburgh district team was reformed in 1996 to become the Edinburgh rugby we know today. Basically from 1872 to 1996 there's no information of what the district side was doing.

It gets more confusing as this Edinburgh fused with Border Reivers to make Edinburgh reivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Rugby


Zebre are strictly a new club IMO.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm sure the Scarlets are older than that. Their boss was talking about their proud history over decades. Same with the Blues (apparently they were in the final of the first EC)

Smell a rat there. If you're an Ospreys fan of sorts, you'd know all Welsh regional sides were 2003.

Whats your opinion Mick can Zebre claim to be founded in 1973?
When do Edinburgh get to claim to be founded 1872, 1970, 1996, 2000
why do the same dates not apply to Glasgow?
and if Zebre, Glasgow and Edinburgh can claim older founding dates, can Scarlets and Cardiff blues, after all they kept the records and European points of the old clubs when formed,

Risca Rev wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm sure the Scarlets are older than that. Their boss was talking about their proud history over decades. Same with the Blues (apparently they were in the final of the first EC)

Smell a rat there. If you're an Ospreys fan of sorts, you'd know all Welsh regional sides were 2003.

On a more serious note when is a club created? What's the difference between founding and rebranding?

Zebre took their name from an invitation side that used to exist. The team was completely separate. The Scarlets were created from Llanelli but played at the same ground, owned by the same people, same kit, etc? Is that any different to the creation of any professional club in 1995? If it was simply the reforming of team from an old one then it could easily be argued that no team is older than 1995, but many, if not all, have roots deeper than this.

This
http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/news/4832.php
certainly suggests they view Scarlets to be a continuation of LLanelli rather than a new team.


PS A slightly strange question but since LL is a single letter should it be LLanelli or Llanelli?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm sure the Scarlets are older than that. Their boss was talking about their proud history over decades. Same with the Blues (apparently they were in the final of the first EC)

Smell a rat there. If you're an Ospreys fan of sorts, you'd know all Welsh regional sides were 2003.

On a more serious note when is a club created? What's the difference between founding and rebranding?

Zebre took their name from an invitation side that used to exist. The team was completely separate. The Scarlets were created from Llanelli but played at the same ground, owned by the same people, same kit, etc? Is that any different to the creation of any professional club in 1995? If it was simply the reforming of team from an old one then it could easily be argued that no team is older than 1995, but many, if not all, have roots deeper than this.

This
http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/news/4832.php
certainly suggests they view Scarlets to be a continuation of LLanelli rather than a new team.


PS A slightly strange question but since LL is a single letter should it be LLanelli or Llanelli?

Llanelli I believe

Mickado wrote:

Kingshu wrote:and on ERC site has Edinburgh 1970, but Glasgow as
Founded: 1872

I can understand an argument for 1872, or 2000 but I don't understand why Edinburgh are on both sites founded in 1970? and 1996 thrown into the mix now as well good stuff.

Personally I kinda think Glasgow and Edinburgh were both founded in 2000 for the Celtic League, but have roots back to older teams. Kinda like the Scarlets founded 2000 but roots go to an older team.

Zebre are they the same team as 1973??

I think the Zebre team of the 70's was an invitational side, so the name might be the same but it's a different team altogether.

Also to be fair Mick the Provinces were invitational sides as well up untill 1995, (inviting the best players in the Province to play the other provinces) Could be Provinces be saaid to be formed in 1995?

Guys where is Zebre from...who are they?

In terms of the players AGE who has the youngest oldest team/squad on average?

Thunor - The Scarlets view Llanelli RFC as a major contibuter into their past and future, however they also acknowledge that they are not a re-branded Llanelli RFC anymore, hence changing their name (around 07-09 somewhere, when old 606 was running) from Llanelli Scarlets to Scarlets. It all comes down to how people look at things, different view points and all that.

P.S. I think technically it would be LLanelli, however I would never do that (the same as it would be Rhys not RHys even though RH is a letter)

Anglicised isnt Llanelli spelt Llanelli, and in pure Welsh it would be LLanelli. Would make sense as LL is a letter in Welsh.

I'd also like to note. Welsh is hard.

Kingshu wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Kingshu wrote:and on ERC site has Edinburgh 1970, but Glasgow as
Founded: 1872

I can understand an argument for 1872, or 2000 but I don't understand why Edinburgh are on both sites founded in 1970? and 1996 thrown into the mix now as well good stuff.

Personally I kinda think Glasgow and Edinburgh were both founded in 2000 for the Celtic League, but have roots back to older teams. Kinda like the Scarlets founded 2000 but roots go to an older team.

Zebre are they the same team as 1973??

I think the Zebre team of the 70's was an invitational side, so the name might be the same but it's a different team altogether.

Also to be fair Mick the Provinces were invitational sides as well up untill 1995, (inviting the best players in the Province to play the other provinces) Could be Provinces be saaid to be formed in 1995?

That's a fiar point, but I think the provinces are a slightly different case to Zebre. The interpro's existed for years and were at least on an annual basis, Zebre wasn't region specific and as far as i know didn't play games regularly. In one way, none of these teams actually existed before the HC or the league in the guise we know them in today.

Rugby has had some pretty amazing growth in this country in particular if you think about it. I mean, the biggest show in town is still the GAA but to for the provinces to go from an invitational side to the biggest professional teams in the country in 20 years is fairly good going.

Coleman wrote:Anglicised isnt Llanelli spelt Llanelli, and in pure Welsh it would be LLanelli. Would make sense as LL is a letter in Welsh.

I'd also like to note. Welsh is hard.

Especially when your trying to explain mutations etc.

We had a goldfish called Triglad because it started off one colour and ended up another.

Wasps Football Club exists as an amateur club in the London leagues. Is this the clubs that was formed in 1867? Is London Wasps the same club or was that formed in 1995?

Sale Football Club was formed in 1861. It also still exists as an amateur club. The professional Sale team are an offshoot from this amateur team. Where they 'created' in 1995 or 1861?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Coleman wrote:Anglicised isnt Llanelli spelt Llanelli, and in pure Welsh it would be LLanelli. Would make sense as LL is a letter in Welsh.

I'd also like to note. Welsh is hard.

Especially when your trying to explain mutations etc.

In that case is it not:

LLaneLLi

Kingshu wrote:Whats your opinion Mick can Zebre claim to be founded in 1973?
When do Edinburgh get to claim to be founded 1872, 1970, 1996, 2000
why do the same dates not apply to Glasgow?
and if Zebre, Glasgow and Edinburgh can claim older founding dates, can Scarlets and Cardiff blues, after all they kept the records and European points of the old clubs when formed,

The four Scottish districts have been around for yonks - Glasgow, Edinburgh, North and Midlands, and South (i.e. played South Africa in 1906 at Mansfield Park) - they drew on players from clubs in those areas or players that were born in those areas, in that sense they were representative teams. Each became a professional outfit at the outset of professionalim - Glasgow, Edinburgh, Caledonia Reds, and Border Reivers.

red_stag wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Coleman wrote:Anglicised isnt Llanelli spelt Llanelli, and in pure Welsh it would be LLanelli. Would make sense as LL is a letter in Welsh.

I'd also like to note. Welsh is hard.

Especially when your trying to explain mutations etc.

In that case is it not:

LLaneLLi

??

Why would you capitalize the second 'll'?

Geez, some of your rugby clubs are nearly as old as New Zealand.