Article on Welsh rugby losing players abroad

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May 25th, 2012 by MarkL


Welsh rugby fans departing for foreign lands in the professional era of rugby is nothing new. The likes of Colin Charvis (Tarbes), Chris Wyatt (Munster), Rob Howely (Wasps) and Stephen Jones (Clermont), to name a few, all departed our borders in search of a handsome wage when at the back end of their playing careers.

Similarly, players who realised that future opportunities of playing for the national side were becoming increasingly remote also upped sticks – Nicky Robinson (Wasps), his brother Jamie (Agen), Gareth Delve (Melbourne) and Alix Popham (Brive) being some of the higher profile examples.

So, why the alarm at the recent exodus? Perhaps it’s just the sheer number of current internationals in close proximity who are leaving, or have not long left, the regions. Lee Byrne, Mike Phillips and James Hook all departed last season, of course, and come September, Luke Charteris, Gethin Jenkins, Richie Rees, Huw Bennett, Paul James and Aled Brew will be plying their trade on foreign fields.

But a closer look suggests things maybe aren’t so bad as they first appear. All of these players listed are nearer 30 years of age than they are 20, and with the exception of Charteris, Phillips and Jenkins, were not first choice for Wales in 2012.

A positive spin, then, is that these departures offer a great opportunity for Wales’ young players to develop, with the big names no longer limiting their game time. Consider the case of Rhys Webb, the young scrum half who earned a call up to the Wales squad following impressively consistent displays for his region this season, culminating in his first cap as a replacement in the win over Italy in the Six Nations. In an interview earlier this month, Webb said,

“It’s been a tough couple of years at the Ospreys in my position, with the likes of Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall there… They gave me a chance over Mike last season… and I’ve just kept going from there.”

There is a good chance that Webb may have broken through this season anyway, but there can be little doubt that big name departures have given him more chances to shine and to take on greater responsibility, and the player has blossomed as a consequence.

Whilst depth of talent has always been a problem in Wales in the professional era, there are good signs of another talented crop of youngsters on the horizon. In his first full season, Scarlets 21 year old full-back, Liam Williams, was named the region’s players’ player of the year, as well as the LV=Cup Breakthrough Player ahead of fellow-nominated Welshmen Matthew Morgan of the Ospreys and 21 year old Scarlets centre Adam Warren. Likewise, Harry Robinson has been pulling up trees at the Blues, drawing favourable comparisons with namesake and former England pro Jason Robinson by Welsh coach Warren Gatland.

Also, let’s remember that the young players who shone at the World Cup, such as Faletau, Warburton, Priestland and Lydiate, will still be pulling on Welsh regions’ jerseys come September. As will George North and Alex Cuthbert who, most of us will confess, we hadn’t even heard of 18 months ago. And who’s to say that another few young Welsh gems won’t be unearthed in the coming season too.

Suddenly, things don’t seem so bad. Heineken Cup anyone?

Thunor - even if all 8k of the season tickets were given away for free, the odds are the average attendances would still be above the previous season.

Go - I think the Ospreys may just need to lower their prices to get more folk in. The pull of Swansea FC for the floating fan will most likely die down this coming season, as it is not new any more.

I doubt that spidey, they will as big a pull as ever. Swansea is a football town.

But for the casual fan Swansea FC tickets are almost impossible to get, while the Ospreys could be an attraction for being cheaper, more available and still having a decent atmoshphere to watch top class sport (if their attendances improve to the 8/9k mark).

Also for all this talk of they've got 8k season tickets registered so that means (because of the BOGOF) that they've only sold 2/3k, some of the BOGOF deal relates to free children's tickets, and it's not guarenteed that every season ticket holder will take the extra season ticket (or if they do they'll give it to whoever is interested in going that week - wife, mate, work colleagues) rather than give it to someone who'll barely turn up.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'd say from those:

Ospreys are worse attended now than they were 3 years ago in terms of maximum and average. Who knows what will happen next year.

Dragons have been a bit up and down but their average is up and the maximum is down which suggests are larger core following.

Blues, a big dip when they moved, the odd big game boosting their average in the first season at the new ground. We'll will see what happens now they've moved back.

Scarlets, doing well after their blip. If they do manage to start breaking even next season then it be a boost. As I understand it they're relying on 'friendly' (is it three guys) putting money in, similar to Quins.

Fair summary Hound -
It's not that hard is it ?

It'll be good to see Blues crowds without the boycott that they've had for the last 2 seasons.

There's also a lot of positivity from the end of last season and during the close season with the Ospreys, so they should see an increase as well.

gowales wrote:I doubt that spidey, they will as big a pull as ever. Swansea is a football town.

I meant the sort of folk who want to go to a match to say they went to see THAT match. Those whose don't really care about the game, just saying I was there. I have a feeling now the Ospreys are champs (again) those 'I was there' lot may turn up for games like the Welsh Derbies, Leinster, Munster, and the HEC games.

I don't know mate that didn't really help in the 2010-11 season. We'll have to see

Yeah I guess only time will tell. I must say I am really disappointed that those who were saying about poor attendances, and things getting worse season upon season, have not commented since the figures went up.

HammerofThunor wrote:Thing is half of those tickets were free. The impulse and desire to turn up isn't the same if you haven't had to pay for the ticket. People will probably have got one of them rather than pay for a ticket the three times a year they go. I don't doubt they'll be used for the 'official' attendances but that doesn't mean more people will turn up. However, if some of those 3-games-a-year guys turn up 4 or 5 or more times then it'll be a bonus. If you get the bug and turn up for all of them (some probably will) then excellent.

Maesteg, yeah sorry about that. I'll change it.

Your point above raises exactly the issue. The local support can not afford to go. But if, for example, Dad can go, take a mate and their kids, then that's four fans more at the stadium than last year. Profit is little different on tickets sold, it may have an effect, but the secondary spin offs are up.

We are in a very low income, high unemployment part of Britain and the supporters do not have much disposable income.

These incentives are fantastic, a great incite into understanding the main reason attendences were previously low.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5b1c7198-5637-11e0-82aa-00144feab49a.html#axzz22s3i03Hs

Have a read.

We are also in a part of Wales that has a shocking public transport network - West Wales in particular, there is no railway between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth (all in the Scarlets region), I can't get back from Scarlets Friday night matches and I live in Cardiff, what hope has somone from Lampeter got?
Same with someone coming from Clydach, Ammanford or Maesteg for the Ospreys.

This combined with the awful employment level, the fact that Wales is one of the poorest regions in Europe (SW Valleys and West Wales were the same level as Albania and are sinking to that level again, thanks Tories) means that we're not exactly a high disposable income area

Smirnoff - the futher west you go the worse it gets, to the point of almost non-existance (2 buses a bloody day for some places).

I just hope that soon one or more of the regions will start to regularly go far in the HC or even win it. This is what helped Munster and Leinster grow very small attendance figures into the largest in the league. Success at the highest level. Imagine if Ulster, Cardiff Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys were able to attract the support that Munster and Leinster do.

I think Ulster, Cardiff and Ospreys could. Not sure about Scarlets. All that extra money could be invested back into the sides and we could have an incredibly high quality league. The Scots are only recently getting more investment too. But I can't see the interest in Scotland ever growing by that much. In Wales it really could.

I don't think the PRO12 is still anywhere near its full potential. But I also fear it could go the other way. There's still danger of Italian or Welsh teams going bust and collapsing. Connacht's future seems secure. Not sure about the Scottish sides.

But the big problem is attendance. In the case of Connacht, Edinburgh and Glasgow, and probably Zebre, there just isn't enough interest in rugby. There is in Wales. So the Welsh regions are the ones with the biggest potential to grow their attendances and take in all the cash that makes.

Although considering some of the English reaction to Irish teams winning the HC, maybe if a Welsh team won it they really would just leave the competition entirely and never come back, saying it's unfair.

FR these things take time.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Smirnoff - the futher west you go the worse it gets, to the point of almost non-existance (2 buses a bloody day for some places).

I know, I still can't believe how difficult it is to get to Oakwood if you haven't got a car the buses are shocking. I missed out 'down line' as they say, ie Pembroke, Milford Haven and St Davids as at least their on the Great Western line, so think you can catch the 10:05 (I think) last train from Llanelli down there. But bus-wise it's terrible. And to think people moan about Cardiff and the Valleys (though I used to moan regularly about Treforest when I lived up there )

maestegmafia wrote:FR these things take time.

Yeah I know. I just see Wales as one of the nations with a great rugby tradition. You see it in the brilliant individuals they always produce, even though they've had problems and haven't always produced great sides. I want them to reach their full potential, as I believe it is in Irish rugby's interests to consistently compete with the highest quality opposition possible.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Although considering some of the English reaction to Irish teams winning the HC, maybe if a Welsh team won it they really would just leave the competition entirely and never come back, saying it's unfair.

Don't forget the French now

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Although considering some of the English reaction to Irish teams winning the HC, maybe if a Welsh team won it they really would just leave the competition entirely and never come back, saying it's unfair.

Don't forget the French now

Ah I was only messing. Actually, after I posted that I thought I might accidentally start an argument with some irate English posters who might take me seriously. So thanks for having a sense of humour BigTrev.

Feckless they actually would leave if that happened though. Gives the English all the more reason to cheer for any other team playing the Welsh .

Feckless Rogue wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:FR these things take time.

Yeah I know. I just see Wales as one of the nations with a great rugby tradition. You see it in the brilliant individuals they always produce, even though they've had problems and haven't always produced great sides. I want them to reach their full potential, as I believe it is in Irish rugby's interests to consistently compete with the highest quality opposition possible.

Well it has taken forty years to realise what made us so good in the fifties sixties and seventies and make the relevant adaption to the modern game. They have now... Hopefully we should see Wales back to being a small nation that participates at the higher echelons of rugby with surprising success. More so i hope we don't neglect the grass roots ever again..!

Morgannwg wrote:Feckless they actually would leave if that happened though. Gives the English all the more reason to cheer for any other team playing the Welsh .

See the difference Feckless has a mutual sense of humour you have a chip - cheer up & chill out....

Lads,

Stay on topic. There is a bickering thread you can use to accuse each Other of having chips on shoulders etc...!!!

Everyone was playing nicely here previously. Let's keep it that way.

maestegmafia wrote:Lads,

Stay on topic. There is a bickering thread you can use to accuse each Other of having chips on shoulders etc...!!!

Everyone was playing nicely here previously. Let's keep it that way.

I'm with you on that one

Good man Trev...!

Feckless Rogue wrote:I just hope that soon one or more of the regions will start to regularly go far in the HC or even win it. This is what helped Munster and Leinster grow very small attendance figures into the largest in the league. Success at the highest level. Imagine if Ulster, Cardiff Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys were able to attract the support that Munster and Leinster do.

I think Ulster, Cardiff and Ospreys could. Not sure about Scarlets. All that extra money could be invested back into the sides and we could have an incredibly high quality league. The Scots are only recently getting more investment too. But I can't see the interest in Scotland ever growing by that much. In Wales it really could.

I don't think the PRO12 is still anywhere near its full potential. But I also fear it could go the other way. There's still danger of Italian or Welsh teams going bust and collapsing. Connacht's future seems secure. Not sure about the Scottish sides.

But the big problem is attendance. In the case of Connacht, Edinburgh and Glasgow, and probably Zebre, there just isn't enough interest in rugby. There is in Wales. So the Welsh regions are the ones with the biggest potential to grow their attendances and take in all the cash that makes.

Though some would loath to let you believe it the regions am WRU are doing everything to try and encourage this.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Smirnoff - the futher west you go the worse it gets, to the point of almost non-existance (2 buses a bloody day for some places).

I know, I still can't believe how difficult it is to get to Oakwood if you haven't got a car the buses are shocking. I missed out 'down line' as they say, ie Pembroke, Milford Haven and St Davids as at least their on the Great Western line, so think you can catch the 10:05 (I think) last train from Llanelli down there. But bus-wise it's terrible. And to think people moan about Cardiff and the Valleys (though I used to moan regularly about Treforest when I lived up there )

Only matches that you can reliably catch the train to are Saturday afternoon games. The evening kick-offs are too touch and go for getting back to the train station before the last train (one every 2 hours), and then Sundays the first train leaves Milford at dinner time, and never gets to Llanelli with enough time to get to the stadium. There are no buses that run up to Llanelli at all (well National Express Coaches but that don't count).

P.S. I used to work at Oakwood for two years and I got to be honest if it were not for the Staff bus they put on I would not have been able to have made it there at all.

I raised the question of travel vs attendences figures in south Wales a number of times before.

Certainly in regards to the ospreys where transport is more frequent and usable than further west it is still a struggle to get to an evening kick off from the Afan Valley without a car.

Certainly plenty of local pensioners as well as young blokes all keen to attend find transport a difficulty.

As yet it is one that is un-adressed.

It is apparently not easy to make your way to the liberty from central Swansea I you finish at six an the kick off is half seven.

More Saturday afternoon matches would be pleasing.

I remember that all of the regions at one point or another have commented about putting on travel around the region to get fans to and from games. I guess these plans just ended up failling due to lack of interest, as those who want toregular attend the games already had their own systems (car/train/lifts etc) in place, and those who only wanted to go to the odd game didn't number enough to make it viable.

The Scarlets and Solcox Coaches were meant to running a scheme like that in Pembs (the third season of regionalism I think) and it turned out the bus ran to the HEC games and the Ospreys at home and that was it. There wasn't enough part time support to put on a bus for any regular matches.

Good read guys.

SS - the regions should get more organised like they are here. Maybe a decent business opportunity beckons if the numbers are there?

Although a different sport, different place; I get bombarded with emails from my NRL club offering coach trips to matches across town... up to Newcastle, down to Melbourne and even group discounts to fly with other members up to Brisbane (and over to Perth a few weeks ago). They make it so easy for the dedicated fan. Maybe the Regions need more of this type of thing - would it be a goer do you think?

As well as deals on merchandise, etc I got one the other day where you roll up to the hotel... just mention the club name/or wear the jersey on special game days/nights and you get a free beer coupon and go into the draw for a prize. Nice bit of marketing that.

I heard (can't say if it's true one way or another) that most of the regions used to offer free transport to/from games for places around the region(s) at the start of regionalisation but apparently the interest/numbers wasn't there and it cost far too much for too little interest.

Linebreaker wrote:SS - the regions should get more organised like they are here. Maybe a decent business opportunity beckons if the numbers are there?

That is the problem the numbers are there, but have now got their own routines and pre-match traditons etc, and then those who are left are the turn up once a season sort, and they can't be counted on.

It's a catch 22.

Certainly an area where the regions/WRU could invest some effort to assist. Find the problems work out a solution and put it in place.

One thing that annoys me about the Scarlets is how poorly organised their 'shuttle' buses to the train station are, I keep hearing that they run, but I get to games and different stewards tell me different things, usually that their not running or that they don't know where the buses are running from, or they just point vaguely at the coaches and say over there somewhere.

A shuttle bus to the train station could very well mean the difference between catching the last train home or not making the match at all.