Article on Welsh rugby losing players abroad

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May 25th, 2012 by MarkL


Welsh rugby fans departing for foreign lands in the professional era of rugby is nothing new. The likes of Colin Charvis (Tarbes), Chris Wyatt (Munster), Rob Howely (Wasps) and Stephen Jones (Clermont), to name a few, all departed our borders in search of a handsome wage when at the back end of their playing careers.

Similarly, players who realised that future opportunities of playing for the national side were becoming increasingly remote also upped sticks – Nicky Robinson (Wasps), his brother Jamie (Agen), Gareth Delve (Melbourne) and Alix Popham (Brive) being some of the higher profile examples.

So, why the alarm at the recent exodus? Perhaps it’s just the sheer number of current internationals in close proximity who are leaving, or have not long left, the regions. Lee Byrne, Mike Phillips and James Hook all departed last season, of course, and come September, Luke Charteris, Gethin Jenkins, Richie Rees, Huw Bennett, Paul James and Aled Brew will be plying their trade on foreign fields.

But a closer look suggests things maybe aren’t so bad as they first appear. All of these players listed are nearer 30 years of age than they are 20, and with the exception of Charteris, Phillips and Jenkins, were not first choice for Wales in 2012.

A positive spin, then, is that these departures offer a great opportunity for Wales’ young players to develop, with the big names no longer limiting their game time. Consider the case of Rhys Webb, the young scrum half who earned a call up to the Wales squad following impressively consistent displays for his region this season, culminating in his first cap as a replacement in the win over Italy in the Six Nations. In an interview earlier this month, Webb said,

“It’s been a tough couple of years at the Ospreys in my position, with the likes of Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall there… They gave me a chance over Mike last season… and I’ve just kept going from there.”

There is a good chance that Webb may have broken through this season anyway, but there can be little doubt that big name departures have given him more chances to shine and to take on greater responsibility, and the player has blossomed as a consequence.

Whilst depth of talent has always been a problem in Wales in the professional era, there are good signs of another talented crop of youngsters on the horizon. In his first full season, Scarlets 21 year old full-back, Liam Williams, was named the region’s players’ player of the year, as well as the LV=Cup Breakthrough Player ahead of fellow-nominated Welshmen Matthew Morgan of the Ospreys and 21 year old Scarlets centre Adam Warren. Likewise, Harry Robinson has been pulling up trees at the Blues, drawing favourable comparisons with namesake and former England pro Jason Robinson by Welsh coach Warren Gatland.

Also, let’s remember that the young players who shone at the World Cup, such as Faletau, Warburton, Priestland and Lydiate, will still be pulling on Welsh regions’ jerseys come September. As will George North and Alex Cuthbert who, most of us will confess, we hadn’t even heard of 18 months ago. And who’s to say that another few young Welsh gems won’t be unearthed in the coming season too.

Suddenly, things don’t seem so bad. Heineken Cup anyone?

How about an 8/10 team premiership.

maestegmafia wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:There was 1 or 2 players released for the training camp before the 6Ns

All the French based players in the Welsh squad were released during the week for welsh training camps but had to return for games on the weekend.


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-in-wales/2012/01/06/french-go-ahead-for-lee-byrne-and-mike-phillips-91466-30068387/

All International players would be released for the same period as it's the International Window. The only time Welsh players have been released outside the window was before the World Cup. The PRL allowed for the Scots, Samoans, Tongans, etc to be released early for the World Cup also.

Anyway, a full Welsh professional league is unrealistic at the moment. The interest at the moment seems to be focused on the International side and the WRU are using it to build their finances and then invest some of it into the regions. They do this rather than build the regions to make them more self-sufficient. Would more financial stable regions be good for the WRU? They have the control over them due to them relying on the WRU handouts (including from the ERC which is a club competition). IF they didn't 'need' the WRU as much would they be as willing to lose players for longer? It wasn't that long ago the courts were involved in all this.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Anyway, a full Welsh professional league is unrealistic at the moment. The interest at the moment seems to be focused on the International side and the WRU are using it to build their finances and then invest some of it into the regions. They do this rather than build the regions to make them more self-sufficient. Would more financial stable regions be good for the WRU? They have the control over them due to them relying on the WRU handouts (including from the ERC which is a club competition).

Interesting point... From what I understood, part of the WRU PWC investigation was to find out whether the regions can be financial viable in the future. And to find ways that the WRU could help them to be so.

I think financial stability would be excellent so long as there was some sort of long term participation agreement or central contracts.

Keeps being talked about doesnt it... Central contracting or no central contracting???

I think it's way too late for central contracting like New Zealand and Ireland. Maybe top players are contracted to the WRU but rented to the regions. Another option is the union plays directly to the players for their annual salary. Or they give extra money to the regions for the players. Lot's of options. Without a doubt none of them will please everyone. I do think that the WRU should be putting more emphasis on the regions, rather than focusing so heavily on the international side.

Although, it comes down to what the Welsh public want.

It must be galling for a lot fans that the PCW report wasn't made public?

Will it after the consultation period between the WRU & the Regions?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It must be galling for a lot fans that the PCW report wasn't made public?

Will it after the consultation period between the WRU & the Regions?

Not really, most fans are concerned that the regions are not as successful as our national team, but the report is only a means to finding out financial details for the WRU and nothing to do with playing rugby.

I don't care whether I see it or not, I just hope it was useful.

The WRU have made some very sensible decisions over the last decade in regards to the future of welsh rugby. I am happy that with good information from PWC they will carry on doing so.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It must be galling for a lot fans that the PCW report wasn't made public?

Will it after the consultation period between the WRU & the Regions?

Not really, most fans are concerned that the regions are not as successful as our national team, but the report is only a means to finding out financial details for the WRU and nothing to do with playing rugby.

I don't care whether I see it or not, I just hope it was useful.

The WRU have made some very sensible decisions over the last decade in regards to the future of welsh rugby. I am happy that with good information from PWC they will carry on doing so.

I suspect you don't speak for a lot of Welsh rugby fans both regional and national though.

The WRU didn't necessarily make 'very sensible decisions' about the number of regions originally & rumours abound of 3 regions now(I wonder if this was a proposal by PWC?) but we may never know.

The WRU still have a massive debt of the stadium to pay off & it was a long time ago that Lewis was boldly proclaiming,
'.... if we get this right we will come up with something that will be the envy of the rugby world'.

Good luck with that one.

The three Regions rumour has been going around for years, it was cooked up by online fans. There isn't a 'massive' debt as you put it, and seeing as the WRU are making profit year on year then Roger Lewis might just have a point. You can check the end of year report btw, it's available on the WRU web-site.

The WRU have reduced the stadium debt massively, as Morg says their making money as opposed to 10 years ago when they were deep in the red, loosing large amounts of money and with a huge stadium debt hanging over them. Now they are paying off a significant amount of the debt (I believe) and investing more money in the regions/grass roots/academies than ever before.

I can't see the WRU reducing the regions down to 3. And yes the original set up of the regions was a huge mess, but as the WRU didn't have any money, let alone the money to pay off clubs (for player contracts) as well as to set up the regions, they were at the mercy of the bigger benefactors/money men who obviously wanted their original clubs interests to come 1st - we then had the botched regional system, further componded when Ebbw didn't put money in for their half of the Dragons, and Pony couldn't afford their half of the Warriors resulting in the WRU taking over half of the Dragons and shuting down the Warriors (as the WRU only ever wanted 4 regions). A big mess.

But the WRU are one of the most profitable unions in the world, the national team is going from strength to strength, gone are the days of 50 point hammerings to the top 5 sides in the world. The academies are working fantastically, there's clear routes from grass roots to international rugby allowing hugely talented youngsters to gain international honours. There is a lot to be positive about - and the regions are beginning to become profitable (if they keep the same way and continue to improve in a 2 years then at least 3 of them should be pofitable)

Good to hear about the big reduction in the debt but it is still another thing the WRU need to factor in whatever route they decide to go with the Regions.

Central contracts or the English-type system whereby the Regions will still have their internationals?
If central contracts came in surely that would stifle even further the lack of progress in the HC?

I am gutted to see the end of any club or region. I remember Celtic Warriors beating my team Wasps when we were in our pomp & then sadly they disappeared!

Yeah it was gutting - but while it was the WRU that shafted them (IMO) it was also to do with no money man coming forward from Ponty and the WRU not having the money for 5 regions and to take 50% off Samuel, for the above reasons.

The debt the WRU have has been calculated for and budgeted, and will reduce year on year (I may be wrong but I think they've renegotiated the loan with the bank, Barclays?, to give better interest rates as the WRU are ahead of the payment schedule). As such they have more money to invest and help out the regions - however to do all this they need the extra international in the AIs.

At the minute the regions have a similar agreement to England, however as Englands internationals are spread over 2 clubs and Wales' are spread over 4 we are hit more, and we also have significantly less Italian, Fijian, Somaon and Tongan players to cover the absences than the AV. But the plus side is that while our internationals play roughly the same amount as the English counterparts we blood a lot of youngsters and ensure that the next wave of talent is pushing the current internationals for places.

The WRU/Barclays situation is complicated, but the debt is being reduced to more manageable proportions. They did pay £5m(!) to get out of an interest rate hedge;

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/5342.php

which suggests John Union at Barclays had Roger Lewis over a barrel, but at some point in the future the "revolving facility" (overdraft) should pay off. Unless Pickering spends it all on hospitality tents.

A lot of top earners will go to France and England for the foreseeable - but as Smirnoff said, this just gives more youngsters an opportunity. The situation looks okay for a while.

Casartelli wrote:The WRU/Barclays situation is complicated, but the debt is being reduced to more manageable proportions. They did pay £5m(!) to get out of an interest rate hedge;

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/5342.php

which suggests John Union at Barclays had Roger Lewis over a barrel, but at some point in the future the "revolving facility" (overdraft) should pay off. Unless Pickering spends it all on hospitality tents.

A lot of top earners will go to France and England for the foreseeable - but as Smirnoff said, this just gives more youngsters an opportunity. The situation looks okay for a while.

Which was basically the whole point of regionalism in the first place.

I thought the point of regionalism was to reduce the number of pro teams the WRU had to support. Surely if there were more teams with less money kids would be playing more often (until they went bust).

The one thing that I've heard recently which I think is a bit of a concern is the amount of funding given to the regions by the WRU. Please correct me when I'm wrong.

The WRU give the regions a total of £6M per year (£1.5M each).
IRFU documents state that they get 5M euroes per year from the ERC (+ extra if their teams do well) [this is just for the TV rights but we'll assume it forms the vast majority).
Assuming that the WRU get the same amount (same number of teams so they should) then that's about £4M from the ERC alone.
Add in the RABO sponsorship and you're not that far off the £6M.
Baring in mind that this includes extra money for extra release time there doesn't seem to be a lot of investment in the regions.

Is the Pro12 sponsorship/tv rights go to the WRU first or directly to the regions? The LV cup money goes straight to the English clubs so I'd expect it's the same for the Regions.

Thunor - the point was to reduce the number of teams to create a clearer pathway. It is more competitive in order ot get into the regions, and the youngsters will be playing alongside higher quality players. So three or four high profile players leaving (spread among the regions) a season will not dent the overall strength of the regions, ans it will allow another promising younster to come through.

Look at the players who left last season. Rhys Webb has stepping up into Phillips' shirt at the Ospreys, Ashley Beck stepping into Hook's old shirt. Both Webb and Beck toured Aus in the Summer.

But if the regions were financially more stable they would be able to afford higher salaries so fewer players would be leaving (including the journeymen who move as well as the top players). This would clog up the system. It's only because the regions are strapped for cash this has happened. Look at Scarlets a few seasons ago when they were flashing the cash about, bringing in plenty of foreign players. It was only when the money went belly up that they HAD to rely on the young players.

HammerofThunor wrote:But if the regions were financially more stable they would be able to afford higher salaries so fewer players would be leaving (including the journeymen who move as well as the top players). This would clog up the system. It's only because the regions are strapped for cash this has happened. Look at Scarlets a few seasons ago when they were flashing the cash about, bringing in plenty of foreign players. It was only when the money went belly up that they HAD to rely on the young players.

That's a good observation - regionalism is starting to look (after 10 years!) viable by accident rather than design. But hey, this is Wales, so we'll take it. Ultimately, for no apparent reason, shambolic regions seem to produce decent test players here.

The downfall could be the enormous debts. Each team can only generate a finite amount of support from the towns and cities in which they are based, so extra income has to come from elsewhere (WRU?) at some point soon, or the whole thing will collapse.

I think at the start of regionalism, they all went a bit mental with the cheque books, i guess because they had cash, and did seem to think that being from the SH meant you were a quality player, which seemed to lead to trying to get better NWQs etc. It does seem to have gotten to a sensible situation now, where a handful of NWQs are brought in to strengthen weaker areas (Whilst young welsh options are being brought through), and the rest of the team is made up of Welsh lads.

Agree with what SS says, the situation at the start of regionalism prob wasn't helped by the size of the talent pool in Wales where there were few Welsh internationals-standard players in each position so if the regions (who had some money and wanted marque signings to bring in the fans, and were stupidly run) wanted to stay competitive they bought SH (even though some of the SH players were atrocious).

What happens when the regions are on sound financial ground? Or are we expected that to never happen?

HammerofThunor wrote:What happens when the regions are on sound financial ground? Or are we expected that to never happen?

If it did happen - all the youngsters would be back to bench-warming duty and we'd throw money at over the hill SH players. History teaches us this sort of stuff.

Casartelli wrote:
That's a good observation - regionalism is starting to look (after 10 years!) viable by accident rather than design. But hey, this is Wales, so we'll take it. Ultimately, for no apparent reason, shambolic regions seem to produce decent test players here.

The downfall could be the enormous debts. Each team can only generate a finite amount of support from the towns and cities in which they are based, so extra income has to come from elsewhere (WRU?) at some point soon, or the whole thing will collapse.

Absurd.

Never mind the fact that the regions a) take as much of a role in developing players as the WRU only to lose said players when they need them most to fulfil team Wales commitments, b)generate the majority of their own income via tv money which the WRU simply dole out, and b) crowd figures are better than pre-regional rugby as a rule.

You want to see the problem with regional rugby? Take a look in the mirror.

Stone Motif -

The problem with Regional rugby is finance and crowds.
Are crowds bigger now than pre Regional?
Gone are all the local club rivalries & now supporters sit in empty large stadiums with no atmosphere & it is well documented that the crowds are dwindling.

The WRU needs the regions as much as the regions need the WRU.

Yes the crowds are bigger than pre-regionalisation, despite what the naysayers say, and as said previously on this thread the finances are much better than at the start (and pre) regionalisation, and are improving - particularly under this new wage cap, and I imagine they will improve greater with the recommendations of the PWC report (though I would like to see it).

The crowds are growing, not dwindelling - and the Scarlets for one were averaging 8,000 fans in a 14k stadium - which is similar, or slightly worse than some AV sides who have existed for decades rather than years and in much greater population centres, the Ospreys are looking at similar or better crowds next year, the Dragons have always generated a huge and intimidating atmosphere in the Dave (Rodney Parade) despite living with their means, and as a result frequently finish bottom of the regions. The Blues and Ospreys have suffered from being in huge football stadiums which are empty and souless, but with the Blues back at the CAP hopefully they can turn it into a packed inferno of atmosphere for home games - at the very least it should be an improvement on the CCS. (PS the Dave and CAP were played in before regionalisation)
So not sure where you've seen this documentation that is 'well documented'.

Though I agree the WRU needs the regions as much as the regions need the WRU.

Smirnoff,

Just google 'welsh regional attendances' - here is one of a number of examples.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/9158694/Wales-face-up-to-regional-crisis-now-Six-Nations-Grand-Slam-party-is-over.html

Yet factually as Smirnoff says attendances are increasing year on year. Slowly, amdmittedly, but still above what we used to get in the 'good old days' of the clubs. People in Wales have short memories. How many do you think used to turn up to watch Dunvant ship 50 points every week?

The main problems for the regions are 1. the Welsh psyche, within which villagism is writ large 2. the Welsh economy, which is on its knees 3. constant reference to rugby being a national sport when it is nothing of the sort, setting unrealistic expectations for regional support, and 4. the national carnivale that is Team Wales, where the only ones who care about watching rugby are those who never get to see the players they saw develop to satisfy the cravings of a bunch of pink-hatted harridans on the sauce.

Under the circumstances, the regions do pretty well in my opinion.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Agree with what SS says, the situation at the start of regionalism prob wasn't helped by the size of the talent pool in Wales where there were few Welsh internationals-standard players in each position so if the regions (who had some money and wanted marque signings to bring in the fans, and were stupidly run) wanted to stay competitive they bought SH (even though some of the SH players were atrocious).

I'd have a slightly different view, in that even where the SH players might have been less talented than some of the more experienced Welsh players the first generations of regional players might have learned from, I'd also argue the SH players were generally still head in terms of athleticism, professionalism, and discipline.

If the regions do make a finial turn for the better then I dont see them reverting to superstar signings having invested so heavily in the welsh youth at academies.

The direction of welsh rugby at all levels is to be sustainable and successful. Regions are turning out more and more welsh qualified talent and relying less on imports.

Even the Blues who have probably relied more than the other three regions on overseas talent now have a strong welsh qualified youthful look about their squad currently touring SA.

There is success below regional level with welsh premiership teams doing very well in the British and Irish cup last season. Hopefully their progress will continue, remember they are semi pro playing against fully professional teams.

Stone Motif wrote:Yet factually as Smirnoff says attendances are increasing year on year. Slowly, amdmittedly, but still above what we used to get in the 'good old days' of the clubs. People in Wales have short memories. How many do you think used to turn up to watch Dunvant ship 50 points every week?

The main problems for the regions are 1. the Welsh psyche, within which villagism is writ large 2. the Welsh economy, which is on its knees 3. constant reference to rugby being a national sport when it is nothing of the sort, setting unrealistic expectations for regional support, and 4. the national carnivale that is Team Wales, where the only ones who care about watching rugby are those who never get to see the players they saw develop to satisfy the cravings of a bunch of pink-hatted harridans on the sauce.

Under the circumstances, the regions do pretty well in my opinion.

I agree with your assessment on the problems for the regions.

However, attendances for the Blues & Ospreys have fallen away in the last 2 seasons, Dragons about the same and Scarlets buck the trend. All in all the attendances can't be said to be increasing year on year.
Surely it was this and the finances that prompted the review?

The investigation was a great idea. We are lucky that the WRU were legally allowed to do so. It would be impossible in many other European Countries.

It is all part of the WRU taking more control of the regions.

Casartelli wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:What happens when the regions are on sound financial ground? Or are we expected that to never happen?

If it did happen - all the youngsters would be back to bench-warming duty and we'd throw money at over the hill SH players. History teaches us this sort of stuff.

Nonesence. If money returns you may see a few more big name signings, more along the lines of the Irish provinces, and maybe a few bigger name coaches coming in, but I don't think there will be torrents of sub-par NWQs coming over. THe NWQ limits and Salary cap will make it very hard for regions to waste their money on sub-par NWQs, as they will not be able to offer hte 'big money'.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Smirnoff,

Just google 'welsh regional attendances' - here is one of a number of examples.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/9158694/Wales-face-up-to-regional-crisis-now-Six-Nations-Grand-Slam-party-is-over.html

Ahh sorry, when you said 'documented' I thought you meant lots of documentation based on facts and figures. Of course there's plenty of press stories about the 'mass exodus' of Welsh internationals, even though the only 1st team players moving are Jenkins, Phillips and arguably Charteris, and Phillips was frozen out at the Ospreys as Webbs form was much better.

To be honest most of that article and similar ones in the Western Mail and BBC website are hyperbole and easy journalism - much like the ones saying "the Scarlets would out of business by the end of the season" that we've had every few months for the past 3-4 years, and now the same is happening for the Dragons, but the both regions are still here, the Dragons have just invested in a new stand (where the majority of their £2.4m debt comes from) and the Scarlets are improving on and off the pitch and looking to break even the season after next.

Smirnoff - that article that was linked by BigTrev was out around the same time the Beeb did that cracking programme about how nobody supported the regions etc, and tried to push the valleys region.

Exactly my point, there were loads of articles out at that time, and all pretty much spouting rubbish

Does anyone have the facts and figures then?

Found these online


Attendances for league (2011/12)


..................Sum ........ Average
Aironi..........31,638......2,876
Blues...........77,247 ......7,022
Connacht......51,174......4,652
Dragons.......67,114......6,101
Edinburgh.....46,769......4,252
Glasgow......44,206.......4,019
Leinster......209,475.....19,043
Munster......162,774.....14,798
Ospreys.......90,190......7,516
Scarlets.......99,070......9,006
Treviso.......42,900.......3,900
Ulster.........80,341.......8,034

maestegmafia wrote:The investigation was a great idea. We are lucky that the WRU were legally allowed to do so. It would be impossible in many other European Countries.

It is all part of the WRU taking more control of the regions.

Do you think this is a good thing maes?

try here

http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=394&statType=home_Att

Going on Rabo/Magners only, the attendances look like this

BLUES

2011/12 Ave = 7,667 Highest = 10,660
2010/11 Ave = 10,356 Highest = 22,160
2009/10 Ave = 10,635 Highest = 16,341
2008/09 Ave = 8,608 Highest = 12,813
2007/08 Ave = 8,241 Highest = 12,532

DRAGONS

2011/12 Ave = 6,094 Highest = 8,038
2010/11 Ave = 5,028 Highest = 6,720
2009/10 Ave = 5,901 Highest = 8,108
2008/09 Ave = 5,574 Highest = 10,180
2007/08 Ave = 4,972 Highest = 6,782

OSPREYS

2011/12 Ave = 7,917 Highest = 14,478
2010/11 Ave = 7,340 Highest = 18,151
2009/10 Ave = 8,417 Highest = 14,476
2008/09 Ave = 8,405 Highest = 20,520
2007/08 Ave = 8,702 Highest = 16,109

SCARLETS

2011/12 Ave = 9,483 Highest = 14,756
2010/11 Ave = 7,859 Highest = 13,707
2009/10 Ave = 6,805 Highest = 10,171
2008/09 Ave = 7,302 Highest = 11,444
2007/08 Ave = 7,350 Highest = 10,739


I would say that with the exception of the Ospreys (and the BLues last season, and we all know that was a protest) the region attendances have grown year after year.

Yup it's worth noting that many Blues fans were protesting against the owners and staying away from the ground - hence they only had 3.5k turn up to watch many of their stalwarts play their last game (and half of those were Scarlets fans)

Smirnoff - the sad thing is that even with figures and numbers infront of them we will not hear a word of apology or even acceptance from those who want to knock the regions, all we will get is the fact the Blues and Ospreys have slumped in support.

I'd say from those:

Ospreys are worse attended now than they were 3 years ago in terms of maximum and average. Who knows what will happen next year.

Dragons have been a bit up and down but their average is up and the maximum is down which suggests are larger core following.

Blues, a big dip when they moved, the odd big game boosting their average in the first season at the new ground. We'll will see what happens now they've moved back.

Scarlets, doing well after their blip. If they do manage to start breaking even next season then it be a boost. As I understand it they're relying on 'friendly' (is it three guys) putting money in, similar to Quins.

gowales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The investigation was a great idea. We are lucky that the WRU were legally allowed to do so. It would be impossible in many other European Countries.

It is all part of the WRU taking more control of the regions.

Do you think this is a good thing maes?

Definitely.

I never thought the regions should have been set up as an entrepreneurial experience. The biggest problems we have in professional rugby is due to protecting the interests of private investors.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'd say from those:

Ospreys are worse supported now than they were 3 years ago in terms of maximum and average. Who knows what will happen next year.

Dragons have been a bit up and down but their average is up and the maximum is down which suggests are larger core following.

Blues, a big dip when they moved, the odd big game boosting their average in the first season at the new ground. We'll will see what happens now they've moved back.

Scarlets, doing well after their blip. If they do manage to start breaking even next season then it be a boost. As I understand it they're relying on 'friendly' (is it three guys) putting money in, similar to Quins.

Not less supported, less attended.

There is a huge effect from economic impact in the area.

HammerofThunor wrote:Ospreys are worse supported now than they were 3 years ago in terms of maximum and average. Who knows what will happen next year.

Things look good for next season, they have shifted 8,000 season tickets so I would guess that means the average attendance, and providing they can tempt some away fans to turn up (and 700 away fans is pretty easy to achieve) then they should be looking at record average attendances.

Thing is half of those tickets were free. The impulse and desire to turn up isn't the same if you haven't had to pay for the ticket. People will probably have got one of them rather than pay for a ticket the three times a year they go. I don't doubt they'll be used for the 'official' attendances but that doesn't mean more people will turn up. However, if some of those 3-games-a-year guys turn up 4 or 5 or more times then it'll be a bonus. If you get the bug and turn up for all of them (some probably will) then excellent.

Maesteg, yeah sorry about that. I'll change it.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the O's over the next 2 years. Will they use the "incentives" again next year or hope that the supporters pay full price. I guess it all depends on how successful they are this year.

I'd just reduce them. Instead of BOGOF, buy one get one half price. Test the water to see how many drop it or carry on and work from there. There seems to be a more positive vibe with Tandy in. We shall see.

Yeah tbh my view is that when you're competing with Swansea City who are playing in the biggest football league in the world against the likes of Man U and Arsenal then the smart thing is probably to lower ticket prices. When you've got a choice between that and the Pro12, no contest really.

The O's only need to average around 8,000 to break even. So if we can get double that amount but only half are actually paying it doesn't really matter! As long as there is atmosphere people will come.