Autumn internationals

First topic message reminder :

Wales meets Australia again on Dec 1st at home. What worries me is that it's outside the IRB window and that means we are going to be deprived of a whole load of top players like Gethin Paul James, Phillips Hook etc. We badly need to end this run of 5 close defeats by Oz but may struggle for manpower unless some of our much vaunted strength-in-depth comes through.

In my humble opinion, I feel the All blacks will beat England, albet there will still be lots of English hopeless optimism, besides, no one has a plan to beat the All Blacks but I do, Its fairlly simple if you think about it.

AIs really can't come quick enough. The rugby championship is really putting the summer tours in to perspective.

That's the second time recently you've said about the RC putting the summer tours into perspective and I am confused by the comment. Any chance you can explain what you mean, as I don't see how after 2 games it's doing anything of the sort.

To true. Better add it's the last test of the year to the list of excuses...

Taylorman wrote:All Blacks will lose the England match...

1 After 20 consecutive Home Union wins we can't possibly keep that record intact forever

2 We usually lose to England at home every 10 years- the match at twickers on 1 Dec 2012 represents 10 years and 22 days from the last loss on 9 November 2002 at twickers.

3 Its in the tea leaves...

Sure mate, apologies for any confusion.

Now we have seen how the NZ, Oz, SA and Argentinian teams play against each other it shows good bad or indifferent they were vs the NH teams that played them in June.

I don't see how it does, different teams will always fare differently against different opposition.

Take Australia as an example. They got humped by the AB's. What perspective does that put on their results with Wales? None as far as I can see, other than reiterating what we already know, that New Zealand are far and away the best side in the world right now.

maestegmafia wrote:Sure mate, apologies for any confusion.

Now we have seen how the SH and Argentinian teams play against each other it shows good bad or indifferent they were vs the NH teams that played them in June.

I can not understand your words, is that Argentina does not belong to the southern hemisphere?

Argie fan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Sure mate, apologies for any confusion.

Now we have seen how the SH and Argentinian teams play against each other it shows good bad or indifferent they were vs the NH teams that played them in June.

I can not understand your words, is that Argentina does not belong to the southern hemisphere?

Corrected...!

Yes Argentina is a SH team.

Though must allow some grace here as SA, OZ and NZ are commonly referred to as the SH, being, I suppose, an abbreviation of the SH superpowers or something similar. Now the Argentinians have changed that trio into a quartet it may take us all some time to remember.

Though results like Saturdays will not be forgotten quickly. We are all expecting big things now.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I don't see how it does, different teams will always fare differently against different opposition.

Take Australia as an example. They got humped by the AB's. What perspective does that put on their results with Wales? None as far as I can see, other than reiterating what we already know, that New Zealand are far and away the best side in the world right now.

What you just said reiterates my point.

Basically the more you see of a team the more you know their realistic aspirations and limitations.

In all honesty there is currently little value that can be taken out of the Boks perfromances.

They are absolutely atrocious at the moment.

The squad will most likely have significant changes by then, Meyer will be under enormous pressure if these performances continue and the call for changes at 9, 10 and 15 will not be ignored.

The SA public isn't forgiving and after the past four years where criticism were not PC, Meyer will not escape the gunfire levelled at him as everyone and his dog saw him as the saviour of SA rugby.

He may think his little bubble is still protecting him, but believe me he will not survive the year by going at it with tunnel vision. The pundits and commentators on various programs have not been this open and vicivorous about their dissappointment of what is happening.

These changes will come one of two ways, either Meyer wakes up and smell the coffee, or public pressure will enforce these changes.

Players such as Goosen, JP Pietersen, Paul Jordaan, Coenie Oosthuizen, Kolisi, Lambie, Pretorius will all make the Autumn Internationals and even though less experienced, they might by then have a new captain and a different attitude.

The worse it goes in the Rugby Championship, the more pressure will be applied exponentially on Meyer.

SA rugby fans aren't the forgiving type, their pride and passion doesn't allow for it.

Bil,

How much pressure can be applied through failure...? Should SA come last, not that i think they will, would Meyer lose his post?

I guess a honeymoon period has to be awarded and that should last longer than ten tests these days.

But should his stock not rise during the AIs I imagine he will be under immense pressure.

maestegmafia wrote:Bil,

How much pressure can be applied through failure...? Should SA come last, not that i think they will, would Meyer lose his post?

I guess a honeymoon period has to be awarded and that should last longer than ten tests these days.

But should his stock not rise during the AIs I imagine he will be under immense pressure.

No kidding, look at Deans!!!

Deans isn't the only one...!

Sometimes it's tougher on a nation when success precedes mundeitity.

maestegmafia wrote:Bil,

How much pressure can be applied through failure...? Should SA come last, not that i think they will, would Meyer lose his post?

I guess a honeymoon period has to be awarded and that should last longer than ten tests these days.

But should his stock not rise during the AIs I imagine he will be under immense pressure.

Maes, if the pressure and criticism continues and even increases as is currently, Meyer will be called into a meeting with SARU and the Sporting commission and asked why he isn't adapting, remember PDV was already questioned about the lack of adaptability and the gameplan last year before the RWC, Meyer might not lose his job this year, but he can easily be pressurised by SARU to make changes.

The one thing SARu cannot afford is the antagonism or alienation of the rugby public who is not very positive about a number of things at the moment, the Lions and Kings saga, the PDV saga, etc.

Bill

That's Interesting, I didn't know PDV had been dragged through the SA mill.

I would expect improvements to be gradual though, there are some good players in SA and reading your thread post Saturday I concur with your points on selection.

Let's see how he reacts to the Argie match.

maestegmafia wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I don't see how it does, different teams will always fare differently against different opposition.

Take Australia as an example. They got humped by the AB's. What perspective does that put on their results with Wales? None as far as I can see, other than reiterating what we already know, that New Zealand are far and away the best side in the world right now.

What you just said reiterates my point.

Basically the more you see of a team the more you know their realistic aspirations and limitations.

I'm sorry mate, I'm still not getting you about the whole perspective thing. We know what most teams realistic aspirations and limitations are at present, and in essence the points differential in the world rankings is a pretty accurate reflection of the gaps between all the teams. I don't see how the AB's knocking over the Wallabies twice, and a malfunctioning SA beating Argentina at home and drawing in Mendoza has any relevance to how England, Ireland and Wales got on competing against those teams in their own back yards earlier in the summer.

Well you now know that SA are malfunctioning, Argentina have potential, Kiwis are brilliant and the ozzies were probably stronger with Barnes than Cooper, but either way the main point is that the teams ranked 2 - 7 in the IRB table are actually very close, some maybe more inflated than others.

Sure that by December we will have a very accurate seeding.

But we knew all of those things prior to the RC starting.

I think some teams we had over inflated in June and others underestimated in that is reflective on the performances of the home nations on tour.

This will raise and lower our expectations for the next time we play touring teams in the Autumn.

So what you're saying is that you think Wales can finally break the duck against the Aussies in the autumn. Fair enough given how Australia are playing at the moment.

But it's dangerous to look at teams and think we could beat them on that performance. Too often we don't give credit to the opponent of the so-called inept team. Australia have serious problems with injuries and there isn't that much cover beneath their star players. But find me a team that makes so many offloads across the park and requires the opposition to make so many more tackles and you'll see they too can make Australia look ordinary.

The 4N is two games in for each side. There are four more each still to come. Let's assess where everyone is then. NZ are not as far ahead as some would make out and SA and Australia are not so dire either.

By all means if the NH does well in the Autumn Internationals then we can assess the rankings then. Other than Scotland, the home nations were overall poor in June. Injuries are not helping SA and Australia in particular at the moment but all the 4N teams are capable of improvement at the moment.

That will depend on the combinator I think. And that may depend on the outcome of the RC.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:So what you're saying is that you think Wales can finally break the duck against the Aussies in the autumn. Fair enough given how Australia are playing at the moment.

But it's dangerous to look at teams and think we could beat them on that performance. Too often we don't give credit to the opponent of the so-called inept team. Australia have serious problems with injuries and there isn't that much cover beneath their star players. But find me a team that makes so many offloads across the park and requires the opposition to make so many more tackles and you'll see they too can make Australia look ordinary.

The 4N is two games in for each side. There are four more each still to come. Let's assess where everyone is then. NZ are not as far ahead as some would make out and SA and Australia are not so dire either.

By all means if the NH does well in the Autumn Internationals then we can assess the rankings then. Other than Scotland, the home nations were overall poor in June. Injuries are not helping SA and Australia in particular at the moment but all the 4N teams are capable of improvement at the moment.

Actually I was thinking more of my dispondant Irish mates who were depressed after their tour loss. Actually in perspective t makes the game they nearly won a larger achievement.

Wales and Australia have little between them. I think Wales should have won in June so yes I think they should win in December. Let's hope that we can do it.

By the way it's not a Duck. We have beaten Australia plenty of times before.

QC & Beale are both WC when fully fit & functioning something that they are far from currently & together with the other injuries this year has seriously affected Oz performances.
As Kiak says they haven't much cover beneath their star players.

I do think Wales missed their golden opportunity in the SIs when Oz were severely weakened.
If Oz doesn't improve & playing away as well, Wales have to fancy their chances.

Maesteg those Irish are despondent even when things appear to be going well! That's how they roll.

Wales had expectations of winning before the series and certainly that hasn't changed for the autumn after the series. I realise you've won before but it's been a while. You take 6 or 8 frontline players out of any side and they'll feel the pinch. Australia aren't getting much their own way but they're used to fighting on the ropes. Their number two ranking is a sign they know how to punch above their own weight. Wales have improved their composure and self belief against the NH sides but they have a test in the autumn to show that against the SH sides.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

gowales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Sounds like SA are in no different a situation to any of us, though you have the advantage of naturally producing very big talented backrowers where as we naturally produce light weight wingers and scrum halves.

The buying power of club rugby in England, France and Japan is taking its toll on all international teams.

The Scarlets and Edinburgh seem to be buying up South African talent as well

Scarlets dont have any South Africans, what are you talking about...?

Three NWQs a Fijian a Tongan and a new Argie for the new season.[/

 by Smirnoffpriest on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:22 pm

We've got George Earle, and are apparently signing Adriaanse and Syman who are SA (I believe)


So Scarlets have one & are buying 2 more.

Yup, we have now signed Adriaanse to go along with Earle and just need to confirm the other one.

It's a shame as both sound like journeymen, and we were reportedly close to Eaton (a former AB still on the fringes of the squad) and Pat Cilliers (in the SA squad) which I think has depressed me even more

Whats all this about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Wlz5G36TY

That's one bad advert.

That is awful!

The Welsh AIs are called the Dove Men series, which is embarrassing enough, never mind adding awful adverts as well

Ireland will lose to South Africa. They'll lose to Argentina if the Puma's have a full strength team.

That might see Ireland become a third seed team for the next RWC.

There's that unwavering optimism the Irish are famous for. Always a glass half full and the sun is just about to peek out from the clouds. I have to admire it.

We Kiwis are usually so gloomy and downcast thinking everyone will beat us. How refreshing it is to see someone so passionately convinced his team will triumph.

All the best in the autumn FR but I didn't have to say that.

We don't say like the term "all the best" in Ireland.

We prefer to say "good luck" (said in a gloomy sarcastic tone). It gets across the notion that something bad will probably happen.

Biltong wrote:You need to consider a few facts here though Scarletspiderman.

Ireand last beat SA in 2009. The Springboks will have a total new look to it by then.

From the front row only Beast remains, the lock pairing is different, the back row is different, hlaf back is different, Morne Steyn might not be there by then, Centre paring is different, only Jd Villiers is there, Habana and JP Pietersen is still there.

So you are looking at a new team, new coach, and a new philosophy of winning every match and not seeing AI's as just a development tour.

The Irish on the other hand has lost form, retained most of the players of 2009.

And the three wins that the Irish got has all been at home.

I have a feeling the tide is going to turn hard, and stay there for some time to come.

The three wins that the Irish got has all been at home? In the AIs, Ireland play at home. Where else would they be playing?

Was just looking at the teams from the 6N champs vs 3N champs game in 2009.

IRELAND: Rob Kearney; Tommy Bowe, Brian O'Driscoll (capt), Paddy Wallace, Keith Earls; Jonathan Sexton, Tomas O'Leary; Cian Healy, Jerry Flannery, John Hayes, Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Stephen Ferris, David Wallace, Jamie Heaslip.

Replacements used: Gordon D'Arcy for P Wallace (24 mins, inj), Sean O'Brien for Ferris (half-time, inj). Not used: Sean Cronin, Tony Buckley, Leo Cullen, Peter Stringer, Ronan O'Gara.

SOUTH AFRICA: Zane Kirchner; JP Pietersen, Jaque Fourie, Wynand Olivier, Bryan Habana; Morne Steyn, Fourie du Preez; Tendai Mtawarira, John Smit (capt), BJ Botha, Andries Bekker, Victor Matfield, Heinrich Brussow, Schalk Burger, Danie Rossouw.

Replacements used: CJ van der Linde for Mtawarira (43-48 mins, blood sub), Bismarck du Plessis for Botha (48), Dewald Potgieter for Bekker (62-68, blood sub), Ruan Pienaar for Steyn (62), Jean de Villiers for Olivier (64). Not used: Francois Hougaard, Jean Deysel.

For SA: "From the front row only Beast remains, the lock pairing is different, the back row is different, hlaf back is different, Morne Steyn might not be there by then, Centre paring is different, only Jd Villiers is there, Habana and JP Pietersen is still there.". The Irish "retained most of the players of 2009."

For Irleand: "From the front row only Healy remains, the lock pairing is different, the back row will be different, hlaf back is different, Ronan O'Gara might not be there by then, Centre paring is different, O'Driscoll is there, , Sexton, Earls and Kearmey is still there.

In the match day 22, I reckon there'll be enough changes on both sides from 2009 to make it an interesting match.

Of course they play the Autumn Internationals at home, my point is their 3 wins came at home and not during any away matches (at anytime).

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Is it guarenteed we won't have access to the France based players? Didn't they play in the December Oz game last year?

No, they didn't. I don't think any players have been released by the French Clubs during the season outside of the required window. The biggest thing I'm looking forward to in Argentina's improvement. I might be being a bit optimisic expecting an immediate improvement but we can hope...

Now that its confirmed that Jamie Joseph will be taking the Maori All Blacks up into England for three games in the autumn, the question I ask myself from the bottm of the World, ' is there going to be interest up there in England from the rugby community?'

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Now that its confirmed that Jamie Joseph will be taking the Maori All Blacks up into England for three games in the autumn, the question I ask myself from the bottm of the World, ' is there going to be interest up there in England from the rugby community?'

The Maori All Blacks will play Aviva Premiership winners the Leicester Tigers at Welford Road Stadium on 13 November, before taking on a select Championship XV at Castle Park on 17 November followed by Canada at Oxford University on 23 November.

"Weare very excited that our re-named Maori All Blacks will assemble this year and showcase our unique brand of rugby to the northern hemisphere.

"The team last assembled in 2010 for the historic Centenary matches against England and Ireland, and this announcement confirms our commitment to a tour programme for the Maori All Blacks," he said.

The RFU Championship XV will be coached by Bedford Blues Coach Mike Rayer, and will comprise entirely of English Qualified Players, and will take place during a fallow week for the second tier clubs.

RFU Professional Rugby Director Rob Andrew said: "We are honored to be hosting the Maori All Blacks in November. The three fixtures will provide a broad spectrum of challenges for the touring side, with both tiers of professional rugby in England represented and an international side in Canada."

Rugby Canada's Chief Executive Graham Brown said that after a memorable Rugby World Cup campaign in New Zealand last year, they were excited their national team would play the Maori All Blacks.

"This is a wonderful opportunity for our team and one we were eager to take up.  With former All Black Kieran Crowley a key part of the team as Head Coach, this match will build on already strong links between Canada and New Zealand," he said.

Jamie Joseph said he was excited at the prospect of leading the Maori All Blacks.
"This is a fantastic opportunity for Maori players in New Zealand and in this year's Investec Super Rugby competition, and already in the ITM Cup, we have seen some great talent in action."

"I'm very proud of my own Maori heritage and I am looking forward to the privilege of coaching this team."


Great news!

I'd be surprised if the first 2 games aren't sell outs. Difficult to predict the interest for the Canada game but this should still attract quite a few I believe. First & third games are on a Tuesday the Championship game is on the Saturday.

I would think that New Zealanders living in England will support the Canada game, especially as that game has the Kieren Crowley connection.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:That is awful!

The Welsh AIs are called the Dove Men series, which is embarrassing enough, never mind adding awful adverts as well

I hope the MS roof is open otherwise the 'Dove from above' will take on a new meaning!

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Now that its confirmed that Jamie Joseph will be taking the Maori All Blacks up into England for three games in the autumn, the question I ask myself from the bottm of the World, ' is there going to be interest up there in England from the rugby community?'

Great news. I hope it's being televised.

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Now that its confirmed that Jamie Joseph will be taking the Maori All Blacks up into England for three games in the autumn, the question I ask myself from the bottm of the World, ' is there going to be interest up there in England from the rugby community?'

Great news. I hope it's being televised.

It will be for us.Maori television would do it any way if Sky didnt.

I often wonder if NZ should have the European and Polynesian All Blacks as well as the All Blacks and the Maori All Blacks. Surely anything else is just discrimination? Surely the Maori All Blacks is worst than the SA quota system?

I think Maori ABs is a lazy journalist term. They are the New Zealand Maori team. Their strip is black but they are not the All Blacks.

They have a proud history and I always enjoy watching them play. But to me it's interesting to see them touring. Normally they were an option for touring teams to NZ to play. I think they'd be good in a tournament like the Pacific Cup but I'm not so sure about having them in England at the same time as when the ABs are touring the UK. Obviously the NZRFU is happy because no doubt they're milking some more cash out of this as will the RFU. Good to see Canada rewarded for a good RWC overall performance and no doubt a lot of expats will go see the match. If I lived in London, I'd definitely go see it.

Kia its what theyre called now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7029977/NZ-Maori-and-sevens-adopt-All-Blacks-name

Cheers Laurie. I remember seeing that now. My bad.

I guess they want to push the brand and increase the opportunities to do so. Bit like Lancaster Park's name changes. I lose track where they're up to now after the earthquake but don't really care which sponsor's name they put in front of Stadium. Similarly, there's only one All Black team for me.

Yes, it is all about the brand, and the marketing of all the NZRFU stable.

It doesnt matter about the grounds though, Keep calling it Lancaster park and every one knows what youre talking about.

I do mate! Like I said, I don't even know what the new one they're rebuilding is called.

Certainly the sevens world circuit reaches directly a lot of markets not visited by the ABs. Commercially I think it makes a lot of sense. In terms of tradition though, only one AB shirt counts. Even gold at Rio won't change that but it certainly is another golden opportunity for the AB brand to be promoted. I don't have a problem with it if it means more money for the NZRFU.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Kia its what theyre called now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7029977/NZ-Maori-and-sevens-adopt-All-Blacks-name

Cracking idea, now the NH will have a larger number of Capped All Blacks to clamber over signing

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Kia its what theyre called now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7029977/NZ-Maori-and-sevens-adopt-All-Blacks-name

Cracking idea, now the NH will have a larger number of Capped All Blacks to clamber over signing

We can't afford Welsh players let alone All Blacks mate..

Not NH just the Frangles

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Kia its what theyre called now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7029977/NZ-Maori-and-sevens-adopt-All-Blacks-name

Cracking idea, now the NH will have a larger number of Capped All Blacks to clamber over signing

We can't afford Welsh players let alone All Blacks mate..

Not NH just the Frangles

None sense. We have had King, Rush, Blair, Hollah and Collins in the last few years (and Willis?) and to that Tito and Manu who are Maori caps.

How come Ireland are only playing two proper tests in the AIs?

They have a match on the second weekend that's billed as Ireland XV v Fiji. What's the difference?