The Irish provinces are the best. End of.

Wum alert
Nobody can any longer compete with the massive tide (dare I say tsunami) of success.
We (non-Irish) mere mortals have to brace ourselves to be overwhelmed by all four provinces to compete each of the HEC semis.

That's the way it is and that's the way it's always going to be,

Seconded.

I am in absolute agreement with Portnoy. The sheer brilliance we exude at provincial level can never be matched. We are a colossus and it is pure folly to think that anyone can challenge us. By 2020 I fully expect us to have secured another 6 Heineken Cup victories, including two for Connacht - who in this past season not even the English champions Harlequins could best our weakest province.

I also suspect that the English and French will become so tired of being absolutely drilled in how to play rugby by the provinces that they will threaten to leave the competition and setup an inferior cup - oh wait....

Well about time he came out of that closet of denial and admitted it, eh lads? Usually he would blame the shear intensity of the superior/worlds best league, the domestic competition his Tigers compete in (tongue firmly in cheek when refering to the Premiership, Portnoy).

I concur

However

The Irish National Team.....

In the HEC yes the Irish are storming, however in the Rabo/Celtic League they are not doing so good, since the 03-04 season they have not won it 5 times (under 50%).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:In the HEC yes the Irish are storming, however in the Rabo/Celtic League they are not doing so good, since the 03-04 season they have not won it 5 times (under 50%).

I know which I'd prefer to win.

sugarNspikes wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:In the HEC yes the Irish are storming, however in the Rabo/Celtic League they are not doing so good, since the 03-04 season they have not won it 5 times (under 50%).

I know which I'd prefer to win.

Your lot are only in one of them so that don't count!

Being serious I think if the Ospreys were to get to the HEC knockout stages and draw one of the Irish sides I would fancy their chances of progression, because of their form against Irish teams in the Rabo (and the impact that has on mindsets etc). But realistically that is not likely to happen. And I don't really think there are many other teams that can get into the Irish provinces heads enought to gain an edge when it comes to knockout rugby.

munkian wrote:I concur

However

The Irish National Team.....

Barsteward .

They are undoubtedly the 4 best provinces in the whole of Ireland for nearly a Millennium. Or at least since there were 5.

I am glad a non celt has now come out and admitted this, at last you seem to be getting it Now, why is the league they play in so inferior ? oh wait.......

I think Portnoy is taking the pish but he is not wonrg. High 5s all around everyone, we're feicing awesome. Since the Welsh are piggybacking on our success can we piggy back on thier international success?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:In the HEC yes the Irish are storming, however in the Rabo/Celtic League they are not doing so good, since the 03-04 season they have not won it 5 times (under 50%).

I know which I'd prefer to win.

Your lot are only in one of them so that don't count!

Being serious I think if the Ospreys were to get to the HEC knockout stages and draw one of the Irish sides I would fancy their chances of progression, because of their form against Irish teams in the Rabo (and the impact that has on mindsets etc). But realistically that is not likely to happen. And I don't really think there are many other teams that can get into the Irish provinces heads enought to gain an edge when it comes to knockout rugby.

Honestly after Clermont and maybe Toulouse the only team I'd worry about playing in the HC knockouts would be the O's,we have to start beating them before it becomes a complex.

Thomond wrote:I think Portnoy is taking the pish but he is not wonrg. High 5s all around everyone, we're feicing awesome. Since the Welsh are piggybacking on our success can we piggy back on thier international success?

Of course we can,that's how this Celtic thing works plus we can both piggyback on the Scots for beating the Aussies on tour..

I think Leinster should leave the HC and enter the Tri-Nations.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think Leinster should leave the HC and enter the Tri-Nations.

Ulster are more suited, their key players are saffas

Thomond wrote:I think Portnoy is taking the pish but he is not wonrg. High 5s all around everyone, we're feicing awesome. Since the Welsh are piggybacking on our success can we piggy back on thier international success?

Of course I am. That's why I started the post Wum alert

But there again, there seems to me be that a little bit more than a tad of blind Irish provincial arrogance on this board deserves the wind-up.

It's not arrogance it's cute hoorishness.

Where's the arrogance in the Irish heineken cup finalists put 40 points past Leicester? Hehe.

Make hay while the sun shines wha? Everyone else does.

It's not the winning folks. It's the assumption that the wheel of fortune will not shortly have its axle broken.

It won't in Leinster, Munster's broke in 2009, and Ulster's axle is on it's way to performing solidly again. If we plan right and don't do what England did after the RWC we will be fine.

Leinster are out in front of everyone else at the minute but they do look beatable without an experienced enforcer in the second row. That might tell over the next season or so as will the aging of BOD and D'Arcy. Happens to all great teams. It happened with Leicester (possibly the greatest club pack of the pro era), Munster (Thomond Park used to be a place of dread for opposing fans) and, Tolouse.

Things don't stay the same they'll change. Can't blame the Leinster boys for enjoying themselves at the minute they are only the second team to defend a HEC and they are the best team in Europe as it stands.

Where's the arrogance in the Irish heineken cup finalists put 40 points past Leicester? Hehe.

Sheesh you make out like we had a first team there . Nah we were well beaten on that night. Shame really as our form didn't really come together until March time and by then it was to late. Wouldn't mind another crack at Ulster (outside of the friendly in a fortnight) the fans were a good crack and I'd like to see us go to Ravenhill without the injuries to see just how good we could be.

Thomond wrote:It won't in Leinster, Munster's broke in 2009, and Ulster's axle is on it's way to performing solidly again. If we plan right and don't do what England did after the RWC we will be fine.

And yet Munster can still top their group and make the KO stages. How many points did they put past Anglo rivals Northampton on their way there?

Sam, while I agree TP is not the fortress it once was, we still have only lost 3 times in HC competition there.


I don't see much arrogance really, Leinster are the best team in the tournament no problem stating it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Leinster are out in front of everyone else at the minute but they do look beatable without an experienced enforcer in the second row. That might tell over the next season or so as will the aging of BOD and D'Arcy. Happens to all great teams. It happened with Leicester (possibly the greatest club pack of the pro era), Munster (Thomond Park used to be a place of dread for opposing fans) and, Tolouse.

Things don't stay the same they'll change. Can't blame the Leinster boys for enjoying themselves at the minute they are only the second team to defend a HEC and they are the best team in Europe as it stands..

Not many teams beat Leinster last season. They beat all Irish opposition, I can't remember them losing a game in Europe. Ospreys beat them by winning the scrums and collisions and seemed comfortable in doing so. I'm surprised a team like Clermont couldn't. Maybe Leinster have a bit of a duck over them.

Where's the arrogance in the Irish heineken cup finalists put 40 points past Leicester? Hehe.

Sheesh you make out like we had a first team there . Nah we were well beaten on that night. Shame really as our form didn't really come together until March time and by then it was to late. Wouldn't mind another crack at Ulster (outside of the friendly in a fortnight) the fans were a good crack and I'd like to see us go to Ravenhill without the injuries to see just how good we could be.

Yep. I was extremely shocked to see a Leicester team lose by that much. Ulster are getting better and better. You ain't bad though, ask Beshocked. He says you'll put 60 points on the Ospreys at Welford Rd.

The balance of power will shift somewhere else. Probably soon. And probably to the very wealthy French. And all the people who can't stomach Irish success can dance with joy when it happens.

It's not really Irish success, it's Leinster success. Ulster and Munster are still very good sides, sides that should be pushing for silverware in the coming season, but there are another half-dozen sides in Europe that can match them too.

Right now Leinster are out in front and then there are a good few teams in a chasing pack who are pretty much equivalent.

I believe that Connaught* are being severely underestimated in the iconography of the Provinces' experience.
Clearly sweeping away all before them, the Irish generals will make swathes through Europe. All hail Alexander O'Great.

* (my mistake)

Bloody hell, are we never going to be allowed to forget losing to the Irish weather (and some Connacht players)?

I agree with the op though, Irish are well out in front (until Exeter put their golden boys back in their place next season).

Portnoy wrote:I believe that Connaught* are being severely underestimated in the iconography of the Provinces' experience.
Clearly sweeping away all before them, the Irish generals will make swathes through Europe. All hail Alexander O'Great.

* (my mistake)

I say you sit at your computer and laugh at your own jokes while you type them.

Morgannwg wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Leinster are out in front of everyone else at the minute but they do look beatable without an experienced enforcer in the second row. That might tell over the next season or so as will the aging of BOD and D'Arcy. Happens to all great teams. It happened with Leicester (possibly the greatest club pack of the pro era), Munster (Thomond Park used to be a place of dread for opposing fans) and, Tolouse.

Things don't stay the same they'll change. Can't blame the Leinster boys for enjoying themselves at the minute they are only the second team to defend a HEC and they are the best team in Europe as it stands..

Not many teams beat Leinster last season. They beat all Irish opposition, I can't remember them losing a game in Europe. Ospreys beat them by winning the scrums and collisions and seemed comfortable in doing so. I'm surprised a team like Clermont couldn't. Maybe Leinster have a bit of a duck over them.

Where's the arrogance in the Irish heineken cup finalists put 40 points past Leicester? Hehe.

Sheesh you make out like we had a first team there . Nah we were well beaten on that night. Shame really as our form didn't really come together until March time and by then it was to late. Wouldn't mind another crack at Ulster (outside of the friendly in a fortnight) the fans were a good crack and I'd like to see us go to Ravenhill without the injuries to see just how good we could be.

Yep. I was extremely shocked to see a Leicester team lose by that much. Ulster are getting better and better. You ain't bad though, ask Beshocked. He says you'll put 60 points on the Ospreys at Welford Rd.

We didn't, in fact we haven't lost a game since December 2010, a cup record. :smug face:

I agree with Notch Leinster, are a cut above, Ulster and Munster are in the chasing pack, along with the likes of Leicester, Ospreys, Toulouse, Clermot, Sarries.

Having 3 good teams out of 4 isn't bad, when one is the best and the 4th is not as bad as people make out. Connacht have a chance of the knock outs in my opinion (really).

By good team I mean a realistic chance of winning the H Cup.

But England and France have four out of six, good teams each, Wales one from three, not sure if Scotland have 2 or zero, Italy zero.

But they do have teams that may have a realistic chance of winning it, they do have teams that can go far.

Yep. I was extremely shocked to see a Leicester team lose by that much. Ulster are getting better and better. You ain't bad though, ask Beshocked. He says you'll put 60 points on the Ospreys at Welford Rd.

We did draw with Ospreys when missing a backline at Welford Rd last time. I think Beshocked is basing his prediction on the two Sarries wins against the Ospreys and the fact that Tigers tend to score more tries than the Sarries so the home leg could see a big victory. However, there was a noticeable improvement in the Ospreys after they changed coaches so I'm not sure it'll be the same team this time round.

Hopefully Tigers will be less relient on having certain key players fit this season, that was key to our failures last year. We really needed the likes of Deacon, Crane, Youngs and Flood for the big games. Hopefully this season Slater, Waldrom, Harrison and Ford will all be better equipped to step up.

We didn't, in fact we haven't lost a game since December 2010, a cup record.

Outside of a shock HEC away game loss in the group stages I can't see you losing until late on if at all next season Mickado. Though, I think you may struggle a little more with no Thorn to bolster the engine room, that aside you still have the best team in the competition.

Yeah Leinster are miles ahead of the other provinces in all seriousness. Ulster and Munster are very good sides but when people talk about the success of the provinces it really is about Leinster right now. They are the best in Europe for my mind but will find it hard in Europe this year I think.

Munster were totally demolished by Ospreys in the Rabo SF and haven't mounted a serious European challenge since 2008.

Ulster had a fantastic run in Europe last season but fell well short in the final and although things look very positive we still have to end a 7 year trophy drought.

Munster and Ulster wouldn't really be above the top English and French teams or even the Ospreys who are my dark horses for next season.

Hopefully all the provinces will have great seasons but I think last year will be hard to top.

Totally agree with Portnoy here. However, surely Leicester aren't in the mere mortal category? I'd place them at Demi-God level at least

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yep. I was extremely shocked to see a Leicester team lose by that much. Ulster are getting better and better. You ain't bad though, ask Beshocked. He says you'll put 60 points on the Ospreys at Welford Rd.

We did draw with Ospreys when missing a backline at Welford Rd last time. I think Beshocked is basing his prediction on the two Sarries wins against the Ospreys and the fact that Tigers tend to score more tries than the Sarries so the home leg could see a big victory. However, there was a noticeable improvement in the Ospreys after they changed coaches so I'm not sure it'll be the same team this time round.

Hopefully Tigers will be less relient on having certain key players fit this season, that was key to our failures last year. We really needed the likes of Deacon, Crane, Youngs and Flood for the big games. Hopefully this season Slater, Waldrom, Harrison and Ford will all be better equipped to step up.

We didn't, in fact we haven't lost a game since December 2010, a cup record.

Outside of a shock HEC away game loss in the group stages I can't see you losing until late on if at all next season Mickado. Though, I think you may struggle a little more with no Thorn to bolster the engine room, that aside you still have the best team in the competition.

We play Clermont away in round 3 this year. If we win there, we'd be the first team to do so in a LOOOOOOONG time.

We nearly had Clermont away last season. A dodgey try (clear double movement) and a brace of yellow cards did for our challenge though. It'll be a tough game but Clermont struggle to get into games if you can get an early try and silence the crowd a bit. Take out their 9 (Jennings man marking job?) and their game plan goes out the window.

I hope for your sake you boys send a first team down to Sandy Park though, those Chiefs are a real pain in the backside considering they are supposed to be a 'small team'. A packed ground and a team with good set pieces and a well drilled attack and defence they aren't to be taken lightly.

Ulster also came very close to beating Clermont in France. A crazy moment at the end of the match saw a scrum in their 22 to Ulster reversed to a penalty to Clermont for back chat. We were also attacking the Clermont 22 for most of the last 15 minutes.

Beating them at home is not impossible, but we'll have to be on top of our game. I'd say probably our best 80 min performance of the 10/11 season came in our loss to them, so we're really going to have to play to our potential. I think beating them in Bordeaux will give us an advantage too.

Cheifs and Scarlets not to be taken lightly either. Can't wait for the HC to start again.

Mickado wrote:Cheifs and Scarlets not to be taken lightly either. Can't wait for the HC to start again.

But that is one thing that Leinster do seem to do well, at least in the HEC, they don't really seem to take any challenge lightly and seem to throw their very bet at a side whether it be Clearmont, Ospreys, Leicester or Treviso, Zebre, or any other supposed nobodies. I remember a few seasons ago Leinster put something stupid like 100pts on us over the double header (and we were pool leaders going into that match).

It's a myth that Leinster play their same best 15 in every HC match. They rotate a lot depending on the opposition. Especially with the pack. And they do rest players at HC weekends too. Like against Montpellier this year.

Doesn't make the HC a mickey mouse competition though.

One of Leinsters main strengths is their ability to rotate but maintain the same fluency in their attacking and defensive patterns.

That shows their strength in depth and team spirit but also the quality of coaching they have down there.

For me that is a major reason why they the top team right now. No other side has the same squad ethic or capacity to rotate without a big drop off in quality.

I think its pretty phenomenal what Joe Schmidt has done and the enviroment he has created. As an Ulster fan I am pretty jealous but as an Irish fan it makes me excited to see the levels Irish players can perform to with the right infrastructure and coaching.

Yeah got to agree there Rodders. As a Tigers fan it annoys me a lot we can't rotate as well as we used to. It is the key to Leinster's strength that they can bring in almost another 15 players of quality in either the Rabo or the HEC so that the key men are in top shape for the big games.

Maybe this season we'll see more teams try and emulate Leinster with the careful management of key players. Well I certainly hope Cockers does anyway, allowing our 10 to get injured in a meaningless game against Bath was not a good idea.

Rodders - you worded what I was trying to get at.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Mickado wrote:Cheifs and Scarlets not to be taken lightly either. Can't wait for the HC to start again.

But that is one thing that Leinster do seem to do well, at least in the HEC, they don't really seem to take any challenge lightly and seem to throw their very bet at a side whether it be Clearmont, Ospreys, Leicester or Treviso, Zebre, or any other supposed nobodies. I remember a few seasons ago Leinster put something stupid like 100pts on us over the double header (and we were pool leaders going into that match).

Ah it was only 71 not 100.

In other news......

My take is that the older and more prestigious your league is the less you prioritise the HC.

Bar Clermont and Toulouse the French are not that pushed.

The English are much more pushed but will happily take the premiership instead.

The Rabboites are much more interested in the HC (perhaps baring Italy. Not sure)

Even in recent times it has changed. Back when Munster were winning HCs (and the league was very new) Munster fans would not have given you tuppence for a Magners title it was all about the HC.

While it still is the pinnacle, Ospreys fans must be proud of their achievements in the Magners/Rabo, and losing 3 finals in a row rankles seriously with Leinster fans, despite the HC wins. (though we obviously would not swap)
As time passes and standards rise (officiating, fixtures, general running of the comp, tv revenues etc.) the Rabo will be much more important

The Scarlets were quite weak back then. I hope they are a different team this time around and beat Leinster once at least.

Morgannwg wrote:The Scarlets were quite weak back then. I hope they are a different team this time around and beat Leinster once at least.

Jaysus don't say that. If Leinster lose to the Scarlets They will have to do the double over Clermont to qualify.

Round 2 is the Scarlets best chance. I have the Stradey Park hotel booked for 2 nights that weekend, so I obviously hope the Scarlets don't turn us over.

They will get a bit of practise in on the 1st of September. Leinster have only one the 1st game of the season once in the last 10 years. (or maybe it's 8 years)

Can they take that instead?

Only Leinster can claim to be the best really, and only in Europe. Ulster had a great year (in the HEC at least) but need to be more consistent, and I don't know what Munster will be like next season. It could go either way I think. Hopefully Connacht can exceed expectations in the HEC next year. They have a few very good players now.

I am predicting the Ospreys to be HEC finalists next season. They are just a really good team.

Throroughly loving how the irish provinces are not just beating the aviva sides but making them look second rate.