The Irish provinces are the best. End of.

First topic message reminder :

Wum alert
Nobody can any longer compete with the massive tide (dare I say tsunami) of success.
We (non-Irish) mere mortals have to brace ourselves to be overwhelmed by all four provinces to compete each of the HEC semis.

That's the way it is and that's the way it's always going to be,

If you look at the history of European rugby, Ireland were traditionally the worst of the old 5 nations. In the 90's even Italy kept beating us. The other countries just had a much stronger rugby culture. The game was barely on the Irish radar and only played by a tiny minority. There was actually a bit of stigma attached to it as a "garrison game".

But the last 10 years have shown a huge improvement in Irish rugby and a big surge in popularity. I don't think the Irish grip on the Heineken Cup is permanent. But I do think the advance in Irish rugby from a very low position is a permanent advance and it will never go back to the way it was.

A Leinster v Munster inter pro used to get a few hundred spectators. In 2009 they met in a HC semi and they drew 82,000 spectators. And if there was a bigger stadium in Ireland more would have attended. I can't imagine it going back to the way it was.

Feckless Rogue wrote:If you look at the history of European rugby, Ireland were traditionally the worst of the old 5 nations. In the 90's even Italy kept beating us. The other countries just had a much stronger rugby culture. The game was barely on the Irish radar and only played by a tiny minority. There was actually a bit of stigma attached to it as a "garrison game".

But the last 10 years have shown a huge improvement in Irish rugby and a big surge in popularity. I don't think the Irish grip on the Heineken Cup is permanent. But I do think the advance in Irish rugby from a very low position is a permanent advance and it will never go back to the way it was.

Well put. Lets hope other countries like Russia, Spain and Georgia can develop in a similar way. The more competitive countries there are the better.

profitius wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:If you look at the history of European rugby, Ireland were traditionally the worst of the old 5 nations. In the 90's even Italy kept beating us. The other countries just had a much stronger rugby culture. The game was barely on the Irish radar and only played by a tiny minority. There was actually a bit of stigma attached to it as a "garrison game".

But the last 10 years have shown a huge improvement in Irish rugby and a big surge in popularity. I don't think the Irish grip on the Heineken Cup is permanent. But I do think the advance in Irish rugby from a very low position is a permanent advance and it will never go back to the way it was.

Well put. Lets hope other countries like Russia, Spain and Georgia can develop in a similar way. The more competitive countries there are the better.

How popular is 15s rugby in spain. Im sure it gets little coverage because of the football and basketball

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

profitius wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:If you look at the history of European rugby, Ireland were traditionally the worst of the old 5 nations. In the 90's even Italy kept beating us. The other countries just had a much stronger rugby culture. The game was barely on the Irish radar and only played by a tiny minority. There was actually a bit of stigma attached to it as a "garrison game".

But the last 10 years have shown a huge improvement in Irish rugby and a big surge in popularity. I don't think the Irish grip on the Heineken Cup is permanent. But I do think the advance in Irish rugby from a very low position is a permanent advance and it will never go back to the way it was.

Well put. Lets hope other countries like Russia, Spain and Georgia can develop in a similar way. The more competitive countries there are the better.

How popular is 15s rugby in spain. Im sure it gets little coverage because of the football and basketball

I couldn't tell you to be honest.

One country making progress behind the scenes is Belgium. They've good underage teams and playing numbers are growing. The Saracens match in Belgium will help promote rugby too although I'm not sure how entertaining Saracens and Racing Metro will be.

profitius wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

profitius wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:If you look at the history of European rugby, Ireland were traditionally the worst of the old 5 nations. In the 90's even Italy kept beating us. The other countries just had a much stronger rugby culture. The game was barely on the Irish radar and only played by a tiny minority. There was actually a bit of stigma attached to it as a "garrison game".

But the last 10 years have shown a huge improvement in Irish rugby and a big surge in popularity. I don't think the Irish grip on the Heineken Cup is permanent. But I do think the advance in Irish rugby from a very low position is a permanent advance and it will never go back to the way it was.

Well put. Lets hope other countries like Russia, Spain and Georgia can develop in a similar way. The more competitive countries there are the better.

How popular is 15s rugby in spain. Im sure it gets little coverage because of the football and basketball

I couldn't tell you to be honest.

One country making progress behind the scenes is Belgium. They've good underage teams and playing numbers are growing. The Saracens match in Belgium will help promote rugby too although I'm not sure how entertaining Saracens and Racing Metro will be.

I am actually looking forward to that game. It will be interesting to see how many sarrie fans will travel to it

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yep. I was extremely shocked to see a Leicester team lose by that much. Ulster are getting better and better. You ain't bad though, ask Beshocked. He says you'll put 60 points on the Ospreys at Welford Rd.

We did draw with Ospreys when missing a backline at Welford Rd last time. I think Beshocked is basing his prediction on the two Sarries wins against the Ospreys and the fact that Tigers tend to score more tries than the Sarries so the home leg could see a big victory. However, there was a noticeable improvement in the Ospreys after they changed coaches so I'm not sure it'll be the same team this time round.

Hopefully Tigers will be less relient on having certain key players fit this season, that was key to our failures last year. We really needed the likes of Deacon, Crane, Youngs and Flood for the big games. Hopefully this season Slater, Waldrom, Harrison and Ford will all be better equipped to step up.

We didn't, in fact we haven't lost a game since December 2010, a cup record.

Outside of a shock HEC away game loss in the group stages I can't see you losing until late on if at all next season Mickado. Though, I think you may struggle a little more with no Thorn to bolster the engine room, that aside you still have the best team in the competition.

No Sam I didn't base my prediction on Sarries' wins vs Ospreys. Ospreys do better against Leicester than they do against Sarries. I was basing it on the amount of tries Leicester score.

Also partly basing it on the HC too - Biarritz got the try bonus win vs Ospreys and Saracens almost did. By that logic so could Leicester. Realistically it should be a tight game but I just have a gut feeling Tigers will be looking for Ospreys blood.

I didn't say I thought Ospreys would lose by 60 points. I said I thought Leicester would get a try bonus win - basically scoring 4 tries and winning. It's likely I will be wrong but who knows?

Ospreys' defence in the HC was poor but very good in the Pro12. Depends which defence turns up.



Back onto topic - the Irish sides are looking very good. Fingers crossed us English clubs can overturn our poor records vs the Irish.

The English-Irish clashes are Saracens - Munster, Northampton - Ulster, Harlequins -Connacht, Exeter - Leinster.

Those will be interesting games, particularly Saints vs Ulster where Ulster will be desperate for revenge after the semi final mauling they took a couple of years ago. Quins will want to make sure they put Connacht back in place, a let's face it freak loss in the middle of a storm cost them last season. I don't think Quins will be caught out like that again.

Sam Quins better not be caught out again. The Quins fans will never hear the end of it if Connacht prevail once again. Realistically Quins should do the double this time though.

Saints are under the radar at the moment, a HC campaign to forget last season and bowing out in the AP playoffs again. In comparison Ulster will be buoyed by their excellent HC run and supposedly the greatest scrum in Europe (according to their fans). You would fancy Ulster to win this battle but you never know with Saints. They might come of age this season.

Saracens vs Munster - too close to call. Realistically 1 win apiece but my heart says that Saracens will go away and win. Maybe wishful thinking?

Exeter vs Leinster - Leinster should be too strong.

beshocked wrote:Saints are under the radar at the moment, a HC campaign to forget last season and bowing out in the AP playoffs again. In comparison Ulster will be buoyed by their excellent HC run and supposedly the greatest scrum in Europe (according to their fans). You would fancy Ulster to win this battle but you never know with Saints. They might come of age this season.

I don't think we have the greatest scrum in Europe. I'm happy with our pack though and think it is one of the stronger ones out there. They'll be severely tested by Saints though who probably have a bigger claim to having the best scrum around.

I think that group will be tight enough.

Rodders, Saints lost a lot of their scrum power last season. They really struggled at times and lost their AP playoff to a rolling maul, I never thought that Saints pack would get driven over their own line. A poor season marred by call ups and injuries for the Saints, they ended up only just scraping into the playoffs and had the humiliation of their arch rivals giving them a proper kicking at the Gardens.

Mallinder has made some astute signings this season but none of them are in the tight five and the average options at 10 remain. The loss of the experienced Wilson and Downey will hurt as well. Should be interesting to see how the bounce back as right now they are a little bit unknown.

Yeah Saints struggled last season but they would still be a team that I'd fear and respect. Really looking forward to next season though and think we are looking stronger than last year overall. Certainly the backline looks better with Bowe and Payne there.

I'd say Ospreys would have a decent claim to having the strongest scrum, Clermont too. Tigers are strong there too as are most of the French sides. I think we are thereabouts but not the best. That's a big claim to make (I'm not sure who did).

I'm happy with Tigers props, in terms of squad depth of props we probably have the best going (Castro, Cole, Brookes at tighthead with Ayerza, Mulipola and Stanovitch at loosehead) but it will depend on what happens with our second row and at hooker. You Ulster boys saw how you could out power us when the likes of Deacon were injured, hopefully a fully fit Louis with Slater and the new Bok Andrew should fix that. Hooker remains a worry with Chuter fading, a lot riding on Tom Youngs (who missed 4 months of last season with a back injury, including most of the HEC) and with Hawkins out for a while we could be quickly in trouble and down to 21 year old Stevens if we have an injury or two.

As I've said before the Clermont scrum is overrated, Tigers shoved it all over the place in France and were on top by a smaller margin at WR. The Ospreys scrum seemed to get on top of Sarries at the set piece in the HEC which isn't impressive as Sarries scrum is not up to much (though they are striving to improve it) but they seemed to improve as the season went on. On paper they have a good pack so it will be interesting to see how that one goes.

In terms of the scrum (as in any unit of play) the whole shebang can come off the rails if a key component is unavailable. As Sam rightly points out, whereas no-one wants to lose any of their best players, unfortunately it is most likely at some point they will lose one or more. That is why Cockers has built depth as deep as the wage cap will allow.

I'm desperately sorry to have lost 36 in that respect. Age gets all players at some stage. But Glaws got Billy barely before he's out of the academy.

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:Saints are under the radar at the moment, a HC campaign to forget last season and bowing out in the AP playoffs again. In comparison Ulster will be buoyed by their excellent HC run and supposedly the greatest scrum in Europe (according to their fans). You would fancy Ulster to win this battle but you never know with Saints. They might come of age this season.

I don't think we have the greatest scrum in Europe. I'm happy with our pack though and think it is one of the stronger ones out there. They'll be severely tested by Saints though who probably have a bigger claim to having the best scrum around.

I think that group will be tight enough.

Where-as Saracens should be buoyed by being the greatest team in Europe (according to their fans, well; just the single fan).

Bit harsh Morg, especially as he spent most of the second half of last season chastising the coaches for being to conservative.

If Sarries can get some flankers fit and healthy they will be a side to cause problems (particularly with a new backs coach who believes in passing the ball further than the nearest kicker). They also love playing away from home so the old standard 'home advantage' doesn't always hold true.

Rodders it was on the rate your team thread.Ulster do have a good scrum but it's obviously very subjective.

Very true Sam.

Morgannwg when have I ever said Saracens are the greatest side in Europe? I thought we would do well in the HC last season admittedly but I was proved wrong.

In my opinion Clermont and Leinster are clearly the top two currently. Below them are the likes of Ulster,Ospreys,Leicester,Saracens,Quins,Toulouse,Munster,Northampton, Toulon who are all of in a similar boat. Though some sides obviously perform better against certain ones.

Look at the ratings of respective fans in the rate your team thread.

Anyway back onto topic. How do you Irish think you'll do in the HC?

No idea Beshocked. You have to look at the teams in isolation. Four different sides, at different levels with different styles of play.

Leinster have been the gold standard in Europe for the last couple of seasons but they have a tough pool and a few aging stars. They will miss Brad Thorn too. They are capable of winning again but it will be tougher than last time I think.

Ulster are stronger than last year in my opinion and have an easier pool, no disrespect to anyone intended but last years was a bollix. I would hope to reach the KO stages again and then we'll see. A SF is a realistic target but that will be tough.

Munster probably something similar. They've the new coaching team in so that will give them fresh ideas and they did well last year considering the injuries. I think much will depend if they can get a good midfield and backrow combinations. With guys like Ryan, POM and O'Connell there they'll give it everything but I think the way they were demolished by the Ospreys will worry them.

If Connacht can pick up a couple of wins in the group stages then that would be a good return. Maybe staying unbeaten in Galway would be a realistic target. They are getting better every season but just don't have the resources of most sides at this level.

Getting a team in the final would be great, especially with it in Dublin but repeating or bettering last years efforts would be a big ask.

Go on rodders stick your neck out. If you had to predict now (of course things will change) what would you say?

beshocked wrote:

Saints are under the radar at the moment, a HC campaign to forget last season and bowing out in the AP playoffs again. In comparison Ulster will be buoyed by their excellent HC run and supposedly the greatest scrum in Europe (according to their fans).

According to one fan, not Ulster fans in general. I said it was potentially the best scrum in Europe and on a par with any other team and given that we matched Clermont's scrum and bettered Leicester Tigers I think its a fair statement. But you're twisting it a bit.

They are capable of winning again but it will be tougher than last time I think.

Final's in Dublin

Leinster have been the gold standard in Europe for the last couple of seasons but they have a tough pool and a few aging stars.

You mean Drico? We did all right with him missing most of last season.. so you must mean Darcy...

All teams have one or 2 32+ players. It's a bit of a red herring TBH...

..but again it's a red herring often trotted out regarding Irish teams..

3 on the bounce will be tough though..

Duig I mean BOD, D'arcy, Cullen, Ross and Jennings. All key players and all 1 year older. Nacewa is also 30+ and even Heaslip has a few question marks as to whether he is on the wane. Thats a 3rd of the Heino squad.

I'm well aware of the younger talent Leinster have but I would wonder how long some of the above can keep performing at this level, to the standard they have.

Can they go to the well once more? Probably yes but they can't go on forever and at some stage soon Leinster will need to rebuild.

beshocked wrote:Go on rodders stick your neck out. If you had to predict now (of course things will change) what would you say?

Connacht: Group.
Munster: QF
Leinster: SF
Ulster:.....Winners.... ....

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:Go on rodders stick your neck out. If you had to predict now (of course things will change) what would you say?

Connacht: Group.
Munster: QF
Leinster: SF
Ulster:.....Winners.... ....

Fair play

C'mon Rodders... Jenno is hardly 1st choice any more and Ross is a TH prop !!!

Heaslip is under 30 too, so I dont know where that's coming from (he didnt appear on the wane when he had Wanndenburg in his pocket on final day last year..

Cullens been nakcered for years and I'd say he'll lose his place this year. Ditto Darce.

I think it all four provinces have a realistic chance of making the knock out stages.

Ulster Munster and Leinster are prob favourites to top their groups, but Connacht could be the dark horses for the knock outs.

In Harlequins they have a team they have already beaten, and won't have the fear factor that they would have had if meeting Tigers or Saracens. Harlequins are a very good team, but Connacht know if they give it their all against them, they can win.
Biarritz could be argued to be the weakest French side in it, having finished 9th in the Top14.
In Zebre, I see 6 losses for them, but importantly it means that a best runner up is likley to come from this group, and I think Connacht could sneak it.

Of course they may do the expected, and only win 2 games. but the group counldn't have been better for them if they had hand picked it,

Also I'm the fan that highly rated Ulsters scrum, I said at the time that I don't think there is a team in europe, that will be able to boss it. There may be an off game now and again (every scrum does) but overall it will be on par with the best in Europe. It may not push the best off the ball bu likewise the best won't push it off the ball either.

I agree Kingshu - I also said I thought it was potentially the best in Europe and on a par with any other team in the rate your team thread - I really hope to see more of McAllister at loosehead next season and Macklin and Fitzpatrick at tighthead, I think even when our first choice props at the minute go we will have an excellent scrum. I agree with the above comments about how good the Ospreys and Clermont's scrum is though.

Duig Jenno and Cullen are still key men. Massive players even if they don't do the 80min so much now. Dom Ryan and Toner really need to step up this year.

Heaslip is still a class act but his pace isn't what it was and neither is his consistancy. He's only 28 but Leamy had a similar early decline due to injury. I'm not writing him off but he hasn't been at his best in a while.

In some areas Leinster will be stronger with the likes of Ryan, Madigan, O'Malley and K2 a year older but I can't help feeling that your second row and perhaps midfield will not be quite as strong as last season.

That said I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Leinster pick up their 4th title.

Kingshu if you genuinely believe Connacht will qualify then put some money on it. If they pull off the improbable you'll be laughing your way to the bank.

They'll likely need 4 wins to qualify. That's a big ask.

Don't write off Biarritz. I always say that because they look poor but always seem to wriggle out of trouble and perform well in Europe. Also they are Amlin winners.

I don't know if Connacht will qualify, but they do have the best chance they are going to get for years to come, its a now or never.

I can't see odds for qualifiy, only group winner 50/1 which I don't think they will do.

Intresting thing is on Paddy Power, Saints are favourites for Ulsters group and Sacacens for Munsters. I though with the weight of Irish money lowing the Provinces odds on PP that both Munster and Ulster would be favs there!

Kingshu to me it's not surprising. I think those two English clubs will push the two Irish clubs all the way.

If Quins can beat Munster away and Saints can almost do it then the English side with the best away record are certainly capable of that feat.

We know Saints can beat Ulster.

I am very much looking forward to those two Anglo-Irish encounters.

Kingshu wrote:I think it all four provinces have a realistic chance of making the knock out stages.

Ulster Munster and Leinster are prob favourites to top their groups, but Connacht could be the dark horses for the knock outs.

In Harlequins they have a team they have already beaten, and won't have the fear factor that they would have had if meeting Tigers or Saracens. Harlequins are a very good team, but Connacht know if they give it their all against them, they can win.
Biarritz could be argued to be the weakest French side in it, having finished 9th in the Top14.
In Zebre, I see 6 losses for them, but importantly it means that a best runner up is likley to come from this group, and I think Connacht could sneak it.

Of course they may do the expected, and only win 2 games. but the group counldn't have been better for them if they had hand picked it,

Also I'm the fan that highly rated Ulsters scrum, I said at the time that I don't think there is a team in europe, that will be able to boss it. There may be an off game now and again (every scrum does) but overall it will be on par with the best in Europe. It may not push the best off the ball bu likewise the best won't push it off the ball either.

And there's a crock of gold at the end of every rainbow.
In Harlequins they have a team they have already beaten - in freak weather and 'unusual' refereeing conditions
Biarritz could be argued to be the weakest French side in it, having finished 9th in the Top14 - Connacht finished 8th in a league of 12 which inclues two Italian sides.
In Zebre, I see 6 losses for them, but importantly it means that a best runner up is likley to come from this group, and I think Connacht could sneak it. - I can imagine one win for Zebre

Connacht beat the English champions and out comes to old "it was the weather and the ref" excuses - classic, bloody hilarious.

My God it's like groundhog day on 'ere every year innit??

...until the inevitable happens and either Tigers or Sarries get through

in freak weather and 'unusual' refereeing conditions

Blaming the ref AND the weather..... tut tut tut.....

Artful_Dodger wrote:Connacht beat the English champions and out comes to old "it was the weather and the ref" excuses - classic, bloody hilarious.

To be expected.... true to form...

I think of the four provinces only Ulster and Leinster will get out of the groups.

I really don't think Connacht will make it out. Quins will be on a revenge mission and Biarritz, assuming Yachvili and Harinordiquy are fit, will be much better than last season. I can't see Connacht getting anything at Quins or at Biarritz, and I can't see Quins slipping up in Galway as they did last time, not with a point to prove. That means Connacht will need to beat Biarritz in Galways, and get maximums against Zebre in both games. Sorry, can't see it.

Munster have a rough group as well. Sarries will make it very tough and Edinburgh have proven to be a strong contender in knock-out matches. The supposed "easy" game is Racing Metro. Good luck with that. I think only one side will come out of that group, with everyone beating everyone. Think it'll be tough for Munster.

Leinster will qualify, too much class in the backs and back row, and I think Ulster will have a strong season (plus not a hugely tricky group).

You also don't mention that Connacht pushed Harlequins very close, in the Scoop, in normal weather and reffing conditions.

Anyway whats wrong with the weather, Connacht are used to wind and rain in Galway, it is home advantage, and every team that visits there gets terrible weather.

Duigers wrote:My God it's like groundhog day on 'ere every year innit??

...until the inevitable happens and either Tigers or Sarries get through

in freak weather and 'unusual' refereeing conditions

Blaming the ref AND the weather..... tut tut tut.....

Any problems with the weather and the ref's peculiar decisions?

I saw that game. And I know what I saw. The weather was horrendous and the ref was to say the least generous in his interpretation of the laws. The referee: the inestimable Nigel Owens. censored:

I don't think Edinburgh have really proven to be a strong contender in knock-out matches on the basis that they won one knockout match in a record crowd at Murrayfield last season. Plus last season Edinburgh had a very easy group, Cardiff Blues and London Irish were both rubbish. I agree that only one team will come out though, think its between Munster and Saracens.

Portnoy wrote:

Duigers wrote:My God it's like groundhog day on 'ere every year innit??

...until the inevitable happens and either Tigers or Sarries get through

in freak weather and 'unusual' refereeing conditions

Blaming the ref AND the weather..... tut tut tut.....

Any problems with the weather and the ref's peculiar decisions?

I saw that game. And I know what I saw. The weather was horrendous and the ref was to say the least generous in his interpretation of the laws. The referee: the inestimable Nigel Owens. censored:

Nigel Owens the best ref in Europe by a country mile? Why don't you be a man and take Connacht beating the English champs on the chin instead of coming up with ridiculous excuses.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

Duigers wrote:My God it's like groundhog day on 'ere every year innit??

...until the inevitable happens and either Tigers or Sarries get through

in freak weather and 'unusual' refereeing conditions

Blaming the ref AND the weather..... tut tut tut.....

Any problems with the weather and the ref's peculiar decisions?

I saw that game. And I know what I saw. The weather was horrendous and the ref was to say the least generous in his interpretation of the laws. The referee: the inestimable Nigel Owens. censored:

Nigel Owens the best ref in Europe by a country mile? Why don't you be a man and take Connacht beating the English champs on the chin instead of coming up with ridiculous excuses.

But Connacht finished so low in the Rabo, and beat the Jeff Champs, because they wer targetting the Glaws and Quins in the HEC< and rested tehir best players for the rest of the season, and only fielded them for those games.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

Duigers wrote:My God it's like groundhog day on 'ere every year innit??

...until the inevitable happens and either Tigers or Sarries get through

in freak weather and 'unusual' refereeing conditions

Blaming the ref AND the weather..... tut tut tut.....

Any problems with the weather and the ref's peculiar decisions?

I saw that game. And I know what I saw. The weather was horrendous and the ref was to say the least generous in his interpretation of the laws. The referee: the inestimable Nigel Owens. censored:

Nigel Owens the best ref in Europe by a country mile? Why don't you be a man and take Connacht beating the English champs on the chin instead of coming up with ridiculous excuses.

Nature of the beast, "innit"?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

Duigers wrote:My God it's like groundhog day on 'ere every year innit??

...until the inevitable happens and either Tigers or Sarries get through

in freak weather and 'unusual' refereeing conditions

Blaming the ref AND the weather..... tut tut tut.....

Any problems with the weather and the ref's peculiar decisions?

I saw that game. And I know what I saw. The weather was horrendous and the ref was to say the least generous in his interpretation of the laws. The referee: the inestimable Nigel Owens. censored:

Nigel Owens the best ref in Europe by a country mile? Why don't you be a man and take Connacht beating the English champs on the chin instead of coming up with ridiculous excuses.

But Connacht finished so low in the Rabo, and beat the Jeff Champs, because they wer targetting the Glaws and Quins in the HEC< and rested tehir best players for the rest of the season, and only fielded them for those games.

Not true, Connacht aren't able to rest players and if they did they wouldn't of finished 8th in the Rabo. They rotate very little cause they dont have the squad to rotate with thus they play their strongest team in the Rabo. The idea that Connacht were resting players in the Rabo so they could win a couple of HC matches is laughable.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I don't think Edinburgh have really proven to be a strong contender in knock-out matches on the basis that they won one knockout match in a record crowd at Murrayfield last season. Plus last season Edinburgh had a very easy group, Cardiff Blues and London Irish were both rubbish. I agree that only one team will come out though, think its between Munster and Saracens.

I'm not expecting Edinburgh to qualify from that group either. My point was though that Edinburgh are certainly capable of a level of performance sufficiently high to trouble any side in Europe. They demonstrated that last season. Yes, it wasn't the hardest group, but beating Racing and LI both home and away, as well as Toulouse at home, suggests that Edinburgh are not a side that Munster, hardly a mighty force last season, can expect to beat at Murrayfield. Edinburgh will be stronger this season as well, particularly in the front five with the acquisitions of Nel and VDW at prop and lock respectively.

A few years back I would expect Edinburgh to lose home and away to Munster. Whilst I think Thomond will be too much, I'd personally back us to beat Munster at Murrayfield.

It is a group where any team can beat any team. There are no banker fixtures. In my experience of following the HC that means that only one side will progress. My money would be on Sarries personally, but behind Sarries I think it's pretty even.

Would this be the appropriate time for me to air my theory that Ulster lost to Saints in 2011 because it was a bit too hot and sunny for our lads?

Ok...maybe not, forget I mentioned it....

Connacht dont rotate their players much because they dont have to worrie about international call ups. So the whole they can rest players for HC arguement is bs.

I watched that Connacht vs Quins game live on TV. Looked to me very much like a classic case of Quins, the better side on paper without question, being out thought and out fought on the day by an experienced and wily group of committed players.

Of course the conditions played a role, as they do in every rugby match. Connacht played them far better though, and won pretty much every 50/50 scrap for the ball.

There is no debate as to which side is the better team on paper, or which side would be the bookies favourite were the sides to meet again, but as a Scot I have plenty time for the team with the right game plan on the day and that little bit of extra fight.

Dodger & LenstierFan4Life - I was yanking your chain mate. Connacht are under-estimated by the non Rabo sides. We have learnt to have a very intense dislike for away games at the Sportsground. I was having a joke at the fact if a 'poor' Rabo side does well it is down to resting players.

EDIT - I didn't expect such a bite from either of you, of course it was laughable, I thought it was pretty obviously a leg-pull.

Nigel Owens the best ref in Europe by a country mile?

Not if you're English.

To be fair he was his normal dodgey self in terms of reffing but the storm that hit Galway that night did for Quins. Connacht had little to do with it to be honest. The Quins offloading and running game faltering and died, they just didn't have the experience to deal with those conditions. Quins are a good side but they are beatable with clear weaknesses, the lack of detailed tactical kicking game plan is one of those as is the reliance on Nick Evans to convert their pressure to points.

Would this be the appropriate time for me to air my theory that Ulster lost to Saints in 2011 because it was a bit too hot and sunny for our lads?

Ulster lost because the Saints pack was in the form of their lives and to big for Ulster to be able to bully. That Saints team were in magical form that season it just came together nicely for them. The losses against Tigers in the AP semi final and Leinster in the final were close run things which turned on small margins.

FES and Artful Dodger I would agree with both of you.

Edinburgh will psychologically benefit from having done the double over Racing Metro. They have shown they can play at a high level - beating Toulouse is no mean feat. There's question marks over their defence and their consistency but maybe these can be ironed out.

Pool 1 is a tough old group. It's good that way because there'll be no complacency and strangely enough less pressure.

In comparison Quins will have a lot of pressure on them. They've got the easiest group on paper. They are the English champs - everyone will be gunning for them. As already mentioned Connacht won't be in awe of them.

Biarritz are very tough to beat in Biarritz - I read somewhere they've only lost 3 matches at home in the HC. Might be wrong though.