Tom Wood To Be Fit For Start

First topic message reminder :

Jim Mallinder reports that Tom Wood will be fit to start the season, and that Courtney Lawes has dislocated his elbow and probably won't be back until October.

Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19162782

Good news for Wood and England there, it's possible he may force his way into the starting line-up for the AI's given Lancaster holds him in such high regard, and was a shoo-in for Captain. Could Johnson miss out altogether?

With Lawes out for quite a while now, will he have enough time to demonstrate form and fitness for the AI's? If not are we going to be stuck with the usual cak we have in the SR?

But hows his ground work...thats the main role of a 7.

Tom Johnson anyone?! The incumbent blindside? Oh well ...

Decent, getting better

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Tom Johnson anyone?! The incumbent blindside? Oh well ...

Sorry, fine player but not in my top 5/6 frankly. May well prove me wrong these AIs as he will be starting or benching at least

Wallace is a cracking prospect, and he got some lovely turnovers in the 7s competition! Got a bright future, and hope he puts a real mark down this season.

ASBO, I'm a big fan of Tom Johnson, and thought he toured very very well over the summer! Just needs to ensure he gets the man down when he rushes the line.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Tom Johnson anyone?! The incumbent blindside? Oh well ...

He's played too much so is no longer flavour of the month, we'd much prefer to pin all our hopes on someone injured or inexperienced.

yappysnap wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Tom Johnson anyone?! The incumbent blindside? Oh well ...

He's played too much so is no longer flavour of the month, we'd much prefer to pin all our hopes on someone injured or inexperienced.

Johnson played blindingly well in the Barbarians game before he toured and I have to say I was pleased with most of his contributions in the Tests. His physicality in the tackle wasn't spectacular but aside from that he will either be starting or on the bench I would assume come the AI's.

I have huge respect for the lad but time is not on his side and at 30 he's not going to be making a telling contribution forever. Nothing wrong with reward for hard work but players like Tom Croft, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw and possibly Carl Fearns are the future for England and we need to start establishing a settled back row. At present only one man is nailed on.

If like to see tom Johnson carrying more in the next few games. Hes a very good runner and and actually could compliment Morgans bludgeoning runs very well. Sa was a learning curve for him...lets see if he can take it on another level to the game we see in the prem.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If like to see tom Johnson carrying more in the next few games. Hes a very good runner and and actually could compliment Morgans bludgeoning runs very well. Sa was a learning curve for him...lets see if he can take it on another level to the game we see in the prem.

Absolutely Geordie, he had some great following runs in the Tests. A couple off Morgan and another notable one in T3 from Palmer. He showed in the Barabrians game he can be very effective on second wave.

He commits himself to the charge down too, and pestered Steyn and Hougaard all day long.

Also some excellent turn-over work.

Well then I think we've found our No.6!

So far we're looking at: 6. T Johnson 7. C Robshaw 8.

As an aside how many players have we actually got that are nailed on? A core team from which to really build a world class side on, because that's what we need asap I feel.

Regardless of whether one prioritises the RWC or winning every test match, we need a core team from which to build on and really progress with. Without that we're always going to be in the 're-building' phase.

Players we should have in the starting team, but not necessarily completely nailed on for their position I have put on the bench.

1.
2.
3. D Cole
4.
5.
6. T Croft
7. C Robshaw
8.
9. B Youngs
10.
11. B Foden*
12.
13. M Tuilagi
14. C Ashton
15.

Bench: T Flood, J Marler, D Care, D Hartley, A Corbisiero

So far I don't think anyone else can claim to have really cemented their place in a team going forward in pursuit of a number 1 ranking. I don't feel Hartley is the long term option at hooker, at retains his place in the squad due to his experience.

Joe Marler did well on tour considering it was his first Test start/s but he can't be considered to have really nailed a place perhaps. Corbs less so, he's starting to look invaluable at times along with Chris Robshaw.

Any thoughts?

At the moment i think Hartley is nailed on starter CHj.

Yes there might be better coming through...but they're not there yet. Players like Youngs need to be starting for Leicester, Lindsay needs to make the Wasps spot his own likewise George at Sarries. Once they get there i think they will overtake Hartley...who just seems to have lost the aggression and ball carrying that he started out with.
The front row is not a problem at the moment either. Corbs is 1st choice in my eyes.

And Foden is 1st choice 15. I think the wing experiement was to cover the kicking threat from SA....

I'd say Flood is nailed on at the moment. The other 10s are either too inexperienced to challenge him (Heathcote, Ford) or in Farrell's case have a serious flaw in their development. The only 10 that could in theory come in at take the 10 shirt is Burns but I don't think he is seen as being reliable enough for international rugby.

If Ben Youngs is on form then there are not many scrum halves that can be compared to him, sadly he is not at that level of form consistently enough to guarentee him a starting berth. Then again he is only 22 and when actually fully fit is becomming more reliably excellent. Next season will be a big one for him.

And Foden is 1st choice 15. I think the wing experiement was to cover the kicking threat from SA....

I dunno GF I was really impressed by Alex Goode at full back, he gave us an extra dimension in attack which we really needed. Brown showed up well as well, I think it's game on for the back three positions.

I agree Geordie that Hartley is nailed on at present, but I really had that No.1 ranking challenge in my mind when noting down the team.

I can't see Hartley starting at hooker in a side no.1 in the rankings. The others I can. That's not to say they're all 'world class' but they have the attributes to my mind.

Corbs almost certainly first choice I would say, with Marler taking the bench but he hasn't been in enough tests for me to be certain he's nailed on at 1. going forward. He's probably closest to it though.

Foden has to be in the team somewhere, but I do like the potential for Goode to come into the line as a secondary FH and he's an intelligent player. I think Lancaster will stick with Foden on the wing if Goode is fit. He rates him a lot.

Most pressing issues for me, in terms of crucial positions on the field are: Hooker, Fly Half and Centre - if we can establish some real nailed on talent in those positions we've got half a chance. Until then I don't think we'll make the progress we all want.

Again agreed SAM that Flood is nailed on at present, but i'm really looking at the shaping of a no.1 side here and Flood at FH doesn't quite measure up for me. He's perfect at present and would certainly be in the squad but we need a bit more talent there I feel.

Also I think Burns wanted a little bit of guidance last season. I read a piece where he expressed a desire to have someone with real experience alongside him to learn from at Glaws.

This season he could kick on well after some really excellent performances against the likes of Tolouse last season. As you say he needs to develop consistency; but his tactical kicking, vision and passing are superb.

Chjw you might be waiting a year or two for Ford to make the step up then. He is currently the only conceivably world class 10 we have. There are some potentially good international 10s but he is the only one that may make the grade for 'world class'. Long way for him to go though, his place kicking in particular needs fine tuning, though that improved noticeably towards the end of last season.

Flood is a damn good 10 and really should be on the Lions Tour next year as back up to Sexton.

I see Alred is working with him now...

formerly known as Sam wrote:Chjw you might be waiting a year or two for Ford to make the step up then. He is currently the only conceivably world class 10 we have. There are some potentially good international 10s but he is the only one that may make the grade for 'world class'. Long way for him to go though, his place kicking in particular needs fine tuning, though that improved noticeably towards the end of last season.

Flood is a damn good 10 and really should be on the Lions Tour next year as back up to Sexton.

Possibly so, but I think we'll see Ford coming in a touch sooner than that. Lancaster will hopefully realise he can't persist with Farrell forever until he picks up some new skills. I have an inckling we'll see Ford on the bench at some point during the 6N. With Flood as well I suppose that'll mean Bowden at 10 for Tigers.

Well guys i have said all along THIS is going to be a massive season with regards to Englands development....so many Youngsters / fringe players could potentially come in as barely any position is set in stone.

Name a position and there are 3/4/5 guys who we will be watching with interest, and who we are looking to really show what they can do. We just need one per position to really push up to World Class level...

"I see Alred is working with him now..."

Well that's him fecked then.

I reckon Corbisiero is a nailed on starter, and has the potential to be world class. He's been outstanding for England for a while now, but subtly so. All he needs to do is incorporate more of a running game, and he'll be very close to complete. His scrummaging is excellent, and he gets through so much work in the loose- especially at the breakdown, where he and Cole are like extra flankers.

Hartley needs to find that missing physical dimension to his game if he wants to hold onto the 2 shirt.

Out of curiosity: Most England fans will be keeping an eye on the performances of the following this season. Just off the top of my head so no doubt ive missed some off...

1 Corbs, Marler, Mullan
2 Hartley, Youngs, Lindsay, George, Webber
3 Cole, Sinkler, Thomas, Brookes
4 Attwood, Deacon, Botha, Lawes, Garvey, Matthews, Slater,savage,Launcbury
5 Parling, Kitchener, Robson
6 Croft, Wood, Johnson, Haskell, Fearns, Gibson, Clark, Nuttall
7 Kvesic, Robshaw, Wallace, Abbott
8 Morgan, Crane, Waldrom, Gray, Vunipola..maybe even Yorke.

9 Youngs, Care, Spencer, Dickson, Simpson,
10 Flood, Burns, Ford, HEeathcote, Farrell
11 Wade, Thompstone, Benjamin, Short, Monye
12 Barritt, Turner hall, Allen, Twelvetrees, Daly
13 Tuilagi, Lowe, Trinder, Waldouck, Joseph
14 May, Ashton, Ojo
15 Foden, Brown, Goode, Miller

Good list GF. I'd think about adding Jake Abbott onto the list of 7s too. He's a quality player, and has been for a while. Good competition between him and Kvesic for the 7 shirt at Worcester.

Yea pretty comprehensive Geordie, i'd only really add Simpson to the 9 list. He could develop a bit more with the better pack Wasps will have this season.

Ollie Kohn is some way past it if you ask me. I think i'd rather look at someone like Savage at Gloucester to come through.

Interesting to see that Gaskell is still in the Saxons squad, can anyone tell me why? To me he has looked much too lightweight at either lock or 6 in most of the games i've seen him play.

I think Thompstone is probably a hell of a way off as well, I would put people like Marland Yarde ahead of him.

"I see Alred is working with him now..."

Well that's him fecked then.

I think Alred works with all the young kickers in the England system. I doubt very much Tigers would have hired him specially as they already have a good kicking coach in Paul Burke and Cockers slammed the England set up for messing about with Flood's kicking routine a year or two back when he went from being an 80% kicker to a 60% kicker over the course of the 6N.

It's through Addidas apparently!

Morgan will be under the coaching of his old Scarlets mentor Nigel Davies.
I expect Davies knows all about getting Morgan to optimal size / fitness.
He is a destructive first runner.

I expect Davies knows all about getting Morgan to optimal size / fitness

Really? It don't show when Morgan was working with Davies last season.

Morgan was a fat boy who gained fitness while at Scarlets. He was a destructive runner in an England shirt in RSA .. well for 60 minutes a match.
I for one, will be glad to have him at Kingsholm this season.

My reviewed expected Eng 23 for the AI's from Geordie Falcons list would be:

1. Corbs
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Palmer
5. Parling
6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Foden
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode

16. Marler
17. Youngs
18. PDJ
19. Launchberry/Lawes
20. Haskell
21. Care
22. Farrel/Ford
23. Joseph

Couple of points-
Palmer is in there as he played well on the summer tour and is experienced and better then Botha, I can't see Lancaster starting a newbie in the AI's.

Johnson and Croft are a tough call, Johnson currently has the shirt and did nothing wrong, Croft has far more experience and on form is one of Englands best players, but will he fit the backrow dynamic? Consensus is that Croft if fit will be the pick for 6 and I agree with that.

Brown seems unlucky after his injury that Goode had a solid cameo on the tour and has now apparently displaced him from the back up slot, not sure if I agree with it as Browns had a few seasons of top level displays while Goode has been average for Saracens and was hardly amazing in SA. Starting Goode does leave space for JJ though which is great because right now he seems a very good bench option it also potentially means that we wouldn't need a 10 on the bench as Goode could cover...

but will he fit the backrow dynamic?

The backrow worked as a better unit in the 6 nations and we only realised how much Croft offered to the lineout when he suddenly wasn't there. If he is fit (that might be a decisive 'if') then he will start.

I also think Goode may have done enough to start over Brown. Brown looked solid at the back but Goode added another dynamic to the backline, an element of creative ability we hadn't seen in the wider channels for England.

We'll more than likely see Goode start at FB I would say. He's a Lancaster favourite and really did himself justice in T3. He works well as an attacking 15 and also as a 'secondary five eigths' as the Kiwis would say.

I would also say that if Croft is fit he'll definitely start, he's one of the few players the management see as invaluable to England. Space has to be made for him if he's up to match fitness.

Lawes is the only one I would say who having been nailed on is now slipping away from that security. Continued injury issues have prevented him from reminding everyone that he is also a stunning prospect. Very destructive if combined with a Deacon type I would say.

Cheers Sam and CH, i've updated the team to show those changes.

Agree about Croft but not sure about Goode, we all seem to have happily forgotten about his seasons form which was to be honest completely forgettable. Brown though was a standout player throughout the season and looked good against SA before his injury, if he'd played in T3 i'm sure we'd all be saying the same thing that we are about Goode.

we all seem to have happily forgotten about his seasons form which was to be honest completely forgettable

Only player who showed any attacking intent for Sarries in the tail end of the season. He was Sarries best player by a country mile in the AP Semi Final where he created two excellent try scoring chances, the best of which Strettle knocked on over the line after a desperate Tuilagi tap tackle.

He did have a much quieter season than Brown but then again Brown was in the form side for most of the season where as Goode's Sarries were all over the place and playing very negatively at times. It's not really a judgement on Brown, it's more that Goode's playing style adds something to the England backline that they are currently lacking, creation.

Horses for courses- against Aus, I'd pick Foden as he quite likes playing them
Give Goode a run out to cut open the Pacific Islanders
Brown vs South Africa where the bigger physique and kicking game will come in useful

New Zealand, pick whoever impressed the most

Indeed, I wouldn't say that it's any denigration of Brown at all but he doesn't add that extra versatility that Goode does in attack as SAM points out.

Lest we forget that Lancaster loves players who cover more than one position and that I feel will be Goode's 'kicker' so to speak. And he can kick for goal.

I'm not so sure about the carousel approach to FB chocie CJ, whilst they all have their own merits I think we need to settle on a steady choice. Otherwise I could make a case for Armitage against SA and Abendanon against OZ.

I do think it's a but harsh on Foden though. Whilst he has had a couple of quiet games for England he's never really had a complete shocker and is still one of our top class players. I don't know how a permanent move to the wing will affect his confidence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19195208

Steven has retired!

Was the writing on the wall for him with the expansion to 23 on international benches? I still think he had something to offer if his scrummaging improved.

If England don't want Brown, I'd appreciate them not putting him in their squads and letting us have him back then

You still get paid for him and get to have him back, what's to moan about?

As our biggest issue next season is going to be squad depth, if one of our best players isn't being used by England then it would be good to have him available during AI periods

we dont really get paid for him though - PRL split the money evenly

Well if he's not 24th man my assumption would be that you'd get him back for games, as much to keep him fit as anything else.

Besides why can't we all pull together here and let's put country before club. I'm not going to start moaning about Morgan and the Saxons lot.

As long as he's doing something useful that's fine. It was when JTH was on the bench, for some inexplicable reason as he is not really a good option at all, in the 6N that was a bit frustrating

ChequeredJersey wrote:As long as he's doing something useful that's fine. It was when JTH was on the bench, for some inexplicable reason as he is not really a good option at all, in the 6N that was a bit frustrating

Now that I totally agree with. But I don't think i've ever been pleased with a Lancaster bench selection.

It all goes down to form if you ask me. I gave you the list i think we need to be watching...some as potential starters...some just looking for becoming club starters and future internationals....

But Goode v Foden v Brown / Marler v Corbs / Tuilagi v Lowe v Trinder v Joseph etc etc only happens if they are in form.

We pick the form player.

Glad to see Stevens retire...was never the same player after his ban...his scrummaging just looked weak. The bench is much stronger now we can havea LH and TH on it. Though who on earth our TH sub is...god only knows...